Good place to restate the plan going forward which should help right?
With regard to Torah topics the one teaching should be teaching Torah positive not non observance and definitely not anti Torah doctrine
That should help tremendously
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Messianic Judaism?
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With regard to Torah topics the one teaching should be teaching Torah positive not non observance and definitely not anti Torah doctrine
That should help tremendously
Does that also mean that you do not see circumcision before Abraham? Does that mean you do not see circumcision isolated to just the Jews? So what about the practice that Jews were also required to circumcise all household members, including slaves? [Gen 17:12-14]
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I only see what I see in scripture and a covenant was made with Abraham and his descendants in Isaac and Jacob and it started at Gen 17 and the 'token' of that covenant was circumcising male child on the 8th day. We call it Bris Milah today.
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... I agree, it is only mentioned in scripture at the time of Abraham for starters of this covenant.
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Gen 17:10
This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised. י. זֹאת בְּרִיתִי אֲשֶׁר תִּשְׁמְרוּ בֵּינִי וּבֵינֵיכֶם וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ הִמּוֹל לָכֶם כָּל זָכָר:
Pertains to Abraham's SEED.
Rashi says; Here Scripture repeated it [the commandment to circumcise a slave born in the house;] but did not state [that it is to be] on the eighth day, to teach you that there is a slave born in the house who is circumcised after eight days [other editions: at the age of one day], as is delineated in Tractate Shabbath (135b).
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Ok well it looks like we may be done here I can see the many rabbit trails developing and mind you I don't mind at all especially seeing how well you all are getting on in here
I'm going to leave you be but please PM me if you need to other wise we will leave it at what the sop states that many have differing levels if Torah observance and that's ok but MJ is Torah positive and no one with no observance and certainly folks with anti Torah views should not be espousing those views here..... You wouldn't go to any denomination and try to tell folks they need to give up their traditions and observances and so we cannot allow that here too
About flaming remember to assume things about folks makes a furry horse like animal out of you and me
so refrain from assuming and ask questions of each other.... Ask qualifying and clarifying questions .... Qualifying before you assume the worst and clarifying if someone does assume something wrong about you.And also remember that if you first find and even hunt for something you can agree with and mention ,comment and even have a good discussion on that topic first , the bond of trust will be with both of you going into a hair raising argument and chances are if your feeling tempted to flame your brother it will diminish that temptation
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Lovely, but you end out the quote too soon:
Bereisheet/Genesis 17:11-13 said:
This passage clearly indicates that circumcision was not restricted to Abraham and his descendants. It is for anyone living within Abraham's sphere of influence.
Rashi tries to quibble, but the text strikes me as pretty plain.
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mishkan said:
True by 'law' a purchased slave became a family member therefore an infant born to a purchased slave became a family member. Unlike a bond servant being a servant for a period of time.
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Thanks for sharing - as those are excellent suggestions/ideas for interaction and they do a lot for promoting true unity of the Faith in MessiahI can see the many rabbit trails developing and mind you I don't mind at all especially seeing how well you all are getting on in here
I'm going to leave you be but please PM me if you need to other wise we will leave it at what the sop states that many have differing levels if Torah observance and that's ok but MJ is Torah positive and no one with no observance and certainly folks with anti Torah views should not be espousing those views here..... You wouldn't go to any denomination and try to tell folks they need to give up their traditions and observances and so we cannot allow that here too
About flaming remember to assume things about folks makes a furry horse like animal out of you and me
And also remember that if you first find and even hunt for something you can agree with and mention ,comment and even have a good discussion on that first , the bond of trust will be with both of you going into a hair raising argument and chances if you feeling tempted to flame your brother will diminish
No disrepect intended - as I read the rule originally about not quoting people's stuff (from #202 ) but understood it to mean that one shouldn't quote things from other websites to make a case (as in posting material/resources like an article on Torah Observance ) when making a case for how we personally feel on the issue. It did not seem at the time to mean that one could not quote others whom they were in agreement with - as others on all sides have been doing that for some time and making commentary in support of one another. Additionally, sincerly, I was not certain as to whether you meant don't quote anyone (something that all others are doing/have been from the beginning ) or not quoting others making a comment to you directly (which is again something others have done since the request in the beginning - specifically from others disagreeing with what Contra/other like-minded people alongside myself feel). If you were speaking in general, that makes sense - but if singling people out, I don't really see why nothing was done that was unique to one individual. Just saying..
