Jesus said he was sent only to the house of Israel...

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
No, one makes a decision to receive or reject Christ, and the sin and love will be an entirely different matter for both groups.

Click to expand...

don't understand your words, but you need some evidence anyway...

In other words, if a sinner commits sin, or loves, he does it according to his nature, which is...natural.

When a saint sins, he has already acknowledged his fallen nature, so he should not have a problem acknowledging something the Lord brings to his attention as sin, repent of that sin, confess that sin, and be cleansed of that sin because he is led to put it away.

The sinner is usually unaware that what he is doing is wrong.

I gave a short comment on what I meant here:

strangertoo said:
The saved will begin to learn to love, for the first time, and to take control of sin in their lives through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who will continue to convict of sin in the believers heart for the rest of their life.

Click to expand...

you cannot receive the spirit, face God face-to face, without ceasing to sin first, it is the very foundation, what you promise at water baptism, death to the old ways of sin... so where is your evidence for ignoring the scripture?

Just not taught in scripture.

The "foundation" is not "Stop Sinning! Start Loving!"

Since you say the YLT is the translation that is not corrupted by sinners, consider what the tranlsation says:

2 Timothy 2:19

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

19 sure, nevertheless, hath the foundation of God stood, having this seal, `The Lord hath known those who are His,' and `Let him depart from unrighteousness -- every one who is naming the name of Christ.'

Mr. Young places both "The Lord hath known those that are His" and "Let Him depart from unrighteousness -- every one who is naming the name of Christ" as...

...the seal of the foundation, not the foundation itself. Is this why you always quote a "translation of sinners" when you quote this? Because you know it does not align with the doctrine you teach?

The chapter has a primary focus on scripture, and it is evident that the foundation in view here is the very word of God...not "sinners that have stopped sinning.

Continued...

strangertoo · Dec 8, 2012

P1LGR1M said:
"Spirit" here refers to the life which man has, it has been taken from the body.

I suggest you try it and see

It is the breath of life given unto Adam, to be sure, but the relationship man had with Adam was broken due to Adam's sin:

the bible never accuses Adam of sin , so why do you ?

To illustrate the error of the "Stop Sinning! Start Loving!" gospel, consider:

Romans 5 (YLT) 1 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

We are declared righteous, as scripture consistently teaches...through faith. Because we do not see God's grace mentioned in this verse, this does not give us liberty to deny scripture and teach "faith alone" without grace. It is inclusive to salvation, and salvation apart from faith is no salvation.

sadly you refuse the scripture that grace is forgiveness of sins once they are past... there is no grace for those still sinning ... so as you demonstrate you fail to understand that sinning is the only thing that prevents us from knowing God and Jesus ... but one day you will accept these words :-

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

you deny righteousness that the bible speaks about as the only way of saints following Jesus but then seem to claim you are righteous as a sinner who does not have to stop sinning for some reason.... but then want to condemn others for ever because they sin just like you... it makes no sense , is just self-contradiction , and counter to so much scripture that I do not see how you missed so much in reading the bible... but most of all I cannot fathom how you think you can change from unbeliever to believer ,but claim no-one else will do so after you ... you assume God's mercy ends [likely because you have not forgiven the world yourself] but God says over a hundred times that mercy endures for all time and SUPERCEDES judgement.... because judgement is only of who is readty for translation, who still needs further persuasion... and you do not get it that Love CANNOT give up on anyone, God cannot fail because He is God, He has the MEANS to persuade all to TRY Love and see for themselves that Gods counsel is sound, Love is the better way than sin for all men, no exceptions, even Satan is just the prodigal son of perdition, becomes a piteous creature after God takes all his followers away with just Love that they see at last is better...
but I don't see how you missed all this, some personal bitterness blinding you to that? ... God is all Love, no condemnation [yet another mistranslation in KJV copied to many other bibles, corrected in literal bibles]
Love only keeps teaching the Truth of Love until all accept it and freely choose it once they know it... it is not for you to say other than God on this, He knows His counsel will stand :-

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God's pleasure is that men Love God which they do by obeying His command to Love all ... so you are mistaken and I do not know why you would even want so passionately to doubt God on this... He will change your mind one day

2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.

the glory of God is when all men accept Him as God by obeying Him by Loving... nothing less than that will do , else clearly He would not be the god of all men , and He states that he is the God and saviour of all men... how can you possibly doubt this ,yet think you follow Jesus who states it ?

