No salvation outside the Church

Rhamiel said:

I know you did not direct this question to me, but I hope you do not mind if I give you my opinion on this?

I would say that it would be a serious concern
as others have said, the extent of the persons knowledge and other issues do factor in
but schism is a serious sin
Christ prayed that all would be as one, so continuing separation would be a type of rebellion against the Lord

it is not my place to judge the salvation of a person, especially of another Christian
only God can see a persons heart

I hope my words do not seem to harsh

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Considering what StThomasMore has posted, I'm pretty much going to Hell.

So, I don't think your words are harsh.

WarriorAngel said:

Welcome to OBOB.... Where using an icon gives you the right to argue on a side..pick a side.

Read the catechism. It's pretty much Catholic teaching.

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It's not just here. There have been heated arguments among Catholics on CAF, as well.

Edited to Add: I do read the Catechism. I have a copy on my desk.

Anna Scott said:

It's not just here. There have been heated arguments among Catholics on CAF, as well.

Edited to Add: I do read the Catechism. I have a copy on my desk.

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Cool.

I have one from my classes. It's huge - and i have the compendium for it. Which is another book that explains it. lol.
Catholicism isnt for sissies.

I have seen some who are more Catholic than the Pope...
[we wont let them know of course - that they arent]

Anna Scott said:

Considering what StThomasMore has posted, I'm pretty much going to Hell.

So, I don't think your words are harsh.

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I never stated anyone was going to hell. But you are definatly not invisibly ignorant. Invisible means one cannot see. So it is regarding someone who has absolutely no physical or intellectual contact with the gospel. People just "not wanting to change" or "cannot accept" is not being invisibly ignorant, thats just sloth or a form of stubbornness.

The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."

Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

this subject has always been hard for me

Well we Orthodox, they haven't figured out where we're going! LOL...

Anna Scott said:

Considering what StThomasMore has posted, I'm pretty much going to Hell.

So, I don't think your words are harsh.

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StThomasMore said:

I never stated anyone was going to hell. But you are definatly not invisibly ignorant. Invisible means one cannot see. So it is regarding someone who has absolutely no physical or intellectual contact with the gospel. People just "not wanting to change" or "cannot accept" is not being invisibly ignorant, thats just sloth or a form of stubbornness.

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If I'm not invincibly ignorant, and you said I definitely am not (actually, you said I am definitely not "invisibly" ignorant); and I am outside the Catholic Church, where else am I going besides Hell?

the thing that causes me the most problems, are not the writings of any Pope
but rather the words of our Lord himself
Luke 10:16
The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me


if we believe Jesus, then there are very scary words.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

Well we Orthodox, they haven't figured out where we're going! LOL...

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Honesty is a beautiful thing!

--But your avatar is scaring me.

From a Catholic perspective, you and I both are. We're not ignorant at all. We've both read the catechism front to back a million times. I've read enough Catholic theology in the last 8 years to rival the library of Alexandria! LOL...you know that better than anyone, Anna. And after reading the Fathers, delving past soundbytes from Catholic Answers of papal claims in isolation or quotes about the Patriarch of Rome in isolation, after reading the interactions of East and West and the influences of Augustine, the way the ancient Church really worked, I came to the conclusion that Holy Orthodoxy is the real deal. So, I am, from a Catholic perspective, also in your Hades-bound league Fortunately, being Orthodox for a while now, the rich spirituality, the Fathers being on our side, the powerful prayer life, the Eucharist, the icons, the different way of seeing Christ without legalistic lenses, I'm a different person spiritually. When I was chrismated along with my children and wife, a couple parishoners patted me on the shoulder and said, "welcome home." I used to say that in Catholicism to converts, but now I felt it was legit, in my heart. I have nothing but love for Catholics. There are so many awesome saints in Catholicism, several good popes, wonderful people, and the morality they fight for is just in a corrupt age. The pope's war against the culture of death and the apathy of Europe is all laudable. I am not a convert who throws my Catholic years under the bus. I reject several teachings, but still harbor no ill-will or distaste for Catholics. On the contrary, they're my brothers and sisters in Christ. But do I believe in extra ecclesium non sallus? No way.

Anna Scott said:

If I'm not invincibly ignorant, and you said I definitely am not (actually, you said I am definitely not "invisibly" ignorant); and I am outside the Catholic Church, where else am I going besides Hell?

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

I've read enough Catholic theology in the last 8 years to rival the library of Alexandria! LOL...you know that better than anyone, Anna.

