Is it a sin to have a sex change? [Moved]

wordsoflife · Jan 1, 2013

seeingeyes said:
Truly words of life.

Yes, and they are true. Jesus Christ is the true Word of Life and he spoke of hell often.

seeingeyes · Jan 1, 2013

wordsoflife said:
Yes, and they are true. Jesus Christ is the true Word of Life and he spoke of hell often.

Yes, he did. Particularly to those who would send others there. So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7)

But strangely enough, he didn't refer to eunuchs as 'sick, sick, sick' when he spoke of them, so the condemnation you are offering is your own.

Charlena Andrews · Jan 1, 2013

wordsoflife said:
They have earned condemnation and they will spend eternity in hell.

WordsofLife,
If I were walking in your shoes I would be very careful how you judge others like the religious self-serving and hypocritical Pharisees of Jesus day they didn't fare very well in God's eyes. Jesus warned us very specifically concerning judging others and how it would directly affect His judgemewnt of us. I am and shall remain a daughter of the Most High God and nothing you can do or say shall sway me from the steadfast relationship I have walked in for 41+ years. If I were you I would consider going back to the Scriptures you try to use to destroy others not like you and concentrate on Jesus walk in the 4 Gospels because except for 2 occasions He only ministered Love,Healing, Acceptance and Hope. By the way the two times in question were with the moneychangers and the Phariseeical priests. Oh and don't forget how He rersponded when they were going to stone the harlot, If you say you are christian shouldn't your reaction to sin and transgressions, even if they are only in your own mind, be like Jesus instead of being a legalistic judge, jury and hangman.
Your sister in Christ Jesus (like it or not)'
Charlena Marie Andrews
P.S. It is interesting that your name is words of life and yet all I have seen in your posts have been words of judement and condemnation. Just a thought

praying · Jan 1, 2013

HEsTiLLALiVe said:
It's witchcraft and manipulation and GOD does not approve of it.

Really, in this day and age. :doh:

praying · Jan 1, 2013

Is it a sin if you are born with a faulty heart to get a heart transplant? Would God knowingly give you a faulty heart (clearly he would) but he would never give you the wrong sex organs.

The ick factor is at great play in this thread.

mmksparbud · Jan 1, 2013

I can't believe this is still going on---I can only assume that those doing the condemning have had no personal experience with dealing with any of these people. Such as having one of them in your family, better yet, you having the problem. Having been in the medical field for over 27 years I saw a lot. I was in the medical field because I feel for the sick, the deformed, the wounded. I have seen the pain that people with this problem face. I have seen the looks given by judgmental nurses, the harsh treatment. I have no doubt that Christ has noted it too. He had great compassion for the afflicted. I've held the hands of co-workers who were faced with one of their children telling them they are not female, never have been, but male. I've seen parents turn their backs on their children.
It's beyond idiotic to even think that these people "choose" to be this way!!--You are seriously crazy if you think anyone would choose the insults, the rejection, the total lack of compassion shown, the loneliness they face. I am awed by their courage to stand alone and face the assault of the world to be what they feel God intended them to be, but for a genetic twist of fate. Well, to those who are so happily throwing stones, I wonder what you will feel like if your child comes and tells you this news--I'm sure you, too will turn you pious noses up in the air and your backs against them.
The human brain is far more complex than anyone knows. They are discovering more and more about it every year. I had a friend who was afflicted with having her head tilted to one side, every year it got worse, then every month, dr after dr found nothing and everyone, even her own sister and myself, started to think it really was in her head, an attention getting scam--how stupid people can be. She found one dr and knew immediately as soon as she walked in his door that this dr would help her, for all the people in the waiting room had their heads tilted!--She had a chemical imbalance of the brain, one little pill every day and her head began to straighten out till she was normal again. We were all thoroughly ashamed of ourselves. It's been over 30 years, and it's still straight. And that one dr had a lot of other dr's angry--they were sure they were right, all in their heads--and he proved them all wrong, and now they understand, but some of those idiot dr's went to their graves refusing to believe the simple truth--a slight problem with the brain---Well, at least her problem was fixable, their narrowminded, arrogant attitudes, were not.

jennimatts · Jan 2, 2013

praying said:
The ick factor is at great play in this thread.