By faith we have access into this grace in which we have stood, meaning...we endure because we have faith in Christ. In this we boast, not that we stopped sinning or started loving.

there is good reason too, it is God who forgives whom He will, and certainly it is a sin to claim one is saved prior to God's first judgement of that at Jesus return when few have found the way [Matt 7:14] , but then you see what you refused before, the many are destroyed [matt 7:13] and yet countless billions are save LATER at judgement day because the kingdom persuades them to try Love and they are saved by works [Rev 20:13] ... but claiming to have faith in Love if one does not Love is obviously just lying to oneself, faith in Love always causes one to Love as Jesus and the saints showed by their Love... so how did you get that wrong ... ? it is even written explicitly , so why do you doubt James?

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

3 And not only [so], but we also boast in the tribulations, knowing that the tribulation doth work endurance;

tribulation is indeed baptism of fire for saints, the perfection of Love... but one cannot even begin obeying Jesus and God in Love until one stops disobeying Jesus and God's command to Love, can you ? baptism of fire is teh third baptism, the first is ceasing from sin [water baptism, change , death to the old ways of sin]

What can separate us from the love of God?

Nothing.

if only you realised that and so knew that all will be saved ... but one is saved by being persuaded to give up sinning and choose Love instead of abuse of folks...

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Not the YLT.

2 Timothy 2:19

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

19 sure, nevertheless, hath the foundation of God stood, having this seal, `The Lord hath known those who are His,' and `Let him depart from unrighteousness -- every one who is naming the name of Christ.'

Mr. Young would take issue with you for both abandoning his work and also relying on a "sinner's translation."

strangertoo said:
The lost will be hardened to sin, their conscience seared as with a hot iron, and just as those that rejected God in times past, God will give them over to their reprobate minds and hearts.

Click to expand...

indeed , but only for an age, until death in fact , for death frees a man from sin [Romans 6:7] even better than grace [which only covers past sin when one stops]

Okay, let's look at this teaching, which says that Romans 6:7 teaches "death frees men from sin."

Romans 6:7

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

7 for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.

Sure seems to say that, doesn't it?

Until we put it back in it's context, that is:

Romans 6

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 What, then, shall we say? shall we continue in the sin that the grace may abound?

2 let it not be! we who died to the sin -- how shall we still live in it?

We have "died" to sin, yet...we live. Yet we are not to live in sin.

3 are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?

Just as the children of Israel were baptized into Moses, meaning, their association was with Moses, even so we have been batized into Christ and our association is with Him...and His death. That does not mean we literally were there hanging on the Cross with Him, but vicariously His death is our death. Our sin was placed upon Him, our penalty paid.

4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.

Because we are associated with Him and His death, then we also were buried when He was. It is through His resurrection that we receive spiritual resurrection, we, once dead in trespasses and sins, are risen from the dead to walk in newness of life.

Yet we did not have to die, be buried, and raised literally with Him to spiritually have died (which occured in Adam), be buried (which water immersion only symbolizes), and resurrected...spiritually.

We were dead, but now have the life of Christ. Those who do not have Christ...have no life in them.

5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again;

"In the likeness of His death," not literally dead.

We will be physically resurrected one day, and glorified as He was.

6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;

It is because we have been baptized into Christ through regeneration that we have been made now servants of God rather than servants of sin.

7 for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.

Has nothing to do with physical death. We have already "died" and been set free from sin's dread hold.

One other item on this proof-text: the word translated "set free" here in the YLT and "is freed" in the KJV is, of the 40m times it is found in the New Testament is translated in the KJV like this:

AV justify 37, be freed 1, be righteous 1, justifier 1

What we can see in this word is that what is in view is redemption from the penalty of sin through the shed blood of Christ.

Note-I have corrected an error on my part, changing "gardened" to hardened, which was what should have been here.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
I suggest you try it and see

the bible never accuses Adam of sin , so why do you ?
sadly you refuse the scripture that grace is forgiveness of sins once they are past... there is no grace for those still sinning ... so as you demonstrate you fail to understand that sinning is the only thing that prevents us from knowing God and Jesus ... but one day you will accept these words :-

