War with Israel

2p0p · Nov 21, 2012

"This theory… is supported by no evidence whatsoever. It has long since been abandoned by all serious scholars in the field, including those in Arab countries, where the Khazar theory is little used except in occasional political polemics"
- Bernard Lewis

Well ,perhaps it was a bit premature to abandon the theory just yet ,as (to my knowledge ) no testing has been done on actual khazar bones so there couldn't be any sort of meaningful analysis/comparison....without that - DNA can say nothing either way...or have those tests been done ?.
But it looks like i will just have to keep sifting through the mountains of conflicting opinions and ''evidences '', both for and against ,it isn't as cut and dried as i thought....in the meantime i wonder ,in my curiosity ...are blue and green eyes and very large rounded down noses part of a typical Semites makeup ?.

I've opened a Pandora's box for myself....here is just one example, i am not allowed to post links yet ,but here is the address

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941333/?tool=pmcentrez

TLK Valentine · Nov 21, 2012

BlandOatmeal said:
The main reason interpreters in the past mis-read prophecies, is that they were simply too far ahead of the time of fulfillment.

According to you, who, by your own reckoning, is in just the right time to discern fulfillment.

You must feel special.

An interpreter in John's time, for instance, could not have imagined that the whole world would one day be ruled by about ten European nations.

Ah, but an interpreter in this time, one who has lived their entire life in a world ruled by about ten European nations -- yourself, for example -- is more than willing and able to decide that it was those ten nations which God was referring to all along.

If they were wrong, then, what makes me think I'm right? It is because in order for those interpretations to be right, one had to ignore much scripture.

Or, possibly, we need an insight into the cultural and historical context of the scriptures which they had but we have since lost.

Do you see how it works, ALL the pieces have to fit together, or the interpretation is wrong. Today is the first time in history, that Magog (Turkey) is on the verge of leading a coalition including Persia (Iran), plus Cush (Sudan) and Put (Libya or Somalia; the location is uncertain). Any end-times scenario that does NOT take these connections into consideration, is not a valid end-times scenario.

You're assuming that you have all the pieces.

Do you see my method? The key is, that it has to fit ALL scripture.

By any means necessary, it would seem.

Shalom shalom

I do hope you choose to address the rest of my post at some point in the foreseeable future.

BlandOatmeal · Nov 22, 2012

[quo...are blue and green eyes and very large rounded down noses part of a typical Semites makeup ?.
[/quote]

"Longest nose in history" (7 inches)

... belonged to Thomas Wedders, and 18th century Yorkshireman, according to Ripley's Believe it or Not.

2p0p,

1. There is no such thing as a "Semitic" race. You can see trends, one way or another, in DNA; but these do not have a 1:1 correspondence with DNA haplogroups. I will give you two examples. In the first map, I will show the yDNA Hg J2, to which belong the Jews' priestly clan:

Notice that Israel is ONE of the places where it has a wide distribution. Mount Ararat, in Turkey (where Noah's ark rested) is another. Now, for Hg J1, a closely-related ydna:

You can see that its distribution is heavily skewed towards the Arabs and Dagestanis. The distribution is quite high on either SIDE of Mt. Ararat, so there's some question as to whether or not it separated from Jewish DNA before the flood.

Notice that this implies that the flood was a local event (though widespread in the Middle East), That's a tough one to call, physically. Some incredible tidal event, such as a close encounter with a large celestial body like a comet, may have caused it. I have no idea how that came about, but the legend is pervasive in Greek and Mesopotamian mythology. The odd thing is that the ark rested in the mountain. If the ark were built in lower Mesopotamia, where there is plenty of tar, the waters had to have heaped up there rather suddenly for the craft to have headed north like that. It's a curiosity. Whatever one says about the flood narrative, though, the bottom line is that haplogroup "J", in its J1 and J2 varieties, is closely associated with the nations mentioned in Genesis 10:

Now, for the really fun part. Besides J (both J1 AND J2), other common Jewish yDNA groups include R1a, of course, which may have been shared with the Khazars. I will show R1a1a here, just to satisfy your curiosity:

There is a small concentration of it in northern Iraq, but larger concentrations in India and Eastern Europe. (but not so much in the area north of the Caucasus, where the Khazars lived). This haplogroup closely correlates with the spread of the Indo-European or, in Hitlerian terms, "Aryan" languages.

