Commandments for Gentiles?

yedida · Jan 7, 2013

netzarim said:
My opinion is that the problem rests in English translations that choose to translate πίστις (pistis) almost exclusively into the English world "faith". πίστις, however, includes the meanings of "trust", "faithfulness", and "obedience", and these definitions are unfortunately obscured in most translations. πιστεύω (pisteuo, related verb form of πίστι&#962 is often translated as "believe", when it actually also includes the "faithfulness" and "obedience" implications of its root word πίστις.

A second issue relates to occasions where tenses and moods are not translated accurately, e.g. Mk 11:22:

καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς Ἕχετε πίστιν θεοῦ

The Ἕχετε is in the Greek present tense, which indicates something that is ongoing without reference to time, where as its imperative mood indicates that it must be done. This verse is translated "And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God" in the KJV. I propose that it should be clarified, e.g. "And Yehoshua answering saith unto them, You must-continue to have faithfulness in Elohim."

Another example, with the verb form:

Μὴ ταρασσέσθω ὑμῶν ἡ καρδία πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε - Jn 14:1

πιστεύετε is also in the Greek present tense. The KJV translates it "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me" whereas I propose that it should be clarified something along this line: "Let not your heart be continually-troubled: ye continually-must-believe/faithfulness/trusting/obedience in Elohim, continually-must-believe/faithfulness/trusting/obedience also in me."

There you go. Believing in and faith in are relatively passive nouns, whereas faithfulness in/to and trusting in are far on the active side, especially "faithfulness," that requires a reaction to an action.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 7, 2013

yedida said:
I stand by my previous post. Messiah spoke more of loving and obeying God than simply "believing in" Him. .He spoke more of faithfulness to God and His word than faith in himself

You're free to believe as you wish - but as said before, Yeshua is the standard...and He never advocated at any point that others who were Jewish would be universally saved due to heritage - and he minced no words on the issue when it came to the Gospel of placing faith in HIMSELF - He who Was God/the definition of God's Word.

In John 12:32; Jesus said, And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me. Why do you think Jesus repeated the word I twice? It was for emphasis on HIM being the center of all things and no other...as the Father ordained it. As Clarke Commentary said best:

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
I-- will draw all men unto me - After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles. It was one of the peculiar characteristics of the Messiah, that unto him should the gathering of the people be, Genesis 49:10. And probably our Lord refers to the prophecy, Isaiah 11:10, which peculiarly belonged to the Gentiles: "There shall be a root of Jesse which shall stand for an Ensign of the people, to it shall the Gentiles seek, and his rest shall be glorious." There is an allusion here to the ensigns or colors of commanders of regiments, elevated on high places, on long poles, that the people might see where the pavilion of their general was, and so flock to his standard.

Some of those in Jerusalem that day that heard these words of Jesus, may have been some of the very ones that responded to the gospel message preached by Peter on Pentecost, when he lifted up Jesus. On that day alone Jesus drew 3,000 to himself. (Acts 2:41) Preach the cross and according to the scriptures, Hell draw men, women, and children unto Him. Thats what they preached in the first century churchthe cross, the gospel, Jesus lifted up for all to see. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:47) That was the first century church. The church that was built on the Rock, Christ Jesus, lifted up for all to see.

That's basic in understanding the Gospel - as all things point to Christ, whom the Son gave to others to look

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichristdenying the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:21-23

1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1 John 2:22-24 1 John 2

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Gods one and only Son.
John 3:17-19

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for Gods wrath remains on them.

John 6:40
For my Fathers will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 6:39-41

John 14:9
Jesus answered: Dont you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father?
John 14:8-10

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
John 15:23-25 (

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 20:30-31

Luke 7:50
Jesus Anointed by a Sinful Woman

36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she isthat she is a sinner."

40Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.

