Messianic Judaism?

Temptinfates said:

Asking or participation of live people is not the same as asking dead to influence one's prayers. Pates

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Talking to others rather than going to Christ directly is the same as saying one shouldn't be concerned on going to saints for them to go to the Lord. Others have taken it in the direction of saying they need no one else but the Lord when it comes to prayer requests, intercession and other things - and for others saying that God set direct means for things to be recieved by having to go to others who'd take folks to the Lord, it's not something to move past. Early Jewish culture was full of that..especially as it concerns what happened with Rachael weeping for her children and why the rabbis said Rachael was left on the road/buried where she was.

Rachel dies giving birth to her second child Benjamin before reaching Jacob's father house, 'before reaching Ephrath' - Bethlehem (Genesis 35:19). Jacob buries her where she died, in her own tomb (Gen 35:20; 48:17) and not in the ancestral tomb at Machpelah. And just before the entrance to the city of David, whose ancestor is Judah, Leah's fourth son. Jacob tells us that 'when I came from Paddan, Rachel, to my sorrow, died in the land of Canaan . . . and I buried her there' (48:7). Why does Jacob not carry Rachel's body the twenty or so miles south from the alleged place of her demise to the cave at Machpelah which Genesis states as the proper burial site for members of Abraham's family. Jacob himself tells us he buried Leah in the Machpelah (Gen.49:31) and he requests that he himself be buried there as well (50:13). So why does Jacob not bury his beloved Rachel at Machpelah, but rather in a roadside grave? According to a midrash because she dishonored her father by stealing (on the Ten Commandments)...and according to another midrash Jacob knew of that the Babylonian exiles would pass by and Rachel could pray for mercy (midrash Rabbah Gen. 82:10). Her early death is attributed by the Rabbis to Jacob's curse over the teraphim as seen in Genesis 31:31-33 and Genesis 31:17-20.

• Rachel: Midrash and Aggadah | Jewish Women's Archive

• Capsule History - The Committee for Rachel's Tomb​

Prayers of live people requires FAITH. The dead cannot produce Faith. The dead if it be damned or saints SEE and KNOW the world they have moved on with. It is better to not see. Without Faith it is impossible to please Adonai. On earth, it requires faith. Calling on a saint that sees the heavenly realm requires no faith on the part of the saint. It is the living that must have faith.

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It's not really logical claiming that those who've passed on do not have faith - as they still trust in the Lord/seek him, just as it was with the saints in Revelation offering prayers to the Lord even after they were persecuted and they were asking the Lord to avenge their deaths.

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

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Those who have faith are all those, dead or alive, who have to look to the Lord...and call out on Him.

It is different. Asking the living is indeed different than asking the dead. Asking others to pray in unison TO Adonai is not the same as praying to the dead hoping they will inflence Adonai. The living have Faith that is what Adonai requires. Only the living can have faith.
Temptinfates

Temptinfates said:

It is different. Asking the living is indeed different than asking the dead. Asking others to pray in unison TO Adonai is not the same as praying to the dead hoping they will inflence Adonai. The living have Faith that is what Adonai requires. Only the living can have faith.
Temptinfates

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It wasn't different for Yeshua when he was talking to Moses or ELijah - who supported him and whom discussed with him things to come. And looking to others is looking to others. Any differences attempted to be made can be semantical - for if one believes that they should only go to Yeshua, then there needs to be consistency in showing in scripture where that was always the case and that others didn't go to anyone but the Lord. There is nothing in scripture at any point saying that the living alone are those who have faith, seeing that even those who passed have had struggles...as Revelation 6:9-11 deals with.

Revelation 6:9-11

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9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

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Those who have faith are all those, dead or alive, who have to look to the Lord...and call out on Him. For even the saints who were persecuted and killed were having to go to the Lord/be instructed to have faith in waiting for things to be completed before their deaths were avenged. And apart from that, there's still what was accepted in Jewish thought with Rachael weeping for her children/praying for them whenever they passed by her way. The Jews have been asking the matriarch Rachael for her intercessions since (according to one Jewish source*) the time of Joseph, who first asked his mother for her intercession as he passed her tomb on the way to his captivity. Her tomb is, to this day, a pilgrimage site as the devout still ask for her prayers.

Per this, the passage in Jeremiah (Rachel crying for her children) is interpreted in Judaism as her intercessions to God.

* Tanach, Stone edition, in a footnote.

