Jesus is the SON not the Father.

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DeleseRose

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I tell u, I seriously need a firewall should GOD, JESUS, n The HOLY SPIRIT decide to send lightning bolts in the vacinity of some of the posters in this thread.
:pray: GOD grant us wisdom to comprehend your written WORD. Grant us understanding and deter us from hasty decisions and thus believing in the doctrines of devils. :pray:
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by EveOfGrace
Gee mooncrest, i would think as the Son of God, the Son would  then be heir to the throne?  He sits now, on the right hand of God the Father, till His enemies are made His footstool.  When He comes back it is as King of Kings so therefore would he not be inheriting the right of reign?  And thus, we also, as joint heirs, reign with Him. 

Is that what you mean?

 

Eve, Jesus will NEVER inherit the throne of God because God is IMMORTAL and does NOT die! God has given Jesus the throne of David (Luke 1:32-33).

Jesus is HEIR to God's PROMISE to "Abraham and his seed" as recorded in Gen. 17:1,7), thus: "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me and be thou perfect. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and to thy SEED after thee in their generations for an  everlasting covenant, to be a GOD unto thee, AND to thy SEED after thee."

The SEED Christ: "Now to Abraham and his SEED were the PROMISES made. He does NOT say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your SEED," who is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).

And DISCIPLES of Christ are JOINT-HEIRS with Christ in God's PROMISE to Abraham: "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's SEED, and HEIRS accoding to the PROMISE" (Gal. 3:29).

"And if children, then HEIRS - HEIRS of God and JOINT-HEIRS with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together" (Rom. 8:17).


The PROMISE that God MADE to Abraham and his SEED (Christ) is "to be GOD unto Abraham and his SEED (Christ)." This means, "HEIRS and JOINT-HEIRS with Christ according to the HOPE of ETERNAL LIFE" (Titus 3:7).

This means, Jesus is NOT God!

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by DeleseRose
I tell u, I seriously need a firewall should GOD, JESUS, n The HOLY SPIRIT decide to send lightning bolts in the vacinity of some of the posters in this thread.
:pray: GOD grant us wisdom to comprehend your written WORD. Grant us understanding and deter us from hasty decisions and thus believing in the doctrines of devils. :pray:

DeleseRose,

Jesus SAID: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you the Truth..." (John 8:40).

Jesus SAID: "Father, the hourhas come.... And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom YOU  SENT" (John 17:1,3).

May God, the Father, grant YOU wisdom to comprehend Jesus' written WORD. Grant YOU understanding and deter YOU from hasty decisions and thus believing in the doctrines of devils.

BTW, if you are interested in knowing what doctrines of devils are, turn the pages of your Bible to 1 Tim. 4:1-3.

Ed 
 
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Ed,

Did you realize what you just posted?

 
The SEED Christ: "Now to Abraham and his SEED were the PROMISES made. He does NOT say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your SEED," who is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).

You just said, 'Not many, but as of one' Are you trying to say there that Christ is the only seed spoken of?  And if so, then why did you then post "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's SEED, and HEIRS accoding to the PROMISE" (Gal. 3:29).
That just explained that the word SEED, includes more than one person.  Kinda like my great grandfathers seed includes me.

Being heir, AS the Son, doesnt mean Jesus isnt God.  Are you implying that Jesus was not born of a virgin?

The next post quoted PART of scripture without any context. It even skipped over and plucked out a few words to make it say only a certain thing.     
Jesus SAID: "Father, the hourhas come.... And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom YOU SENT" (John 17:1,3).
You emphasized YOU, the ONLY true God but did not emphasize AND Jesus Christ.  Your emphasis prompts the reader to understand that they may know the Father, but skipped over knowing the Son.

You also conveniently skipped, in verse 1 even, "Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You." and verse 2, that states He, Jesus, as the giver of eternal life.  Can a mere man do that? 