41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[d] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

43Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgivenfor she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 7:49-50 ) Luke 7

The woman who anointed Jesus in Luke 7 - in addition to others like Luke 17:12-19 with the Samaritan man whose faith in Christ granted him salvation - are rather clear on the matter. Because of her

. In Rev. the word faith is used only 2-3 times, but He spoke incessantly of things done/not done, to do/not to do - obedience, faithfulness far outweigh mental agreement.

Revelation has the entire focus throughout being on what the Messiah did - both in judging the nations and in His mercy shown to those whom he redeemed. It was never matter of focusing on things done/none done - and to say such is to reduce what the actual text says repeatedly.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
Revelation 1:4-6

Revelation 5:8- Revelation 5
And they sang a new song, saying:
You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Revelation 14:2-4
And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

All of it going back to how NO ONE deserves the grace of God or the work he did for us in redeeming us as His people. As it is, "Mental agreement" is a reduction of what FAith is - and that is something that full study of the Word of God can help in avoiding. For faith was always connected to trust in the Messiah - with a lifestyle as evidence of change. Not mere actions alone - as even those who claimed to be righteous by their actions could be far from God when they were living in their hearts divorced from trusting in HIM alone as the way to salvation.

It is a false scenario trying to seperate faith in Christ from life before Christ - and that is why understanding the text is important.

John 10:25-27

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me

John 10:38
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

The entire reason behind why Christ was acting as he did was due to how the people in coming to him were asking for more proof for the wrong reasons.....hoping Christ would declare himself as Messiah for perverted reasons. The entire text of John 10:23-25 John 10 shows this in how the people--despite all he had done for them--still did not believe him. Yet even after that, he did not tell them they could never believe...

You're free to have the last word. This is mine on this subject

Indeed.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 7, 2013

yedida said:
He spoke incessantly of things done/not done, to do/not to do - obedience, faithfulness far outweigh mental agreement.
.

Most of the things being focused on were already discussed in addressment when it came to the ways people think that faith must mean simple mental agreement - even though it means action. This in conection with addressing the ways people claim that Christ focused on actions/faithfulness and yet simultaneously claim that all Jewish people from every age/era will be saved fully without qualification (due to the belief of GOD never rejecting at any point) - for those two things are mutually exclusive...and the latter (i.e. "All Jews will be saved by Hashem and they're good simply obeying the Mosaic Law!") is a form of Universalism (which is unbiblical..and, for that matter, not allowed for discussion on the boards).

2 Corinthians 7:9-11/2 Corinthians 7
Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret itI see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.

Worldy sorrow is always focused upon the individual, be it the one saying they see nothing wrong with their sin....or the other saying that they can atone for their sin by being pious/attempting to be righteous enough for the Lord (i.e. trying to clean onself up before coming to Yeshua rather than letting the Lord cleanse and seeing how he made cleansing possible by His work on the Cross/Shed blood). The latter can be one of the more deadlier since it often seems to be more "godly" than saying they don't care for anything since it can be a form of reverse pride....self-pity/attempt to base righteousness on the individual, which basicially says "Christ didn't suffer enough.."....and the latter can be dangerous since it can give a wrong impression of righteousness, like the two men who went to pray and the Lord noted that the former boasting of his works before the Lord was worthless

Luke 18
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector 9
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: God, I thank you that I am not like other peoplerobbers, evildoers, adulterersor even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

13 But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, God, have mercy on me, a sinner. 14 I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Before anything was done by man, the Lord took the first steps...and made his grace available to all:

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-3/ 1 John 2

Before anything was done on the parts of others in turning toward the Lord, grace was released---and those choosing to place their trust in the grace given are those able to walk in the fullness of that grace with being transformed into sons/daughters of the Lord.

Peter said it best:

2 Peter 1:10

Confirming Ones Calling and Election

3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

That said, with the grace the Lord has provided in sacrificing his Son, those trusting in it are to demonstrate the evidence of that via repentence of sins....as they truly see the things they used to do as not comparable to the ways of the Messiah

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (Matthew 4:17).

