The ECF's and why you won't read them.

Tangible

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The Word is the Word, as long as it is in accordance with Scripture. The ECFs were no more wrong than a modern writer or speaker who is not scriptural, and no more right than a modern writer or speaker is when he is speaking in accordance to scripture.

The advantage that the ECFs had was proximity in time, geography and culture to the original writers of Scripture and to the descipleship of the Apostles.
 
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Rev Randy

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The Word is the Word, as long as it is in accordance with Scripture. The ECFs were no more wrong than a modern writer or speaker who is not scriptural, and no more right than a modern writer or speaker is when he is speaking in accordance to scripture.

The advantage that the ECFs had was proximity in time, geography and culture to the original writers of Scripture and to the descipleship of the Apostles.
There you go.
 
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miamited

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Amen.

2 Timothy 3:14-17: "14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (NKJV, emphasis added)

Hi,

Amen and again I say amen! The more I study the Scriptures, as I am sure Paul and Timothy both did with great diligence and care, the more I am confirmed in my spirit by the indwelling Spirit that that singular piece of passage is our confirmation that all we need to know of the way of righteousness and salvation has been given us through the words found in the Scriptures.

When we attempt to go beyond that; to give some further explanation or make those writings into some mystical or ethereal explanation to us; or even have ourselves some sort of 'aha' moment that gives us some renewed understanding, but any of these are not confirmed by the whole of the Scriptures, then I believe we fall into grave error.

We become, as I have repeatedly claimed, just as the Jews in their zeal to understand the 'deeper, hidden' meanings in the Scriptures. And I hope that everyone understands that such deception is common to man.

Consider that God spoke to Moses on the mountain. None of us today have had the physical presence of God with us, as what the descendents of Abraham had as they left Egypt to toil towards the land of promise. None of us have heard the voice of God that sounds like the rumblings of thunder rolling down off the side of that mountain. Not a one of us have stood beside a great sea trapped by a pursuing army intent to kill and take captive, that just parted that we could walk through on dry ground, escaping what was surely going to end in death and captivity by the miraculous hand and presence of God. None of us have seen the face of a prophet who has been in the very presence of God shining with some unimaginable glow like we might see on some christian Christmas card.

God has dealt with no other people with the proximity and closeness and provision that He dealt with Israel. We have not a single one of us actually witnessed a great pillar of cloud and burning pillar of fire to go before us like some whirlwind tornado. And in their zeal; in what they truly in their hearts believed was the 'right' way to honor that God who had walked before them, they diligently searched the Scriptures. They came up with all sorts of ideas and plans and rituals and practices that they truly, truly believed with all of their heart and all that was in them that these new understandings were honoring that God.

Yet, some 1500 years later, God sent His Son. He prepared our redeemer to come to us. His purpose was to be the culmination and fulfillment of all that the Scriptures told of the servant who would save His people from their sin. And that redeemer; that Son of the living God; that one who would pay the ultimate and awful price for our sin, spoke to the leaders of the Jews; those who had instituted so many practices and rituals that they had taught the people of God for centuries was the true and right way to worship God, and told them that they were like white-washed tombs and blind guides. That their rules and rituals were nothing more than burdens that had been placed upon men by men. He condemned them that they would chase after a soul over desert and waste land to make them a child of God, but that once within their grasp they actually would turn that person in to a devil! He did not ever speak kindly of the leadership of the Jews.

This example gives me pause, and I can't help feeling and understanding in my spirit that these practices and understandings and ideas and rituals that are held as the 'right' way to honor and worship God, that are based not on Scripture, but rather on newer writings of men for whom their is no testimony of in Scripture of them necessarily understanding or knowing the truth of God themselves, is exactly what happened in Israel.

Men began to tinker and think and ponder to themselves, "Well, what does this mean and what about this?" They began to come up with ways that their services and worship would use signs and symbols and acts of contrition and asceticism to 'prove' that this is the way to rightly worship God. Then they taught these things to the people. Declaring to them, "Oh, you must do this in this way and that in that way, to truly worship God. In your services you must wave a container of burning incense for this represents the Spirit among you. You must walk in a staid and proper manner with all these cute little costumes on, for this shows to the people that you are a man of God and represent them before your God."

And I say, "No!!!" This is not what your God has asked of you! These are nothing more than burdens placed on men by other men in some effort to show great piety and contrition. These are exactly the same types of things that my Lord rebuked Israel for. That they had taken the practices and rituals of men and made them to be what they taught the people was the truth of God.