But again, I can understand your request now that you clarified it and thank you for bringing it to my attention
To be clear, on what was said, I'm concerned with observing/do observed to the best of my ability as do others and that has been noted repeatedly - be it by myself or others. Sincerly, don't know where you got the "no observance" part from as that's not present at any point.
Understood and I agree that there has already been consensus on how things should go. Thank goodness for that.
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Gotta also keep in mind that His grace makes the commands of positive impact
For some good resources on the subject, from a real Messianic perspective, one can either go online/investigate the articles entitled the following:
The grace of the Lord is what makes following the Torah possible....and the Torah was always meant to point to where we needed grace. Both work in harmony with one another---but to deny grace is to deny the Torah's promises ( Acts 5:30-32 , Acts 3:18-20 , Acts 11:17-19, Acts 20:20-22 , Acts 26:17-19 , Ephesians 1:6-8 , Colossians 1:13-15, etc)---and the grace that Messiah offers is truly amazing...
Acts 13:37-39
37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:16-18 / John 1
John 1:16-18 / John 1
Acts 13:43
When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
Acts 20:24
However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given methe task of testifying to the good news of Gods grace.
Acts 20:23-25
Acts 20:23-25
Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did Gods grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Romans 5:14-16
Romans 5:14-16
1 Corinthians 1:4
[ Thanksgiving ] I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of themyet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
1 Corinthians 15:9-11
1 Corinthians 15:9-11
2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
2 Corinthians 13:13-14
2 Corinthians 13:13-14
Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!
Galatians 2:20-21
Galatians 2:20-21
Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise
Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of Gods grace
Ephesians 1:6-8
Ephesians 1:6-8
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. . 12 It teaches us to say No to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hopethe appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
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Great point - as one can ask questions on things they're honestly wrestling with or not really seeing fully in a text in sincerity and yet not be trying to make a case that says others cannot believe in such/are wrong to do so. For we all must be fully convinced in our own minds in our study of truth/concepts - and there are a number of things all of us on the boards have either wrestled with...or are still wrestling with...
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For myself, I still find it intriguing that circumcision was of such importance when it was something that was practiced by the nations at large long before the Lord came to Abraham/asked for it.
The history of circumcision BEFORE Abraham is significant, especially when considering the spirtual purposes it was done for apart from the Lord. ...and plenty of scholars have noted the vast history of circumcision that has been around in the Middle East long before Genesis 17. Whereas it was a rite of obligation amongst Jews., the practice has a long history in the ancient Middle East and is closely related to the rituals dedicated to ancient gods and goddesses of fertility. In example, the ancient Mesopotamians had festivals where the testicles of a young boy was cut off and dedicated to the fertility goddess.and for more, one can go online/invesitigate the following:
- "History of Circumcision "
- "History of Circumcision - CIRP"
- ":
Culture of IRAN |:: The History of Circumcision in Iran" - "Chronology of the foreskin and circumcision - History of Circumcision"
On where it was noted how other nations outside of Israel practiced circumcison---including those who were enemies of Israel--one can go to Jer 9:25-26 and Ezekiel 32:29. Jeremiah 9:25-26 is the most descriptive in discussing other nations that were only circumcised in the flesh. Circumcision went back to the time of Abraham and was practiced by pagan nations, but not as a sign of a covenant with God.
