No salvation outside the Church

Cain Spencer · Dec 16, 2012

What's stopping salvation outside the Church?

If it's nothing and my question is inert, then what does the Church mean by "no salvation outside of the Church"?

Eternally Optimistic · Dec 16, 2012

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

See specifically 846-848

Cain Spencer · Dec 16, 2012

Eternally Optimistic said:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

See specifically 846-848

Thank you.

846

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Click to expand...

I was baptized in a Methodist church. Does that count? Am I "saved"?

WarriorAngel · Dec 16, 2012

Depends if you are vincibly ignorant or invincibly ignorant.

Invincible means you did not know the truth behind the Catholic Church being the first, the sole and the Lord's own Church.

If you argue against it, even though the facts are readily available to know, then it becomes denial and you no longer are included in invincible ignorance.
If you never knew the history, and the knowledge of such - it is vincible.

You have been in this forum a long time, and you have discussed these things in GT and so forth. So you alone can answer.

The difference is denial vs pure lack of any knowledge.

Cain Spencer · Dec 16, 2012

WarriorAngel said:
Depends if you are vincibly ignorant or invincibly ignorant.

Invincible means you did not know the truth behind the Catholic Church being the first, the sole and the Lord's own Church.

If you argue against it, even though the facts are readily available to know, then it becomes denial and you no longer are included in invincible ignorance.
If you never knew the history, and the knowledge of such - it is vincible.

You have been in this forum a long time, and you have discussed these things in GT and so forth. So you alone can answer.

The difference is denial vs pure lack of any knowledge.

It is admittedly denial then. I left because I disagree with 3 teachings, 2 of which are infallible.

Eternally Optimistic · Dec 16, 2012

Cain Spencer said:
Thank you.

I was baptized in a Methodist church. Does that count? Am I "saved"?

For that I suggest CCC 838.

To paraphrase a quote from the Orthodox I believe, while we know where the Church is, we don't know where it is not.

WarriorAngel · Dec 16, 2012

Cain Spencer said:
It is admittedly denial then. I left because I disagree with 3 teachings, 2 of which are infallible.

Then you know the answer.

The purpose behind humility and submission is not having things our way, for we are imperfect humans, but tho we may not understand the wisdom behind such teachings - we submit and let God reveal them to us slowly.

Anything else is putting ourselves above what the Lord handed down - and suggesting we are above His Wisdom.

God isnt easy to comprehend, but we dont not believe in Him because we always understand His ways. His teachings are as complex as he is. But they are for our good, one way or the other. Tho we dont understand why or how, they are for us.

Let go of the human ideas and then ask what it is that bothers you, and why they are true.
You will get an answer - then you must chose either obedience [even if it is most difficult - knowing God will reveal His truths to the humbleness of His servants eventually in a grand way] or human stubbornness.

Cain Spencer · Dec 16, 2012

Eternally Optimistic said:
For that I suggest CCC 838.

Thank you again.

To paraphrase a quote from the Orthodox I believe, while we know where the Church is, we don't know where it is not.

That's a very beautiful quote.

St_Barnabus · Dec 16, 2012

Cain Spencer said:
It is admittedly denial then. I left because I disagree with 3 teachings, 2 of which are infallible.

Hi Cain,
What three teachings upset you enough to leave the church?

St_Barnabus · Dec 16, 2012

Sorry, duplicate post.

Rhamiel · Dec 16, 2012

The Church is the Body of Christ
St.Paul makes this analogy in his letters to the Corinthians
to be outside the Body of Christ is to be outside of salvation
for what is salvation if it is not union with Christ.

heresy and schism are serious sins that will put your soul at risk
but only God can judge a persons soul
so I will not sit around and say if you are saved or unsaved

God bless you my dear brother in Christ
I hope I did not come across as either cold or vague

Cain Spencer · Dec 16, 2012

Rhamiel said:
The Church is the Body of Christ
St.Paul makes this analogy in his letters to the Corinthians
to be outside the Body of Christ is to be outside of salvation
for what is salvation if it is not union with Christ.

heresy and schism are serious sins that will put your soul at risk
but only God can judge a persons soul
so I will not sit around and say if you are saved or unsaved

I will not take to heretical teachings. I will however, chose to ignore those Catholic teachings that seem so morally wrong. It's more a case of turning my back rather than hopping ideals.

God bless you my dear brother in Christ
I hope I did not come across as either cold or vague

It's fine, I understand your intentions.

