"In GUNS We Trust!" should be replaced by "In GOD We Trust!"

TerranceL · Nov 17, 2012

Marek said:
advocating a certain valid moral position (use of violence in self-defense) that is in accord with modern thought,

Yeah that whole "if someone tries to kill you defend yourself" is totally brand new. Before the 20th century people just started mildly confused while they were assaulted.

Marek · Nov 17, 2012

TerranceL said:
Yeah that whole "if someone tries to kill you defend yourself" is totally brand new. Before the 20th century people just started mildly confused while they were assaulted.

I wasn't suggesting that it's a new idea. I said that it's "in accord with modern thought" in the sense that it's a generally accepted principle and based in reason rather than religious teachings. I think you'd find very few, if any, secular moralists who would universally reject the right to use self-defense to protect innocents. So it doesn't surprise me that so many Christians would, instead of taking the Gospels at face value, try to twist the words to make them fit with today's standards of morality. It seems to me that this is evidence that it's not necessarily religion that dictates what we perceive to be right and wrong.

Jeffwhosoever · Nov 17, 2012

Jesus wasn't too hip on "religion" of His day. Religion and faith are not the same thing.

allykelly07 · Nov 18, 2012

Blackguard_ said:
No, I mentioned it in my second to last paragraph. You just somehow take that to be a pacifist pronouncement when really Jesus was pointing out that people die in fights. Jesus point was that there was no sense in fighting and dying to try and prevent what he wanted to happen; his arrest.

It is not loving to let them have their way and hurt and kill other people. We're also supposed to love ourselves and our neighbors, and we are not called to love our enemies more than ourselves or neighbors. It is not loving to be a doormat and let them do their evil deeds.

Pacifism is not the high moral ideal some make it out to be, pacifism is despicable. It is not loving to aid the evil against the innocent.

"the Jews look for a sign and the Greeks seek after wisdom" 1 Corinthians 1:22.

You're testing God and seeking a sign. You want God to strike down your enemies in a big flashy display of power and glory. Humans are by nature theologians of glory. You're relying very much on your own understanding.

Human reasoning is that if you please the gods, make the proper sacrifice and perform the ritual correctly, you will earn their favor and they will protect you, among other things. Associating gods favor with physical protection is a very human, pagan idea.

One of the main differences between Christianity and most other religions is that God's favor or disfavor is not tied your protection. That is thinking the book of Job and what Jesus said about those killed when the tower of Siloam fell is saying. Disaster doesn't mean God is mad at you and success doesn't mean God is happy with you. That is human thinking.

The idea once that once you're in God's favor he'll protect you from all Earthly enemies is a very pagan one.

This isn't Gnosticism. Christ was not the True God while the OT God was the evil Demiurge.

Furthermore, Jesus never said to be pacifists. He said to get swords, and never tells Peter or the other disciples to get rid of them. Also, the two swords being shown to Jesus when he says to get swords means Peter and other disciples had swords with them the whole time. Jesus clearly does not have a problem with going about armed or the issue would have been brought up much earlier. Do you think Jesus wouldn't have said something sooner than the last hours of his life if he disapproved of his disciples going about armed?

Now all of a sudden God is so weak I can rip souls from his grasp? This point is brought up often by pacifists, but it ascribes to man powers we don't have and is incredibly presumptuous. You don't know the state of the attacker's soul, and you don't know what would have happened had he lived, or if even if he died. Maybe it would be as the pacifists say, that after killing you he'll get saved, but maybe it won't. He might have gone on to kill even more people, who may or may not have been saved themselves for example. You don't know what would have happened, and God saves souls, not us.

Part of the problem with pacifism is that it doesn't really seem to believe evil, true evil, exists. The pacifist fantasy is of your death and/or pain being a noble sacrifice for the attacker, and as you say a display of your faith, but your sacrifice and display mean nothing to them. It's a vain display of false piety. You are disposable to them. Decent people with working consciences can have trouble grokking it, but violent criminals have no regard for you.

"Do you know what people are? Bags of meat with screams inside", as one home invader said.

You are not saving their soul by letting them kill you or others.

Glas handled the other verses, and here's another passage from the Psalms...

"Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle" -Psalm 144:1

It is not testing God, to trust that He guides my steps in the way I should go, so that if I ever ran into a situation like that, He would be allowing it to happen to me for a reason. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. But that does not mean He didn't replace the old covenant, with a knew one, for us to obey and live by it. He said do not take an eye for an eye, or tooth for tooth, and do not resist an evil person. That is what it says and it's what it means. You cannot convince me by trying to explain what you think it means. None of you can grasp the fact and truth, that God is not weak, but is strong. If you believe He is not strong enough to do the simplest things, for Him, and save you from anything, then you are a scoffer as well as Glas Ridier.
Psalm 25:21
May integrity and uprightness protect me, because my hope is in you.

Psalm 34:19-22
19 A righteous man may have many troubles,
but the Lord delivers him from them all;
20 he protects all his bones,
not one of them will be broken.
21 Evil will slay the wicked;
the foes of the righteous will be condemned.
22 The Lord redeems his servants;
no one will be condemned who takes refuge in him.

Psalm 41:1-3
41 Blessed is he who considers the poor;
The Lord will deliver him in time of trouble.
2 The Lord will preserve him and keep him alive,
And he will be blessed on the earth;
You will not deliver him to the will of his enemies.
3 The Lord will strengthen him on his bed of illness;
You will sustain him on his sickbed.

If you now, have no conscience regarding killing people for the sake of preserving you and your families lives, then when the mark of the beast comes, you will be deceived into believing that you need it to keep your family alive as well. Rather than trusting in God to keep things from happening, in His will, and not in your own. I would rather die while preaching the gospel, and have the words that were spoken, ringing in that persons ears that killed me the rest of his life, in hopes that I might have saved his soul. By Him seeing that I do not worry about my life, but go where the Lord sends me, in hopes to save a few out of the deceitfulness of sin and our flesh. We are called to preach the gospel and save souls.
Jude 1:22-23
22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fearhating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

No matter how you want to try to explain the scriptures, Christ never said: when you are attacked, take your sword and slay the man that is trying to kill you or your family. Nor did He ever say that we should defend ourselves, and He never gave any analogies like the ones you all gave me. Nor did He put up signs or protested against anyone. Rather, He spoke the truth, that some might believe on Him and so be saved. Your either trusting in God wholeheartedly in everything (not just in some things) or your trusting in your own strength, and in a delusion that "guns are more reliable than God".... that is blasphemy. You speak against God in saying or believing in your heart, that He is not capable, when He is.

suzybeezy · Nov 19, 2012

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Panzerkamfwagen · Nov 21, 2012

All your doing is putting up signs that say do not only trust in God, but in guns. Do you not realize how foolish it is to say that the God who created us, and everything on this earth, and holds all things together, just by the word of His mouth, cannot save us?

Presumably God gave people minds to develop tools, right? Isn't there some point that we're supposed to act? This thinking reminds me of the story about the person in the flood that prays to God for deliverance and then ends up drowning.

If someone asks for my money I will give it to them, because the Lord allowed them to ask. I put my money where God wants me to put it. I don't lock my doors, (never had anyone steal anything as long as I've lived), neither should we worry about anything. God has provided all these things that you think have to be worked for. You think we have to work to be safe or to keep our families safe. But you don't understand that we, in our flesh, are faulty, and we cannot prevent many things from happening. But God, He is perfect and capable of everything, He is not faulty, and I would rather my trust be fully in Him, than my incapable self, and man made guns, to protect me and my family.

"Go to the ant..."

allykelly07 · Nov 21, 2012

Let it be a warning to everyone. These are not my words, but God Himself says: Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

You are turning away from God, those who put their trust in flesh and not God.

Luke 22:49-60
49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? 53 Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour—when darkness reigns.”

Luke 22:37-39
37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That is enough,” he replied.

He said two swords were enough. Did He say to use them? He did not give any indication that they should use them. But He knew what was going to happen, and that He would show them to not use their swords. Why would He tell them to use the swords? Since everything that He did was in accordance with what the Father wanted and God did not lead Christ where He was not supposed to go, He did not let anything happen until the appointed time. We are supposed to be like Christ, and follow His example. When the soldiers came to arrest Jesus, did He take a sword? No. But even when His disciple cut off the mans ear, Christ said no more of this! Then He healed the mans ear that had just been cut off by the very swords that He told them to by. Then He said, "those who live by the sword, will die by the sword." After Christ died, you do not read once that any of the disciples used a sword. What about Paul? Never once did He retaliate when many people came for Him to kill Him.