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

you deny righteousness that the bible speaks about as the only way of saints following Jesus but then seem to claim you are righteous as a sinner who does not have to stop sinning for some reason.... but then want to condemn others for ever because they sin just like you... it makes no sense , is just self-contradiction , and counter to so much scripture that I do not see how you missed so much in reading the bible... but most of all I cannot fathom how you think you can change from unbeliever to believer ,but claim no-one else will do so after you ... you assume God's mercy ends [likely because you have not forgiven the world yourself] but God says over a hundred times that mercy endures for all time and SUPERCEDES judgement.... because judgement is only of who is readty for translation, who still needs further persuasion... and you do not get it that Love CANNOT give up on anyone, God cannot fail because He is God, He has the MEANS to persuade all to TRY Love and see for themselves that Gods counsel is sound, Love is the better way than sin for all men, no exceptions, even Satan is just the prodigal son of perdition, becomes a piteous creature after God takes all his followers away with just Love that they see at last is better...
but I don't see how you missed all this, some personal bitterness blinding you to that? ... God is all Love, no condemnation [yet another mistranslation in KJV copied to many other bibles, corrected in literal bibles]
Love only keeps teaching the Truth of Love until all accept it and freely choose it once they know it... it is not for you to say other than God on this, He knows His counsel will stand :-

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God's pleasure is that men Love God which they do by obeying His command to Love all ... so you are mistaken and I do not know why you would even want so passionately to doubt God on this... He will change your mind one day

the glory of God is when all men accept Him as God by obeying Him by Loving... nothing less than that will do , else clearly He would not be the god of all men , and He states that he is the God and saviour of all men... how can you possibly doubt this ,yet think you follow Jesus who states it ?

there is good reason too, it is God who forgives whom He will, and certainly it is a sin to claim one is saved prior to God's first judgement of that at Jesus return when few have found the way [Matt 7:14] , but then you see what you refused before, the many are destroyed [matt 7:13] and yet countless billions are save LATER at judgement day because the kingdom persuades them to try Love and they are saved by works [Rev 20:13] ... but claiming to have faith in Love if one does not Love is obviously just lying to oneself, faith in Love always causes one to Love as Jesus and the saints showed by their Love... so how did you get that wrong ... ? it is even written explicitly , so why do you doubt James?

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

tribulation is indeed baptism of fire for saints, the perfection of Love... but one cannot even begin obeying Jesus and God in Love until one stops disobeying Jesus and God's command to Love, can you ? baptism of fire is teh third baptism, the first is ceasing from sin [water baptism, change , death to the old ways of sin]

if only you realised that and so knew that all will be saved ... but one is saved by being persuaded to give up sinning and choose Love instead of abuse of folks...

Address the posts.

No-one is interested in the opinions of men.

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
Your teaching that one must stop sinning in order to be "spirit-baptized" negates the basic biblical principle that those that are lost have no power over sin, but are slaves of sin.

Click to expand...

it's not as such 'my' teaching ,

It is purely the construct of your imagination.

You are teaching that men...

1) must stop sinning to be spirit-baptized;

2) must start loving;

3) should reject the teachers that God has placed in the Body;

4) should read a translation that is probably one of the worst I have ever come across, for the purpose of understanding the word of God, that is.

5) that natural men can deal with sin;

6) that people that do not have the Spirit of God...belong to God.

I plan on compiling a list and I will make this the focus until you...

...address the posts.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
it's what the scripture teaches ,

Nope.

That has been shown a number of times.

strangertoo said:
as I showed you,

I have seen nought but false doctrine.

strangertoo said:
and I cannot see why you ignore those scriptures ...

Want to get a scripture count, my friend? Want to go back and see who is posting scripture and who is spouting their own words, words of men?

strangertoo said:
those who reject the offer of grace for ceasing sin now

Ridiculous.

If it is worked for, it is no more grace:

Romans 11

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

5 So then also in the present time a remnant according to the choice of grace there hath been;

6 and if by grace, no more of works, otherwise the grace becometh no more grace; and if of works, it is no more grace, otherwise the work is no more work.

The scripture cannot be broken.

strangertoo said:
are freed from sin by death...

They are not justified if they do not receive Christ...

...in this life.

Woe to the man that teaches men can be saved after a life of rejecting Christ Jesus.

Woe.

Woe.

Woe.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
it is you who is rejecting what the scripture states ... one cannot be a lsave to sin after resurrection unless one sins again...

There are two resurrections mentioned in scripture:

John 5:29

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

Judgment is:

2920. krisis kree'-sis decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):--accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

Consider:

Matthew 23:33

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

33 `Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

These two resurrections are mentioned in the Old Testament:

Daniel 12:1-2

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book.

