Considering moving away from the Baptist title..

Dec 8, 2011
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I've been doing a lot of Bible reading lately. A lot. And in doing this, I find many of the "rules and regulations" in a church, specifically a Baptist church, to not really have any basis in scripture. The more I ponder, read, and pray, it truly seems like modern day Baptist beliefs are nothing more than man made tradition.

-singing of hymns only
-not allowing any instruments besides a piano
-requiring men to wear suits if in any form of ministry or you just can't do it
-the teaching of small children and teenagers completely unbiblical things such as its a sin to hold hands and kiss/hug before marriage, it's a sin to go to the movies because it's the appearance of evil, it's a sin to drink (getting drunk is a sin, drinking is most definitely not) etc
-strict rules and regulations such as if you don't go to church every Sunday, there must be sin in your life, and you must not be right with God because of your lack of involvement with "church"

All of these things are unbiblical, and down right disgusting. Church has become a cesspool of self righteousness. It has become a cold religion. People care so much what others think of each other instead of glorifying God. Here's a news flash:

We have NO RIGHTEOUSNESS. WE ONLY HAVE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS CHRIST. Stop trying to LIE your way into the good dispositions of others! NO ONE is good. We are sinners for life. It's a tattoo that cannot be removed. Yet people try to cover it up with fancy clothes and good deeds so their "brethren" will look at them and say, "wow! He must be close to The Lord!" Disgusting. Self righteousness. Selfish.

Since when was meeting together about us? It's about Christ, God, and worshipping Him!

This very fact is proved by walking into the Christian Advice section of these forums. You have people from all over the world scared to death that God doesn't love them because of what they've been taught.

"Is this a sin?"
"Is that a sin?"
"Is watching this movie a sin?"

Read the BIBLE and stop listening to the garbage people spew at you. We are under the law of FAITH. The Mosaic Law was for the Israelites. Not us. We are no longer under a schoolmaster. We are under the love and grace of Jesus Christ.
 
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motherprayer

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-singing of hymns only
-not allowing any instruments besides a piano
-requiring men to wear suits if in any form of ministry or you just can't do it
-the teaching of small children and teenagers completely unbiblical things such as its a sin to hold hands and kiss/hug before marriage, it's a sin to go to the movies because it's the appearance of evil, it's a sin to drink (getting drunk is a sin, drinking is most definitely not) etc
-strict rules and regulations such as if you don't go to church every Sunday, there must be sin in your life, and you must not be right with God because of your lack of involvement with "church"

Holy cow! I go to a Baptist church and it is nothing like that! (Now I understand why my pastor always says other Baptist preachers don't like him lol)

We have instruments, and my pastor himself plays the drums during praise, which sometimes includes hymns, but often is contemporary gospel.

We go to the movies, in fellowship actually lol

My pastor agrees with you (and me) that we are all sinful, and all have things to work on.

He definitely is against getting drunk, but drinking itself is okay.

And what is funny, I consider him to be the most hardcore Bible-preaching man I have ever seen.
 
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Dec 8, 2011
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Holy cow! I go to a Baptist church and it is nothing like that! (Now I understand why my pastor always says other Baptist preachers don't like him lol)

We have instruments, and my pastor himself plays the drums during praise, which sometimes includes hymns, but often is contemporary gospel.

We go to the movies, in fellowship actually lol

My pastor agrees with you (and me) that we are all sinful, and all have things to work on.

He definitely is against getting drunk, but drinking itself is okay.

And what is funny, I consider him to be the most hardcore Bible-preaching man I have ever seen.

And that's how it SHOULD be, actual Biblical truth. But no, traditions of man somehow trump that in today's Baptist church.
 
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motherprayer

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And that's how it SHOULD be, actual Biblical truth. But no, traditions of man somehow trump that in today's Baptist church.

Crazy. If you live in SEPA, come to Norristown Baptist. You will be in for a truly pleasant surprise.

P.S. I'm not a Baptist either, I just go to a church that says Baptist in the title.
 
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AndrewK9

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I am not sure about the most of them you listed there but my church has a guitar, it's like a normal one, but it's not like they only use a piano.