For more, as seen here at Judaism.com:
For some good resources to investigate, there are two editions of the OT; the LXX, and the Stone edition of the Tanach (Masoretic, tr. by a board of Rabbis). Amazon.com: Tanach: The Stone, Student Size Black (9781578191123): Nosson Scherman: Books That Joseph -3,500 years ago - was the first to request the prayers of his deceased mother, Rachel, is described in a footnote of the Tanach.

• The Tomb of Rachel

• 
  [*]Rachel’s Tomb: The Bible vs. Tradition
  [*]

• Rachel's Tomb :: Jewish Media Resources

• Rachel Weeping: Jews, Christians, and Muslims at the Fortress Tomb

Prayers are also requested of the other matriarchs and patriarchs..and on the issue, it is with this context that many early Jewish believers had no issue with prayers unto Mary before Lord Jesus. Just as Rachel is the mother of the Jews, though literally the mother of Joseph, the use of the term "queen" for Mary is also a reference to her Son Jesus Christ as "King". Of course, the kingship of Christ is not in the worldly sense, as He does not act like worldly rulers (see the passages where Christ describes this). Rachel was for sometime a sort of "symbol" of Israel (in part because of her intercession, recorded in Jeremiah). For Mary to be both a particular person and a "symbol" of the whole has precedent (as her life also parallels, as well).
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If you search the scriptures, it can be noted that there is no mention condemning this contemporary (and ancient) practice of asking for Rachel's intercession. Granted, the context of "Rachael weeping for her children" (as seen in Mt. 2:18 and Jer. 31:15.) is used differently in the NT, but this does not negate the older witness or the contemporary practice; it adds an interpretation but does not subtract. Asking for intercessions was and is common in Judaism, and contemporary with the ministry of Christ and the writing of the NT. This practice is not condemned in the NT. There is not a teaching from Christ or the apostles against this common contemporary practice and belief.

God Himself tells Jeremiah about (the dead) Rachels' prayer, and His answer to her. How could the dead be unaware, yet in Jeremiah 31, (the dead) Rachel know's of her people's (children's) exile. As I have mentioned before, Jeremiah (31) records that Rachel was not only conscious after her death, but indeed knew of the Jewish exile, pleaded with God on the behalf of the Jews, and God answered her prayer

Yeshua talking to Moses or Elijah is not the same, either. He wasn't praying to them--neither was he asking them to influence the Father. Yeshua or Adonai allowing them to appear is a whole different concept than praying to dead saints to influence Adonai.

I am going to ponder on the Rev verse. I have some further research before I answer that one--allow me that.

The mirash is part of oral torah, and not sure whether I consider it valid...
Get back with you Easy. Kind of working, right now.
Temptinfates

Temptinfates said:

Yeshua talking to Moses or Elijah is not the same, either. He wasn't praying to them--neither was he asking them to influence the Father. s

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Dead is dead - and talking is talking, whether talking to someone in request to influence/pray or talking simply to talk. Others have already noted (based on their interpretation of the TOrah) that any type of communication with the deceased is wrong - and thus it'd be semantics to try focusing on whether communication involved requests. Yeshua was plainly talking to a deceased Moses and Elijah....and that was controversial enough for any person who had the mindset that the dead were all unaware/"sleeping" or that no conversations with the deceased were ever allowed.

Yeshua or Adonai allowing them to appear is a whole different concept than praying to dead saints to influence Adonai.

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Praying to the dead/saints, nonetheless, is in the same category as it concerns talking with those who've passed on in the Lord....and with praying to the dead, the way it is practiced isn't necessarily about asking for influence as much as it's about remembrance. It's like seeing pictures of family and rememebring their walks with CHrist/saying "Give me strength and help me to remember what you died for"....or being in a church with pictures of saints/Biblical figures and remembering their struggles and using them to encourage yourself in the Lord - knowing like Hebrews 11-12 notes that they are in the Hall of Faith and they are the "Great Cloud of WItnesses" who surround us/cheer us on to finish our races and stand strong. There was strong belief in the early body of believers that the deceased were not simply playing a harp and looking cute - but that they were actively looking down on us and cheering the body of believers on to stand strong for the Lord since they also have jobs.