According to this very piece of Scripture penned by Paul, the Scriptures contain everything we need to know as the way of righteousness. So, if there is something within our worship; something within our lives, that we cannot turn to the Scriptures and find, "Yes, this is what God asks of me!" Then my instruction is to set it aside. Do not conform to those practices and rituals of men, but conform yourself to the teachings of your God and Creator. In everything that you do, both in worship and your daily living, the born again believer should be asking himself, is this what God asks of me?

Ortho, I would ask of you one thing. The next time you are in worship and you see that canister of incense I would desire that you ask yourself: Would the Holy Spirit be here if that canister wasn't? If the answer is yes, then what is the canister but some manmade symbol of representation? If the answer is no, then I would ask you to ask yourself why it takes a canister of incense to bring forth the Spirit and not the hearts of the people standing all around you? There is only one 'symbol' that God asks us to honor and have within our fellowship and worship, and that is the symbol of the body and blood of our Lord when we join together to partake of communion.

Now, do not confuse old covenant worship from new covenant worship. In the old covenant worship there was a lot of symbolism and it was all established to point us to God's way of salvation that had not yet been fulfilled. But, in the new covenant, everything is complete. There is no need or desire of symbolism because we have seen with our eyes and heard with our ears God's salvation.

I'm confident that when Paul or Peter gathered a group of believers together in some town or city that they then went about burning incense in the room as they preached and taught and learned together. I just can't see Paul or Peter getting ready to begin teaching and preaching the pure gospel and asking, "Are my fine clothes ready that show that I am of God? It's time for me to go stand before the people."

God bless you all,
In Christ, Ted
 
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Standing Up

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Please tell me where in Scripture it is written that creation is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Right. Scripture mentions creation as a witness to God, but not as "profitable for doctrine ...."
 
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bbbbbbb

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I third that rejection. I really mean no offense when I say this, but I see becoming Catholic or Orthodox (or any other Christian sect similar) as being put into spiritual bondage to that particular religion, with all its countless rules and regulations. I really mean no offense, but I don't know how else to explain my thoughts on this issue. I'm sharing the Scripture passages of 1 Corinthians 1:12-17; Galatians 5:1-6; and Colossians 2:20-23, because (1) I believe 1 Corinthians 1:12-17 signifies that all believers are one in Christ and are not to be divided by church affiliations, doctrines, rituals or traditions; and (2) I believe Galatians 5:1-6 and Colossians 2:20-23 signifies the believer's freedom in Christ and how a believer should not become entangled in the commandments or doctrines of men. And when I further think about what the Apostle Paul is saying in Colossians 2:20-23, I automatically think of the Roman Catholic Church, simply because of all its commandments and doctrines of men (prayers, traditions, rituals, dogmas, extra-biblical beliefs, rules, regulations, etc.). I really mean no offense by what I'm saying here. I apologize if what I wrote here offends.

1 Corinthians 1:12-17: "12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect." (NKJV, emphasis added)

Galatians 5:1-6: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." (NKJV, emphasis added)

Colossians 2:20-23: "20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh." (NKJV, emphasis added)

I'll fourth that. And I want to thank you for your excellent, biblical posts here.
 
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BBAS 64

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The ECF's and why you won't read them. Apostolic Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

I'd like to know.

Forgive me...



I do read them..... and keep them in their correct context:

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures." - Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)

We make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings - Macrina and Gregory of Nyssa (On the Soul and the Resurrection)
 
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Rev Randy

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I'll fourth that. And I want to thank you for your excellent, biblical posts here.
I'm Orthodox and I'll fifth it. The ECFs do not change you into a Catholic or Orthodox. They may inspire you to look at things a bit different (mainly scripture) but I doubt most would simply up and change there form of worship based on the ECFs.
Such a change would require much more than simply reading someone's words. I've read the Quran and it also caused me no change but enlightened me as to how a Muslim thinks. I've also read history books that do not paint the USA in a great light. They didn't make me UN-American. I've read many anti-christian writings that didn't make me anti-christian.
I read the ECFs for their historical and yes their spiritual concepts. They (whether is was intended or not) show me heretical thinking and godly thinking of early Christians.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Please tell me where in Scripture it is written that creation is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

I was mixing that passage in romans that says the creation was made so that everything about God including the intricacies of the Godhead can be clearly seen in nature so that men have no excuse.

the ancient church sometimes calls creation the "little scriptures"

parables in the gospels and some of the letters are a good example as well.
 