As far as asking "is such and such activity a sin?" it would depend on what it involves. You should not have to debate over whether or not you think it's okay to watch a R-rated movie or wearing something provocative. Especially if it might cause another believer to stumble.
 
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motherprayer

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So then, you think "accept Christ" is Biblical, but you can't see where the things you list are Biblical?

The instrumental part isn't.

Hymns aren't.

And one thing I could never understand with Baptists is how most churches seem to have a heirarchy among congregants based on what clothes they wear?
 
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Hi Chris,

You gave a list of 'baptist' practices that I quite honestly don't believe are really 'baptist' practices. They may be what your particular fellowship practices and so you should find another fellowship if you are uncomfortable with what yours teaches.

-singing of hymns only
-not allowing any instruments besides a piano
-requiring men to wear suits if in any form of ministry or you just can't do it
-the teaching of small children and teenagers completely unbiblical things such as its a sin to hold hands and kiss/hug before marriage, it's a sin to go to the movies because it's the appearance of evil, it's a sin to drink (getting drunk is a sin, drinking is most definitely not) etc
-strict rules and regulations such as if you don't go to church every Sunday, there must be sin in your life, and you must not be right with God because of your lack of involvement with "church"

I've been in a lot of baptist fellowships. I never get dressed up for fellowship. I'm a come as you are kind of follower as regards clothing. Our praise team has an electric keyboard, a grand piano, 3 guitars and an electronic drum set and when they play you feel like you're listening to the original artist. We are pretty contemporary in our music and our allowance and acceptance of people who want to raise their hands in supplication to their Creator as they sing His praises and glorify Him. I'm really not involved in the children's ministry, but I have a teenager and I've never heard him come to me with complaints that people are raggin' on him because he holds hands with his girlfriend. My days of drinking are long over and I personally would not encourage anyone to drink, but neither will I condemn or chastise someone who has a glass of wine with dinner, but drinking is very, very deceptive to the one who is drinking. Having spent some time counseling addicts I can tell you that there are a lot of them who tend to support their habit with that old cry, "Jesus drank wine!"

The problem that I believe fellowships have with this attitude that they can lay down and enforce biblical standards is that that isn't their job. Salvation is a personal truth. You may receive God's promise of salvation, but your wife or children may not. It's up to me or you as an individual to pray, study, pray, fellowship, pray, learn, pray, teach, pray and love God. You! No one else can do it for you and that's the rub. These fellowships that enforce rules such as what you're posting think that they can make you saved! By the way, there is no biblical instruction to go to 'church' every week. All we are told is that we should not forsake the 'fellowship' of believers. I don't really equate the word 'fellowship' here as 'church'. I'm pretty confident that Paul is instructing us to be with one another. Your closest friends should be other believers. You should, from time to time, join in with other believers and 'fellowship' with them. You should definately fellowship with other believers from time to time in communion. But that God expects His children to be in a 'church' building every Sunday, I'm not in agreement with that. However, it again goes back to the heart of the person. If he truly loves God and loves God's people, then he will regularly be in fellowship with them. He will of his own know what is right behavior as a child of the awesome Creator of all things, who loves him, and seeks his companionship.

Now, don't go off the deep end on the other side. Yes, your pastor should teach the truth. Yes, your pastor should counsel in the truth. Yes, your fellowship should uphold and encourage each other in the way of righteousness - but no, you cannot make someone else follow godly prinicples. It must be the attitude of the individual's heart that he loves God. That he desires to do right before God.

If someone were to ask me if they should drink? I will simply tell them that I don't drink and I think that it is playing with a very, very dangerous temptation. I will tell them that Scriptures encourage us to be clear minded and definately speaks against drunkeness as it leads to debauchery and a whole list of sin. I will tell them that from my own experience there are people out there that use the excuse that they see some christian drink as a support for their own drunkeness and it therefore can very easily cause another to stumble. So, I would ask: Why would you?

Water is better for you, and certianly to me, soda or tea tastes better. So, if you're up to the challenge: Why would you?