And on the issue of prayer, a lot of things take on a radically different ideology when considering what occurred in the Jewish worldview and how prayer was a TWO Way street - not only praying for us on the Earth, but being praying for others in the Heavenlies (just as they pray for us). As said earlier (in the event it was missed), it is already an historical fact that the early Christian practice of prayer for the dead was not an odd thing to do. …with many of the early Church fathers in the 1st through 3rd centuries speaking often on the subject. …whether it be with Augustine, Gregory of Nyssa, Tertullian or many others. For those who are Hebrew Catholics, it's not a difficult issue to comprehend - and for more on what other Jewish believers have said on the issue, one can go to Hebrew Catholics - Yom Kippur. As it relates to Jewish culture/a Hebraic perspective, The Maccabees apparently PRAYED for the dead (and gave us the “gift” of “Purgatory”). ..and though others may take issue with it, one must keep in mind the historicity of the book—especially seeing its description of the Jewish Feast of Hannakah, also refered to as the celebration of the the Feast of Dedication in John 10:21-23/ John 10.

For an excerpt from the book on the issue:
Granted that Maccabbees (both the 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees ) …..had one element where they took things to the “Puragotory” level–and Jews do not regard 2 Maccabees as canonical, perhaps because of its theological innovations……but the book is historical……and there are many elements I’ve been intrigued by when seeing other scriptures. For Jesus did indeed celebrate the Holiday of Channakuh that came out of the Maccabees account....and although he didn't comment on it, I must wonder what he'd say about it on certain aspects if he was willing to participate in a holiday that endorsed it. Additionally, as said earlier, there are other scriptures within the Protestant cannon that can make you really wonder—-one of which may refer to a prayer for the dead, found in 2 Timothy 1:16-18, which reads as follows:
As with the verses from 2 Maccabees, these verses refer to prayers that will help the deceased “on that day” (perhaps Judgement Day).

Of coruse it is not stated that Onesiphorus, for whom Paul prayed, was dead. However, some scholars infer this based on the way Paul only refers to him in the past tense, and prays for present blessings on his household, but for him only “on that day”. And towards the end of the same letter, in 2 Timothy 4:19, Paul sends greetings to “Prisca and Aquila, and the house of Onesiphorus”, distinguishing the situation of Onesiphorus from that of the still living Prisca and Aquila. There’s also consideration of how other things Jesus said seem to indicate that there will be forgiveness in the world to come—as seen in Matthew 12:31-33 /Luke 12:9-11………..and, for that matter, how God could forgive the sins of others who were acting in ignorance when they were nailing them to the cross in Luke 23:33-35—without any record of their ever asking God’s forgiveness in THIS lifetime since they were unaware of who the Christ was.

As another noted wisely, in the event I'm not saying:

For further reference:

• Prayers to the Dead Are Forbidden in Scripture? - Bread From Heaven

Something else to consider.
Obvious is the case that many in in the faith have always had a view of taking the Word literally..and I’m reminded of many conversations where it seemed that this was brought up in theological discourses on taking the WOrd seriously and yet many being unwilling to accept what Paul said here–showing in action that many really do not believe in taking the Word seriously and more specifically, taking the WOrd wherever it’s in line with their paticular views. Personally, I take the scripture literally—and I see no reason as to why not. Many may say “So, you’re basically being for the concept of PURGATORY/THINKING DEAD RELATIVES can be redeemed??!!”, with the reaction often being based on what may often be seen in many liturgical circles

Though difficult, I don’t see the verse as a problem to take literally since there’ve been numerous interpretations given to it…..with one reasonable view being that “they…who are baptized..” refers to living believers giving outward testimony to their faith in baptism by immersion due to how they were originally drawn to the Lord by the examples of other exemplary, faithful beluievers who were witnesses of the power of God and who had already died subsequently. This paticular perspective is very much what often occurs with the concept of Icons in Eastern Orthodox–where pictures of previous saints that have already gone before us (including those in Hebrews 11/Hebrews 11:11 with the Hall of Faith).

And even with seeing prayer from the departed, the members of the Body of Christ, whether in Heaven or on Earth do pray for one another. The Saints in Heaven are righteous. So, their prayers are effective and accomplish much.

I am going to ponder on the Rev verse. I have some further research before I answer that one--allow me that.

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By all means, Bruh..

The mirash is part of oral torah, and not sure whether I consider it valid...

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Can definately relate to that..as there are a lot of things with the Oral Torah I'm still processing on. For me, the issue is that many thoughts others say are "not Jewish" like prayer by the decased are things that were commonly accepted in the Jewish world ....and I have to be fair in noting that.

