Sister Wives - can we talk bout it?

LinkH

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Thank you for anotehr perspective on the matter JohnDB! Like I said, I"m trying to have an open mind about many things these days and to search matters out for myself both by observation and study of Scripture. My conclusion remains: Polygyny is NOT the ideal or 'Gods best', but if done with respect and charity (kindness/love) I dont think its a sin. Although I do agree with Paul, it's a lot easier to do ministry with 1 wife, so thus this is definitely advisable and proper.

How do you interpret Matthew 19. That, and similar passages, are the only real arguments, Biblically, I have against polygamy.

If a man divorces his wife, except it be for fornication, and marries another, he commits adultery. So what is it about that situation that is adultery? Taking two wives, or do you think the man is guilty of adultery somehow because he made his wife commit adultery by remarriage?

My wife was counseling once with a second wife from another country. She ended up divorcing and leaving her husband whose first wife was in the home country, but she wouldn't follow other people's advice and ended up getting remarried twice. Her child is with her mother overseas. Her life is really messed up.
 
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DZoolander

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How would that be an argument against polygamy?

Not that I'm in favor of polygamy - but that passage only talks about when a man takes on another wife after divorce. In polygamy - you're just adding another wife into the picture - original marriage untouched.
 
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JRSut1000

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Yeah, but polygamy is sleeping with mulitple spouses, so its not adultery in that sense of the word because in a true polygamy relationship, the person is faithful to all his spouses and only to them. Listen, like I said Im not condoning it and I dont really like the idea because of obvious flaws but lets be fair here if we're going to pick apart semantics at least apply them logically and accurately.
 
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JRSut1000

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Not in the technical concept of it, but my concern is that emotinally it does have a very big impact on wife number 2 or 3 or whatever. But i was thinking about it ealier. We worry about the emotional effects for women knowing full well their husband may choose a favorite wife. But dont parents have the same concern with multiple kids? The same problem can potentially exist, we tend to favor one child more maybe because of personality or how easy of a kid they are.
 
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iambren

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I try to reason this one out--Why would a man go through all the trouble having more than one wife? All that drama? Just for sex?? I don't buy it. I think it's just cultural or religious.

I mean, if I have a woman that I love with my whole heart, and she has no sexual hangups, then I'm set. My brain doesn't turn like these polygamous guys.
 
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LinkH

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Yeah, I was wondering the same Zoolander, the two concepts seem fairly unrelated.


If a man marries and divorces (except it be for fornication) and remarries, he commits adultery. Why? Because the original intention was 'two shall be one flesh.' Marrying two women violates this if one is still alive, unless it is for fornication. That's how I read the passage.

Otherwise, what makes the second marriage adultery?

If the principle of 'two shall be one flesh' makes it adultery to divorce and marry another woman, why wouldn't the same principle forbid polygamy?
 
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LinkH

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What about Moses?

He gave the Law to the Israelites and at times told them to marry a second wife to be in accordance with the Law.

Moses himself had two wives...and everyone had a fit because she was a Cushite. Not because she was his second wife.


Maybe. But I've also read the interpretation that she was a Cushite and a Midianite. (There were Cushites they say in the area south of the land of Israel which was called Canaan at the time.) But she was also apparently a Kenite.

Maybe it was another wife. We don't know how long Zipporah lived, so it's possible Zipporah died. Moses lived to be well over 100. We don't know if his wife lived that long. If she died at 85 or so, Moses could have remarried. His 'natural force was not abated' by the time of his death.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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I've seen a few clips about the Druggars, part of it the father leading a devotion, but but I can't comment much on their 'indoctrination' of their children.

'Indoctrination' is a negative word, but Christians certainly are to teach their children the word of God. The Bible tells fathers to raise up children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. It would be immoral and irresponsible to know these important things and not pass them on to our own children.