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance (Matthew 9:13).

Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes (Matthew 11:20-21).

And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish (Luke 13:2-5).

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth (Luke 15:7, 10).

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things (Luke 24:46-48).

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38).[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins (Acts 5:31).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." ( Acts 11:18 )[/FONT]

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, ( Acts 17:30 )

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. ( Acts 20:21 )[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. ( Acts 26:20 )[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. ( Acts 26:20 )[/FONT]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]With the repentence that comes, there's the other reality easily forgotten that repentence doesn't just mean one is sorry for their sins.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]The remorse, self-condemnation, anger or regret we feel when we make mistakes does not constitute Biblical repentance..for even the prisons are full of people who fall into this category since they are very sorry they got caught, but if released would just go out and do it again. Even among those that genuinely feel remorse for what they have done and want to make changes in their lives, there are few that exercise repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Going along with that, many others think that avoiding sin for fear of the consequences is repentance....but one can go about ajusting our life-style, demeanor, manner of speech and conduct so as to look better in the eyes of others, or to avoid consequences of socially unacceptable or illegal behavior does not mean we have necessarily undergone any real repentance. Essentially, doing that means that we may merely have changed from openly obvious sinners to hypocrites, which is worse. It's like o[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]beying traffic laws because tickets are very expensive, or avoiding shoplifting because we could be badly embarrassed if we were caught rather than doing so because we hate those things the way the Lord does.[/FONT]

[/FONT]__________________

ananda · Jan 7, 2013

Easy G (G²);62133551 said:
You're free to believe as you wish - but as said before, Yeshua is the standard...and He never advocated at any point that others who were Jewish would be universally saved due to heritage - and he minced no words on the issue when it came to the Gospel of placing faith in HIMSELF - He who Was God/the definition of God's Word ...
48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 7:49-50 ) Luke 7

The woman who anointed Jesus in Luke 7 - in addition to others like Luke 17:12-19 with the Samaritan man whose faith in Christ granted him salvation - are rather clear on the matter.

My alternate translations of some of your selected verses which takes into account tenses and moods:

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that continually-denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that continually-denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever continually-denieth the Son, the same continually-hath not the Father: [(but) he that continually-acknowledgeth/agree/confess/profess/celebrate the Son continually-hath the Father also]

Jn 3:18 He that continually-believeth/faithful/trusting/obedient on him is not condemned: but he that continually-believeth/faithful/trusting/obedient not is condemned already, because he hath not continually-believed/faithful/trusting/obedient in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 3:36 He that continually-believeth/faithful/trusting/obedient on the Son continually-hath everlasting life: and he that continually-disobedience(ἀπειθῶ&#957

on the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God continually-abideth on him.

Jn 6:40 And this continually-is the will of him that sent me, that every one which continually-seeth the Son, and continually-believeth/faithful/trusting/obedient on him, may-perhaps have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 20:31 But these have been written, that ye might-possibly-trust that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that continually-believing/faithful/trusting/obedient ye might-possibly have life through his name.

Lk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith/faithfulness/trust/obedience hath saved thee; go in peace.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 7, 2013

netzarim said:
My alternate translations of some of your selected verses which takes into account tenses and moods:

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that continually-denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that continually-denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever continually-denieth the Son, the same continually-hath not the Father: [(but) he that continually-acknowledgeth/agree/confess/profess/celebrate the Son continually-hath the Father also]

Jn 3:18 He that continually-believeth/faithful/trusting/obedient on him is not condemned: but he that continually-believeth/faithful/trusting/obedient not is condemned already, because he hath not continually-believed/faithful/trusting/obedient in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 3:36 He that continually-believeth/faithful/trusting/obedient on the Son continually-hath everlasting life: and he that continually-disobedience(ἀπειθῶ&#957 on the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God continually-abideth on him.