2 `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

So we add to the list of errors another:

strangertoo said:
it is you who is rejecting what the scripture states ... one cannot be a lsave to sin after resurrection unless one sins again...

Making the list look something like this:

You are teaching that men...

1) must stop sinning to be spirit-baptized;

2) must start loving;

3) should reject the teachers that God has placed in the Body;

4) should read a translation that is probably one of the worst I have ever come across, for the purpose of understanding the word of God, that is.

5) that natural men can deal with sin;

6) that people that do not have the Spirit of God...belong to God.

7) one can die after being resurrected. This is true only of those consigned to Hell.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
and we know billions will not sin the the kingdom come [Rev 7:9-10]

This has been addressed more than a couple of times. We are told who these people are, and at what time they are found to stand before God:

Revelation 7:9-10

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

9 After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands,

10 and crying with a great voice, saying, `The salvation [is] to Him who is sitting upon the throne -- to our God, and to the Lamb!'

They are seen after the sealing of the 144,000 Israelites, 12,000 each of Twelve Tribes.

13 And answer did one of the elders, saying to me, `These, who have been arrayed with the white robes -- who are they, and whence came they?'

One of the elders asks simply, "Who are they, John?"

14 and I have said to him, `Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, `These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb;

They are those that have been saved...out of the Tribulation. They died during this time and they are not "soul sleeping," but standing before God praising Him.

15 because of this are they before the throne of God, and they do service to Him day and night in His sanctuary, and He who is sitting upon the throne shall tabernacle over them;

Because of what?

14 and I have said to him, `Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, `These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb;

Salvation begins with God, and ends, quite literally...with God.

Revelation 12

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;

11and they did overcome him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life -- unto death;

If we back up, we see the MArtyred saints again:

Revelation 6:9-11

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held,

10 and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'

11 and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time, till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are about to be killed -- even as they.

Clearly this takes place during the Tribulation, which will end this age and precede the Millennial Kingdom, which shall precede the Eternal State.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
who are all destroyed for sin in this earth [Matt 7:13] ...

Ah, yes, another favorite verse.

Matthew 7:13

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

13 `Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide [is] the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it;

Even The YLT makes it clear that men are divided among the many (lost) and the few (saved)...period.

strangertoo said:
rtaher proving Paul's point that death frees one from sin...

Total misunderstanding of the passage.

Romans 6

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

7 for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.

Romans 6:20-23

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

20 for when ye were servants of the sin, ye were free from the righteousness,

21 what fruit, therefore, were ye having then, in the things of which ye are now ashamed? for the end of those [is] death.

22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit -- to sanctification, and the end life age-during;

23 for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again...age-during is seen to signify an unending result.

Continued...

strangertoo · Dec 8, 2012

P1LGR1M said:
Not the YLT.
2 Timothy 2:19 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
19 sure, nevertheless, hath the foundation of God stood, having this seal, `The Lord hath known those who are His,' and `Let him depart from unrighteousness -- every one who is naming the name of Christ.'
Mr. Young would take issue with you for both abandoning his work and also relying on a "sinner's translation."

I have no idea what you are talking about, there is no essential difference in meaning here and you have ignored BOTH

What is the point ?

I already told you that I use the KJV except where there is a serious mistranslation and there is none here...

but why do you ignore what they both say ?

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
slavery is only to the age...

No...it is age during.

It will survive any age.

strangertoo said:
you notions neither make sense nor are a true translation , use a literal bible such as Young's or Rotherham to see the mistake ...

I have done so in the past, and do so in this response, and will do so with you from now on. At least, until you recognize a need for a translation that is easier for you to understand.

strangertoo said:
The ultimate consequence for sin is everlasting punishment, everlasting separation from God in a Christless eternity.

Click to expand...

the wages of sin is death which frees one from sin -Romans 6:7

Romans 6:7

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

7 for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.

Nope...Romans 6:7 doesn't teach "the wages of sin is death which frees one from sin."

What it does say is...

9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship;

10 for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he liveth, he liveth to God;

11 so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit -- to sanctification, and the end life age-during;

23 for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Death as the wage of sin is contrasted to everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord, and a Gift, not a result of anything else:

Romans 5:15-18

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

15 But, not as the offence so also [is] the free gift; for if by the offence of the one the many did die, much more did the grace of God, and the free gift in grace of the one man Jesus Christ, abound to the many;

16 and not as through one who did sin [is] the free gift, for the judgment indeed [is] of one to condemnation, but the gift [is] of many offences to a declaration of `Righteous,'

17 for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one -- Jesus Christ.