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted
 
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wholigan11

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-singing of hymns only
-not allowing any instruments besides a piano
-requiring men to wear suits if in any form of ministry or you just can't do it
-the teaching of small children and teenagers completely unbiblical things such as its a sin to hold hands and kiss/hug before marriage, it's a sin to go to the movies because it's the appearance of evil, it's a sin to drink (getting drunk is a sin, drinking is most definitely not) etc
-strict rules and regulations such as if you don't go to church every Sunday, there must be sin in your life, and you must not be right with God because of your lack of involvement with "church"

Whoa! It sounds like you need to find a new church because my church (and obviously a few more people on here) does not do that.

- We don't sing just hymns; we do the offering, the message, and then they have an opportunity to be saved by Christ.
- We have many instruments at church besides the piano; we've got the guitar, the drums, etc. and on some Christmas music they play bells.
- I do see the men in suits sometimes but they don't always dress that way
- There is nothing wrong with holding hands, and kissing and hugging before marriage; there's nothing wrong with the movies (most of the time; depends what you're seeing and your reasons for watching it); I personally don't drink but I don't agree with getting drunk.
- There's different reasons why people don't go to church every single Sunday; they could be on vacation, they could be sick, they could be out of town, etc. but if they're continuously missing church, then something is going on.

I would find a new Baptist church to attend to.
 
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Bella Vita

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That is some Baptists churches but not all I am southern Baptist and my church is awesome we have amazing worship with a full band. We dress in jeans and hoodies, have service on Saturday nights. We don't believe drinking is a sin only getting drunk like you said. And we don't belive in having sex before marriage or living together but holding hands and kissing is fine. Southern Baptist doctrine is the Bible we are 100% about scripture and it's infallable truth. So I say go southern Baptist and find an awesome church!

My church!
http://relevantpeoria.com/
 
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MatthewDiscipleofGod

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I never heard of a Baptist anywhere that doesn't allow other instruments to be played. Even the most conservative Baptist churches I know of allow for instruments such as the flute, trumpet and violin. As for drinking you really need to examine your heart. Do you care if you cause someone else to stumble by your drinking? Do you think that you may just have one to many and get a buzz which would be a sin? Most movies are trash so in most cases would be a sin to watch. Also, it has been shown time and time again that a person in a Hawaiian shirt, shorts and sandals will take things less serious than a person that dresses up in a suit. Of course it is the heart that matters but the heart is reflected by our actions. To many churches are just social clubs. Most of the week people live like the rest of the world. Then they wonder why things are going the way that they do.
 
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AndOne

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I've been doing a lot of Bible reading lately. A lot. And in doing this, I find many of the "rules and regulations" in a church, specifically a Baptist church, to not really have any basis in scripture. The more I ponder, read, and pray, it truly seems like modern day Baptist beliefs are nothing more than man made tradition.

-singing of hymns only
-not allowing any instruments besides a piano
-requiring men to wear suits if in any form of ministry or you just can't do it
-the teaching of small children and teenagers completely unbiblical things such as its a sin to hold hands and kiss/hug before marriage, it's a sin to go to the movies because it's the appearance of evil, it's a sin to drink (getting drunk is a sin, drinking is most definitely not) etc
-strict rules and regulations such as if you don't go to church every Sunday, there must be sin in your life, and you must not be right with God because of your lack of involvement with "church"

All of these things are unbiblical, and down right disgusting. Church has become a cesspool of self righteousness. It has become a cold religion. People care so much what others think of each other instead of glorifying God. Here's a news flash:

We have NO RIGHTEOUSNESS. WE ONLY HAVE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS CHRIST. Stop trying to LIE your way into the good dispositions of others! NO ONE is good. We are sinners for life. It's a tattoo that cannot be removed. Yet people try to cover it up with fancy clothes and good deeds so their "brethren" will look at them and say, "wow! He must be close to The Lord!" Disgusting. Self righteousness. Selfish.

Since when was meeting together about us? It's about Christ, God, and worshipping Him!

This very fact is proved by walking into the Christian Advice section of these forums. You have people from all over the world scared to death that God doesn't love them because of what they've been taught.

"Is this a sin?"
"Is that a sin?"
"Is watching this movie a sin?"

Read the BIBLE and stop listening to the garbage people spew at you. We are under the law of FAITH. The Mosaic Law was for the Israelites. Not us. We are no longer under a schoolmaster. We are under the love and grace of Jesus Christ.
You sure you don't have baptists mixed up with another denomination?
 