Jn 6:40 And this continually-is the will of him that sent me, that every one which continually-seeth the Son, and continually-believeth/faithful/trusting/obedient on him, may-perhaps have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 20:31 But these have been written, that ye might-possibly-trust that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that continually-believing/faithful/trusting/obedient ye might-possibly have life through his name.

Lk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith/faithfulness/trust/obedience hath saved thee; go in peace.

Indeed - although there are other translations that do not agree with the ones you provided and that has been discussed before. That said, none of what was noted really addresses the fact of what has been said when it comes to the fact that ACTIVE trusting in the Lord - be it for salvation in faith in Him (as our salvation is NOT by our works and solely a free gift of God according to Ephesians 2:8-9 - alongside Romans 3 and Romans 4) or salvation expressed in gratitutde evidenced by our works...per Romans 12:1-3.

It was always a matter of the work of Christ in choosing to move us/touch us first before we did anything:

Titus 3
Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

Romans 3:4

No One Is Righteous

9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b]
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

This goes back to the earlier claims that ALL Jews will be saved regardless (based on an interpretation of what Paul said in Romans 11) - and that is contradictory in light of what Christ/the whole of scripture note repeatedly when it comes to what Christ commanded of others - Jew and Gentile alike - in either trusting in Him or perishing. There was never anything close to Universalism /Universal Salvation for all Jews and Hebrews but Gentiles being called to work out their salvation as they trust in Him

ananda · Jan 7, 2013

Easy G (G²);62133700 said:
Indeed - although there are other translations that do not agree with the ones you provided and that has been discussed before.

I don't believe there is much of a dispute on the Greek meanings in light of their verb tenses and moods. Whether or not translators choose to bring over the full meaning of the original to the target language is another question altogether.

Jn 3:36 undoubtedly states that those who are continually disobedient will not see life (as contrasted with those who are continually faithful & obedient).

salvation in faith in Him (as our salvation is NOT by our works and solely a free gift of God according to Ephesians 2:8-9 - alongside Romans 3 and Romans 4) or salvation expressed in gratitutde evidenced by our works...per Romans 12:1-3. ... Titus 3 ... Romans 3:4

I choose to focus on what Messiah Himself was recorded has said. And, as I cannot address the works of Paul here in this forum, you can have the last word.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 7, 2013

netzarim said:
I don't believe there is much of a dispute on the Greek meanings in light of their verb tenses and moods. Whether or not translators choose to bring over the full meaning of the original to the target language is another question altogether..

Understanding verb tenses in how they were interpreted in the culture makes a world of differnece - as someone can see a translation where there's differing options of vebr tenses/moods but the idea behind it means differntly than how it is understood today - like seeing the phrase "He was so hot "and assuming it means the author felt someone was not cold when the context in culture meant one was "hot" in the sense of attractive..as the word would've been commonly used during the time. When Jewish believers from the 1st century note that "believing in the name of Christ" is clearly meant to imply not trusting in onself for salvation/merit and instead seeing the finished work of Christ - it makes sense how they interpreted it...and that also goes for how they explained clearly what they understood when they heard the words of Christ - as language can change and with that meanings.

Jn 3:36 undoubtedly states that those who are continually disobedient will not see life (as contrasted with those who are continually faithful & obedient).

Faithfulness and obediance go back to the former thought of acknowleding one CANNOT stand on their own righteousness as a means of justification before the Lord for salvation - and will need His work which was done first in order to truly do as He desires. He is always the starting point.

I choose to focus on what Messiah Himself was recorded has said.

Amen - as his words are directly in line with what the apostles, from Peter to Paul noted.

John 3:14-16

14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[a] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.[b]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for Gods wrath remains on them.
John 3:35-36 /John 3

John 5:4
19 Jesus gave them this answer: Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24 Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come outthose who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.................You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35 John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
36 I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finishthe very works that I am doingtestify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41 I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Fathers name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[d]?