And of course, verse 5, And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Thats a pretty big one to skip over, as though reading the rest, without that, sais it all.  How did Jesus have glory with the Father before the world was?

Simple. They were always together, as One God. How can that be?  According to you its a lie. When you say God, what is that?  What is God?  In the beginning God created.....was Jesus there?  According to John He was.   

God said, Let Us make man...who is us? 

"You seek to kill Me, a man". Yes, Jesus WAS a man.  God did send Him, but send Him from where?  He had to BE before He can be sent.  John said, He had glory with the Father before the world was. Doesnt it stand then, that Jesus was of the US in Genesis?

Is it so hard to grasp that God is not a flat surface or an ordinary object?  That He is a personal Spirit and that Spirit contains more than 1 virtue?  That if He so chooses He can send that Spirit to dwell in flesh and make unto Himself and man a Beloved Son? 

Emmanuel means? God with us.

 EveOfGrace

    

 
 
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Oh Hello,

I'm very new to this Polemic Universe.

I'm pleased to meet all of you.

I hope that I can contribute something to this dialogue by pointing out that there does exist a three-way relationship analogous to the Holy Trinity:

Time, Space, and Matter.

Time and Matter seem to be able to inhabit the latter, at the same time.

Even though each of these are clearly separate concepts, they all seem to be inextricably linked to one other.

Isn't possible that the almighty created reality (time, space, and matter) in His image. :)

 

                             -Food for thought

                               Thanks.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by EveOfGrace
Ed,

Did you realize what you just posted?

 
The SEED Christ: "Now to Abraham and his SEED were the PROMISES made. He does NOT say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your SEED," who is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).

You just said, 'Not many, but as of one' Are you trying to say there that Christ is the only seed spoken of?  And if so, then why did you then post "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's SEED, and HEIRS according to the PROMISE" (Gal. 3:29).
That just explained that the word SEED, includes more than one person.  Kinda like my great grandfathers seed includes me.

Being heir, AS the Son, doesnt mean Jesus isnt God.  Are you implying that Jesus was not born of a virgin?


Obviously, you missed my point. God MADE a PROMISE to Abraham and Abraham's SEED (Gen. 17:7) That SEED is Christ (Gal. 3:16). God PROMISED Abraham that He (God) will be a God to Abraham and his SEED after him. Thus, God will be a God even to Christ.

Now, if  you are Christ's (meaning, you  BELONG to Christ), then you are also an HEIR to God's PROMISE to Abraham.

The next post quoted PART of scripture without any context. It even skipped over and plucked out a few words to make it say only a certain thing.

Jesus SAID: "Father, the hour has come.... And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom YOU SENT" (John 17:1,3). 

You emphasized YOU, the ONLY true God but did not emphasize AND Jesus Christ.  Your emphasis prompts the reader to understand that they may know the Father, but skipped over knowing the Son.

The emphasis of this post is on knowing that the Father is the ONLY true God - not on knowing the son who was SENT by the ONLY true God.

You also conveniently skipped, in verse 1 even, "Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You." and verse 2, that states He, Jesus, as the giver of eternal life.  Can a mere man do that? 

These parts of the verse do NOT cross out what the parts I emphasized TEACH. Of course, Jesus was NOT a MERE man. He was an extraordinary man. But John 17:3 says he is NOT God because the Father (not he) is the ONLY true God!

And of course, verse 5, And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Thats a pretty big one to skip over, as though reading the rest, without that, sais it all.  How did Jesus have glory with the Father before the world was?

Again, this verse does NOT cross out John 17:3 which says that the Father is the ONLY true God. How the Son got the glory WITH the Father BEFORE the world was is IRRELEVANT. That does NOT in any way make Jesus God because he is the SON - not the Father who is the ONLY true God.

Simple. They were always together, as One God. How can that be?  According to you its a lie. When you say God, what is that?  What is God?  In the beginning God created.....was Jesus there?  According to John He was.