Cain Spencer · Dec 16, 2012

St_Barnabus said:
Hi Cain,
What three teachings upset you enough to leave the church?

St Barnabus. Maybe when my mind can take it I'll open threads here explaining the issues. But as for just now it's too much for me.

I have tried, it wasn't a snap decision.

WarriorAngel · Dec 16, 2012

Cain Spencer said:
St Barnabus. Maybe when my mind can take it I'll open threads here explaining the issues. But as for just now it's too much for me.

I have tried, it wasn't a snap decision.

Letting you know - you can only 'ask' questions regarding the teachings, but it would be against the rules to make a thread noting why they wont work.

It's best to ask why we believe in 'such and such' and ask why it exists.
Depending on your own conclusions is where many fell away through out history - even in the times of the Apostles.
Simon - for instance. Held to his own way of doing things - but tradition shows us he departed from the faith of which Peter decisively stated he would if he didnt let go of his own preferences.

Not considered to have been saved thru his own judgment on things.

He believed he could purchase the gifts of the Spirit. We know it is wrong via Peter - but he still followed his own ways even after Baptism. IE - its best to conform, ask questions, get the historical and theological reasoning instead of depending on your own impulses.

Tallguy88 · Dec 16, 2012

Just so you know, there are few who still believe that those outside the visible bounds of the Catholic Church will be damned simply for not being Catholic. Most people I know take it to mean that Christians, regardless of affiliation, can be saved.

Cain Spencer · Dec 16, 2012

WarriorAngel said:
Letting you know - you can only 'ask' questions regarding the teachings, but it would be against the rules to make a thread noting why they wont work.

That's what I initially thought.

The problem is that I already know the answers and they don't help. So I chose to leave the subject dead and buried. There's no point bringing it up is there? I think that even in time that wont change but who knows what could happen.

It's best to ask why we believe in 'such and such' and ask why it exists.

Yes! I should ask how is it that others can accept the teachings. There's an idea.

Depending on your own conclusions is where many fell away through out history - even in the times of the Apostles.
Simon - for instance. Held to his own way of doing things - but tradition shows us he departed from the faith of which Peter decisively stated he would if he didnt let go of his own preferences.

Not considered to have been saved thru his own judgment on things.

He believed he could purchase the gifts of the Spirit. We know it is wrong via Peter - but he still followed his own ways even after Baptism. IE - its best to conform, ask questions, get the historical and theological reasoning instead of depending on your own impulses.

It's hard to accept some of the things God has done. His actions in the Old Testament. Then also it could make you reject the things He "says" too (scripture) in the New Testament. What has happened to me is, I had doubts about certain NT scripture, which lead to doubts in other parts. Then I thought that if God should really be taken fully and not in part then I'd come to the point of rejecting so much of the bible all together it's almost left me barren. It's a tragedy. It really is a domino effect.

I didn't want to be in a state of accepting some things and rejecting others. But then most Catholics who do want to learn will know about the bibles compilation history. It almost then becomes too easy to start rejecting more.

I've discovered that rejecting the Church leaves you in a situation of actually having to push scripture away too. The Church is in sync with the bible. Disbelief in the church causes disbelief in the bible.

Cain Spencer · Dec 16, 2012

Tallguy88 said:
Just so you know, there are few who still believe that those outside the visible bounds of the Catholic Church will be damned simply for not being Catholic. Most people I know take it to mean that Christians, regardless of affiliation, can be saved.

I see. From my understanding, the Church agrees with the latter.

beggarsall · Dec 16, 2012

Of course there's salvation outside the church. There was salvation on the cross.

Cain Spencer · Dec 17, 2012

beggarsall said:
Of course there's salvation outside the church. There was salvation on the cross.

Your statement is invalid. What purpose does it have? Christ was head of the Church.

beggarsall · Dec 17, 2012

That man wasn't saved because Jesus was the head of the church.

He was saved because he put his faith in Jesus Christ. You don't have to be in the church to do that.

No salvation outside the Church

God save us all.

Newbie

God save us all.

I close my eyes and see you smile

God save us all.

Newbie

I close my eyes and see you smile

God save us all.

Secular Carmelite OCDS

Secular Carmelite OCDS

Member of the Round Table

God save us all.

God save us all.

I close my eyes and see you smile

We shall see the King when he comes!

God save us all.

God save us all.

Newbie

God save us all.

Newbie

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