45 But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?

John 5:24
Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:23-25

John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.
John 6:26-28

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?
John 11:24-26

John 12:44
Then Jesus cried out, Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
John 12:43-45 / John 12

John 12:46
I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
John 12:45-47 / John 12

John n 14:11
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
John 14:10-12 /John 14

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 20:30-31

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:29-31

yedida · Jan 7, 2013

Easy G (G²);62133940 said:
...Amen - as his words are directly in line with what the apostles, from Peter to Paul noted....

Isn't that a little bit reversed? HIS words line up with Peter, Paul, therefore, we obey what He said? Oh my....

visionary · Jan 7, 2013

yedida said:
Isn't that a little bit reversed? HIS words line up with Peter, Paul, therefore, we obey what He said? Oh my....

ohhh my.. what just flew over head?? lol

mishkan · Jan 7, 2013

yedida said:
Isn't that a little bit reversed? HIS words line up with Peter, Paul, therefore, we obey what He said? Oh my....

I'm having this very discussion in a FB group right now. I am saying that we should read The Book from the beginning to the end in order to get a proper grasp on what is said, in its context and relevant to who knows what first.

Reading later statements, loading them with whatever interpretations we like, and then shoe-horning that understanding into the earlier texts... is a completely invalid technique for properly understanding a collection of historical writings like the Bible.

Yahudim · Jan 7, 2013

yedida said:
Isn't that a little bit reversed? HIS words line up with Peter, Paul, therefore, we obey what He said? Oh my....

I know, I know. :hug:

Let's review commandments for Gentiles too.

Go clean your room!
Don't fidget when I'm talking to you!
Close the door; were you raised in a barn?
Quit tracking dirt across my nice clean floor!
Tell me where you have been right now!
Wait right there until your father get's home; then your gonna get it.

Oh! You mean scriptural commandments! Well, that depends on the individual, doesn't it. Y'know, male, female, farmer, merchant, in the land, out...

Hey Yedida, haven't we covered this before? :doh:

mishkan · Jan 7, 2013

talmidim said:
I know, I know.
.
.
.
Oh! You mean scriptural commandments! Well, that depends on the individual, doesn't it. Y'know, male, female, farmer, merchant, in the land, out...

Hey Yedida, haven't we covered this before?

Yep. It has been covered many times... both in this forum and in many others. I am always confused as to why this seems so difficult for some.

yedida · Jan 7, 2013

mishkan said:
Yep. It has been covered many times... both in this forum and in many others. I am always confused as to why this seems so difficult for some.

It does get old doesn't it? But then we never know who may be reading this thread as their first encounter with the fact that Yeshua taught Torah, so we keep at it.

mishkan · Jan 7, 2013

yedida said:
It does get old doesn't it? But then we never know who may be reading this thread as their first encounter with the fact that Yeshua taught Torah, so we keep at it.

Can't argue with that!

Gxg (G²) · Jan 7, 2013

yedida said:
Isn't that a little bit reversed? HIS words line up with Peter, Paul, therefore, we obey what He said?

Seeing that they are apostles (if you believe such) commissioned by Christ/Yeshua to lead the Church and set the examples, it is significant when they are in connection with Yeshua - and seeing that it was already said that Yeshua is the one who takes precedence, with all others confirming/agreeing with what He noted, it's not a matter of "reversal"...unless, of course, one chooses to take it that way

In practical example:

John 20:21-23/John 20
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Matthew 16:17-19/ Matthew 16
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.”