Some did so for health reasons, whereas others had their own symbolisms to go with the act. In Jeremiah's day, by the time he arrived on the scene, the Israelities had forgotten the spiritual significance of circumcision even though they continued to do the physical ritual.
Again...Jeremiah 9:25-26 speaks on the issue and circumcision went back to the time of Abraham. For the people of Israel it was a symbol of their covenant relationship to God (Genesis 17:9-14). However, circumcision was also practiced by pagan nations LONG before Israel/Abraham were in existence---and some notable examples of that would be places like Egypt, who did it for the purposes of cosmetic design as well as for health purposes. The other nations didn't do circumcision as a sign of covenant with God--and by Jeremiah's time, the Israelities had forgotten the spiritual significance of circumcision even though they continued to do the physical mark.
The issue of circumcision is NOT about whether it was commanded, as that's clear from the text. What can be problematic, IMHO, is the claim that the practice of it was in any way unique/first of its kind to be used for distinction...
There was far more to being with God's people than being circumcised---for it was an outward sign of an inward reality...
Romans 4:10-11
How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
Why did God require circumcision? It was a sign of obediance to him in all that matters. As a sign of belonging to his covenant people...once circumcised, there was no turning back. The man would be identified as a Jew forever...and as a symbol of "cutting off" the old life of sin, purifying one's heart and dedicating oneself to God. It was more than any other practice the way God's people seperated from their pagan neighbors......in Abraham's day. And this was essential to develop the pure worship of God.
Although other cultures used circumcision as a sign of entry into adulthood, only Israel used it as a sign of following God....though the practice in/of itself never gave one righteousness---as seen in Romans 4:3, Romans 2:24-26, and Jeremiah 9:24-26. For rituals did not earn any reward with Abraham. It was by faith alone.....as Genesis 12:1-14 tells of God's call to Abram when he was 75 yrs old....and the circumcision ceremony was introduced when he was 99years old. The outward symbols demonstrated inward trust/faith and as reminders of our faith--but by themselves, they could never bring justification. Nonetheless, to be considered apart of Israel in the OT, it was a BIG deal, (i.e., Exodus 12:43-45 , Leviticus 12:2-4, etc).
As it concerns the practice of circumcision, much of its importance can be seen clearly when studying the context of what occurred with Moses when he failed to circumcise his children, as seen in Exodus 4:25-27. To the best of my understanding, Moses was the most humble man on the earth ( Numbers 12:2-4, Hebrews 11:23-25, etc )..yet God was about to kill Moses had he not circumcised his son......and he may not have been too familar with God's laws, especially the requirements of God's covenant with Israel in Genesis 17 that had not been carried out for over 400years. And Moses could not actively function as deliverer of God's people until he had fulfilled the conditions of God's covenant....and one of those conditions was circumcision. Before they could go any further, Moses and his family had to fulfill God's commands completely. For under the OT, failing to circumcise your son was to remove yourself and your family from God's blesings.....and Moses QUICKLY learned that disobeying God was even more dangerous than tangling with an Egyptian Pharoah.
Exodus 2:23-25 makes clear that the Lord remembered his covenant promises....and his people were called to remember the conditions of the covenant. Moses was held responsible for the provisions of the covenant with Abraham that required him to circumcise his sons. And failure to be circumcised may have led to some severe form of punishment, Numbers 9:6-14 . Had it not been for Moses's wife coming through, the man would have died. And to say it was not a part of the requirement to be considered Israel, one would perhaps have to diminish the significance of the threat Moses had.
Much of the issue of circumcision also goes back to Joshua 5, where God required Joshua to circumcise all male before entering the land. For its interesting to see how those males were already citizens of Israel. However, the ones who entered the land were those who were children of the older Israelities who never entered in.