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I do, indeed!

gurneyhalleck1 said:

I have nothing but love for Catholics. There are so many awesome saints in Catholicism, several good popes, wonderful people, and the morality they fight for is just in a corrupt age. The pope's war against the culture of death and the apathy of Europe is all laudable. . . .

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Gurney,

There have been many great Popes. I'm a huge fan of Pope John Paul II; and as you have said before, the Catholic Church has done so much throughout history to guard against heresy. They are fighting the good fight.

Anna

St Pio - St Francis to name my top favorite's.
Unfortunately - tho the miracles surrounding them were incredible - including the woman without any irises who stuns science that can see via Padre Pio - the EO look at the stigmata as a bad thing.

However; my prayer for reunification continues.
Myrna Nazzour - stigmatist who oozes holy 'pure' oil that heals - has been sent for the purpose of reunification.
If the Lord wants it - then i am all for it.

I am thankful for the Pope - because he is the Pastor of Christianity - whether one likes it or not - all are safe vouched under his wings. Not an easy task for a small man [who is so hated and envied] - but the Joy of the Lord that carries him - certainly is incredible.

Revelation 3:
[6] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. [7] And to the angel of the church of Philadelphia, write: These things saith the Holy One and the true one, he that hath the key of David; he that openeth, and no man shutteth; shutteth, and no man openeth: [8] I know thy works. Behold, I have given before thee a door opened, which no man can shut: because thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. [9] Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and adore before thy feet. And they shall know that I have loved thee. [10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of the temptation, which shall come upon the whole world to try them that dwell upon the earth.
[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. [12] He that shall overcome, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; and he shall go out no more; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and my new name. [13] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. [14] And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God: [15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.

StThomasMore said:

You gave the courtesy because you don't want another warning probably from accusing others. I always find it better to block such toxic types. Even though you continue to copy and paste my quotes from other peoples posts desperate for some type of response from me.

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Desperate, huh? FYI, consider well -- I have never received any warning whatsoever. My slate is very clean. Note well, that I did not accuse you, though I probably should have. Try another tree.

With your attitude being so overly contentious, I have no desire to engage in further discussion with you. Your theories are far removed from authentic Catholic teaching, but since you are so certain of being right, I know it is not prudent to try and enlighten you. Have a good new year.

When the Jews would not accept Jesus' teaching, they walked away and followed him no longer, and he let them go. John 6:66 The beautiful example he left for us is not to run after people when their ears are closed to truth. No doubt about it, though, he was pained by their refusal to trust his words.

Anna Scott said:

I don't think I've ever been in a discussion about salvation outside the Catholic Church that didn't involve Catholics arguing with each other. This makes it very difficult for those of us on the outside looking in; and it makes it difficult to understand Catholic doctrine as more fully defined vs. Catholic doctrine changing.

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Amen to that.

Anna Scott said:

If I'm not invincibly ignorant, and you said I definitely am not (actually, you said I am definitely not "invisibly" ignorant); and I am outside the Catholic Church, where else am I going besides Hell?

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I think it is more than just intellectual ignorance or being secluded from the truth. It has to strike a chord where you feel there is nothing else & it is the right thing for you to do. We are obviously not all called to investigate & enter the Church. But that does not mean that you are not united with it. Just imperfectly. There are many non-Catholic Christians out there that I have no doubt in my heart, are heaven bound. The Church as far as I can tell, feels the same.

Michie said:

What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means

One of the most misunderstood teachings of the Catholic Church is this one:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation" (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus).



Invincibly Ignorant

The Church recognizes that God does not condemn those who are innocently ignorant of the truth about his offer of salvation. Regarding the doctrine in question, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (quoting Vatican II document Lumen Gentium, 16) states:

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847)
​

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I have read everything you posted....interesting!

What do you say of someone like myself who understands what is written here, and has been looking into the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church but does not submit to its authority and actively believes some of their major doctrines are false....but I have been baptised in water and in the Spirit, I love the L-rd, I preach the gospel and I have a certain hope that one day I will put on an immortal body and see my Saviour in the flesh.....am I saved according to RCC doctrine?

Zazal said:

What do you say of someone like myself who understands what is written here, and has been looking into the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church but does not submit to its authority and actively believes some of their major doctrines are false....but I have been baptised in water and in the Spirit, I love the L-rd, I preach the gospel and I have a certain hope that one day I will put on an immortal body and see my Saviour in the flesh.....am I saved according to RCC doctrine?