2 Corinthians 11:23-26
23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers.

Hebrews 10:33-35
33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

Not confidence in the flesh, but confidence in the Lord.

Philippians 3:2-3
2 Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh

Psalm 20:6-8
6 Now I know that the Lord saves his anointed;
he answers him from his holy heaven
with the saving power of his right hand.
7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses,
but we trust in the name of the Lord our God.
8 They are brought to their knees and fall,
but we rise up and stand firm.

Proverbs 29:25-26
25 Fear of man will prove to be a snare,
but whoever trusts in the Lord is kept safe.
26 Many seek an audience with a ruler,
but it is from the Lord that man gets justice.

TerranceL · Nov 21, 2012

That's nice.

So when you feel ill you just pray right? You don't put any stock in the medicine of man right?

Blackguard_ · Nov 22, 2012

allykelly said:
Did He say to use them? He did not give any indication that they should use them.

Then why on Earth did he tell the disciples to get swords?

But He knew what was going to happen, and that He would show them to not use their swords.

No, he would again try to show that being arrested and killed was part of his mission. Again, Jesus telling Peter to stop interfering with what he came to Earth to do is not a pronouncement of pacifism for all times and places.

Why would He tell them to use the swords? Since everything that He did was in accordance with what the Father wanted and God did not lead Christ where He was not supposed to go, He did not let anything happen until the appointed time. We are supposed to be like Christ, and follow His example. When the soldiers came to arrest Jesus, did He take a sword? No. But even when His disciple cut off the mans ear, Christ said no more of this! Then He healed the mans ear that had just been cut off by the very swords that He told them to by. Then He said, "those who live by the sword, will die by the sword."

So what? Those who don't live by the sword can die by it just as well. And of course Jesus didn't take up the sword, he wanted to be arrested, and like he said could have called down legions of angels(could you or I?) if he wanted a fight. In John's Gospel, he knocks them all down to show he's going willingly and not by being overpowered.

After Christ died, you do not read once that any of the disciples used a sword. What about Paul? Never once did He retaliate when many people came for Him to kill Him.

This seems to be something many Christian Pacifists can't grasp, that being killed by a criminal for your purse or chits and giggles does NOT, I say again, does NOT make you a martyr. No where are the disciples recorded doing the pacifist thing and not resisting bandits et al. They are shown being killed for the testimony of Christ, but not for a few denari on the road to such and such.

Trusting in God is not incompatible with going armed, as the conquest of Canaan showed.
It says they conquered by the hand of God, yet teh conquest of Canaan involved Israelite armies in battles and sieges.

"O God, we have heard with our ears,
Our fathers have told us
The work that You did in their days,
In the days of old.
You with Your own hand drove out the nations;
Then You planted them;
You afflicted the peoples,
Then You spread them abroad.
For by their own sword they did not possess the land,
And their own arm did not save them,
But Your right hand and Your arm and the light of Your presence,
For You favored them.

You are my King, O God;
Command victories for Jacob.
Through You we will push back our adversaries;
Through Your name we will trample down those who rise up against us.
For I will not trust in my bow,
Nor will my sword save me.
But You have saved us from our adversaries,
And You have put to shame those who hate us.
In God we have boasted all day long,
And we will give thanks to Your name forever."
Psalm 44:1-8

And why would this Psalm exist, if we are to do as you say and try to tempt God and force his hand into striking down our enemies in a big display of power and glory by refusing to defend ourselves?

Psalm 144:1-2
"Blessed be the Lord, my rock,
Who trains my hands for war,
And my fingers for battle;
My lovingkindness and my fortress,
My stronghold and my deliverer,
My shield and He in whom I take refuge,
Who subdues my people under me."

USincognito · Nov 22, 2012

Blackguard_ said:
Then why on Earth did he tell the disciples to get swords?

