Socialism vs the Bible

Illuminaughty

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"All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had." Acts 4:32

Look at that! No private possessions and they shared everything in common. Doesn't exactly scream "capitalist" does it? Anarcho-socialist is the first thing that comes to my mind.
 
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Illuminaughty

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1. Socialism Holds There is No Private Property, the State Owns All
Nope. Not a special segment of the people labeled "the state". The means of production are held collectively. Everyone has an equal share and say. At least that's how it works in democratic socialism.
2. Socialism Ignores Laziness:
I can't speak for every socialist but I certainly take into consideration the fact that some people might not be particularly keen on working.

6. Socialism Allows No Freedom of Action or Expression:
Socialism is an economic model. It doesn't demand that the state limit speech. Certainly it's possible for a state to be economically liberal and socially repressive but it's far from a nescessity. Capitalist states can be socially repressive as well.

7. In Socialism, the State Replaces Church:
In Capitalism the church is replaced by God-Money. That's not a necessary feature of capitalism of course but if we are going to throw out wild accusations like that I thought I would too.
 
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NightHawkeye

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Marxism =/= socialism.
Wikipedia disagrees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_(Marxism)
In Marxist theory, socialism, lower-stage communism or the socialist mode of production, refers to a specific historical phase of economic development and its corresponding set of social relations that eventually supersede capitalism in the schema of historical materialism. Socialism is defined as a mode of production where the criterion for economic production is use-value, and is based on direct production for use coordinated through conscious economic planning, where the law of value no longer directs economic activity, and thus monetary relations in the form of exchange-value, profit, interest and wage labor no longer operate. Income would be distributed according to individual contribution. The social relations of socialism are characterized by the working-class effectively controlling the means of production and the means of their livelihood either through cooperative enterprises or public ownership and self management, so that the social surplus would accrue to the working class or society as a whole.

Although Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels wrote very little on socialism and neglected to provide any details on how it might be organized, numerous Marxists and neoclassical economists used Marx's theory as a basis for developing their own models and proposals for socialist economic systems.
Just the FACTS. Of course ... the usual REDEFINITIONS have since occurred, as has happened with many things originating out of Marxism. :doh:
 
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Redac

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Wikipedia disagrees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_(Marxism)
In Marxist theory, socialism, lower-stage communism or the socialist mode of production, refers to a specific historical phase of economic development and its corresponding set of social relations that eventually supersede capitalism in the schema of historical materialism. Socialism is defined as a mode of production where the criterion for economic production is use-value, and is based on direct production for use coordinated through conscious economic planning, where the law of value no longer directs economic activity, and thus monetary relations in the form of exchange-value, profit, interest and wage labor no longer operate. Income would be distributed according to individual contribution. The social relations of socialism are characterized by the working-class effectively controlling the means of production and the means of their livelihood either through cooperative enterprises or public ownership and self management, so that the social surplus would accrue to the working class or society as a whole.

Although Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels wrote very little on socialism and neglected to provide any details on how it might be organized, numerous Marxists and neoclassical economists used Marx's theory as a basis for developing their own models and proposals for socialist economic systems.
Just the FACTS. Of course ... the usual REDEFINITIONS have since occurred, as has happened with many things originating out of Marxism. :doh:

Your own Wikipedia quote there states that socialism is a historical stage in Marxist thought, not that it is equivalent with Marxism itself.

And as long as we are posting Wikipedia links:

Types of socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not every type here is specifically Marxist.
 
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NightHawkeye

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Your own Wikipedia quote there states that socialism is a historical stage in Marxist thought, not that it is equivalent with Marxism itself.
Socialism existed prior to the birth of Marx. To say that a socialist is by necessity a communist would be like saying all dogs are by necessity poodles.

So ... communism isn't a form of Marxism either? :confused:
 
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Illuminaughty

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So ... communism isn't a form of Marxism either?

I'm not seeing how you got that out of what I said? Many communists are Marxists and all Marxists are communists.

Regarding socialism and Marxist communism think along these lines:

Dog

Poodle

Black Poodle.

All black poodles are poodles which are in turn dogs but you can't say the same in reverse that all dogs are poodles with black fur. Socialist would be a broader term like dog. Marxist would be a more specific subcategory like black poodles. To claim that a person is automatically a Marxist because they are socialist would be similar to claiming that every person who supports the existence of a government is a fascist (or a Republican, Monarchist...etc). All fascists support the existence of a government but not all people who support the existence of a government are fascist.
 
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dobson67

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QFT.

It never ceases to amaze me that so many people on this forum want to push this misguided concept that socialism is some great evil.

Hmmm...Let's take a trip back in time to Soviet Union (Communism). Did you know that under communism in the Soviet Union, the official "religion" of the communists there was "Atheism". True Christians were often beaten, jailed, killed or all three. Same is true of current China.