Are you telling me that you are MORE authoritative than Jesus? Are you telling me that what Jesus SAID in John 17:1,3 is false? Show me where it CLEARLY says that they were always together as ONE God? And don't make apostle John say what he did not say, please!   

God said, Let Us make man...who is us? 

Where does it say that it was Jesus whom God was talking to? Only in your head my friend. I suggest you consult a head doctor.

"You seek to kill Me, a man". Yes, Jesus WAS a man.  God did send Him, but send Him from where?  He had to BE before He can be sent.  John said, He had glory with the Father before the world was. Doesnt it stand then, that Jesus was of the US in Genesis?
John the Baptist was a MAN sent  by God (John 1:6). Was John with God also? Your SPECULATION will get nowhere. It is safer to BELIEVE what is CLEARLY written and understood - ME, a MAN (John 8:40) and YOU, the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Why is it so hard to TRULY believe Jesus and do as he says?

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Prodigious Prime
Oh Hello,

I'm very new to this Polemic Universe.

I'm pleased to meet all of you.

I hope that I can contribute something to this dialogue by pointing out that there does exist a three-way relationship analogous to the Holy Trinity:

Time, Space, and Matter.

Time and Matter seem to be able to inhabit the latter, at the same time.

Even though each of these are clearly separate concepts, they all seem to be inextricably linked to one other.

Isn't possible that the almighty created reality (time, space, and matter) in His image. :)

 

                             -Food for thought

                               Thanks.

Opinions CONFUSE, facts CONFIRM. Stick to the FACT that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3).

Ed
 
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The emphasis of this post is on knowing that the Father is the ONLY true God - not on knowing the son who was SENT by the ONLY true God.
That is unfortunate.  Why make emphasis on knowing the Father but not the Son when the verse does say, 'that they may know You, the only true God AND Jesus Christ whom You sent.'  The everlasting life spoken of here comes through KNOWING them BOTH.  I know, your point was to emphasize and separate the ONLY true God and skip knowing them both, which that verse makes inseparable.  Jesus doesnt say THAT the Father is the only true God, He sais: that they may know You, the only true God AND Jesus Christ,(which here He is speaking in a third person) it clearly combines them into knowing BOTH. Knowing one, means knowing both. Does it say the ONE and only?  

  
How the Son got the glory WITH the Father BEFORE the world was is IRRELEVANT. That does NOT in any way make Jesus God
Irrelevant?  That Jesus had Glory with the Father before the world is meaningless?  I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another(Isa 42:8)

 
Are you telling me that you are MORE authoritative than Jesus? Are you telling me that what Jesus SAID in John 17:1,3 is false? Show me where it CLEARLY says that they were always together as ONE God? And don't make apostle John say what he did not say, please!
What Jesus said in John 17:3  i already stated above. Jesus, as the Son, in flesh, on earth is praying. He gives honor to His Father, by calling Him, of course the only true God and also mentions HIMSELF, by name.  Why does He use His own name as if He is a third party narrater?

show you where it clearly says that they were always together as one God? And i will not make John say anything but pure word.:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD.  HE WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth(Gen1:1)

They were CLEARLY together, from the beginning.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End", says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (rev1:8)  

I and My Father are one.(John 10:30)

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that i speak to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who DWELLS in Me does the work.(John 14:10) 

That was just in John alone.

In Hebrews, the Father Himself calls Jesus God!

But to the Son He says:

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;(Heb 1:8)

For in Him dwells ALL THE FULLNESS of the Godhead BODILY.(Col.2:9)

That is pure word, no speculation.

Titus sais: according to the commandment of God our Savior;(1:3) God our Savior?

 
Where does it say that it was Jesus whom God was talking to? Only in your head my friend. I suggest you consult a head doctor.
I didnt say God was talking to Jesus. Jesus IS the Word. I simply asked you, in Genesis, where it sais, Let US make man.....who is Us?