Now, let's look at yet another common Jewish haplogroup, E1b1b:

Note the dense distribution among those "Black" Moors in NW Africa! Schwarz! Schwarz! Inferior race! This was the yDNA haplogroup of Adolf Hitler:

...who, for some odd reason, makes me think of Turkish PM Tayyip Erdoğan

...which just goes to show, you can't always tell by looking -- or, for that matter, by DNA!

Shalom shalom :wave:

2p0p · Nov 22, 2012

''...which just goes to show, you can't always tell by looking -- or, for that matter, by DNA!''

I fully agree....but different races normally have distinctive features and anthropologists use these differences to find info about them.....i dont think the "jewish'' nose (for example) is generally found amongst other semetic peoples...it's nothing conclusive ...

and i am starting to feel i am getting off the track re "war with Israel''

Ave Maria · Nov 22, 2012

A major world war could break out but then again, maybe it won't. I certainly hope not.

BlandOatmeal · Nov 22, 2012

Ave Maria said:
A major world war could break out but then again, maybe it won't. I certainly hope not.

Let's look at the ledger:

0. My son -- was travelling by air when 9/11 occurred: Outbound just before, inbound just after. His plane was not one that was hijacked; he had to do the last leg home by bus, because all flights were grounded.
1. Me -- Vietnam Era vet
2. My father -- Defense Industry, WWII
3. My grandfather -- Too old for WWI, with only one useable arm. My other grandfather had to register, but he was a native of an enemy country, so I don't believe he served.
4. My great-grandfathers. The two who lived in America fought in the Civil War: One at Shiloh, which suffered more casualties than all the wars in our history up to then; the other fought two years later in Petersburgh, where there were almost twice as many casualties in that battle alone.
5. My ggreat grandfathers. Of those for whom I know the service record, both fought in the War of 1812. One of them died of wounds
6. My gggreat grandfathers. Revolutionary War veterans all, for those of whom I know; one may have had a son (my ggreat grandfather) kidnapped by Indians during the Royalton Raid.
7. My ggggreat grandfathers. The ones I know the records of fought the Indians in PA. One was killed during the Wyoming Massacre
8, etc. Too far back for details here. Plenty of wars.

Based on that, Maria, what do you suppose your chances are? Mankind has not changed, in nearly 6000 years.

BlandOatmeal · Nov 22, 2012

Valentine, did I lose you?

I was talking about my reasoning, in thinking that Turkey might be "Magog" of Ezekiel 38. The most compelling reason for thinking this prophecy is for our generation is this:

Ezek.38

[1] And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[2] Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
[3] And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
[4] And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
[5] Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
[6] Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
[7] Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
[8] After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
[9] Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
[10] Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
[11] And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
[12] To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
[13] Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
[14] Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
[15] And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
[16] And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
[17] Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
[18] And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
[19] For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
[20] So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
[21] And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
[22] And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
[23] Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

(Gomer and Togarmah, by the way, were also located in Ezekiel's day in what is now Turkey. Tarshish was a colony near Gibralter, and the "Sea of Tarshish" was the Mediterranean. The "merchants of Tarshish" were, therefore, America and the European countries. Sheba was in modern-day Yemen, and Dedan probably in Saudi Arabia. I believe mention of them here refers to the Gulf Cooperation Council.)

The key scripture is verse 8, which speaks about a new state of Israel, "gathered out of many people". This has not happened before my generation.

Do you see why prophecies up until now have erred? Nobody could even conceive of the things Ezekiel was talking about because

1. Many of the players he talked about had not even arrived on the scene yet, and

2. Many of the places he talked about were shrouded in the mists of time; only modern archaeology has brought them back to light.

Notice that the language in Ezekiel 38 is similar to that in Zechariah 14; but not quite the same. The first speaks of "many" nations coming against Israel, the latter of "all" nations. The first ends with a time of burying the dead; the latter of the raising of the dead and the coming of the Messianic Age. Ezekiel's prophecy, which is still unfolding before us, clearly comes BEFORE Zechariah's prophecy.