Illegal immigrants entering the U.S.A can give birth to children in the states, effectively making them "U.S Citizens".. even though they may not have all of the full benefits of the country at their disposal due to their background...and the things they must work through. Likewise, by "accident of birth" those males in Joshua 5 were already counted among the Hebrew Children, but in order to enter the Land as legitimate citizens of Israel, they HAD TO BE circumcized according to the LAW of Moses. Even though the children of the older generation of Israelities had fought in many battles during their time in the wilderness (Numbers 20-36, Deuteronomy 2-4, etc), its possible that many of the young men had never been circumcised. Joshua 5:5 makes clear that all of those men of military age died in the desert after leaving Egypt....and whereas all the people coming out of Egypt had been circumcised, those born in the desert during the journey from Egypt had not. Its also possible that the new/second generation also had children who were uncircumcisd at this time.
But their circumcision had nothing to do with their being noted as apart of God's people.
For another example, the first covenant community was Abraham's household. It did not include only his immediate family but also slaves and strangers. They were all members of the household BEFORE they were circumcised. Gen. 17:14 says: " And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE; he has broken my covenant." For in Genesis 17:1 (also seen in Acts 7:7-9 ), God was making a covenant, or contract, between Himself and Abraham.
The terms were simple: Abraham would obey God and circumcise all the males in his household----and interestingly, those also who were NON-Jewish as well...including servants like Eleazer of Damascus ( Genesis 15:1-3, Genesis 15 ).......which is an Arab nation the last I checked...and of course, with Ishmael--the father of the Arab Nations ( Genesis 16 , Genesis 17:19-21 , Genesis 21, Genesis 25:8-10, Genesis 25, Genesis 28:8-10, Genesis 36:2-4, 1 Chronicles 1:27-29, 1 Chronicles 1 Romans 9:7, Galatians 4:21-31)--him being circumcised as well..Genesis 17:22-24 Genesis 17
In order for a person be be CUT off from his people, it seems logical to conclude that he needs first to be a part of the people...and the.slaves and strangers in Abraham household were all member of Abraham's people BEFORE they were circumcised. IMHO, Circumcision did not play a role for them to be part of the household.
As explained earlier, in Joshua 5, all the uncircumcised people in the covenant community at the time (the children of Israel) were members of the people. Requiring circumcision in order to enter the Land had nothing to do with them already being members of the covenant community. The circumcision was to fulfill the requirement as a a sign of the covenant, not to become citizens of Israel....or demonstrate faith in the Lord. For even those outside of the Covenant Community demonstrated faith in the Lord on many occassions....like Jethro or Melchizedek and the Roman Centurion of Matthew 8.
Thankfully, it was never the case that those who wanted to be apart of the community of God/believers had to be circumcised in all cases...and even more thankful in light of what Christ has done in the NT. For after the Cross of Christ, circumcision takes on an entirely different revelation:
Galatians 5:6
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
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I think it's significant that the token of covenant was not only made with Abraham/his descendants in Isaac and Jacob - but also with his son, Ishmael (from where the Arabs) come from.
What Issac recieved was the Blessing of a Covenant, whereas Ishmael recieved the Promise of a Blessing--both important to the work of the Messiah...for the older son (Ishmael) would be blessed in radical ways but he would be close to the work of what the Lord did through his brother (Issac), looking out for him in many ways and ensuring the job gets done. And with Ishmael, he was indeed included in one aspect of the Abrahmic Covenant as were all others apart from the Covenant God made with Abraham through Issac.
The first covenant community was Abraham's household. It did not include only his immediate family but also slaves and strangers. They were all members of the household BEFORE they were circumcised. Gen. 17:14 says:
" And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE; he has broken my covenant."
As said before, the terms were simple: Abraham would obey God and circumcise all the males in his household----and interestingly, those also who were NON-Jewish as well...including servants like Eleazer of Damascus ( Genesis 15:1-3, Genesis 15 ).......which is an Arab nation the last I checked...and of course, with Ishmael--the father of the Arab Nations ( Genesis 16 , Genesis 17:19-21 , Genesis 21, Genesis 25:8-10, Genesis 25, Genesis 28:8-10, Genesis 36:2-4, 1 Chronicles 1:27-29, 1 Chronicles 1 Romans 9:7, Galatians 4:21-31)--him being circumcised as well.