John the Baptist was a MAN sent by God (John 1:6). Was John with God also?
No, John had a biological father, Zacharias.(Luke1) Who by the way, was told by Gabriel that his son, John, 'will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God'.  

EveOfGrace
 
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Evee

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There is so many scriptures that say God is God and Jesus is the son of God.

 I am having a hard time trying to figure how you think Jesus is God he is the son of God.

 He gets his power from his father.

 Jesus is our advocate with the father when we sin.

 We pray our prayers in Jesus name because God gave him that authority.  Evee
 
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Evee,

Yes, Jesus is the Son of God.  He is also called the Son of Man.  How do you reckon this?  How can He be both?

The scriptures i posted above, such as I and My Father are ONE.

And in the beginning the Word(Jesus) WAS God.

Before He came here, housed in flesh, was He non existant?  Before God sent Him, where was He and Who was He?

If He was ONLY a man, then why the need of a virgin?

EveOfGrace
 
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drmmjr

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Originally posted by EveOfGrace
Evee,

Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. He is also called the Son of Man. How do you reckon this? How can He be both?

Jesus had a heavenly father and an earthly mother. He is the Son of God and the son of Mary (man). Not that hard to see.

The scriptures i posted above, such as I and My Father are ONE.

John 17:11 - And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:20 - Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 - That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 - I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

In the verses listed above, Jesus speaks of those that God has given to Jesus as being one just as God and Jesus are one. Now does this mean that we are all the same person. No, it means that we are unified (one) in our beliefs and are all working toward the same goal.

And in the beginning the Word(Jesus) WAS God.

Word is translated from LOGOS. LOGOS - a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea.

Yes, the LOGOS (plan) of God was manifested as Jesus. But until that small baby was born in Bethlehem, the plan was not physical. It was still in the mind of God. When God created Jesus in the womb of Mary, then the plan became active.

Before He came here, housed in flesh, was He non existant? Before God sent Him, where was He and Who was He?

See above.

If He was ONLY a man, then why the need of a virgin?

EveOfGrace

Jesus was not ONLY a man. He was the Christ. Christ = "anointed". He was the man that God created in the virgin Mary. Why a virgin? Think about it. How better to show that Jesus was the one that God would use to remove the sin of the world.
 
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lared

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Evee:

Shhh. Don't mention the name Jehovah around here.

There are those with Jehovah phobia. They do not like that name and refuse to use it. Even quite a few English Bibles have censored out the name.

They say that we don't know or that it isn't the correct pronunciation of the heavenly Father.-------Certainly the name Jesus is not the correct original pronunciation and yet they still use this common modern day English rendering.

Not addressing the heavenly Father by name then....can add to the mystery of their 3 in 1 god by using titles.

And all of this makes Satan happy....because after all....he does not want anyone at all to worship the only true God---Jehovah. Why, he even tried to persuade Jesus away from his worship of Jehovah by tempting him.

Imagine....if Jesus was the Almighty God.....what a farce the account in the Bible would be of Satan offering Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for an act of worship. On the other hand.....if Jesus was not Almighty God.....it could be tempting to become ruler of the world and not have to go through the prospects that lay ahead for Jesus (his pitiful death).

Sincerely, Lared
 
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layne

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I totally agree that God is the one and only JEHOVAH!!
I am so glad that I know the truth and can dedicate every prayer to God Almighty! It's wonderful to see that other people can accept this truth as well.
There are so many verses of the Bible that are misinterpreted, just as drmmjr pointed out. That was very well said!
:)
 
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edward

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43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] HE: before me there was no ùGod formed, neither shall there be after me.

43:11 I, I [am] Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.

43:12 It is I that have declared, and have saved, and have shewed, when there was no strange [god] among you; and ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, that I [am] ùGod.

43:13 Yea, since the day was, I [am] HE, and there is none that delivereth out of my hand: I will work, and who shall hinder it?

43:14 Thus saith Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought all of them down as fugitives, even the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

Who is your Lord and Savior? It couldn't be Jesus!
 
