Spiritual Head and Leader?

Catholic Wife

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Hi my Baptist friends. You may have noticed by my user name that I'm not Baptist; but I come in peace, I promise. I have decided to make 2013 the year I better understand my fellow Christians by asking questions of them. I chose y'all first because of a forum I landed on a couple of days ago that presented Baptists in a very unflattering light. I come here seeking the truth about the Baptist faith. I hope you don't mind.


Anyway ... in a post in the thread about "Women Preachers", Bella Vita wrote:
Men and women are equal in the eyes of God but with different roles.

No women should not lead or have authority over men. Women should not be head pastors, deacons, or elders of churches. Scripture is very clear on this in many places. Women can however teach other women as well as children. There are many areas a women can be involved in with a church but being a head pastor should not be one of them. To go against scripture on this is feminist and prideful. A women of God should have no problem realizing her husband is her spiritual head and leader. And that men in the church are there to help her husband and family.

I have a few of questions about this.
First, what is your understanding of the term "spiritual head and leader"? What all does it entail?

Second, what exactly does "men in the church are there to help her husband and family"? Does it mean the woman is excluded from being helped? That sentence was unclear to me.

Third, we have three readings (OT, NT, Gospel) and a responsorial psalm during our Sunday Mass. Our readers and cantors can be either men or women. What are your thoughts about women reading - but not preaching - in church?

 
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desmalia

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:wave:

Hi my Baptist friends. You may have noticed by my user name that I'm not Baptist; but I come in peace, I promise. I have decided to make 2013 the year I better understand my fellow Christians by asking questions of them. I chose y'all first because of a forum I landed on a couple of days ago that presented Baptists in a very unflattering light. I come here seeking the truth about the Baptist faith. I hope you don't mind.


Anyway ... in a post in the thread about "Women Preachers", Bella Vita wrote:


I have a few of questions about this.
First, what is your understanding of the term "spiritual head and leader"? What all does it entail?

Second, what exactly does "men in the church are there to help her husband and family"? Does it mean the woman is excluded from being helped? That sentence was unclear to me.

Third, we have three readings (OT, NT, Gospel) and a responsorial psalm during our Sunday Mass. Our readers and cantors can be either men or women. What are your thoughts about women reading - but not preaching - in church?


First of all Bella Vita's post is right on and in total agreement with Scripture.
You may want to let her know you've started this thread here so she can specifically answer your questions regarding what she means. In the meantime I can give you a response as a Baptist as well. :)

A spiritual head and leader is one who loves his wife as Christ loves the church. It is a role that requires sacrifice, protection, teaching, etc. And it is the role specifically given to men. Not because men are somehow better than women, but because marriage is a reflection of the Trinitarian nature of God. Headship and submission are things to be celebrated, not rejected or abused. When we live in submission to the commands of the Lord we glorify Him and are blessed because God's design and commands for us are the best way - always.

As far as I can tell, when she said "And that men in the church are there to help her husband and family" what she means is that men are not called to lead their families alone and without help. In a healthy church family men are discipling and helping one another. We're all sinners and in need of encouragement, teaching and correction at times. That goes the same for us women. We should be in fellowship with other women, helping one another along in the faith.

Regarding women reading at the service, you will undoubtedly see different opinions on that. Personally I'm not comfortable with it because it puts a woman in a place of authority at least to some degree. However, it's not something that would cause me to walk out of the service. (A woman preacher would). Don't get me wrong, there are many very important ways in which women are gifted and called to serve in ministry. But it's important not to let feminism be the thing that guides that.

Also note that the term Baptist covers a wide range of beliefs, with the main thing in common is that we believe in baptism by immersion (credobaptism) and not baby baptism (paedobaptism). There are most definitely Baptists who hold to the liberal position that women should hold any position in the church as men do. Just as Catholics disagree on a variety of issues and doctrines, so do Protestants.

I hope that helps!
 