Much of it very similar to what occurred in Joshua 5 with the people being included/considered as apart of the Lord's people even before they were circumcised.....and much as Romans 4 and I Corinthians 7 note with circumcision. As Dr. Tony Maalouf notes wonderfully, there are numerous scriptures showing where even Ishmael was apart of the Covenants the Lord made with Abraham (as there were multiple Abrahamic covenants or parts of them--but the promised seed of the Messiah was meant to come through Issac.
For places that provide good research, one may wish to consider examining the following:
There can be no escaping the reality of how the OT shows that the Lord was Ishmael's God..and the only reason he was sent away was due to Sarah not liking how he represented competition with Isaac. But there's nothing showing where Isaac and Ishmael were enemies. The Angel of the Lord Himself spoke to Hagar and sustained her in the desert place. Couple this theophany to the religiousity of Abraham's clan of 300+ and IMHO, I don't see how Ishmael in any way or manner could not be a believer, at least in appearance in regards to religious protocols. The God of the Bible blessed and kept Ishmael and brought through him 12 princes.
But the God of the Bible purposely choose Isaac as the line to bring the Messiah through.
1. Ishmael was under the covenant of which Abraham was the covenant head.
2. Ishmael was not chosen as the line to bring the Messiah through.
I believe when God speaks of "Covenant", it is not by any means static. I believe there is "The Covenant", vs Other Covenants.2. Ishmael was not chosen as the line to bring the Messiah through.
Abraham was specifically called out for "The Covenant". What "The Covenant" entailed was separation and the creation of a nation that would carry the oracles of God which would culminate in the Messiah. It is through "this Covenant", the world has been blessed. All blessings that were afforded to mankind was because of "The Covenant".
It was "The Covenant", that God told Abraham that Isaac would inherit. This in no way nullified any possibility or God's electing purpose in saving Ishmael, Midian, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Ishbak, Shuah (Abrahams's other sons--all noted in Genesis 25 from his wife, Keturah.....as. Abraham didn't have only 2 sons and he blessed all of his children), Abraham's servants especially Eleazar, Job and Lot. All people who are saved are saved by God's electing decree, but God's electing decree is justified by "The Covenant" through Abraham culminating in Jesus our Lord.
Because Abraham covenanted with God, and was the covenant head of his household which included 300+ it follows by necessity everyone under him had to partake of the religious protocols that Abraham partook of. Even Ishmael, Zimran and Midian had to be circumsized, offer prayers and sacrifices to God. Abraham had to instruct all under him the counsel of God and how to live Godly etc. A major manifestation of this was when Abraham went to war to rescue Lot. Abraham's going to war to rescue Lot was in many ways apart of his religious duties by which he taught by practice to his household godliness.
In speculating the state of Ishmael and others under Abraham's headship.
1. Abraham being the covenant head automatically disseminated and diffused the knowledge of the true God to those under him. This was their religion. We see this being manifested in God even appearing to Hagar thereby confirming exactly what Abraham taught to those under him. The honor and respect and the imbuing of this is manifested when Ishmael went with Isaac (as the two eldest of Abraham's children) and buried Abraham when he died. This alone shows that they were still in contact and had a homogeneous culture between them.
2. Jethro a descendent of Midian (Midian is one of Abraham's sons) was from all appearances a believer in God. It was his daughter whom Moses married. And we know that Jethro was a Priest. This is overwhelming proof that the religious instruction that Abraham gave to his household was so intense and highly concentrated that 400 years later his descendants through Midian had a religious institution to the true God and God did not establish his covenant through Midian, only through Isacc...And what of Melchizidek? In Genesis 14, he was a Priest to God and we see of no covenants being established with him, but yet he for all purposes is considered saved
3. When one puts all these pieces together it is unfair, IMHO, for anyone to conclude that because God did not establish "The Covenant" through Ishmael that Ishmael was not saved because God likewise did not establish "The Covenant" with Job, Melchizedek, Jethro, Midian and we see them saved.