By the way, the stage for verse 21, "every man's sword shall be against his brother", seems to be set in today's Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia and throughout the Middle East. Any ME country can rally others to join in an attack on Israel; but when they're not fighting Israel, they are intensely involved in fighting one another.

TLK Valentine · Nov 22, 2012

BlandOatmeal said:
Based on that, Maria, what do you suppose your chances are? Mankind has not changed, in nearly 6000 years.

The wheel turns; nothing is ever new.

Kind of gives the "prophets" of the world an edge, doesn't it?

BlandOatmeal · Nov 22, 2012

TLK Valentine said:
The wheel turns; nothing is ever new.

Kind of gives the "prophets" of the world an edge, doesn't it?

It does; but every generation is blinded into thinking that "it won't happen to them".

TLK Valentine · Nov 22, 2012

BlandOatmeal said:
Valentine, did I lose you?

Only my interest -- fret not, I'm back.

The key scripture is verse 8, which speaks about a new state of Israel, "gathered out of many people". This has not happened before my generation.

Except when it did before -- when the Babylonian Exile ended, and the Jews were able to return from their homeland... not just from Babylon, but from the various other places where they scattered to.

What -- you didn't think the entire population of Israel was taken into captivity, did you?

They certainly didn't.

Do you see why prophecies up until now have erred? Nobody could even conceive of the things Ezekiel was talking about because

1. Many of the players he talked about had not even arrived on the scene yet, and

and they were very much on the scene as either allies or enemies of the Jews,

2. Many of the places he talked about were shrouded in the mists of time; only modern archaeology has brought them back to light.

Modern archaeology? How about "current events" back when the texts were written?

Just because you never heard about these places doesn't mean they didn't -- don't assume their knowledge was as incomplete as your own.

Notice that the language in Ezekiel 38 is similar to that in Zechariah 14; but not quite the same. The first speaks of "many" nations coming against Israel, the latter of "all" nations.

Hooray for hyperbole.

The first ends with a time of burying the dead; the latter of the raising of the dead and the coming of the Messianic Age.

But of course -- the notion of the Messianic age heralding the end times (which would include such grand events like the dead rising) developed during the Babylonian exile, IIRC... prior to that, the "Messiah" was simply a military/royal leader who would raise Israel to prominence again.

As the exile dragged on, and the notion of a strong Israel started looking more and more like a pipe dream, the definition changed.

Ezekiel's prophecy, which is still unfolding before us, clearly comes BEFORE Zechariah's prophecy.

Not as clear as you would like to think.

By the way, the stage for verse 21, "every man's sword shall be against his brother", seems to be set in today's Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia and throughout the Middle East. Any ME country can rally others to join in an attack on Israel; but when they're not fighting Israel, they are intensely involved in fighting one another.

And when was that not the case in the history of the Middle East? Israel had a habit of allying with the enemy of their enemy -- a common enough policy which didn't always work out for them in the end.

And again, it was the enemy of their enemy who eventually saved them from captivity.

Not prophecy -- current events.

TLK Valentine · Nov 22, 2012

BlandOatmeal said:
It does; but every generation is blinded into thinking that "it won't happen to them".

No, every generation has the masses who say it won't, and a few who try to warn the others.

Contrawise, there are those who say it's happening now, and those who say it's not.

2p0p · Nov 22, 2012

""war with Israel"
''“The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years.”

- Interior Minister Eli Yishai

Illuminaughty · Nov 22, 2012

I am not the President, and I will not second-guess him when he gets us into a war.

I will. I understand the idea of respect for the office of the presidency but just blindly supporting them every time they decide we need to start bombing and shooting people doesn't fly with me.

At the time we went to war with Iraq, I couldn't see the point of it. I knew that most of the 9/11 bombers were Saudi and not Iraqi,

I didn't either.

and wondered why we didn't bomb Mecca instead.

What would bombing Mecca have done except increase the number of anti-American extremists willing to take violent actions against us ? The fact that some of the criminals came from Saudi Arabia doesn't imply that "the Saudi Arabians" did it. The Saudi Arabian government is actually pretty tight with the US and with the Bush family in particular.

You seem to like the idea of nuking and bombing people a lot?. I get the impression you really want to see Armageddon happen so you can say I told you so.