Take a look around. Socialists are working hard to have all the "political Correctness" abounding. Look at the demands to have crosses and Nativity scenes removed from public places all the time. Even churches are starting to be harassed for these things.

Socialism seeks to take away wealthier persons' holdings by force.

Read Matthew 19:16–30, Mark 10:17–31 and Luke 18:18–30.

In Matthew, a rich young man asks Jesus what actions bring eternal life. First Jesus advises the man to obey the commandments. When the man responds that he already observes them, and asks what else he can do, Jesus adds:

If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.

Luke has a similar episode and states that:

When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

The disciples then ask Jesus who then can be saved, and Jesus replies: "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

Jesus never FORCED the wealthy man to give up his possessions, he gave him the CHOICE. Socialism doesn't give a choice.
 
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szechuan

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Hmmm...Let's take a trip back in time to Soviet Union (Communism). Did you know that under communism in the Soviet Union, the official "religion" of the communists there was "Atheism".

Because all Atheists are communists?

True Christians were often beaten, jailed, killed or all three. Same is true of current China.
in the past yes, but current China is not the same as before.
Even this WND article agrees with me.
China’s communism opening up to Christianity?

In fact China had a Period where a Christian Extremist claimed he was the son of god and killed millions of people in a war. Oh and he was successful in taking over the Taiping region until it fell about a decade later.
Taiping Heavenly Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take a look around. Socialists are working hard to have all the "political Correctness" abounding. Look at the demands to have crosses and Nativity scenes removed from public places all the time. Even churches are starting to be harassed for these things.
So you're labeling all Atheists as Socialists?

I guess you never heard of Ayn Rand a famous philosopher who is also an Atheist who is pro capitalist and in fact the complete opposite of "Socialism" which many Conservatives and Libertarians base there ideology on, And Ayn Rand who completely rejected all Faiths and Religion.
Socialism seeks to take away wealthier persons' holdings by force.
Taxation does not mean socialism.
 
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dogs4thewin

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IMO, Christ taught and lived socialism. I don't see how anyone can logically refute.
In a sense He taught both. He taught we were to give to others, BUT that we are also to work to support ourselves, so in a sense he taught that we should do both. We should give out of what we have, HOWEVER as long as we are not attached to the worldly goods we may have them.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Of course, but when people work and they still can't is where we have a problem especially with the rising costs of Health-Care.
Well I understand that. I am not talking about people who work and need help, or people who for whatever reason cannot work. I am only about those who will not work with that reply.
 
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dobson67

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Because all Atheists are communists?
I LOVE when people try and put words in my mouth!

dobson67 said:
Did you know that under communism in the Soviet Union, the official "religion" of the communists there was "Atheism".

Nice try! But I never said ALL atheists were communist.
 
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szechuan

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I LOVE when people try and put words in my mouth!
I wasn't, it was a legitimate question because I don't know what the point of pointing that out was.



Nice try! But I never said ALL atheists were communist.
Really? it seemed like you were suggesting that in your post.
Since I don't understand want to clarify?
 
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contango

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The point is all these sites I see all over the internet claiming Jesus would be a socialist. Of that I have serious doubt!

Usually it seems that Republicans can find a dozen verses in the Bible to prove how bad the Democrats are and how Jesus would have voted Republican. At the same time the Democrats can find a dozen verses in the Bible to prove how bad the Republicans are and how Jesus would have voted Democrat.

Personally the only political outlook I can truly reconcile with the Bible is libertarianism. Simply put, if God is willing to give us a free choice whether to spend eternity in heaven or in hell, who do we think we are to restrict other free choices that affect nobody else?
 
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contango

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IMO, Christ taught and lived socialism. I don't see how anyone can logically refute.

Really?

Jesus told us to look after the poor among us. He didn't tell us to campaign to make sure everybody else did it. Jesus singled out the widow for donating money that was pitiful compared to what the rich people were giving. He let the rich man who decided not to sell all he had walk away. Jesus never campaigned to make sure the richest paid "their fair share", he didn't tell us how much to give, he just told us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc.
 
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dobson67

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Really? it seemed like you were suggesting that in your post.
Since I don't understand want to clarify?
Simple...I was talking about the Soviet Union. Not atheists in general. I thought I made that pretty clear in the original post. May want to carefully reread my post before suggesting something I never said.

But for sake of Clarity, I will again quote my original post:
dobson67 said:
Hmmm...Let's take a trip back in time to Soviet Union (Communism). Did you know that under communism in the Soviet Union, the official "religion" of the communists there was "Atheism". True Christians were often beaten, jailed, killed or all three. Same is true of current China.

I still don't see where I said ALL atheists were communists. I DID say however that Soviet Communists were atheist...not the other way around! Big difference!
 
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