As one excellent study source said best (for brief excerpt): 2. Jethro a descendent of Midian (Midian is one of Abraham's sons) was from all appearances a believer in God. It was his daughter whom Moses married. And we know that Jethro was a Priest. This is overwhelming proof that the religious instruction that Abraham gave to his household was so intense and highly concentrated that 400 years later his descendants through Midian had a religious institution to the true God and God did not establish his covenant through Midian, only through Isacc...And what of Melchizidek? In Genesis 14, he was a Priest to God and we see of no covenants being established with him, but yet he for all purposes is considered saved
3. When one puts all these pieces together it is unfair, IMHO, for anyone to conclude that because God did not establish "The Covenant" through Ishmael that Ishmael was not saved because God likewise did not establish "The Covenant" with Job, Melchizedek, Jethro, Midian and we see them saved.
The promise to Abraham. Abraham himself is promised that he would be the father of a great nation (Gen 12:2), compared to the dust of the earth and the stars of the heaven in number (Gen 13:16; 15:5 ), and including kings and nations other than the seed itself (Gen 17:6). God promises His personal blessing on Abraham. His name shall be great and he himself shall be a blessing. All of this has had already the most literal fulfillment and continues to be fulfilled.
The promise to Abrahams seed. In addition to the promises to Abraham, the covenant includes blessings for Abrahams seed. The nation itself should be great (Gen 12:2) and innumerable (Gen 13:16; 15:5 ). The nation is promised possession of the land. Its extensive boundaries are given in detail (Gen 15:18-21). In connection with the promise of the land, the Abrahamic Covenant itself is expressly called everlasting (Gen 17:7) and the possession of the land is defined as an everlasting possession (Gen 17:8). It should be immediately clear that this promise guarantees both the everlasting continuance of the seed as a nation and its everlasting possession of the land.
Miscellaneous promises are included in the covenant. God is to be the God of Abrahams seed. It is prophesied that they would be afflicted, as fulfilled in the years in Egypt, and that afterwards they would come out with great substance (Gen 15:14). In the promise to Abraham, In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed, it is anticipated that the seed should be a channel of this blessing. In particular this is fulfilled in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.
All the promises to the seed in Genesis are references to the physical seed of Abraham. General promises of blessing to Abrahams seed seem to include all his physical lineage, but it is clear that the term is used in a narrower sense in some instances. Eliezer of Damascus, while according to the customs of the day regarded as a child of Abraham because born in his house, is nevertheless disqualified because he is not the physical seed of Abraham (Gen 15:2). Further, not all the physical descendants of Abraham qualify for the promises to the seed. Ishmael is put aside. When Abraham pleads with God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! God replies, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him (Gen 17:18-19). The line of the seed and its promises is narrowed to the one son of Abraham. Later when Jacob and Esau are born, God in sovereign choice chooses the younger as the father of the twelve patriarchs and confirms the covenant to Jacob. The particular Abrahamic promises and blessings are thereafter channelled through the twelve tribes.
While the promises to the seed must be limited in their application according to the context, it is clear that much of the general blessings attending the Abrahamic Covenant such as the general blessing of God upon men is larger in its application. Thus the sign of circumcision (Gen 17:10-14, 23-27) is administered not only to Isaac later, but also to Ishmael and the men in Abrahams house either born in the house or bought with money. Circumcision is wider in its application than the term seed, as far as the use in Genesis is concerned.