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desmalia

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Also, while this is not specifically a Baptist site, it includes Baptists and does a wonderful job of exploring the roles of men and women according to God's plan. Check it out if you're interested. True Woman 101: Divine Design
 
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Bella Vita

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I don't really understand what there is to not understand about my post I was pretty clear. But I will try to break it down more for you from my point of view.

A man is the head of the household in marriage he is called to this by scripture. And a wife is called to submit and show respect to her husband. The are separate but equal roles.

Ephesians 5 reads...

“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. ”For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.”

Men are called to rule and lead their homes...

1 Timothy 5:8
"If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

1 Timothy 3:4-5
"one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?"

As for the comment about the other men in the church being there to help your husband and your family. I was saying these men are there to mentor your husband and train him on how to be a good husband and father. They are also there to help when your husband and you and a team can not come to an agreement on something the husband is then called to take it to a close friend or the pastor and from there come to a decision and the wife is called to respect that decision because she trusts her husband and her church have her families best interest at heart. The pastor of the church can also be there to help with marriage counseling or family counseling if issues arise. The church is not suppose to be a hurtful it is there to help when issues come up in families and marriages.

If you do have a husband who works in ministry as I do it can be difficult to find a good balance between family and ministry work. But the wife and family should always come first. If ministry work is over taking a husbands life and is effecting his marriage he should take a step back. His marriage comes first before ministry.
 
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Catholic Wife

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I don't really understand what there is to not understand about my post I was pretty clear. But I will try to break it down more for you from my point of view.

A man is the head of the household in marriage he is called to this by scripture. And a wife is called to submit and show respect to her husband. The are separate but equal roles.

<snip>

As for the comment about the other men in the church being there to help your husband and your family. I was saying these men are there to mentor your husband and train him on how to be a good husband and father. They are also there to help when your husband and you and a team can not come to an agreement on something the husband is then called to take it to a close friend or the pastor and from there come to a decision and the wife is called to respect that decision because she trusts her husband and her church have her families best interest at heart. The pastor of the church can also be there to help with marriage counseling or family counseling if issues arise. The church is not suppose to be a hurtful it is there to help when issues come up in families and marriages.

Thank you, Bella Vita. You have answered my second question completely, but I was looking for specific examples for my first question. Your example is similar to how my husband and I live out "leadership" and "submission" in our marriage. When my husband and I cannot agree on a decision, I trust my husband's decision because I know that he loves me like Christ loves the church and that he has the best interest of our family in mind. We don't go to anyone in our church to help us make such decisions, but I suppose we would go speak to our friend, who is a deacon, if we needed a "moderator".

I have read scripture and understand it from a Catholic point of view, however, I am asking about how Baptists (of all kinds) apply these passages to their every day lives. I have read replies on a certain forum that parodies Baptist teachings and am appalled by some of the answers. I would like to know what this headship / leadership and submission looks like in actual Baptist marriages before I am led to wrong opinions about Baptists by others.

How do the scripture passages you provided (and others) apply in modern times? Take Ephesians 5, for example. Do Baptists believe a wife submitting to (respecting, obeying) her husband mean that she may not disagree with him on anything? Does it mean she is no allowed to give her opinion in decisions? What kind of decisions is a wife permitted to make on her own? Does 1 Timothy 5:8 apply to husbands caring for their wives and children, or for children / grandchildren caring for their mothers / grandmothers who are widowed? (1 Timothy 5:3-7, 9-16) Does 1 Timothy 3:4-5 apply to all men, or just to bishops and deacons? (1 Timothy 3:1-3, 6-13) If these two passages apply to all husbands, does 1 Timothy 5:8 mean that a husband must work two or three jobs to support his family instead of relying on his wife's help, or that a married woman is not allowed to work outside the home at all. How do these two passages from 1 Timothy jive with Proverbs 31:10-31?
 