Either one believes the Lord gave leadership of the early body of believers to the apostles - or they don't - but being Messianic involves studying their example and what CHrist directly noted of them (one of the foundational things behind why it was significant that they chose Mattias in Acts 1 when they did and often pronounced judgement on those not following their directives - from Acts 8 with Simon the SOrcerror to Acts 5 with Annaias and Saphria and others). People often throw out a false scenario when people point to the example of the Apostles in claiming "So you think Yeshua's not DOMINANT??!!" (argument via reduction/ridicule by taking what was said and reducing it in the extreme to what was not discussed) - but they do not understand the basic concept of interpretation...that the Lord, who reigns/set the rules, has jurisdiction as the Owner to set up whoever He wishes to stand guard/interpret what He said in connection with what He instructed. People should read from beginning to end in order to understand what's said - but far too often is it the case that people START/end from the beginning and forget to look at what Christ said in the later development.....and thus, they're inconsistent with the concepts He taught.

mishkan said:
Reading later statements, loading them with whatever interpretations we like, and then shoe-horning that understanding into the earlier texts... is a completely invalid technique for properly understanding a collection of historical writings like the Bible.

This is something that also works in reverse when it comes to reading from the beginning and reading things into it that the Jewish/Hebrew worldview NEVER accepted or held central - and it happens so often that it's no surprise a lot of folks from Judaism don't really want what believers had when it comes to making claims divorced from what the text actually said/culture explained. This has happened already within this thread when it comes to things akin to universalism for Jewish people because folks started in Romans 11 (where Paul says all men will be saved) - went to select scriptures where God said he'd not divorce his people in the OT - and then make a doctrine saying that God will never forsake anyone Jewish to the fate of unbelievers bound for eternity without him. The same also happens when it comes to believers who look at the concept of "There shall be one law for all" - but in the desire to serve Israel, assume that being Israel-focused means advocating an ideology that Gentiles were meant to be the same as Jews at every point of instruction (despite where the Torah already laid out distinctions)...and then augmenting this based on what they see in Ephesians 2-3 with the One New Man.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 7, 2013

yedida said:
we never know who may be reading this thread as their first encounter with the fact that Yeshua taught Torah, so we keep at it.

Plenty actually read it (for a long time ) - and plenty actually take note of how much is taught in the name of "This is TOrah" that never was in line with TOrah...and thus, be it in PM or openly on the boards or in email, they share how much they didn't really dig what was said. Many of them being Jewish believers whom Messianic Judaism was developed for when it came to outreach to the Jewish people/making them feel the Torah the Lord gave them was honored as it was developed. ..and at times had some very sour experiences. Happens all the time, especially with others here who experienced that - went to other forums, and then noted where they got burned for not agreeing with a dominant view of Messianic Gentiles (more so from the groups with CTOMC than others) who said Jews/Gentiles were meant to be the same in all things or fell in line with many of the things that others disagree with within Messianic Judaism at large.
.

It really isn't hidden - nor subtle - and it's something numerous posters/seekers have often noted as a reason why certain things are not considered when others protest. They, as Jewish believers, wish to see Jewish culture lived out and not have any zeal for Hebrews/Israel lead to things they weren't even taught growing up in Judaism (like the idea that the Lord would never completely reject a Hebrew for rebelling against him or that all Gentiles were meant to be as the Jews for approval) - and it tends to get even more negative for them paticularly when others do not deal with the Torah as it was or say differently elsewhere than what's said here without ever dealing with the Torah (i.e. inviting others on this forum to other forums in what can be a matter of trying to "win" people like converts as many counter-missionaries do.. and trying to be quiet on it so that people don't know rather than placing any links out since that'd be perceived as self-serving, at best, and against the rules at CF).

That's a side issue, of course - and Contra as well as others have done a good job in noting how some people still try to push the line with Torah - despite what Jewish believers who began the movement have said since the early days - and it's why the mods had to say things on it/become aware - including taking seriously in any type of attempt at saying one thing here but differently elsewhere in attempt to counter/misrpresent whatever is said on this board of CF and what Messianic Judaism at large has noted( against the rules). Thankfully, people with a heart for truth know what to avoid and what to study when they take time to study scripture faithfully and see what other Jewish believers in Messiah are living out - and what was said historically

.

ananda · Jan 7, 2013

Everything should be judged,interpreted, and conformed to what Torah and Messiah said. What Torah and Messiah said should not be judged,re-interpreted, and conformed to what apostle/dr/pastor/professor x,y, or z said.