Get back with you Easy. Kind of working, right now.
Temptinfate

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Shalom

Hey, Easy.
I cannot really justify it one way or the other. I suppose I will take a pass on it and just agree to disagree.
Number one, you must accept that who the RCC claims to be a Saint is a Saint. I do not accept their declaration of who a saint is as a fact. There is only one that decides that. I suppose if you are a catholic, it is your perogative.
Since I do not know for absolutely certain who actually gets into heaven (except for some written in scripture ) I am just not going to subscribe to the idea. I cannot find so much scriptural evidence one way or the other to want me to do it. I suppose I cannot at this time criticize someone of the RCC faith for it, it is just something that I will never do.
My family has been into witchcraft and other darkness for a long time. I keep clean and away from anything that even closely smells of anything close that my family practices or has practised in that regards in the past. I suppose it is just something I want to steer clear of.
I am not totally against the RCC as some are, just to clear that up. I had many discussions with someone from the RCC and rather enjoyed some of the info he posted. But, it is and was not enough for me to accept it.
I am not a Catholic, so, I don't trust the RCC as to who is a saint in the first place. There is only one that knows for sure who is a saint. If you are a catholic, and you agree with the idea that the RCC decides who a saint is (by catholic standards) then I suppose it can be part of your religion.
I am not trying to put them down, just noting why I do not and will not accept their acceptance of it. I really can't find enough evidence to support it and not enough to go against it----although I severely want to find it..
I pray to the Father by redemptive freedom of Yeshua. I like it that simple.

You provide much insight I had not entertained--as I knew you would. I thank you for it. It is just not something I would consider doing, though. If my prayers alone before Adonai are not enough, then I accect the answer I get or don't get. I do know that he hears my prayers and answers me from time to time. So, I never felt like I needed anything else. It has already been proven to me that he hears my prayers alone. I hpoe my explanation is a good enough answer for my views.
Temptinfates

Temptinfates said:

Hey, Easy.

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Hey Tempinfates..

I cannot really justify it one way or the other. I suppose I will take a pass on it and just agree to disagree.
Number one, you must accept that who the RCC claims to be a Saint is a Saint. I do not accept their declaration of who a saint is as a fact. There is only one that decides that. I suppose if you are a catholic, it is your perogative.

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Actually, there are many debates on the issue of who is or isn't a saint within liturgical circles - with things being radically different for those who are either Catholic, Anglican or Eastern Orthodox (more here )and many other groups. There was another discussion elsewhere on the issue (if interested) - as seen here in How does one become a saint?.

From an Eastern Christian perspective, Fr. Thomas shows how we are all called to be Saints and examines the many different kinds - if choosing to go here to Ancient Faith Radio.


Many saints that are held strongly in one group may not be accepted in another, whereas some are universal. I tend not to concern myself with it fully - although the concept behind saints (including all believers passed and with the Lord) praying for people below on the earth is something I can definately see as having validity....and one doesn't really have to look to any paticular saint for the concept of heavenly intercession/prayer to be valid. As it is, as noted before, intercessions from those who have left were already well accepted LONG BEFORE anything of RC came on the scene....as seen directly in how the matriarch Rachael and others were treated in Judaism (Rachael seen as praying for the Jewish people on the earth before the Lord - as shared earlier in #63 ).

For more, Philip Schaff in History of the Christian Church Vol. II §27 noted that the early catacombs contained inscriptions where the departed are asked to pray for their living relatives (p. 83). What is interesting is a letter from the Church of Smyrna dated AD 155:
The distinction between the worship of Christ and the veneration of the saints is very much the same distinction Orthodox Christians use today. This shows the remarkable continuity of Orthodoxy with early Christianity. It can also be taken as evidence that the distinction between adoration and veneration was not concocted by the Seventh Ecumenical Council but has very early roots. Another evidence for the early Christians asking the intercession can be found in Hippolytucs’ commentary on the prayer addressed to the Three Youths mentioned in Daniel:
An interesting journal article was written by David Frankfurter: “The Cult of the Martyrs in Egypt Before Constantine: The Evidence of the Coptic Apocalypse of Elijah” in Vigilaeae Christianae 48 (1994): 25-47. This suggests not only the antiquity but also the catholicity of this practice.

Since I do not know for absolutely certain who actually gets into heaven (except for some written in scripture ) I am just not going to subscribe to the idea. I cannot find so much scriptural evidence one way or the other to want me to do it. I suppose I cannot at this time criticize someone of the RCC faith for it, it is just something that I will never do.

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Everyone's different and is at a different spot of comfort with certain things.