The promise to Abrahams seed. In addition to the promises to Abraham, the covenant includes blessings for Abrahams seed. The nation itself should be great (Gen 12:2) and innumerable (Gen 13:16; 15:5 ). The nation is promised possession of the land. Its extensive boundaries are given in detail (Gen 15:18-21). In connection with the promise of the land, the Abrahamic Covenant itself is expressly called everlasting (Gen 17:7) and the possession of the land is defined as an everlasting possession (Gen 17:8). It should be immediately clear that this promise guarantees both the everlasting continuance of the seed as a nation and its everlasting possession of the land.
Miscellaneous promises are included in the covenant. God is to be the God of Abrahams seed. It is prophesied that they would be afflicted, as fulfilled in the years in Egypt, and that afterwards they would come out with great substance (Gen 15:14). In the promise to Abraham, In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed, it is anticipated that the seed should be a channel of this blessing. In particular this is fulfilled in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.
All the promises to the seed in Genesis are references to the physical seed of Abraham. General promises of blessing to Abrahams seed seem to include all his physical lineage, but it is clear that the term is used in a narrower sense in some instances. Eliezer of Damascus, while according to the customs of the day regarded as a child of Abraham because born in his house, is nevertheless disqualified because he is not the physical seed of Abraham (Gen 15:2). Further, not all the physical descendants of Abraham qualify for the promises to the seed. Ishmael is put aside. When Abraham pleads with God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! God replies, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him (Gen 17:18-19). The line of the seed and its promises is narrowed to the one son of Abraham. Later when Jacob and Esau are born, God in sovereign choice chooses the younger as the father of the twelve patriarchs and confirms the covenant to Jacob. The particular Abrahamic promises and blessings are thereafter channelled through the twelve tribes.
While the promises to the seed must be limited in their application according to the context, it is clear that much of the general blessings attending the Abrahamic Covenant such as the general blessing of God upon men is larger in its application. Thus the sign of circumcision (Gen 17:10-14, 23-27) is administered not only to Isaac later, but also to Ishmael and the men in Abrahams house either born in the house or bought with money. Circumcision is wider in its application than the term seed, as far as the use in Genesis is concerned.
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- Jan 25, 2009
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The "us and them" usage of language does make a world of difference - especially as it concerns the Body of Messiah/Israel of God. Was just talking with this with other Messianics tonight at fellowship when it came to noting what it meant to be a part of the One Redeemed People and not seeing Israel as a body seperate from God's One People - but rather seeing Israel as having many differing people altogether, with the Hebrews/Israelities of natural descent being different from the Gentiles grafted onto Israel/becoming part of the COmmonWealth of Israel - both relating differently to the Lord, with even the Gentiles who have a calling to identify with the Hebrews as Ruth did being different from those Gentiles more so in the line of God-Fearers/remaining within their own cultures as followers of God.
We are indeed a Body - and like a body with multiple parts/differing organs having differing functions, so it is with Jews and Gentiles within the One Body of Messiah/His ISrael (Remnant Israel).....all of that distinct from the physical Israeli State/Israelites who do not believe in Yeshua.
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No worries Easy after i got past your post I realized everyone was taking the thread off topic and i knew we were done
Easy G (G²);62111328 said:Thanks for sharing - as those are excellent suggestions/ideas for interaction and they do a lot for promoting true unity of the Faith in Messiah
No disrepect intended - as I read the rule originally about not quoting people's stuff (from #202 ) but understood it to mean that one shouldn't quote things from other websites to make a case (as in posting material/resources like an article on Torah Observance ) when making a case for how we personally feel on the issue. It did not seem at the time to mean that one could not quote others whom they were in agreement with - as others on all sides have been doing that for some time and making commentary in support of one another. Additionally, sincerly, I was not certain as to whether you meant don't quote anyone (something that all others are doing/have been from the beginning ) or not quoting others making a comment to you directly (which is again something others have done since the request in the beginning - specifically from others disagreeing with what Contra/other like-minded people alongside myself feel). If you were speaking in general, that makes sense - but if singling people out, I don't really see why nothing was done that was unique to one individual. Just saying..