Yes. The ick factor is those who judge and condemn. It is quite distasteful.

wordsoflife · Jan 2, 2013

Charlena Andrews said:
WordsofLife,
If I were walking in your shoes

But, you're not walking in my shoes. I am free to view sex changes how I do. As an abominable act of sexual immorality which will damn a persons soul to hell.

wordsoflife · Jan 2, 2013

Charlena Andrews said:
P.S. It is interesting that your name is words of life and yet all I have seen in your posts have been words of judement and condemnation. Just a thought

There is a time and season for everything under the sun...a time for judgement and condemnation...this thread is that time.

SonOfTheWest · Jan 2, 2013

wordsoflife said:
But, you're not walking in my shoes. I am free to view sex changes how I do. As an abominable act of sexual immorality which will damn a persons soul to hell.

Few people deny others their opinions, but it's been pointed out by more than one person in the course of the years that having and opinion and that opinion being intelligently made are two very different things.

wordsoflife · Jan 2, 2013

SonOfTheWest said:
Few people deny others their opinions, but it's been pointed out by more than one person in the course of the years that having and opinion and that opinion being intelligently made are two very different things.

Thanks for calling my opinion unintelligent. Even though my intelligence quotient is genius level and my opinion very intelligent and well thought out.

Matariki · Jan 2, 2013

Charlena Andrews said:
Matariki
Each of us has to stand before God and be accountable for their own life. In your case the circumstances you went through were unique to you and I am blessed that you have found the option you feel God provided for you and I say that in great sincerity. I am a transexual woman and have know since early childhood that I was a female inside though I was unaware of how to express it. I waited 58 years to finally step into my true identity.I am not running or hiding from anytrhing and that part of my life is the foundation upon which I grew as a woman. I know there are many who may feel and respond as you did but personally it was with a great deal of prayer, seeking God and counting the cost that I finally made the decision. For me personally I felt I needed to be the woman I was created to be in order to fulfil the destiny that He prepared had for me. I do wish to compliment you on the post, it was very well crafted and put down. I pray you reralize that I can admire you for your walk and your convictions while not agreeing with it for everyone. Be Blessed in all you set your hand to.
Charlena M. Andrews

Each of us have our own paths that we walk and have our own opinions on things. I hold nothing against those that get a sex change, but I have to question the reasons why (if you don't mind me asking). Because I felt for the most part as you did (a man in a woman's body - or a boy in a girls body). I had actually forgotten about my childhood trauma's (sometimes the brain can block or dumb down events as a defensive mechanism) until it was triggered a few years ago by watching a few shows about child sexual assault. And up until a couple of years ago I was very suicidal about it.

What sign did God provide for you?
What purpose does God have for you in becoming a woman?
Did you do any prior research (into how the brain works - physiologically and psychologically)?
Did you consult others prior to your sex change (counselling)?
What were you like before the sex change (lifestyle, mood, relationship with God and others around you)?
What does gender mean you (what does it mean to be a woman, or a man)?
Did you consider the possibility of environmental factors (abuse, trauma, social pressures etc.)?

For myself, being masculine was a part of who God created me to be - a masculine woman. And there's nothing wrong with that. I learnt how to express that by simply being who I am, and doing what I wanted to do (that are typically associated with men) - riding motorcycles, boxing, fishing, mechanics, DIY etc. Personally I don't care any more about societies standards, I care about my relationship with God.

The last thing I would want you to feel is regret, and although I don't think getting a sex change is the answer, I have no doubt that you are a godly person (many transexual's are). And I don't have a problem with calling you my sister in Christ.

Ave Maria · Jan 2, 2013

It is indeed a sin. It is a grave sin in my opinion. A person should not get a sex change but should instead be satisfied with the sex that God gave them when they were conceived. God does not make a mistake when He makes one embryo a male and another embryo a female.