I don't disagree, however, the girls here, through their upbringing, learning, and their place within the family are being groomed to assume the same role. None of these girls are going to come out of that household and be doctors, lawyers, etc etc. They have neither the ambition to achieve anything beyond wife and mother, nor have they been given the education for it. These kids are not going through a traditional homeschool program, they're going through one based off of their lifestyle. Again, they have pursued an exempt status based off of the numbers of their family to excuse them from a traditional home-based education program.

Im saying one man with 4 wives and 20 children has to divide way more of his attention than one man with one wife and 20 children.Wives need attention.So having 3 more wives to pay attention to on top of 20 children is what I'm saying.

So if the Duggars were to have 4 more kids, then you'd say that their attentions were also too divided to be successful as parents? What is the magic number?

I try to reason this one out--Why would a man go through all the trouble having more than one wife? All that drama? Just for sex?? I don't buy it. I think it's just cultural or religious.

I mean, if I have a woman that I love with my whole heart, and she has no sexual hangups, then I'm set. My brain doesn't turn like these polygamous guys.

I agree. If it were just about sex, there's easier, and more culturally acceptable, ways to go about it. If it were about sex, he could get a mistress, have sex with her, and send her on her way. He wouldn't have to worry about supporting her, housing her, having children with her, providing her financial stability, the stigma... He could simply have his affairs and move on. The fact they all operate in a way that supports each other in this that is considered a religious calling shows that it's absolutely not just about sex.
 
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DZoolander

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I agree. If it were just about sex, there's easier, and more culturally acceptable, ways to go about it. If it were about sex, he could get a mistress, have sex with her, and send her on her way. He wouldn't have to worry about supporting her, housing her, having children with her, providing her financial stability, the stigma... He could simply have his affairs and move on. The fact they all operate in a way that supports each other in this that is considered a religious calling shows that it's absolutely not just about sex.

I think it all depends on the context with which you view the world.

Let's say I firmly believed that I needed to "flee fornication", that I believed that the bible at least tacitly accepted polygamy, and that I wanted to have sex with a variety of different women...I can see how polygamy would be the best choice.

In that - I think that *sex* is the defining issue. It's the defining issue in the same way that sex, I also believe, is the defining issue/characteristic of dating and marriage.

When I was single (and it might sound really stupid/basic to say this) - the only women I would date would be those I could see myself wanting sex from. There's a word for women/men whose company you enjoy that you don't want sex from - and it's "friend".

If I met a woman, and say I really liked how she thought, how she treated kittens or something, etc...I can spend all the time I want with her. But if I don't want sex from her - she's going to be the girl that I drop off at the end of the night with a hug and "see ya later." I'm certainly never going to look at her as a possible marriage candidate.

For her to progress to that next level of consideration - she first would need to be someone I felt that attraction to - and then see if we have more in common. But - it's the sexual attraction part that's the initial and necessary first step in *that* kind of relationship.

So - do I think that religion plays a part in their decision? Yeah - I definitely do. But - only insofar as religion limiting their number of available options to get what they want. In other words...

"I want sex from multiple people -> the bible says fornication is immoral -> the bible doesn't say I can't have multiple wives -> I've avoided fornication"
 
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LinkH

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I don't disagree, however, the girls here, through their upbringing, learning, and their place within the family are being groomed to assume the same role. None of these girls are going to come out of that household and be doctors, lawyers, etc etc.


They have neither the ambition to achieve anything beyond wife and mother, nor have they been given the education for it. These kids are not going through a traditional homeschool program, they're going through one based off of their lifestyle. Again, they have pursued an exempt status based off of the numbers of their family to excuse them from a traditional home-based education program.


I haven't watched the show, but just based on what you said, I'm not opposed to families doing that sort of thing. Plenty of people who went through the traditional high school or even college curriculums are flipping burgers and working other low-paying jobs now day. If any of the girls are called to celibacy, that may be a challenge. If the kids are literate and hard-working they will be able to go in a different direction when they get older. I don't have a problem with a good QF family teaching their kids to perpetuate their lifestyle. I'm more concerned with the state trying to take ownership of kids and program them to think in thoughts that are contrary to God's word.
 