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DiligentlySeekingGod

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Hi,

Amen and again I say amen! The more I study the Scriptures, as I am sure Paul and Timothy both did with great diligence and care, the more I am confirmed in my spirit by the indwelling Spirit that that singular piece of passage is our confirmation that all we need to know of the way of righteousness and salvation has been given us through the words found in the Scriptures.

When we attempt to go beyond that; to give some further explanation or make those writings into some mystical or ethereal explanation to us; or even have ourselves some sort of 'aha' moment that gives us some renewed understanding, but any of these are not confirmed by the whole of the Scriptures, then I believe we fall into grave error.

We become, as I have repeatedly claimed, just as the Jews in their zeal to understand the 'deeper, hidden' meanings in the Scriptures. And I hope that everyone understands that such deception is common to man.

Consider that God spoke to Moses on the mountain. None of us today have had the physical presence of God with us, as what the descendents of Abraham had as they left Egypt to toil towards the land of promise. None of us have heard the voice of God that sounds like the rumblings of thunder rolling down off the side of that mountain. Not a one of us have stood beside a great sea trapped by a pursuing army intent to kill and take captive, that just parted that we could walk through on dry ground, escaping what was surely going to end in death and captivity by the miraculous hand and presence of God. None of us have seen the face of a prophet who has been in the very presence of God shining with some unimaginable glow like we might see on some christian Christmas card.

God has dealt with no other people with the proximity and closeness and provision that He dealt with Israel. We have not a single one of us actually witnessed a great pillar of cloud and burning pillar of fire to go before us like some whirlwind tornado. And in their zeal; in what they truly in their hearts believed was the 'right' way to honor that God who had walked before them, they diligently searched the Scriptures. They came up with all sorts of ideas and plans and rituals and practices that they truly, truly believed with all of their heart and all that was in them that these new understandings were honoring that God.

Yet, some 1500 years later, God sent His Son. He prepared our redeemer to come to us. His purpose was to be the culmination and fulfillment of all that the Scriptures told of the servant who would save His people from their sin. And that redeemer; that Son of the living God; that one who would pay the ultimate and awful price for our sin, spoke to the leaders of the Jews; those who had instituted so many practices and rituals that they had taught the people of God for centuries was the true and right way to worship God, and told them that they were like white-washed tombs and blind guides. That their rules and rituals were nothing more than burdens that had been placed upon men by men. He condemned them that they would chase after a soul over desert and waste land to make them a child of God, but that once within their grasp they actually would turn that person in to a devil! He did not ever speak kindly of the leadership of the Jews.

This example gives me pause, and I can't help feeling and understanding in my spirit that these practices and understandings and ideas and rituals that are held as the 'right' way to honor and worship God, that are based not on Scripture, but rather on newer writings of men for whom their is no testimony of in Scripture of them necessarily understanding or knowing the truth of God themselves, is exactly what happened in Israel.

Men began to tinker and think and ponder to themselves, "Well, what does this mean and what about this?" They began to come up with ways that their services and worship would use signs and symbols and acts of contrition and asceticism to 'prove' that this is the way to rightly worship God. Then they taught these things to the people. Declaring to them, "Oh, you must do this in this way and that in that way, to truly worship God. In your services you must wave a container of burning incense for this represents the Spirit among you. You must walk in a staid and proper manner with all these cute little costumes on, for this shows to the people that you are a man of God and represent them before your God."

And I say, "No!!!" This is not what your God has asked of you! These are nothing more than burdens placed on men by other men in some effort to show great piety and contrition. These are exactly the same types of things that my Lord rebuked Israel for. That they had taken the practices and rituals of men and made them to be what they taught the people was the truth of God.

According to this very piece of Scripture penned by Paul, the Scriptures contain everything we need to know as the way of righteousness. So, if there is something within our worship; something within our lives, that we cannot turn to the Scriptures and find, "Yes, this is what God asks of me!" Then my instruction is to set it aside. Do not conform to those practices and rituals of men, but conform yourself to the teachings of your God and Creator. In everything that you do, both in worship and your daily living, the born again believer should be asking himself, is this what God asks of me?

Ortho, I would ask of you one thing. The next time you are in worship and you see that canister of incense I would desire that you ask yourself: Would the Holy Spirit be here if that canister wasn't? If the answer is yes, then what is the canister but some manmade symbol of representation? If the answer is no, then I would ask you to ask yourself why it takes a canister of incense to bring forth the Spirit and not the hearts of the people standing all around you? There is only one 'symbol' that God asks us to honor and have within our fellowship and worship, and that is the symbol of the body and blood of our Lord when we join together to partake of communion.