Who is greater, the servant or the Master? Hint: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither the apostolos greater than he that sent him." Jn 13:16

If there is an apparent disagreement between what Messiah and Apostle X said, then I suggest that our understanding of what Apostle X said is wrong. Or, potentially the record was wrong, or Apostle X was wrong. (Infallibility on all things was not guaranteed to any of the apostles; after all, they are all simply sinful men in need of a Savior.)

Gxg (G²) · Jan 7, 2013

netzarim said:
Everything should be judged,interpreted, and conformed to what Torah and Messiah said. .)

Torah being the instructions that God laid down collectively - although many zone in on Mosaic Torah and neglect the rest of what the Lord said, BEFORE and AFTER it since the Lord has given differing concepts in differing ages and regulated certain things from one era to one group while speaking on where he asked for it to be different in another.

The Messiah takes precedence as He is the focus.

What Torah and Messiah said should not be judged,re-interpreted, and conformed to what apostle/dr/pastor/professor x,y, or z said.

Not according to what Yeshua did rather plainly...

In practical example:

John 20:21-23/John 20
Again Jesus said, Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you. 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyones sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

Matthew 16:17-19/ Matthew 16
They replied, Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.
15 But what about you? he asked. Who do you say I am?
16 Simon Peter answered, You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.
17 Jesus replied, Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.

As said before, one either one believes the Lord gave leadership of the early body of believers to the apostles - or they don't - as that's behind why it was significant that they chose Mattias in Acts 1 when they did and often pronounced judgement on those not following their directives - from Acts 8 with Simon the SOrcerror to Acts 5 with Annaias and Saphria a..Paul cursing the sorcerror in Acts 13 or doing miracles in Acts 14 to confirm the Word of the Lord.

Who is greater, the servant or the Master? Hint: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither the apostolos greater than he that sent him." Jn 13:16

Little hint, Bruh, if choosing to read further

-

John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his masters business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
John 15:14-16 ) John 15

Yeshua sought to bring others up to His level on multiple occassions - and with His own, he gave them authority to do things in HIS name because they were his servants. It's like a boss who has a company and then makes an employee a steward - with freedom on things that others did not have previously.....and anyone challenging that in saying "He thinks he's better than the boss!!" would actually be dishonoring the BOSS who gave His servant authority.

If there is an apparent disagreement between what Messiah and Apostle X said, then I suggest that our understanding of what Apostle X said is wrong. Or, potentially the record was wrong, or Apostle X was wrong. (Infallibility on all things was not guaranteed to any of the apostles; after all, they are all simply sinful men in need of a Savior

Many times, people end up reading "error" into things said by the apostles due to failing to understand properly what the Messiah said - and on the issue, I'd suggest that others (if seeing something in the Epistles that seems like an inconsistency with Christ) consider reviewing what Yeshua said - getting all the facts and considering that their own understanding may be off a bit.

yedida · Jan 7, 2013

Easy G (G²);62134245 said:
Seeing that they are apostles (if you believe such) commissioned by Christ/Yeshua to lead the Church and set the examples, it is significant when they are in connection with Yeshua - and seeing that it was already said that Yeshua is the one who takes precedence, with all others confirming/agreeing with what He noted, it's not a matter of "reversal"...unless, of course, one chooses to take it that way

In practical example:

John 20:21-23/John 20
Again Jesus said, Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you. 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyones sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

Matthew 16:17-19/ Matthew 16
They replied, Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.
15 But what about you? he asked. Who do you say I am?
16 Simon Peter answered, You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.
17 Jesus replied, Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.