My family has been into witchcraft and other darkness for a long time. I keep clean and away from anything that even closely smells of anything close that my family practices or has practised in that regards in the past. I suppose it is just something I want to steer clear of.

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Can definately relate, as I've seen others with the same kind of struggles. My family background also had a lot of witchcraft/madness involved in it which we had to break off - but we also responded differently to it by not having a "Throw out the baby with the bathwater" and others have done the same when it comes to coming from background where there's acceptance of ancestor worship or supernatural realities. Whereas others are more comfortable with avoiding all aspects of it, there are others who are for seeing where there was truth in line with scripture/sticking with that - similar to people who get saved and cannot watch movies with violence in them because they came from a past of violence..even though others may be able to handle it.

I am not totally against the RCC as some are, just to clear that up. I had many discussions with someone from the RCC and rather enjoyed some of the info he posted. But, it is and was not enough for me to accept it.
I am not a Catholic, so, I don't trust the RCC as to who is a saint in the first place. There is only one that knows for sure who is a saint. If you are a catholic, and you agree with the idea that the RCC decides who a saint is (by catholic standards) then I suppose it can be part of your religion.

I am not trying to put them down, just noting why I do not and will not accept their acceptance of it. I really can't find enough evidence to support it and not enough to go against it----although I severely want to find it..

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Can understand where you're coming from - although again, to be clear, what is being discussed isn't so much about what the RCC is for since it was never them that held to such concepts. I grew up around Roman Catholics when I was younger (as I went to a Catholic school for elementary school) - and part of my family is Catholic (uncle), with my mother also growing up Catholic and my sister going to Catholic school. Seeing a lot of the things they did up close while also working in the Protestant world, it is amazing to see how many things were said about Catholics that never lined up with what I saw played out.

And with Catholics, there are many differing variations - as a Roman Catholic is not the same as a Melkite Catholic or Eastern Catholic. More was shared on the issue in-depth in another discussion with another Messianic, as seen here or here. Most of the Eastern Catholics never would do as Roman Catholics and have often brought that up as being an issue for them with other Catholics...as it concerns identifying with the West Eastern Catholicism/Byzantine Catholics stand out in many ways (having much in common with Orthodoxy/beauty) - although it does seem alot of people in Orthodoxy don't really enjoy Eastern Catholicism while others in Roman Catholicism despise them for being too "Orthodox" for their taste ..and neither seeing where they're connected (#16 ).

I pray to the Father by redemptive freedom of Yeshua. I like it that simple.

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I also do think that we can have direct link to the Father by the Blood of Yeshua/faith in Him (even though there, according to what seems to be present in scripture) differing channels for certain things - and I'm still wrestling through a lot of that myself/wondering how to process that.

You provide much insight I had not entertained--as I knew you would. I thank you for it.

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Blessings - and thank you for providing stimulating dialouge

It is just not something I would consider doing, though. If my prayers alone before Adonai are not enough, then I accect the answer I get or don't get. I do know that he hears my prayers and answers me from time to time. So, I never felt like I needed anything else. It has already been proven to me that he hears my prayers alone. I hpoe my explanation is a good enough answer for my views.
Temptinfates

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Feeling ya where you're coming from. I've seen it multiple times where the Lord has come through for me, in bad times and the worse of times, and answered my prayers like David said in Psalm 34 and many other places. ..so many times the Lord showed up/showed out. But many times, I know that it had nothing to do with me alone praying - as I could literally feel like someone was praying for me somwhere and the Lord was answering a prayer request based on what another did on my behalf. And prayer is something I take very seriously...
Shalom

Temptinfates said:

If my prayers alone before Adonai are not enough, then I accect the answer I get or don't get. I do know that he hears my prayers and answers me from time to time. So, I never felt like I needed anything else. It has already been proven to me that he hears my prayers alone.

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I know in the scriptures that things often were answered when the saints came together collectively in prayer (be it here on the earth or in the heavenlies) and lifted things up before the Lord...even though prayer is personal as well. If interested, one may wish to investigate the following---on the issue of trusting God at all times/corporate faith, as it's from the ministry of the man who's apart of our church.....under the name of Joseph Garlington---and one can check out more of his ministry at the following:

• -"Joseph Garlington 01/05/07 Part 01"

• -"Joseph Garlington 01/05/07 Part 02"