18 So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;

Romans 6:23

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

23 for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

One can look here to further study the Gift of God in order to convince themselves God does not...owe them.

Consider what is said of the Holy Spirit:

Acts 2:38

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

38 and Peter said unto them, `Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 10:45

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

45 and those of the circumcision believing were astonished -- as many as came with Peter -- because also upon the nations the gift of the Holy Spirit hath been poured out,

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
I have no idea what you are talking about, there is no essential difference in meaning here and you have ignored BOTH

What is the point ?

I already told you that I use the KJV except where there is a serious mistranslation and there is none here...

but why do you ignore what they both say ?

Address the posts.

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
the spirit is ONE , it cannot be divided from itself in any way ,

Not sure what "spirit" is referred to here, seeing that it could not possibly be the Spirit of God, Who is HE...not it.

strangertoo said:
there can be no separation of God from God...

Not exactly accurate:

Mark 15:34

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

34 and at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a great voice, saying, `Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabachthani?' which is, being interpreted, `My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?'

Only God could take away sins, and He did so by manifesting in human flesh. He died that we might have LIFE.

strangertoo said:
the spirit of a man is of God ,

The spirit, or life which man has truly comes from God, but it is a false teaching that God is either in every an from birth or that all men "return to God" when they die.

THose who die outside of Christ, who have not received Christ, and thusly have no life in them...do not come into the presence of God, but like the Rich Man are cosigned to Hades, separated from God.

Their ultimate separation will be, as shown many times, at the Great White Throne judgment:

Revelation 20:11-15

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;

12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;

13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;

15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

And scripture is silent concerning the dead from here to the establishment of the New Heaven and the New Earth. The next scene is:

Revelation 21

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;

2 and I, John, saw the holy city -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband;

9 And there came unto me one of the seven messengers, who have the seven vials that are full of the seven last plagues, and he spake with me, saying, `Come, I will shew thee the bride of the Lamb -- the wife,'

10 and he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and did shew to me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God,

...not, all men.

24 and the nations of the saved in its light shall walk, and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it,

25 and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there;

26 and they shall bring the glory and the honour of the nations into it;

27 and there may not at all enter into it any thing defiling and doing abomination, and a lie, but -- those written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb.

It is my belief that the wicked will have their names blotted out at the Great White Throne.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
it is only denial causes an illusion of separation in the world... that denial is always overcome, Jesus and God both promise that in scripture , you need to read the whole ...

Makes no sense whatsoever.

strangertoo said:
To teach men they must clean themselves up is to teach error.

Click to expand...

it is the bible that teaches it so I am sure it is you in error and needing to stop listening to sinners,

Show me where there is someone that teaches exactly as I do. Please. I would love to talk to them.

strangertoo said:
seek spirit baptism and let God teach, just try it, stop sinning and follow Jesus command to Love instead...

"Stop Sinning! Start Loving"

...and fail to trust in Christ.

Titus 3:4-5

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

4 and when the kindness and the love to men of God our Saviour did appear

5 (not by works that [are] in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit,

What part of "Not of works" is not understood?

What part of "the blood of Jesus Christ" is insufficient to save?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Dec 8, 2012

strangertoo said:
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

This is the inevitable result of salvation, because Christ takes away the penalty of sin and cleanses us from ALL sin.

We look ed at 1 John 1 earlier, now let's look at the beginning of ch.2:

1 John 2

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,

John knew sin would occur, and when it does, we have both a Comforter and an Advocate.

2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

While His sacrifice appeases the Justice of God for the whole world, it is still necessary to obey the Gospel.

3 and in this we know that we have known him, if his commands we may keep;

It is the evidence...not the means. We keep His commands because we are IN Him.

4 he who is saying, `I have known him,' and his command is not keeping, a liar he is, and in him the truth is not;

Again we see that it is a pattern of life in view, not isolated instances of a believer sinning.

If the pattern is consistently one of sin...it is doubtful that this person is in the light, in fellowship with God, or in other words...saved.

John again calls such a professor a liar.

5 and whoever may keep his word, truly in him the love of God hath been perfected; in this we know that in him we are.

Again, it is the evidence of life, not the means.

strangertoo said:
No amount of "loving" that one who does not have the life and Spirit of Christ will ever pay the debt of sin that will be called into account.