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DZoolander

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Ehhh - I have to disagree with that. I think that when raising a child - your job should be to open as many doors and options to them as possible - so that when they are old enough they have the opportunity to choose what they wish. If they want to be a QF housewife - then more power to them. If they want to continue on to higher education and pursue a career instead - they are enabled to do so as well.

The point is - I do not believe in limiting the options of your children from the get-go or pre-ordaining them for a specific type of life. I could never in good conscience make that kind of decision for my daughter. Rather - I want the world to be her oyster - where she's empowered to decide what kind of life she desires to have.

If that means exposing her to some "ungodly" things in the process - so be it. I also don't believe in sheltering children from the realities of life and who's running around out there - what they think - believe - etc. The goal (once again IMHO) is not to shelter kids away from "evil" - but rather to give them a good enough foundation to know how to deal with it.
 
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Created2Write

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What Romans and Link we're saying about adultery is this:

If a man is married and divorces his wife for reasons other than adultery, and then remarries he commits adultery because his divorce isn't spiritually valid. So legally he may no longer be married to his first wife, but spiritually their marriage is still binding. Therefore, his second wife isn't a valid marriage and their sexual relations are adulterous.
 
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DZoolander

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But how is that in any way relevant to polygamous relationships?

No divorce has taken place. No wife has been "put away". You've simply added another one. In the polygamist's eyes - they're just as married to the first wife as they were before. There's simply a second one now...or a third...or a fourth. None of them actually terminates any of the preceding.
 
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R

Romanseight2005

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But how is that in any way relevant to polygamous relationships?

No divorce has taken place. No wife has been "put away". You've simply added another one. In the polygamist's eyes - they're just as married to the first wife as they were before. There's simply a second one now...or a third...or a fourth. None of them actually terminates any of the preceding.


Because adultery is being defined as having sex with someone other than the original wife.
 
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DZoolander

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You know I'm not a big bible quote'r person...lol

But where in the Bible does it say that?

From everything I've ever read - discussions of adultery are only in the context of having "put away" your wife. Nowhere that I'm familiar with does it express that "anyone other than the first wife"

(because - saying "if you divorce your first wife for reason other than adultery and then remarry" is not the same thing as "if you add a second wife, remaining married to the first wife")

Or did I miss something? lol
 
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Romanseight2005

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You know I'm not a big bible quote'r person...lol

But where in the Bible does it say that?

From everything I've ever read - discussions of adultery are only in the context of having "put away" your wife. Nowhere that I'm familiar with does it express that "anyone other than the first wife"

(because - saying "if you divorce your first wife for reason other than adultery and then remarry" is not the same thing as "if you add a second wife, remaining married to the first wife")

Or did I miss something? lol


Because of the way the passage emphasizes,"and marries another," The passage doesn't say that putting away the wife is the adultery, but putting away the wife, and marrying another.

and when Jesus says that Moses allwed divorce due to the hardness of their hearts, he also added that it was not that way from the beginning, indicating that God defined marriage by the first or beginning of marriage. Jesus also stated that two are to become one flesh, not the three, or four.
 
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JohnDB

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When you "put away" a wife...that simply meant kicking her out of your house. She could not access the courts to get a divorce...so she would remain legally married but homeless. So often the woman would find another guy to live with...and that would constitute the adultery. Jesus said God would charge the husbands who put away a wife with the wife's adultery instead of considering the women guilty of adultery. They would be innocent in God's eyes but the husbands would be guilty.

Then the other thing about the show which I found rather unique was that the additional wives after the first wife was the first wife's idea usually...including the fourth wife. She was the idea of the first two or three wives. (And actually a rather attractive young lady who was divorced from her first husband)
 
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