UNLESS one believes that the WMD threat was genuine. That's all grist for the conspiracy theory mill. All I know for sure, is that by putting Sadaam Hussein out of business, we created a power vacuum in the area that will naturally be filled by Turkey and Iran.

Not really. Even IF Saddam had WMDs at the time (rather than imaginary ones) I still wouldn't have supported a war against Iraq. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Iraqi government was planning on sneaking over a chemical weapon and detonating it in the US. We can't just start invading every country we think has World War One era weapons technology.

BlandOatmeal · Nov 22, 2012

Turkey's Erdoğan has talks with Iran, Pakistan, others

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan is expected to meet with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. (Photo: AA)

22 November 2012 / TODAY'S ZAMAN, ANKARA
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan had talks with leaders of Iran, Pakistan and other countries on the sidelines of a summit of the D-8 group of developing countries in the Pakistani capital on Thursday.
Erdoğan, who delivered a speech at the summit, discussed the 20-month-long crisis in Syria and the Gaza crisis with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari, Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and Egytpian Vice President Mahmoud Mekky.

Prime Minister Erdoğan last month suggested three-way talks with Egypt and Iran, on the Syria crisis, given the apparent Saudi objection to Iranian involvement in talks of the quartet of regional powers regarding the 20-month-long conflict...

Note Egypt's half-hearted commitment to the talks (They sent their VICE-President) and Saudi Arabia's outright rejection.

What is happening, is this: At the moment, Iran is backing President Assad in Syria, whom the Turks would like to have jettisoned into outer space. This has soured relations between Turkey and Iran, and forced Turkey into an alliance with other anti-Syrian forces such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia, as well as Turkey's own NATO allies such as Britain, France and the US. Nonetheless, Turkey is making every effort to restore relations with Iran -- which, interestingly, would put Turkey into a coalition with Persia, Cush and Put, namely, the Ezekiel 38 Coalition.

The only things that stand in Turkey's way of achieving this are:

1. Iran's persistance in supporting Assad. This may change.

2. Turkey's commitment to NATO. This has been flaky (They refused to help out the US during the Gulf Wars), and Erdogan recently exhorted the Arab countries to resist the other NATO powers in order to attack Israel.

MORE on Turkey's anti-Israel and anti-Western positions.

The focus is on Syria right now: If Assad goes down, the way is clear for Turkey to bolt from NATO, and lead an attack on Israel. If that happens during the coming year, which it very well could, We will be witnesses of Ezekiel 38 unfolding.

PS. Valentine, I replied to your recent post, but the machine ate it.

Trogool · Nov 22, 2012

BlandOatmeal said:
Note Egypt's half-hearted commitment to the talks (They sent their VICE-President) and Saudi Arabia's outright rejection.

And we sent only our Secretary of State. Trying to twist the commitment of a country's second-highest executive official to a task into an indication that said country doesn't really care about that task is laughable.

BlandOatmeal · Nov 22, 2012

Trogool said:
And we sent only our Secretary of State. Trying to twist the commitment of a country's second-highest executive official to a task into an indication that said country doesn't really care about that task is laughable.
[/left]
[/center]

First of all, Trogool,

HAPPY THANKSGIVING

Second order of business: Please read before you strike. The United States was not invited to the D-8 Talks.

Shalom shalom :wave:

Trogool · Nov 22, 2012

BlandOatmeal said:
First of all, Trogool,

HAPPY THANKSGIVING

Second order of business: Please read before you strike. The United States was not invited to the D-8 Talks.

Shalom shalom

Hillary Clinton in Israel for Peace Talks - Central Coast News KION/KCBA

Clinton in Israel aiming for Gaza cease-fire - CBS News

Clinton in Israel aiming for Gaza cease-fire - CBS News

BlandOatmeal · Nov 22, 2012

You still aren't reading, Trogool (sigh) :sigh:

Read it again:

Second order of business: Please read before you strike. The United States was not invited to the D-8 Talks.

Trogool · Nov 22, 2012

BlandOatmeal said:
You still aren't reading, Trogool (sigh)

Read it again:

Yes, I've read what you've said. It's not my fault you haven't read the news and are under the mistaken belief that the US secretary of state wasn't involved in the peace talks.

dollarsbill · Nov 22, 2012

God bless Israel. Live forever!

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