Because Roman Judea had enacted an assault bow ban while simultaneously raising the fee on a concealed sling license to 40 sheckels a year.

MacFall · Nov 22, 2012

Love your neighbors. Also, love your enemies.

Easy enough to do, until your enemies attack your neighbors. At that time one must choose whether his neighborly duties or his obligation to his enemies is more important. I believe that it is my neighborly duty to protect those who have not chosen non-resistance for themselves, from those who would do them harm.

However, I do believe that the very minimum amount of force required to end a threat should be used. Restraint only when persuasion fails; violence only when restraint fails. And one should never intentionally kill. Our obligation to love our enemies doesn't stop even when we must act against them to prevent them from harming others, and in a spiritual sense, themselves.

I oppose gun bans mainly because I oppose violence, including the threat thereof; and legal bans are always backed by threatened violence, regardless of their intent. But also because guns have many non-violent uses, such as protecting one's livestock from predators (which I have had to do myself), hunting, and sport.

allykelly07 · Nov 22, 2012

Blackguard_ said:
Then why on Earth did he tell the disciples to get swords?

No, he would again try to show that being arrested and killed was part of his mission. Again, Jesus telling Peter to stop interfering with what he came to Earth to do is not a pronouncement of pacifism for all times and places.

So what? Those who don't live by the sword can die by it just as well. And of course Jesus didn't take up the sword, he wanted to be arrested, and like he said could have called down legions of angels(could you or I?) if he wanted a fight. In John's Gospel, he knocks them all down to show he's going willingly and not by being overpowered.

This seems to be something many Christian Pacifists can't grasp, that being killed by a criminal for your purse or chits and giggles does NOT, I say again, does NOT make you a martyr. No where are the disciples recorded doing the pacifist thing and not resisting bandits et al. They are shown being killed for the testimony of Christ, but not for a few denari on the road to such and such.

Trusting in God is not incompatible with going armed, as the conquest of Canaan showed.
It says they conquered by the hand of God, yet teh conquest of Canaan involved Israelite armies in battles and sieges.

"O God, we have heard with our ears,
Our fathers have told us
The work that You did in their days,
In the days of old.
You with Your own hand drove out the nations;
Then You planted them;
You afflicted the peoples,
Then You spread them abroad.
For by their own sword they did not possess the land,
And their own arm did not save them,
But Your right hand and Your arm and the light of Your presence,
For You favored them.

You are my King, O God;
Command victories for Jacob.
Through You we will push back our adversaries;
Through Your name we will trample down those who rise up against us.
For I will not trust in my bow,
Nor will my sword save me.
But You have saved us from our adversaries,
And You have put to shame those who hate us.
In God we have boasted all day long,
And we will give thanks to Your name forever."
Psalm 44:1-8

And why would this Psalm exist, if we are to do as you say and try to tempt God and force his hand into striking down our enemies in a big display of power and glory by refusing to defend ourselves?

Psalm 144:1-2
"Blessed be the Lord, my rock,
Who trains my hands for war,
And my fingers for battle;
My lovingkindness and my fortress,
My stronghold and my deliverer,
My shield and He in whom I take refuge,
Who subdues my people under me."

Why would Christ have said two swords were enough, if He didn't mean for them to get those swords for the one purpose of healing the mans ear? It was only for that reason, that He told them to get the swords and that two were enough. You seem to be missing the fact that, the way things worked in the old testament, are different than the way Christ said they are supposed to be now. When Christ came, He did not say anything about if we are attacked on the road, that we should strike out and kill someone because of it. On the contrary He said: "if anyone asks for your coat, give him your shirt as well, if anyone makes you go one mile with them, go two as well". "If any one strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other as well". That is exactly what Christ did when He was arrested, and He gave those same commands for us to live by as He did. There is a verse that says: Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

God has prepared everything we are supposed to do in advance. So that as we are dying to our flesh and living by the Spirit, everything that we do has the purpose of saving souls, and good works by the Spirit. So that while we are living, God allows things in His will to happen, and not to happen to us, because we are trusting in Him, and knowing that we should be content in any situation God has us in, just as Paul was.