Charlena Andrews · Jan 2, 2013

wordsoflife said:
There is a time and season for everything under the sun...a time for judgement and condemnation...this thread is that time.

But judgemnt and condemnation are not spiritual gifts from God, they are reserved gor God alone at His discretion. I do respect you zeal and your right to share your heart even though don't agree. May the Father blrss you and keep in the palm of His hand.

Charlena Andrews · Jan 2, 2013

Ave Maria said:
It is indeed a sin. It is a grave sin in my opinion. A person should not get a sex change but should instead be satisfied with the sex that God gave them when they were conceived. God does not make a mistake when He makes one embryo a male and another embryo a female.

In my case God created me this way as a transexual ad to me it is a blessing. It has opened doors into the LGBT community to share the Love of God and to show them tha all the reviling, hatred and spiteful condemnations were from mortals and wasn't in the Heart of their Creator. As for the sex change , referring to SRS,to me personally at 63 I may never make it but I would go through it gladly. Since my breast augmentation the most important change is that my tops and dresss fits properly which was my main reason. My body is a living temple -but it is my spirit and soul that were made in the image of God and as a daughter of God that is the part of me that is most precious and I guard it zealously.I respet your personal belief even though I don't agree with it.
Be Blessed
Charlena

SonOfTheWest · Jan 2, 2013

Ave Maria said:
It is indeed a sin. It is a grave sin in my opinion. A person should not get a sex change but should instead be satisfied with the sex that God gave them when they were conceived. God does not make a mistake when He makes one embryo a male and another embryo a female.

You're a doctor and/or psychologist who specializes in transgender studies or sex change surgery am I right?

seeingeyes · Jan 2, 2013

Ave Maria said:
It is indeed a sin. It is a grave sin in my opinion. A person should not get a sex change but should instead be satisfied with the sex that God gave them when they were conceived. God does not make a mistake when He makes one embryo a male and another embryo a female.

Does he make a mistake when an embryo is XXY or XYY?
Klinefelter syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
XYY syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does he make a mistake when an embryo is given some combination of male and female parts?
True hermaphroditism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mixed gonadal dysgenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does he make a mistake when an embryo is made male yet has female chromosomes?
XX male syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GenetoJean · Jan 2, 2013

wordsoflife said:
But, you're not walking in my shoes. I am free to view sex changes how I do. As an abominable act of sexual immorality which will damn a persons soul to hell.

You stated a lot of ifs earlier about a male to female transexual having sexual relations with a man. I can understand your point there, I dont agree with it necessarily but I understand where you are coming from. However, how about the vast numbers of us, still referring to male to female, that are attracted to women? How is it being sexual immoral?

SonOfTheWest said:
Few people deny others their opinions, but it's been pointed out by more than one person in the course of the years that having and opinion and that opinion being intelligently made are two very different things.

wordsoflife said:
Thanks for calling my opinion unintelligent. Even though my intelligence quotient is genius level and my opinion very intelligent and well thought out.

He actually didnt say your opinion was unintelligent; he said the opinion wasnt intelligently made. If you would explain more we could possibly understand what you are meaning better.

Matariki · Jan 2, 2013

SonOfTheWest said:
I assume you have medical and psychology training in order to properly make an accurate assessment of the nature of the sexual identity that any given person self identifies as and why?

I have experience with it for starters, and yes I have done my homework. Both scientifically and theologically (my first post was about theology). And I am convinced that environmental factors have a far greater role in determining the sexuality of an individual than genetics do. No, I'm not a doctor (very few people at the age of 22 are), nor is it my calling to be a doctor in the medical realm. But I have relatives that work in universities as professors in the area of psychology and sociology. So I have access to academically peer reviewed medical papers.

I may not be politically correct in my stance, but there is good evidence that backs up my position.

As I said before in my first post in this thread, there are some genetic factors involved here (in the development of the brain), which can determine the sexuality of an individual. However, many of those genetic factors are switches that need to be triggered, usually by environmental factors (stress, alienation, abuse, trauma, social pressure) are the most common. For those that use animals as a defence, need to realize that these environmental factors also occur in nature.