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Catholic Wife

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First of all Bella Vita's post is right on and in total agreement with Scripture.
You may want to let her know you've started this thread here so she can specifically answer your questions regarding what she means. In the meantime I can give you a response as a Baptist as well. :)
Thank you for your reply. I didn't mean to imply that her post wasn't in agreement with scripture. I apologize if that's what anyone thought I meant. I want to know what all of the Baptists on this sub-forum think/believe, not just Bella Vita.


A spiritual head and leader is one who loves his wife as Christ loves the church. It is a role that requires sacrifice, protection, teaching, etc. And it is the role specifically given to men. Not because men are somehow better than women, but because marriage is a reflection of the Trinitarian nature of God. Headship and submission are things to be celebrated, not rejected or abused. When we live in submission to the commands of the Lord we glorify Him and are blessed because God's design and commands for us are the best way - always.
I agree with this. I am looking for specifics on how Baptists live this in their marriage. Some have implied on another forum (that allegedly parodies Baptist teachings) that women do not have the right to their own opinions, "talk back" to their husbands or men in general, make decisions on their own, and that wives should somehow be meek little mice instead of strong women. I have also encountered, during my time working as a paramedic on an ambulance, men who refuse to listen to me or do what I ask because I am a woman and am not "allowed" to have any authority over them (granted, I don't know for a fact that they were Baptist, but it is the predominant denomination where I worked). I don't think being a strong woman with opinions is directly in opposition with my being submissive to my husband. And, just because I am submissive to my husband, I don't believe I have to be submissive to every other man who is not my husband. Do some Baptists believe that some random man off the street has the "right" to tell me what to do, just because he's a man??? Surely not all do....


As far as I can tell, when she said "And that men in the church are there to help her husband and family" what she means is that men are not called to lead their families alone and without help. In a healthy church family men are discipling and helping one another. We're all sinners and in need of encouragement, teaching and correction at times. That goes the same for us women. We should be in fellowship with other women, helping one another along in the faith.
I think I must have been really tired when I read that part of her post, because re-reading it makes more sense. We also have men helping one another, and women helping one another, to be better wives and husbands. We also have couples helping other couples.


Regarding women reading at the service, you will undoubtedly see different opinions on that. Personally I'm not comfortable with it because it puts a woman in a place of authority at least to some degree. However, it's not something that would cause me to walk out of the service. (A woman preacher would). Don't get me wrong, there are many very important ways in which women are gifted and called to serve in ministry. But it's important not to let feminism be the thing that guides that.
I'm going to have to think about the first bolded statement above. I have to admit that this is a topic that is hotly debated on a Catholic forum I frequent - whether women should be allowed to serve at the altar as readers or "eucharistic ministers" (the actual title for someone who helps distribute Communion but who is not a priest or deacon is "Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, aka EMHC). Strangely enough, nobody on that forum ever seems to debate women being cantors.... hmm :scratch:

As for the second bolded statement, I think I'll make another thread about this.



Also note that the term Baptist covers a wide range of beliefs, with the main thing in common is that we believe in baptism by immersion (credobaptism) and not baby baptism (paedobaptism). There are most definitely Baptists who hold to the liberal position that women should hold any position in the church as men do. Just as Catholics disagree on a variety of issues and doctrines, so do Protestants.

I hope that helps!
You have been very helpful so far, and I hope you will reply to other threads I start, and give such thoughtful answers. I knew that Baptists have different views and beliefs, and I have read the Statements of Faith (and associated links) in the sticky at the top of the sub-forum. I'm trying to understand how the "average Baptist" views things related to faith, so that I can eventually compare what Baptists believe to, say, Methodists, Presbyterians, CoC, AoG, etc. I'll be "picking on them" in the months to come.
 
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Catholic Wife

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Also, while this is not specifically a Baptist site, it includes Baptists and does a wonderful job of exploring the roles of men and women according to God's plan. Check it out if you're interested. True Woman 101: Divine Design
I also want to thank you for this link. I cannot get too deeply into any long-term studies right now as I will have my plate full when nursing school resumes in a couple of weeks, but I will keep it in mind after I finish school in a couple of years.
 
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