There are no accounts of any godly person in the Bible who were attacked because of money or things like that. Which is precisely what I have been saying all along. God keeps things from happening to us, so that we can live a life of faith, not worrying about our lives or trying to save them, because Christ said if we try to save our life we will lose it. But we are being busy about the Fathers business which is saving souls for His kingdom.

What do you think trusting in God is? Is it not a life of faith in God to do with us what He wants? I can tell you what it is not..... It is not thinking that we need guns or to protect ourselves, because in our own minds we think God is not capable to protect us. Faith, is not saying "I have faith in God" and carrying guns everywhere you go. You are trying to justify faithlessness in the very God who holds you together, and gives breath in your lungs. Human reasoning, is saying that God is not powerful enough to keep things from happening to the ones who are trusting in Him. True faith, is walking in obedience to God, and knowing that He is the only one trustworthy, and having full confidence in the God that saves in every way, not just outwardly.

Glas Ridire · Nov 23, 2012

allykelly07 said:
Why would Christ have said two swords were enough, if He didn't mean for them to get those swords for the one purpose of healing the mans ear? It was only for that reason, that He told them to get the swords and that two were enough. You seem to be missing the fact that, the way things worked in the old testament, are different than the way Christ said they are supposed to be now. When Christ came, He did not say anything about if we are attacked on the road, that we should strike out and kill someone because of it. On the contrary He said: "if anyone asks for your coat, give him your shirt as well, if anyone makes you go one mile with them, go two as well". "If any one strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other as well". That is exactly what Christ did when He was arrested, and He gave those same commands for us to live by as He did. There is a verse that says: Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Is it loving one's neighbor to listen to her getting gang raped at the bus stop across the street, look out the window and see the thugs smacking her around struggling to get her pants down and snuggle back into bed and go back to sleep? Simple question.

It is simple for me because I have been in that situation, I knew the cop's response time was more than 20 minutes in that neighborhood even though there was a precinct station about 5 blocks north. What is the Christian response when a woman is about to get gang raped?

allykelly07 · Nov 23, 2012

Glas Ridire said:
Is it loving one's neighbor to listen to her getting gang raped at the bus stop across the street, look out the window and see the thugs smacking her around struggling to get her pants down and snuggle back into bed and go back to sleep? Simple question.

It is simple for me because I have been in that situation, I knew the cop's response time was more than 20 minutes in that neighborhood even though there was a precinct station about 5 blocks north. What is the Christian response when a woman is about to get gang raped?

Not with guns. But by the power of the Spirit and the word of God.

Panzerkamfwagen · Nov 23, 2012

allykelly07 said:
Not with guns. But by the power of the Spirit and the word of God.

Does God ever speak through men, men like John Browning, Gaston Glock, or Samuel Colt?

MacFall · Nov 23, 2012

allykelly07 said:
Not with guns. But by the power of the Spirit and the word of God.

This sounds an awful lot like people who discourage others getting medical treatment for their diseases.

Marek · Nov 23, 2012

MacFall said:
This sounds an awful lot like people who discourage others getting medical treatment for their diseases.

Whether you agree or not, the Christian pacifist position is based on a reasonable interpretation of the gospels that suggests that Jesus spoke against the use of violence against enemies in any situation. I don't know of any verse that so clearly speaks against seeking medical treatment.

MacFall · Nov 23, 2012

I do not believe that the pacifist interpretation of the gospels is unreasonable. In fact I would be a pacifist myself but for one issue: the fact that I cannot believe that it is possible to love my neighbor while he or she screams for my help because I refuse to use even non-lethal force against an enemy.

I believe that the obligation to love our enemies extends to never using lethal force deliberately, and using as little force as possible in all cases; but when "love your neighbor" seems to conflict with "love your enemies", I will choose my peaceful neighbor over my violent enemy. If he dies at my hand by accident I will let God judge whether I am guilty for that, but my conscience would be clear. Yet my conscience would suffer for the rest of my life if I let my neighbor die at my enemy's hand.

SolomonVII · Nov 23, 2012

Pacifism seems to be about as morally bankrupt a system as there can be.

"In GUNS We Trust!" should be replaced by "In GOD We Trust!"

Sarcasm is kind of an art isn't it?

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Sarcasm is kind of an art isn't it?

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