And I still stand by the notion of whether someone (a conscious person) engages in sexual lifestyle or not is a choice. The need to reproduce from a human perspective is instinctual. However when, where and how, yet alone whether they choose to or not, is a conscious decision (which is what differs us from the animal population in regards to sex).

Considering the complexity of sexuality, I've found a few articles that are easier to understand for the layman. One thing is for certain, the blanket statements 'I was born this way' or 'Its a choice' are far too simplistic, the truth is that sexuality is a combination of the two. Although I place my money on environmental factors being the greater contributor (as this article points out).

Genetics and Environment Shape Sexual Orientation | Psych Central News

Non-shared environment - is a subtype of environmental influences that refers to the environmental factors that produce behavioral differences among siblings living in the same household. Can also refer to the environmental influences that are unique to a given individual.

Genetics and Environment Shape Sexual Orientation

European researchers report that genetics and environmental factors are important determinants of homosexual behavior, according to findings from the world’s largest study of twins.

Environmental factors are specific to an individual, and may include biological processes such as different hormone exposure in the womb.

Researchers from Queen Mary’s School of Biological and Chemical Sciences, and Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm publish their findings in the scientific journal Archives of Sexual Behavior.

Dr Qazi Rahman, study co-author and a leading scientist on human sexual orientation, explains: “This study puts cold water on any concerns that we are looking for a single ‘gay gene’ or a single environmental variable which could be used to ‘select out’ homosexuality – the factors which influence sexual orientation are complex.

And we are not simply talking about homosexuality here – heterosexual behavior is also influenced by a mixture of genetic and environmental factors.

The team led by Dr Niklas Långström at Karolinska Institutet conducted the first truly population-based survey of all adult (20-47 years old) twins in Sweden.

Studies of identical twins and non-identical, or fraternal, twins are often used to untangle the genetic and environmental factors responsible for a trait. While identical twins share all of their genes and their entire environment, fraternal twins share only half of their genes and their entire environment.

Therefore, greater similarity in a trait between identical twins compared to fraternal twins shows that genetic factors are partly responsible for the trait.

This study looked at 3,826 same-gender twin pairs (7,652 individuals), who were asked about the total numbers of opposite sex and same sex partners they had ever had.

The findings showed that 35 per cent of the differences between men in same-sex behavior (that is, that some men have no same sex partners, and some have one or more) is accounted for by genetics.

Rahman explains: “Overall, genetics accounted for around 35 per cent of the differences between men in homosexual behavior and other individual-specific environmental factors (that is, not societal attitudes, family or parenting which are shared by twins) accounted for around 64 per cent. In other words, men become gay or straight because of different developmental pathways, not just one pathway.”

For women, genetics explained roughly 18 per cent of the variation in same-sex behavior, non-shared environment roughly 64 per cent and shared factors, or the family environment, explained 16 per cent.

The study shows that genetic influences are important but modest, and that non-shared environmental factors, which 'may' include factors operating during fetal development, dominate.

Importantly, heredity had roughly the same influence as shared environmental factors in women, whereas the latter had no impact on sexual behavior in men.

Dr Rahman adds: “The study is not without its limitations – we used a behavioral measure of sexual orientation which might be ok to use for men (men’s psychological orientation, sexual behavior, and sexual responses are highly related) but less so for women (who show a clearer separation between these elements of sexuality).

Despite this, our study provides the most unbiased estimates presented so far of genetic and non-genetic contributions to sexual orientation.”

GenetoJean · Jan 2, 2013

Matariki said:
Is it a sin to get a sex change? Yes.

...The bigger question here is why is getting a sex change a sin?

In my opinion, its because its not addressing the true problem which is first and foremost a spiritual problem; an inability to accept yourself for who you are physically - 'the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence'.

This might sound harsh, but I'm going to be honest when I say that I have struggled with transgenderism myself, everything that I am going to be talking about here is what I have learnt over the years through my own experience (everyone will have their own different opinion on this).