• -Joseph Garlington 01/05/07 Part 03

The sermon itself was preached on my church in 2007.... specifically on the issue of FAITH/Decreeing---as nothing happens in the Kingdom of God until something's said.....and the reality of what the issue of FAITH is truly about since many times people often equate what occurred with the Mustard Seed Faith Analogy/Cursing of the Fig tree message as if it was something meant SOLELY for individual usage when it really meant to be something done CORPORATELY....as in the issue of "WE SPEAK!!!!!" in a Church where all members of a fellowship come together to declare what it is God has said/tackle an issue. And on the issue, it's true enough since it was often the case that many of the commands Christ gave for establishing things in groups, ( Matthew 18:15-17 Matthew 18 , Matthew 18:19-21 , John 20:21-23 /John 20, James 5:15-17/James 5 /etc). That's not to say the disciples never had times where individually they did not bind things up---just as it was concerning what it is that you wrote on with the disciples/believers walking in authority to bind up spirits and declare things. But there's something to be said, I think, on the issue of corporately taking care of a problem facing ones' nation.

Even in the issue of spiritual warfare, the reality is that many of them were spoken with the intention of GROUP application rather than just for the individual...for there are some things we cannot stand in faith for apart from STANDING TOGETHER. Even when considering the issue of things like Spiritual Warfare, as Ephesians 6:10-27 notes, people often make it seem as if it's something we must face alone. But wven when considering things such as the ARMOR of GOD, the reality is that people forget that in Roman Culture there was always FRONT armor for the soldiers---but none for the backside....and the reason why was that the Soldiers had no choice but to go forward since their backsides were covered by the soldiers behind them who were marching...as the armies marched in rows.

As one of my brothers in Christ said best when he and I were dialouging on the very issue:
And in the body, it was never solely an individualistic walk that was the focus.

​

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Temptinfates said:

If my prayers alone before Adonai are not enough, then I accect the answer I get or don't get. .

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God is faithful...

Qnts2 said:

Ok, since the RCC relates communion with the saints with asking for favors, prayer from the dead saints, I would say that is a proper understanding of what the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints is. At least for the RCC.

So, what do you consider the proper understanding of the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints to be?

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It's been explained above by others. But I was refering to Vis' notion that the Communion of Saints is about "communing with the dead", which of course even the RCC's understanding does not align with.

You know, of course that in some elements of Judaism intercession is asked of deceased tzadikim. Seems to me that Judaism is where the RCC and EO got it from.

Temptinfates said:

As far as what I see in scripture. I have an advocate with Adonai and my prayers are indeed heard by Adonai. I need no other.

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The question often comes up whether or not God always hears our prayers.

In Job 42 God was so annoyed with Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite that He told them to seek Job's intercession for them. IOW, a tzadik had to pray for them. The NT also speaks of sin hindering prayers- 1 Pet. 3

The first thing a faithful person does when they have a problem is ask others to pray for them. Why? Because we are commanded to do so (James 5:16) and because we can intercede for each other based on our unity in Messiah (eg. the communion of saints). The question then arises- would you ask a holy person or an unreligious person to pray for you? Obviously the holy one. Who then are the holiest?

That's roughly the logic train of the RCC here..

ContraMundum said:

The question often comes up whether or not God always hears our prayers.

In Job 42 God was so annoyed with Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite that He told them to seek Job's intercession for them. IOW, a tzadik had to pray for them. The NT also speaks of sin hindering prayers- 1 Pet. 3

The first thing a faithful person does when they have a problem is ask others to pray for them. Why? Because we are commanded to do so (James 5:16) and because we can intercede for each other based on our unity in Messiah (eg. the communion of saints). The question then arises- would you ask a holy person or an unreligious person to pray for you? Obviously the holy one. Who then are the holiest?

That's roughly the logic train of the RCC here..

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What? Are you advocating that we pray to a deceased person who might be (or have been, as the case would be) the holiest person we know to intercede or that we just stick to the holiest that we personally know who is alive on this earth? -- I can go with that, that it's scriptural; but praying to someone who has passed to do the job, just isn't scriptural. Isn't there a passage or two against doing something like that?

yedida said:

What? Are you advocating that we pray to a deceased person who might be (or have been, as the case would be) the holiest person we know to intercede or that we just stick to the holiest that we personally know who is alive on this earth? -- I can go with that, that it's scriptural; but praying to someone who has passed to do the job, just isn't scriptural. Isn't there a passage or two against doing something like that?

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I think it's more like those who have gone to Heaven are holy. I suspect that is why the Vatican makes so much fuss over confirming the salvation of someone who has passed in order to assure the congregations that the ones they are asking for intercession from are actually in Heaven, the place where one is at their holiest.