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motherprayer

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You sure you don't have baptists mixed up with another denomination?

It sounds a bit like Fundamentalism. My church has fundamentalist roots, and my pastor says his old Fundy friends stopped talking to him because he's got drums in his church lol
 
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Eric Hibbert

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I've been doing a lot of Bible reading lately. A lot. And in doing this, I find many of the "rules and regulations" in a church, specifically a Baptist church, to not really have any basis in scripture. The more I ponder, read, and pray, it truly seems like modern day Baptist beliefs are nothing more than man made tradition.

-singing of hymns only
-not allowing any instruments besides a piano
-requiring men to wear suits if in any form of ministry or you just can't do it
-the teaching of small children and teenagers completely unbiblical things such as its a sin to hold hands and kiss/hug before marriage, it's a sin to go to the movies because it's the appearance of evil, it's a sin to drink (getting drunk is a sin, drinking is most definitely not) etc
-strict rules and regulations such as if you don't go to church every Sunday, there must be sin in your life, and you must not be right with God because of your lack of involvement with "church"

All of these things are unbiblical, and down right disgusting. Church has become a cesspool of self righteousness. It has become a cold religion. People care so much what others think of each other instead of glorifying God. Here's a news flash:

We have NO RIGHTEOUSNESS. WE ONLY HAVE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS CHRIST. Stop trying to LIE your way into the good dispositions of others! NO ONE is good. We are sinners for life. It's a tattoo that cannot be removed. Yet people try to cover it up with fancy clothes and good deeds so their "brethren" will look at them and say, "wow! He must be close to The Lord!" Disgusting. Self righteousness. Selfish.

Since when was meeting together about us? It's about Christ, God, and worshipping Him!

This very fact is proved by walking into the Christian Advice section of these forums. You have people from all over the world scared to death that God doesn't love them because of what they've been taught.

"Is this a sin?"
"Is that a sin?"
"Is watching this movie a sin?"

Read the BIBLE and stop listening to the garbage people spew at you. We are under the law of FAITH. The Mosaic Law was for the Israelites. Not us. We are no longer under a schoolmaster. We are under the love and grace of Jesus Christ.

I have to admit, I think it's kind of funny that you say the meeting isn't about us, but is about God, and then proceed to tell us everything about the meeting you feel is unacceptable.

So, now that you've told us how a church should bend to meet your tastes, what are you willing to do to submit to a church? What are you willing to do to see that a weaker brother doesn't stumble?

What are you willing to do to see that the movies and entertainment you take in pass the Ephesians 4 test?

Or do you even care?

Tell me this: is it really so bad that those of us who were raised in a generation where you show your reverence by the way you dress, dress for church and not like we're going to a Jimmy Buffett concert?

Do you really need to be entertained in church so badly that you can't go ninety minutes without hearing drums and guitars or rock music?

Are hymns such as "'Tis Finished, the Messiah Dies"...

’Tis finished! The Messiah dies,
Cut off for sins, but not His own:
Accomplished is the sacrifice,
The great redeeming work is done.
’Tis finished! all the debt is paid;
Justice divine is satisfied;
The grand and full atonement made;
God for a guilty world hath died.
The veil is rent in Christ alone;
The living way to Heaven is seen;
The middle wall is broken down,
And all mankind may enter in.
The types and figures are fulfilled;
Exacted is the legal pain;
The precious promises are sealed;
The spotless Lamb of God is slain.
The reign of sin and death is o’er,
And all may live from sin set free;
Satan hath lost his mortal power;
’Tis swallowed up in victory.
Saved from the legal curse I am,
My Savior hangs on yonder tree:
See there the meek, expiring Lamb!
’Tis finished! He expires for me.
Accepted in the Well-beloved,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
I see the bar to heaven removed;
And all Thy merits, Lord, are mine.
Death, hell, and sin are now subdued;
All grace is now to sinners given;
And lo, I plead the atoning blood,
And in Thy right I claim Thy Heaven!

...really so boring to you that you have to suppliment it with shallow modern "worship" songs?

Isn't there enough of the world...you know, in the world?

Why are we always expected to bend to the world and those who want to be entertained?

The Bible tells us that we're to mature and points to older saints for examples. But the Church today seems to be bent on marginalizing older saints in favor of being "hip" and "relevant".