But again, I can understand your request now that you clarified it and thank you for bringing it to my attention
To be clear, on what was said, I'm concerned with observing/do observed to the best of my ability as do others and that has been noted repeatedly - be it by myself or others. Sincerly, don't know where you got the "no observance" part from as that's not present at any point.
Understood and I agree that there has already been consensus on how things should go. Thank goodness for that.
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Again I would like to re-iterate my stance in regards to Torah observance.
First the issues we read in the New Testament referred to non Jews in the Messianic community so I believe that's how you have to look at it. Jews were already circumcised and observing Torah.
The issue/s pertained to non Jewish believers.
Question. Is Torah observance a requirement for non Jews in the Messianic community? In my opinion I don't think the Apostle's made it a requirement and I have to agree with Lancaster they left it opened. They didn't make it a requirement but James said 'Moses is read in the synagogue's every Sabbath. James didn't make it a requirement because I believe when you make it a requirement it makes it burdensome. But the Council didn't agree on what or how much a non Jewish believer would eventually observe or not observe. The point of the decree to abstain from for non Jews was to get them away from idolatry.
Now since Moses is read in the synagogue's every Sabbath means that non Jews would be hearing Moses being read every Sabbath which means they would be observing the Sabbath per se.
I'm with Lancaster in that the Council didn't address the issue specifically. They addressed the issue but left it so wide open and this is the reason why we get so many different interpretations and confusion.
First the issues we read in the New Testament referred to non Jews in the Messianic community so I believe that's how you have to look at it. Jews were already circumcised and observing Torah.
The issue/s pertained to non Jewish believers.
Question. Is Torah observance a requirement for non Jews in the Messianic community? In my opinion I don't think the Apostle's made it a requirement and I have to agree with Lancaster they left it opened. They didn't make it a requirement but James said 'Moses is read in the synagogue's every Sabbath. James didn't make it a requirement because I believe when you make it a requirement it makes it burdensome. But the Council didn't agree on what or how much a non Jewish believer would eventually observe or not observe. The point of the decree to abstain from for non Jews was to get them away from idolatry.
Now since Moses is read in the synagogue's every Sabbath means that non Jews would be hearing Moses being read every Sabbath which means they would be observing the Sabbath per se.
I'm with Lancaster in that the Council didn't address the issue specifically. They addressed the issue but left it so wide open and this is the reason why we get so many different interpretations and confusion.
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I agree. Since there are promises given by God to the Jewish people, which have not yet been fulfilled, there must be a Jewish people because Gods promises do not fail. Therefore, there must be a distinct Jewish people in the flesh.
What happens if a non-Jew is circumcised on the 8th day? Nothing other then you have a circumcised Gentile. If I agree to give you and your family a new kite if you will all run a mile today, at 1 pm and complete the mile before 2:00 pm and another person hears what I say, and they and their family runs a mile today, starting at 1 pm and completing by 2:00 pm, it doesn't make any difference. I made the agreement with you and your family, not them.
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Yep.. Council of Jerusalem was to find a happy medium to allow them in the door of the synagogue to hear Moses. Hearing and doing is the way faith is to be understood, thus it was a given that when they heard, they would be incorporating it into their lives.
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That is where we would differ. When I read the Torah, I the Mosaic law given to the Jewish people as all of the law is addressed to the Jewish people or a segment of the Jewish people. Some commands are given to the Gentiles as the Gentiles are specifically mentioned as included in that obligation. So, if the Gentile people attended the synagogues to hear Moses, they would see the law as they are applicable to the various people groups. Plus, they would have heard the Rabbinical teaching which would apply only a subset of laws to the Gentiles.
So, yes, they would be incorporating it into their lives, but would not feel obligated to the entire law given in the Mosaic covenant, since they are Gentiles/not Jewish.
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