Gay Marriage Pioneer

zaida

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Michie - You know what, in all this discussion, I forgot about the original priest who was being discussed - so, your point taken!

Warrior - I see your point about marriages only declared valid (or not) by Bishops, but that with same sex unions, its far more clear cut. However, I don't really agree that states only validate marriage for pro-creation purposes. I would think that historically of course that is one of the states main concerns - stability in families, etc. But I don't think its the "only" reason, certainly not in modern times, where I think most people acknowledge that often a marriage takes place for two people to promise life long unity an commitment (and if children result from that, great). I recognize thats not the Church's stance, but Im still thinking about state vs religious marriages, and that there can be two standards. I suppose the very original post was not about this, and Ive digressed. Its just a topic of great interest to me, given I have family and friends who are gay (in both the US and the UK) and who feel greatly impacted by the debate.
 
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KatherineS

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Warrior - I see your point about marriages only declared valid (or not) by Bishops,


It is not true that only Bishops can declare a marriage valid. A marriage is presumed valid at the wedding. A tribunal has the duty of reviewing a reconsideration, but the presumption of validity of the first marriage is there.
 
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Genersis

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So - on to another more 'real' subject.

Gay unions are against nature [which was made by God] and against God - so even in the legal definition - they do nothing to strengthen a nation.

The odds of a married man and woman not having children - fairly low. [sterility is usually something they seek to overcome]
Odds of gay unions having children - 100% impossible. By definition - each of the couple participates in that child's DNA.
Explain why children being biologically related to their parents is so important?
Oh, sorry, I mean "parents".

Those darn homosexuals weakening the great nation.
:p
Nations are weakened by lack of offspring...so it does not help economically or militarily. [which are the strength marks of a country]
Populations fluctuate.
Keeping same-sex marriage unrecognised will do NOTHING to change how many children people are having.
How this gets mentioned time and again as if it means something is bewildering.
'Gay marriage' does not exist.
Marriage is to procreate - and why states recognize marriage in the 1st place - for future generations and to benefit the children of the union.
In your theology maybe. A marriage, in the civil sense, is the legal recognition of a relationship, used by governments in taxing, property and monetary ownership rights.
I'm don't know about the US, but here in the UK, you tend not to get special tax credits/benefits and the like to raise children, until, you know, you actually HAVE children.

You wont be getting any of that from gay partners. Nada - zilch.
And?
Should the government judge all marriages on governmental/societal gain?

Argument is moot.
What argument?
The only one put forward is by you, against. And I'd have to agree.
 
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StThomasMore

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Richard Adams Dead: Gay Marriage Pioneer Married by Rev. Robert Sirico


Richard Adams, who used both the altar and the courtroom to help begin the push for gay marriage four decades before it reached the center of the national consciousness, has died, his attorney said Sunday.
Adams and his partner, Tony Sullivan, were granted a marriage license in 1975, but for years fought in vain to see it recognized by governments.

They were married in Denver by the Rev. Robert Sirico, now head of the conservative Action Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty. Their marriage was not recognized by the government. Father Sirico now serves as a spokesman for private market captialism and religious liberty.

robert-sirico.jpg

I hope he isn't burning in hell right now. From the sources it seems he was a deviant reprobate.
 
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cathoaholicliz

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Really? Is that a rule?

I don't know for sure if it is in the catechism but its useless to speculate on who is in hell. Our business is on Earth, evangelizing and believing and all that jazz.:thumbsup:

But I doubt it is a mortal sin to wonder on who may be in hell or in heaven

If it is someone can correct me.

But it for darn sure is a mortal sin to participate in sexual immorality and its sinful to condone sinful actions.
 
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Tallguy88

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AvilaSurfer said:
Really? Is that a rule?

It's my understanding that the" judge not..." refers specifically to judging someone to damnation. But I was more concerned with how st Thomas Moore insinuated that the man was in hell while calling him a degenerate. The proper catholic thing to do would be to pray for him.
 
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cathoaholicliz

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I actually did not even see the degenerate comment. I did go back and reread his comment. I thought he was simply saying "I hope he is not in hell" which i think that's proper is to hope someone is not in hell.

Many private revelations reveal that many people go to hell, especially those we consider holy like priests.
 
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StThomasMore

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We're not supposed to speculate about who's in hell.

We can speculate and bring up possibilities and chances. Ratios of success. By their fruits they will be known.


the early church fathers did it all the time.

Dante's Inferno is a whole book of speculation of whos in hell, lol.
 
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StThomasMore

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It's my understanding that the" judge not..." refers specifically to judging someone to damnation. But I was more concerned with how st Thomas Moore insinuated that the man was in hell while calling him a degenerate. The proper catholic thing to do would be to pray for him.


No, "judge not" is talking about hypocrisy. Such as an adulterer telling others not to commit adultery, or a murderer telling others not to murder.

Maybe degenerate wasn't the right word? The bible uses sodomite, abusers of mankind, effeminate, fornicator, abomination.

An abominable, sodomite, fornicator? If just going by the bibles explanation of actions. The fact that he did it under the confines of an ecclesiastical group even makes it more awful. And then tried to use that platform to attack marriage.
 
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Antigone

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No, "judge not" is talking about hypocrisy. Such as an adulterer telling others not to commit adultery, or a murderer telling others not to murder.

That is a really strange comparison.

And a murderer telling others not to murder isn't necessarily hypocritcal. If he is truly sorry and wants to tell others about how terrible his life has become since, why should that be a bad thing?
 
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AvilaSurfer

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How would we know that? People who die can't tell where they went.
People who die most definitely know where they went. Even if you left out a word and meant to say "can't tell us where they went", that's not entirely true.
 
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StThomasMore

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That is a really strange comparison.

And a murderer telling others not to murder isn't necessarily hypocritcal. If he is truly sorry and wants to tell others about how terrible his life has become since, why should that be a bad thing?

Jesus is talking about rash hypocritical judgement

you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal?You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?- Romans Chapter 2, 20:23

There is a difference between righteous judgement on something one knows to be sinful, verses a rash unwarranted judgement.He does not prohibit the judgment of the church, through its officers, upon those who walk disorderly, for both he and the apostles have enjoined this. He does not forbid those private judgments that we are compelled to form the wrong-doers, for he himself tell us that we are to judge men by their fruits shown in Mt 7:15-20..What he designs to prohibit is rash, uncharitable judgments, a fault-finding spirit, a disposition to condemn without examination of charges.
 
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WarriorAngel

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It is not true that only Bishops can declare a marriage valid. A marriage is presumed valid at the wedding. A tribunal has the duty of reviewing a reconsideration, but the presumption of validity of the first marriage is there.

Jane Wyman said it was a Hollywood marriage.
That means Hollywood put them together and had them marry. Thats what they did back then.

It was never a valid form.
Jane said as much - so obviously it was annulled in private after she converted.
 
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