Either one believes the Lord gave leadership of the early body of believers to the apostles - or they don't - but being Messianic involves studying their example and what CHrist directly noted of them (one of the foundational things behind why it was significant that they chose Mattias in Acts 1 when they did and often pronounced judgement on those not following their directives - from Acts 8 with Simon the SOrcerror to Acts 5 with Annaias and Saphria and others). People often throw out a false scenario when people point to the example of the Apostles in claiming "So you think Yeshua's not DOMINANT??!!" (argument via reduction/ridicule by taking what was said and reducing it in the extreme to what was not discussed) - but they do not understand the basic concept of interpretation...that the Lord, who reigns/set the rules, has jurisdiction as the Owner to set up whoever He wishes to stand guard/interpret what He said in connection with what He instructed. People should read from beginning to end in order to understand what's said - but far too often is it the case that people START/end from the beginning and forget to look at what Christ said in the later development.....and thus, they're inconsistent with the concepts He taught.

This is something that also works in reverse when it comes to reading from the beginning and reading things into it that the Jewish/Hebrew worldview NEVER accepted or held central - and it happens so often that it's no surprise a lot of folks from Judaism don't really want what believers had when it comes to making claims divorced from what the text actually said/culture explained. This has happened already within this thread when it comes to things akin to universalism for Jewish people because folks started in Romans 11 (where Paul says all men will be saved) - went to select scriptures where God said he'd not divorce his people in the OT - and then make a doctrine saying that God will never forsake anyone Jewish to the fate of unbelievers bound for eternity without him. The same also happens when it comes to believers who look at the concept of "There shall be one law for all" - but in the desire to serve Israel, assume that being Israel-focused means advocating an ideology that Gentiles were meant to be the same as Jews at every point of instruction (despite where the Torah already laid out distinctions)...and then augmenting this based on what they see in Ephesians 2-3 with the One New Man.

I was just quoting your exact words that said, and I quote again by c/p "...as his words are directly in line with what the apostles, from Peter to Paul noted...." You did indeed switch it around, and said that we obey Yeshua because His words line up with what Peter and Paul and other apostles say. Can you not own it?

Avodat · Jan 7, 2013

netzarim said:
Everything should be judged,interpreted, and conformed to what Torah and Messiah said. What Torah and Messiah said should not be judged,re-interpreted, and conformed to what apostle/dr/pastor/professor x,y, or z said.

Who is greater, the servant or the Master? Hint: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither the apostolos greater than he that sent him." Jn 13:16

If there is an apparent disagreement between what Messiah and Apostle X said, then I suggest that our understanding of what Apostle X said is wrong. Or, potentially the record was wrong, or Apostle X was wrong. (Infallibility on all things was not guaranteed to any of the apostles; after all, they are all simply sinful men in need of a Savior.)

Let's not fool ourselves - no one can be truly objective about anything. We all read The Book with our own baggage colouring what we understand it to say at any given point. If we knew, and understood, The Book as well as half of those on here think they do, there wouldn't be debate about anything. As it is, we do not, we all continue to learn whether we are academics or not; no sensible person would ever suggest that learning ends with a few letters before your name, after (or both), whatever they may be. However, logic tells us that those who have devoted many years to studying the Word probably do have a good start on those who haven't, provided they, in turn, have learned from reputable teachers / academic institutions.

For some reason I cannot understand many people on here look in awe and wonder at anyone who has 'Dr' or 'Professor' in front of their name - mostly from Universities that are hardly known in the world rating of such places of learning. Provided they have posted something on the internet somewhere and may have written a book that has been published by an unknown publisher, they must be the epitomy of academic achievement, to be wheeeled out as the final word on any given part of Scripture. G_d isn't permitted to disagree with them!

Commandments for Gentiles?

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Early Buddhist

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Early Buddhist

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

There's room for YOU in the Mishkan!

Y'shua HaMoshiach Messianic

There's room for YOU in the Mishkan!

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

There's room for YOU in the Mishkan!

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Early Buddhist

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

Contending for Biblical truth

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