The truth is, that there is nothing wrong with being the biological gender you are. God created both man and woman equal, and in his image. Gender is not to be the centrepiece of our identity, Christ is.

Genesis 1:27: So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Which is the other sin here in the picture, the idolization of the opposite gender and what is associated with it in our society.

Romans 1:24-25: Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

So if God deems both man and woman equal and both made in his image, then what's the problem here? The problem is with humanity and the way we attempt to address issues regarding sexuality. Now I agree with modern science that a person can be born with genetic prepositions that can affect an individuals personality (whether someone is more feminine or masculine - Sexual orientation and the size of the anterior commissure in the human brain.) but there's nothing wrong with that, Its a part of God's diversity, however if diversity is not treated with respect, it can lead to many problems down the road (which Is what I'm going to talk about next).

However, I think the reason why someone might want to desire to be the opposite gender (or be attracted to the same sex) is due to environmental factors. And this is where it gets personal for myself.

Now, I do fit into the genetic preposition that I was talking about earlier, and prior to certain events I was a very happy little girl. The sort that enjoyed playing with toy trucks, action figurines, climbing trees, playing adventure games etc. And my parents were fine with that, to them I was the classic little tomboy.

However, where it all took an ugly turn for me was when I started school. At school I was sexually abused, and exposed to societies expectations of what men and women (those were the triggers for me). Over the years, first subconsciously, I thought If I were a male I would have more advantages such as being taller and stronger, and people would respect me more. As I grew, these thoughts became more intense, the church I attended during my teens with my family were advocates of complementarianism (not that I see anything wrong with complementarism, although its not the view I hold to), and were not for women speaking in church yet alone holding any position of leadership within the church.

Considering the nature of who I was (and still am) as an individual, and my desire to serve God, I was crushed. And I didn't receive much in support from my church either from when I first talked to the pastor at the time about my transgenderism. I ended up leaving the church in my late teens and haven't attended another church since (the final reason for me leaving was because I was being harassed by some of the female members of the church about my lack of interest in things such as dating, they thought I was a homosexual and accused me of such behind my back).

I thought there was something wrong with me, that God hated me for who I was and what I was struggling with. There was something wrong with me, but it wasn't all on me, nor all my fault.

I felt that I had only two choices;

Fit the female stereotype: play the gender role game that society and the church wanted me to play, ignore the burden I was struggling with and pretend that everything was all good.

Or become a male: start afresh, bury my burden underneath me, ditch the church and possibly my family, and make it up with God later.

The above, were all mankind and temporary solutions. If I had chosen either option, they both would've resulted in death (either choice was form of dress up, a mask).

But little did I know that God had a third option for me;

Let Christ lift and carry the burdens off my shoulders, let him take my sins and wash me anew, let him be my new source of identification. When I turned to Christ, everything else that I had been so caught up in, began to fall away. Before I was in a dark place, in my own world, but Christ opened the heavens for me and the light came through. Through him, I have life and my true identity, and through Christ I can accept who I am.

I can be myself, I can honour the fact that I am a person within Christ, a unique person and a woman. I can humble myself to those (both men and women) who have humbled themselves to Christ. And although I have days where I struggle (we all do), Christ is always there to remind me that I am not of this world and no longer have to conform to the worlds standards, and God's way has the bigger picture in mind, life.

Matariki, I know we have discussed this before but I think it was in a PM. In my experience, it isnt possible for a man to be feminate like a girl can be masculine. For a girl that is being a Tom-boy but it is accpeted by a lot. For a boy that is being a "sissy" and it isnt accepted by many at all. Just stating it is a society problem doesnt help, it doesnt change anything. Trying to go to your father or pastor doesnt help, all they do is try to "toughen" you up while calling you names and lecturing you that you are going to hell. The Christian counselor didnt help, he tried to point out things in my past that caused it but didnt tell me how to deal with it. Then finally now 2 different certified therapists have "diagnosed" me with being transgender.

Is it a sin to have a sex change? [Moved]

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