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Jesus had a heavenly father and an earthly mother. He is the Son of God and the son of Mary (man). Not that hard to see.
the son of Mary? Mary was a woman. doesnt it go a little farther than that?

 
Word is translated from LOGOS. LOGOS - a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea.
Yes, the LOGOS (plan) of God was manifested as Jesus. But until that small baby was born in Bethlehem, the plan was not physical. It was still in the mind of God. When God created Jesus in the womb of Mary, then the plan became active.
First you said LOGOS means a word, uttered by a LIVING voice. Then you say its a plan? And because the 'plan' was not physical it was then not active?  So the old testament prophets were speaking of something inactive.  Doesnt it say, the Logos WAS God and with God? Was God then inactive because He is Spirit rather than a physical manifestation?  Even if you use the word 'plan', it still sais, and the Plan was with God and the Plan was God.  Either way, Word, Logos, Plan, it still sais WAS GOD.  And the word, logos, plan, was MADE FLESH and dwelt among us.  You said God created Jesus in the womb of Mary. But God sais that He already WAS, in the beginning. And all things were made through Him. Does that sound inactive?  WAS GOD, and MADE flesh.  

Christ does mean 'annointed'. Jesus means "Jehovah is salvation"

How is Jehovah salvation when its the name of Jesus by which man is saved?  Because Jesus IS Jehovah our salvation. Look at what Edward posted.  God is our Savior. Jesus is our Savior. They are one God.  My name is Eve. I am a mother, i am also a daughter, but still one ME.

 
In the verses listed above, Jesus speaks of those that God has given to Jesus as being one just as God and Jesus are one. Now does this mean that we are all the same person. No, it means that we are unified (one) in our beliefs and are all working toward the same goal.
One in our beliefs and that is all that unifies us?  What goal are we working toward that makes us one? We are ONE BODY. What?  This must really be hard for you if you see Jesus as separate from God.

many members in one body..Rom12:4

for we though many are one bread and one body...1cor10:17 Of which Jesus is the head. One body. One bride. One Church. Many members, one body.

Not addressing the heavenly Father by name then....can add to the mystery of their 3 in 1 god by using titles.
Why would I not address Father as Jehovah?  I call Jesus by His name as well, or "my Lord". I also address the Holy Spirit as "Holy Spirit" or "teacher". or "my comfort". I  do usually say, "Father", or "my Abba", or sometimes "Dad", but not because i do not recognize Him as Jehovah. I use Daddy for much the same reason i do not address my earthly father as Patrick.  "hi Pat, how was your day, want some dinner?" just doesnt seem appropriate.  Even Jesus said 'Our Father', as reverence.  Good grief, i dont need to add to a mystery when i see no mystery. 

If Mary as Jesus mother, passed on to Him her fleshly nature, which makes man a man, then what did Jehovah as Jesus Father, pass on to Him?  His Godly nature, which makes God God.  Is it really so hard to understand?

 

Now this one is really outlandish and rather sad:

 
Imagine....if Jesus was the Almighty God.....what a farce the account in the Bible would be of Satan offering Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for an act of worship. On the other hand.....if Jesus was not Almighty God.....it could be tempting to become ruler of the world and not have to go through the prospects that lay ahead for Jesus (his pitiful death).

This implies that Satan tempts spirit. Jesus being Almighty(rev1:8) in Spirit, has absolutely no bearing on temptation by Satan, no one for that matter is tempted of his spirit.  God was clothed in FLESH. Satan was tempting Him and ALL MEN through WORKS OF THE FLESH.  That is the war that raged, and still does, since Adam. This is the whole entire PURPOSE of God being in that flesh. To CRUCIFY it once and for all. 

With that, since it is not even recognized how that our adversary works against God and us, His children and therefore redemption is not understood , i can say no more.

 

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, AND the love of God, AND the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

EveOfGrace 

  
 
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