Now, do not confuse old covenant worship from new covenant worship. In the old covenant worship there was a lot of symbolism and it was all established to point us to God's way of salvation that had not yet been fulfilled. But, in the new covenant, everything is complete. There is no need or desire of symbolism because we have seen with our eyes and heard with our ears God's salvation.

I'm confident that when Paul or Peter gathered a group of believers together in some town or city that they then went about burning incense in the room as they preached and taught and learned together. I just can't see Paul or Peter getting ready to begin teaching and preaching the pure gospel and asking, "Are my fine clothes ready that show that I am of God? It's time for me to go stand before the people."

God bless you all,
In Christ, Ted

Ted (miamited),

I think this is a very inspiring response to my post, brother. Thank you so much for posting this. God bless you, brother.

In Christ Alone,
Diligently Seeking God
 
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DiligentlySeekingGod

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Right. Scripture mentions creation as a witness to God, but not as "profitable for doctrine ...."

Standing Up,

I think I understand what has been said here. Thank you for answering my question. I appreciate it very much. God bless you, brother.


I'll fourth that. And I want to thank you for your excellent, biblical posts here.

bbbbbbb,

You are more than welcome, brother. God bless you.


I was mixing that passage in Romans that says the creation was made so that everything about God including the intricacies of the Godhead can be clearly seen in nature so that men have no excuse.

the ancient church sometimes calls creation the "little scriptures"

parables in the gospels and some of the letters are a good example as well.

Michael,

The Scriptural passage you speak of is Romans 1:18-23. And I have never heard the term "Little Scriptures" before. Would you please elaborate on that term for me? I would also like to know which Parables and Epistles you were referring to. I'm asking because I don't understand the correlation you are trying to make between Romans 1:18-23 and 2 Timothy 3:14-17. Would you please elaborate more on what you meant?
And I want to thank you, in advance, for answering my questions. I appreciate it very much. God bless you, brother.
 
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DiligentlySeekingGod

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I do read them..... and keep them in their correct context:

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures." - Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)

We make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings - Macrina and Gregory of Nyssa (On the Soul and the Resurrection)

These are quite wonderful quotes on the sole authority of Scripture. Thank you for posting them. God bless you.
 
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DiligentlySeekingGod

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The Word is the Word, as long as it is in accordance with Scripture. The ECFs were no more wrong than a modern writer or speaker who is not scriptural, and no more right than a modern writer or speaker is when he is speaking in accordance to scripture.

The advantage that the ECFs had was proximity in time, geography and culture to the original writers of Scripture and to the discipleship of the Apostles.

Well said, Tangible. As long as it is in accordance with Scripture.... I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. May God bless you, brother.
 
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Tomyris

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Well said, Tangible. As long as it is in accordance with Scripture.... I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. May God bless you, brother.

QTF.

I must be in an agreeable mood. DO YOU AGREE??????
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Tzaousios So you do think it does matter -- good. Still, how did you determine which canon to start reading? Then, how did you determine which were the right OT books that made the Maccabees books incorrect?

Have you done any investigation at all into Paul's background as a OT and Jewish legal scholar? What about the relationship between that and his teaching methods? How did the first Jewish Christians show how the OT prophecies related to the Gospel of Christ? That he would use the OT does not negate any of the things you assert.

What you are saying sounds like a rush to fill spaces that you have not actually looked at.
Originally Posted by Tiredknight NO paul was not talking about the OT. He was talking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What WRITINGS was he talking about if the Gospels had not yet been written and the letters were not in wide circulation? That he would be referencing the OT does not negate the proclamation of the Gospel. :doh:
Originally Posted by bugkiller Enough Paul bashing. We understand you do not like Paul and why this is so.

bugkiller
Still waiting for bugkiller to substantiate this accusation...
I think he has you confused with another member :confused:

Speaking of not liking Paul:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7675856-73/#post61081154

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus You may be thinking of this member.
I would say he is just a tad anti-Paul :)

netzarim
user_offline.gif

Non-Pauline Messianic
Messianic.gif
 
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Rev Randy

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I hope that this is the case. :o
It's the "TZ" at the beginning of your username that confused him. Some see that and think Tzadikim. I guess he doesn't speak Greek and doesn't understand your username.
 
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