I see the logic, and it does have a temporal application (the minute we ask someone we know loves God to pray for us) but I am a fence sitter on this. In my practice we do not ask for intercession from individual saints, but we acknowledge that they do in fact intercede for us in Heaven (based on Bible verses). However, there is still a very developed and interesting theology about the Communion of Saints worth exploring that does not have to become RC.

ContraMundum said:

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You know, of course that in some elements of Judaism intercession is asked of deceased tzadikim. Seems to me that Judaism is where the RCC and EO got it from.

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Starting with what occurred with Rachael weeping for her children ( Rachel's Tomb :: Jewish Media Resources ) and later what happened in the Maccabees account.

ContraMundum said:

In my practice we do not ask for intercession from individual saints, but we acknowledge that they do in fact intercede for us in Heaven (based on Bible verses). However, there is still a very developed and interesting theology about the Communion of Saints worth exploring that does not have to become RC.

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Right there with ya on that, although I'm curious as the theology of Communion of Saints apart from RC that you had in mind.

ContraMundum said:

The question often comes up whether or not God always hears our prayers.

In Job 42 God was so annoyed with Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite that He told them to seek Job's intercession for them. IOW, a tzadik had to pray for them. The NT also speaks of sin hindering prayers- 1 Pet. 3

The first thing a faithful person does when they have a problem is ask others to pray for them. Why? Because we are commanded to do so (James 5:16) and because we can intercede for each other based on our unity in Messiah (eg. the communion of saints). .

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Very well said....and something the early Jewish system was very much focused on when it came to the very background of the priesthood.

On a seperate note, some of it does get interesting when considering how there were times where it didn't seem to be the case that one HAD to repent before the Lord decided to forgive them. Specifically, I'm thinking in regards to the dynamic of intercessory prayer. If aware of what often occurred with others such as Daniel 9 or Ezra in Ezra 9-10 or Nehemiah (Nehemiah 8-9) and Moses (Exodus 32-33, Numbers 14, etc) where they prayed for forgiveness of their nation's sins as if THEY did so---even though they themselves were innocent, the concept of identification seems to become more evident.


This is seen even with the Messiah, in regards to how Galatians 2:4 speaks very clearly on the issue of law. For Jesus was born under the Law and of a woman. He was born as a Jew, subject to GOD'S Law and fulfilling it perfectly/FLAWLESSLY. Thus, Jesus was the PERFECT Sacrifice because although he was fully Human, he never sinned..and His death brought freedom for us who were enslaved to sin so that we could be adopted as sons of God. TJesus had to keep the Law/walk by due to his being perfect and without sin...and its why Christ was to be BAPTIZED in Luke 3:21-22 and Matthew 3:13-17. For Baptism could be said to have been only for sinful man...and yet Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit had no issue with it. Baptism is a sign of repentance from sin, yet Jesus did not need to be to be baptized for sin since he NEVER sinned.....and in asking to be baptized, Jesus seemed to be taking one more step in fulfilling his earthly mission of identifying with our humanity/sin. As Jesus said, his baptism was to fulfill all righteousness....and by endorsing the rite of baptism, Jesus was giving us an example to follow...and he was being baptized for the sins of the nation.


There are many JEWS who've often objected to Christ being the Messiah on the basis of EZEKIEL 18 and how the Lord does not punish others for the sins of one man.......and when it comes to the issue of men seeking God's forgiveness, its interesting to me that its ignored in one context while seen as an issue in another.

As one source said best:

I do not have the belief that Adonai hears my prayers. He has let me know that he has done so. I don't hope that he hears. I know. When he let's one know this, then there is absolutely no doubt about it. It is not just mere circumstances that provide the idea of my prayers being answered. This is not might be, could be, or I hope. When he makes it that clear to a person, there is no doubt that he hears prayers.
He has spoke through people such as a pastors wife in front of a crowd of people to me and it was taped, btw. That is jut one time it has happened out of many. But, at that particular saying, it started out as "William, you have been crying out to me for a long time. There is a problem with your family....(and at the end).. You will stand for me. You will praise my name and give me Glory".
That alone would not prove my case in court. It was enough of a problem---the witchcraft in my family---for Adonai to get my attention and let me know it was him, that he was going to remove it from my family, And that in his timing he would clean it up. We are still working through the process.
When I say that he hears my prayers, it is not a guess. Other people know that it has been bad enough that he has let me know he has heard me and that he is doing something about it. I hope this sheds light on when I say that he hears my prayers, there is no doubt at all.