Church should be different. Church should be that place that the world sees is so important that we put on our best for the worship of God and the proclamation of His Word, not just a casual gettogether where we sing about Jesus, our girlfriend.

Many of us get enough of the world the other six days a week. Why can't we have just one day that's about church, the way it's supposed to be?

I understand that we live in a post-MTV world, but what I don't understand is what was wrong with church that people felt it was so bad.
 
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seekingsister

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I have to admit, I think it's kind of funny that you say the meeting isn't about us, but is about God, and then proceed to tell us everything about the meeting you feel is unacceptable.

So, now that you've told us how a church should bend to meet your tastes, what are you willing to do to submit to a church? What are you willing to do to see that a weaker brother doesn't stumble?

What are you willing to do to see that the movies and entertainment you take in pass the Ephesians 4 test?

Or do you even care?

Tell me this: is it really so bad that those of us who were raised in a generation where you show your reverence by the way you dress, dress for church and not like we're going to a Jimmy Buffett concert?

Do you really need to be entertained in church so badly that you can't go ninety minutes without hearing drums and guitars or rock music?

Are hymns such as "'Tis Finished, the Messiah Dies"...

’Tis finished! The Messiah dies,
Cut off for sins, but not His own:
Accomplished is the sacrifice,
The great redeeming work is done.
’Tis finished! all the debt is paid;
Justice divine is satisfied;
The grand and full atonement made;
God for a guilty world hath died.
The veil is rent in Christ alone;
The living way to Heaven is seen;
The middle wall is broken down,
And all mankind may enter in.
The types and figures are fulfilled;
Exacted is the legal pain;
The precious promises are sealed;
The spotless Lamb of God is slain.
The reign of sin and death is o’er,
And all may live from sin set free;
Satan hath lost his mortal power;
’Tis swallowed up in victory.
Saved from the legal curse I am,
My Savior hangs on yonder tree:
See there the meek, expiring Lamb!
’Tis finished! He expires for me.
Accepted in the Well-beloved,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
I see the bar to heaven removed;
And all Thy merits, Lord, are mine.
Death, hell, and sin are now subdued;
All grace is now to sinners given;
And lo, I plead the atoning blood,
And in Thy right I claim Thy Heaven!

...really so boring to you that you have to suppliment it with shallow modern "worship" songs?

Isn't there enough of the world...you know, in the world?

Why are we always expected to bend to the world and those who want to be entertained?

The Bible tells us that we're to mature and points to older saints for examples. But the Church today seems to be bent on marginalizing older saints in favor of being "hip" and "relevant".

Church should be different. Church should be that place that the world sees is so important that we put on our best for the worship of God and the proclamation of His Word, not just a casual gettogether where we sing about Jesus, our girlfriend.

Many of us get enough of the world the other six days a week. Why can't we have just one day that's about church, the way it's supposed to be?

I understand that we live in a post-MTV world, but what I don't understand is what was wrong with church that people felt it was so bad.


The problem with your view is that it fails to acknowledge the wide variety of Christian practices throughout the world. If you walk into a Baptist church in Texas, and then one in Brazil, and then one in South Africa, and one in the Philippines, you will see dramatic differences. As long as they are glorifying God, I don’t think it matters that the style and tone are different.

I’m also unclear as to why you think church music needs to be dramatically different from secular music. If you Handel’s “Messiah” compared to contemporary non-Christian works they are fairly similar. Same with “Battle Hymn of the Republic.” Most of the “traditional” music sounded just like popular music did in its era.
 
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motherprayer

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I understand that we live in a post-MTV world, but what I don't understand is what was wrong with church that people felt it was so bad.

I do love your whole post, but I wanted to highlight this. The problem does not lie with the church, but the world's idea of what "everything" should be. Interesting how Scripture tells us to be not conformed of this world, and yet modern-day Christians do everything in their power to do exactly that! Scripture says be a new creature and to put on the whole armor of God, and modern-day churches encourage people to remain in their sin, saying whosoever will, may come, and while that is true, we should strive to be better out of a gratitude to our Lord.

I love what you wrote, because it highlights everything that is wrong with modern Christian culture. Churches that actually preach and practice holiness are few and far between.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
 
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