Click to expand...

no need to repay, simply stop sinning and past sins are forgiven by grace of the new covenant\:-

The debt of sin can only be appeased one way: the one sinning will die.

Men can no more "stop sinning" in their natural state than a leopard can change it's spots, or a man can add to his stature.

And that is it for now.

Address the posts, respond to the scripture provided,

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Dec 9, 2012

strangertoo said:
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

What is sought to be taught here is that only sins committed before salvation have been forgiven. First we will put this back in it's context to see if this holds up:

Romans 3:20-26

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.

Having just quoted God's judgment of man's standing before Him, Paul again seeks to clarify that the Law was meant toshow man his sin and drive him to dependance on God, namely through faith in God.

This is self-explanatory..."by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him." The Law...shows man his sin, because he cannot keep it according to a standard of perfection, and will inevitably be found guilty.

21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,

Key word...righteousness. God is righteous, man is not.

22 and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,

ALL...must have faith in Christ. A general belief in God will not suffice, for God has cvommanded men to believe on His Son and to obey Him.

This does not suggest it is "to all" as well as those believing, but speaks of the same people, and states that it is to all, and upon all those believing." Only those that believe on Christ receive this imputation of righteousness.

23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --

ALL...sinned. ALL...still sin. There is not a man who has ever lived that by his own righteousness met the righteous standard of God, who never sinned, that he might not be found guilty of sin and therefore pay for that sin...with his life.

Only the Lord, God manifest in the flesh, Emmanuel, God with us...lived holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners.

He alone is worthy, and can stand in the place of the sinner, to die in his place that the debt our sin incurs might be paid in full.

24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus,

The declaration of the sinner being righteous occurs upon salvation, else, they could not then become children of God. It is by grace through the faith in Christ that is many times taught in scripture. It is not through works of any kind, for if it were it would not be the righteousness of Christ declared, but the righteousness of the sinner declared, and one can hardly read this chapter without understanding that scripture makes it clear there is none righteous...no not one.

Declared righteous...freely through His grace.

25 whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God --

What are the "bygone sins?" They include the sins of the Old Testament saints, who were not made perfect, and could not be made perfect until Christ died in their place. We say rightly that they were "saved by grace" as well, but even as we all who are saved are known to God before we are saved, even so they could not be made perfect until their sin had been atoned for:

Hebrews 11:39-40

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

39 and these all, having been testified to through the faith, did not receive the promise,

40 God for us something better having provided, that apart from us they might not be made perfect.

...and this did not occur until Christ died for them.

26 for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who [is] of the faith of Jesus.

THat the two ages are contrasted is clear in this verse. While the Old Testament saints had a hope in Messiah, their expectation was temporal. Specific faith in Christ for salvation is implied in the Old Testament, but we can see even in the Disciples before Pentecost and the coming of the Comforter...they did not understand.

Before the Cross they preached the "Kingdom of Heaven" and the "Kingdom of God." After the Cross they went back to their previous lives.

Afte Pentecost...they preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter.

At this time it is the righteousness of Christ we preach...not the righteousness of the sinner...which has never met more than a human, temporal standard.

Now let's consider a few verses that teach the righteousness of Christ:

Romans 4:5-6

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness:

6 even as David also doth speak of the happiness of the man to whom God doth reckon righteousness apart from works:

It is not a matter of the sinner being righteous, it is a matter of God declaring him righteous, and this apart from his works. We see clearly that it is the unrighteous that are declared righteous...not those that have stopped sinning. Those who feel they have cleaned themselves up and are therefore worthy of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ fail before they begin, for the word of God will teach them of their sin.

Romans 5:17-18

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

17 for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one -- Jesus Christ.

18 So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;

Through Christ, not works which we have done.

Romans 10:3

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 for not knowing the righteousness of God, and their own righteousness seeking to establish, to the righteousness of God they did not submit.

Israel thought they could attain to the righteous standard of God through keeping the Law.

Romans 10:4

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

4 For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing,

"Everyone believing." Belief is obedience to the Gospel, and means of beiong declared righteous through the imputation of the righteousness of Christ.