Not onlt does he hear my prayers, but he indeed gives me prayers to pray. It is usually for one person in my family. It often includes asking Adonai to have mercy on them. So, not only does he hear my prayers, but, has indeed given me certain prayers to pray.

Temptinfates

Temptinfates said:

I do not have the belief that Adonai hears my prayers. He has let me know that he has done so. I don't hope that he hears. I know. When he let's one know this, then there is absolutely no doubt about it. It is not just mere circumstances that provide the idea of my prayers being answered. This is not might be, could be, or I hope. When he makes it that clear to a person, there is no doubt that he hears prayers.
He has spoke through people such as a pastors wife in front of a crowd of people to me and it was taped, btw. That is jut one time it has happened out of many. But, at that particular saying, it started out as "William, you have been crying out to me for a long time. There is a problem with your family....(and at the end).. You will stand for me. You will praise my name and give me Glory".
That alone would not prove my case in court. It was enough of a problem---the witchcraft in my family---for Adonai to get my attention and let me know it was him, that he was going to remove it from my family, And that in his timing he would clean it up. We are still working through the process.
When I say that he hears my prayers, it is not a guess. Other people know that it has been bad enough that he has let me know he has heard me and that he is doing something about it. I hope this sheds light on when I say that he hears my prayers, there is no doubt at all.

Not onlt does he hear my prayers, but he indeed gives me prayers to pray. It is usually for one person in my family. It often includes asking Adonai to have mercy on them. So, not only does he hear my prayers, but, has indeed given me certain prayers to pray.

Temptinfates

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I think people who have strong faith know that God hears their prayers. We are assured of this in scripture. Famous hymn about or two about it as well. I was just sayin' the scriptures give examples of prayers not being heard or hindered by sin. I would hope that anyone's confidence in being heard in prayer was well founded. But I do think some people may have delusions about being heard too.

Temptinfates said:

I do not have the belief that Adonai hears my prayers. He has let me know that he has done so. I don't hope that he hears. I know. When he let's one know this, then there is absolutely no doubt about it. It is not just mere circumstances that provide the idea of my prayers being answered. This is not might be, could be, or I hope. When he makes it that clear to a person, there is no doubt that he hears prayers.
He has spoke through people such as a pastors wife in front of a crowd of people to me and it was taped, btw. That is jut one time it has happened out of many. But, at that particular saying, it started out as "William, you have been crying out to me for a long time. There is a problem with your family....(and at the end).. You will stand for me. You will praise my name and give me Glory".
That alone would not prove my case in court. It was enough of a problem---the witchcraft in my family---for Adonai to get my attention and let me know it was him, that he was going to remove it from my family, And that in his timing he would clean it up. We are still working through the process.
When I say that he hears my prayers, it is not a guess. Other people know that it has been bad enough that he has let me know he has heard me and that he is doing something about it. I hope this sheds light on when I say that he hears my prayers, there is no doubt at all.

Not onlt does he hear my prayers, but he indeed gives me prayers to pray. It is usually for one person in my family. It often includes asking Adonai to have mercy on them. So, not only does he hear my prayers, but, has indeed given me certain prayers to pray.

Temptinfates

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Well said Temptinfates.....Yes, God has led me know that He hears my prayers as well. It is astonishing to know this!



Could God the Father be the most emotional being in the universe?
https://www.facebook.com/notes/fans...otional-being-in-the-universe/379956208748564

(Pastor Rick Joyner from visionary dream 1995):
“Many times, the broken notes from earth caused all of heaven to weep with joy as they beheld My Father being touched. A few holy ones struggling to express their adoration for Him has many times caused Him to weep. Every time I see My brethren touch Him with true worship, it makes the pain and grief I knew on the cross seem like a small price to pay. Nothing brings Me more joy than when you worship My Father. I went to the cross so that you could worship Him through Me. It is in this worship that you, the Father and I are all one.

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ContraMundum said:

I think people who have strong faith know that God hears their prayers. We are assured of this in scripture. Famous hymn about or two about it as well. I was just sayin' the scriptures give examples of prayers not being heard or hindered by sin. I would hope that anyone's confidence in being heard in prayer was well founded. But I do think some people may have delusions about being heard too.

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When does one upgrade from this "communion with the saints" to having "Yeshua interceded on their behalf before the Father" or "come bodly before the throne of grace".. when and where and how do they graduate in faith to this level?