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What do we say? It is not time. Continue to live according to your light and grace. Every seed has a moment to open, and if God is calling you to our faith, He will enable you to germinate and take root. I learned this lesson with my gardening. Some seeds like zinnias and marigolds germinate in 5 days, whereas others can take up to two months. It is important to continue to water them so their hard shell can "crack" and send forth its little shoot and grow.

Something tells me that searching into our faith has been a watering session for you. Continue to pray and seek. If God is calling you, I have no doubt that the right moment will suddenly cause you to say, "Oh, now I see!"

Last week, I watched a tape from EWTN that I recorded a couple years ago when Marcus Grodi shared his conversion story with the viewers. It was a full hour show, and he told of the various issues that kept holding him back, while at the same time, he was increasingly uncomfortable as a Presbyterian pastor, afraid of misleading his flock, and ready to quit the ministry. Those little nudges of conscience all along the way are from the Holy Spirit, who will not fail to bring such a person all the way home. I took notes, and googled for the program, but I could not find it. If God nudges me to share the scriptures that convinced him, I may try to put it into words, though Marcus was a much better witness.

Happy New Year!

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

8. The next day Moses entered the tent and saw that Aaron’s staff, which represented the tribe of Levi, had not only sprouted but had budded, blossomed and produced almonds. 9. Then Moses brought out all the staffs from the Lord’s presence to all the Israelites. They looked at them, and each of the leaders took his own staff.

10. The Lord said to Moses, “Put back Aaron’s staff in front of the ark of the covenant law, to be kept as a sign to the rebellious. This will put an end to their grumbling against me, so that they will not die.” Moses did just as the Lord commanded him.

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Why was this important to be kept as a perpetual reminder? No one can become a high priest simply because he wants such an honor. He must be called by God for this work, just as Aaron was. [Heb. 5:4] Korah and his band had rebelled against Moses in Numbers 16 and were killed by God.

Korah [et al] became insolent and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council. 3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, “You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord’s assembly?”

8 Moses also said to Korah, “Now listen, you Levites! 9 Isn’t it enough for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the Israelite community and brought you near himself to do the work at the Lord’s tabernacle and to stand before the community and minister to them? 10 He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too. 11 It is against the Lord that you and all your followers have banded together.

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As ancient as the Israelite community in Moses' day is the law of valid succession to the priesthood. In the same way as Korah's rebellion, Luther initiated the break away from faith, against God's lawfully appointed successors beginning with St. Peter. And like him, others have begun thousands of denominations, but only one is true. There are so many prefigured signs such as the budding almond branch to help us discern that one only is lawfully appointed by God.

And like the rebellious in Korah's day, some Catholics take it upon themselves to spread false interpretations of our faith, when they have no authority to do so. They trouble innocent seekers like yourself, and will have to answer for their impunity. Pay them no mind, and listen to the Church who alone has the authority to interpret her own documents.

St_Barnabus said:

What do we say? It is not time. Continue to live according to your light and grace. Every seed has a moment to open, and if God is calling you to our faith, He will enable you to germinate and take root. I learned this lesson with my gardening. Some seeds like zinnias and marigolds germinate in 5 days, whereas others can take up to two months. It is important to continue to water them so their hard shell can "crack" and send forth its little shoot and grow.

Something tells me that searching into our faith has been a watering session for you. Continue to pray and seek. If God is calling you, I have no doubt that the right moment will suddenly cause you to say, "Oh, now I see!"

Last week, I watched a tape from EWTN that I recorded a couple years ago when Marcus Grodi shared his conversion story with the viewers. It was a full hour show, and he told of the various issues that kept holding him back, while at the same time, he was increasingly uncomfortable as a Presbyterian pastor, afraid of misleading his flock, and ready to quit the ministry. Those little nudges of conscience all along the way are from the Holy Spirit, who will not fail to bring such a person all the way home. I took notes, and googled for the program, but I could not find it. If God nudges me to share the scriptures that convinced him, I may try to put it into words, though Marcus was a much better witness.

Happy New Year!

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emphasis mine

if God is calling him to our faith?

do you think that God desires people to be seperate from the Church?

Rhamiel said:

emphasis mine

if God is calling him to our faith?

do you think that God desires people to be separate from the Church?

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Do you?
Of course not. But He will continue to send his graces until such moment that one either accepts or finally rejects the truth that has become known to them, not merely intellectually, but with faith. None of us can know the heart of another, whether or not it is open to truth, but God alone. St. Elizabeth Ann Seton took many months to come to full faith. All the while, her good friend kept answering her doubts and gently leading her to understand the truth. Ask Michie how long it took her. It is not a matter of reading something one time and bingo, you need to make a decision.