All aspects of salvation are through Christ...alone:

1 Corinthians 1:30

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

30 and of Him ye -- ye are in Christ Jesus, who became to us from God wisdom, righteousness also, and sanctification, and redemption,

To be continued...

strangertoo · Dec 9, 2012

P1LGR1M said:
This is the inevitable result of salvation, because Christ takes away the penalty of sin and cleanses us from ALL sin.

read the scripture my friend, ONLY PAST SIN is remitted by grace and one has to KEEP ONESELF after that :-

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Jesus cannot stop sinning for anyone, all must stop for themselves by seeing that sin is not desirable , freely choosing Love because they see it is the BETTER way shown by Jesus... proved possible by Jesus by the three baptisms to salvation [translation to spirit]...

do not ignore John the Baptist's Truth given free, three baptisms in ORDER , first stop sinning in water baptism, then await spirit baptism from God, and finally trial of one's Love in temptation by Satan, baptism of fire to the death [blood mostly ...

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

.... thus you have not understood the SEAL on spirit baptism and without understanding that no sinner even can be baptised of the spirit before death frees them from sin - Romans 6:7

all saints of this earth break the seal by ceasing to sin so that they can survive God face-to-face in spirit baptism... quite simply it kills sinners as witnessed in scripture , one has to stop sinning FIRST, no-one can stop sinning for you ... if you want to abuse with sin Satan WILL find a way to tempt you to abuse others and so be sealed from knowing God until after death...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

God commands Love and knows who Loves, who sins...God will not usually kill a sinner with spirit baptism unless he is foolish enough to call on the name of God for spirit baptism without ceasing from sinning...

Jpark · Dec 10, 2012

strangertoo said:
Jesus cannot stop sinning for anyone, all must stop for themselves...

By relying on His blood.

strangertoo said:
God will not usually kill a sinner with spirit baptism unless he is foolish enough to call on the name of God for spirit baptism without ceasing from sinning...

I disagree.

God looks at desire to stop sinning.

strangertoo · Dec 11, 2012

Jpark said:
By relying on His blood.

Jesus' blood, his death , brought mankind spirit baptism, [John 16:13, Heb 8:10-11]

but it is SEALED from sinners because meeting God face-to face kills sinners
so one has to stop all wilful sin first , that is what water baptism is about, death to one's desires to sin and all sin one does knowingly , so God can give his FREE gift that Jesus bought at such high price for us all ... read about the FOUNDATION of God, the FIRST step, water baptism's meaning :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

it is not foolish tyranny that God and Jesus command Love, no sin , it is NEEDED ... Jesus cannot and will not take any sinners to his kingdom come
to pollute and destroy it as men do this earth [Matt 7:13] :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

I disagree.

well , lets hear your argument, see your evidence from scripture for instance

God looks at desire to stop sinning.

rather God looks at the desire to sin and rejects anyone who wants tosin because Satan will easily tempt them to abuse others, not Love as Jesus and God command ...

desiring not to sin is of no use to a man if he still sins against his own desire not to... Love must be freely chosen, one is not going to choose Love if one still thinks sin is not a disaster for everyone, but that abusing folks with sin is to be desired ! :doh:

...

P1LGR1M · Dec 13, 2012

strangertoo said:
read the scripture my friend, ONLY PAST SIN is remitted by grace and one has to KEEP ONESELF after that :-

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Jesus cannot stop sinning for anyone, all must stop for themselves by seeing that sin is not desirable , freely choosing Love because they see it is the BETTER way shown by Jesus... proved possible by Jesus by the three baptisms to salvation [translation to spirit]...

do not ignore John the Baptist's Truth given free, three baptisms in ORDER , first stop sinning in water baptism, then await spirit baptism from God, and finally trial of one's Love in temptation by Satan, baptism of fire to the death [blood mostly ...

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

.... thus you have not understood the SEAL on spirit baptism and without understanding that no sinner even can be baptised of the spirit before death frees them from sin - Romans 6:7

all saints of this earth break the seal by ceasing to sin so that they can survive God face-to-face in spirit baptism... quite simply it kills sinners as witnessed in scripture , one has to stop sinning FIRST, no-one can stop sinning for you ... if you want to abuse with sin Satan WILL find a way to tempt you to abuse others and so be sealed from knowing God until after death...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

God commands Love and knows who Loves, who sins...God will not usually kill a sinner with spirit baptism unless he is foolish enough to call on the name of God for spirit baptism without ceasing from sinning...

So you refuse to address the posts?

Jesus said he was sent only to the house of Israel...

Stranger

sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

Stranger

Stranger

Stranger

Stranger

Stranger

Stranger

Stranger

sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

Stranger

Stranger

Stranger

Stranger

Stranger

Stranger

sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

Well-Known Member

sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

Stranger

Similar threads