Jesus named Simeon bar Jonah Peter, the rock upon whom the Church is built.

OrthodoxyUSA · Nov 14, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
That is not true. I've already quoted from protestant sources and from ancient sources.

You're either in communion with Rome or not.

Rome claims to be The Church that all others must come under.

So....

ROME / EVERYONE ELSE (Unam Sanctam)

If Rome will not recant her position on Papal Supremacy, talks with The Churches of the east are a waste of time.

Forgive me...

MoreCoffee · Nov 14, 2012

OrthodoxyUSA said:
You're either in communion with Rome or not.

Rome claims to be The Church that all others must come under.

So....

ROME / EVERYONE ELSE (Unam Sanctam)

If Rome will not recant her position on Papal Supremacy, talks with The Churches of the east are a waste of time.

Forgive me...

No everyone shares the black vs white dichotomy that you present as the only possible view of the Catholic Church.

OrthodoxyUSA · Nov 14, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
No everyone shares the black vs white dichotomy that you present as the only possible view of the Catholic Church.

Then you truely do not understand the Orthodox Churches. :wave:

Those who wish to leave and become Papists are free to do so... but, when they do, they have left the Orthodox Church.

Unity between the Churches has been divided by this issue... as long as it stands, there can be no true unity.

Forgive me...

MoreCoffee · Nov 14, 2012

OrthodoxyUSA said:
Then you truely do not understand the Orthodox Churches.

Forgive me...

I am not a member of any of the Orthodox jurisdictions. If it is understanding of the Orthodox churches that is wanted then can you not provide it?

I am a Catholic and I am willing to try to present a Catholic understanding.

PS: I noticed that you expanded your post considerably after I started my reply. These are the words that were added

Those who wish to leave and become Papists are free to do so... but, when they do, they have left the Orthodox Church.

Unity between the Churches has been divided by this issue... as long as it stands, there can be no true unity.

Unity in the bond of peace under the one baptism, faith, and Lord who we all confess as Saviour and God is what is needed.

OrthodoxyUSA · Nov 14, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
I am not a member of any of the Orthodox jurisdictions. If it is understanding of the Orthodox churches that is wanted then can you not provide it?

I am a Catholic and I am willing to try to present a Catholic understanding.

I am Eastern Orthodox. Specifically, I am a member of The Church of Antioch. I am willing to try to present the Orthodox understanding.

Forgive me...

MoreCoffee · Nov 14, 2012

On the matter of sussession I can do no better that to quote from Pope John Paul II

"The Catholic Church is conscious that she has preserved the ministry of the successor of the apostle, Peter, the Bishop of Rome, whom God established as her perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity and whom the Spirit sustains in order that he may enable all the others to share in this essential good. The Bishop of Rome is the Bishop of the Church which preserves the mark of the martyrdom of Peter and Paul. By a mysterious design of Providence, it is at Rome that Peter concludes his journey in following Jesus, and it is at Rome that he gives his greatest proof of love and fidelity. Likewise, Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles, gives his supreme witness at Rome. In this way, the Church of Rome is and becomes the Church of Saints Peter and Paul."

OrthodoxyUSA · Nov 14, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
Unity in the bond of peace under the one baptism, faith, and Lord who we all confess as Saviour and God is what is needed.

I speak of DOGMATIC unity... you seem to speak of ecumenism?

Forgive me...

OrthodoxyUSA · Nov 14, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
On the matter of sussession I can do no better that to quote from Pope John Paul II

"The Catholic Church is conscious that she has preserved the ministry of the successor of the apostle, Peter, the Bishop of Rome, whom God established as her perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity and whom the Spirit sustains in order that he may enable all the others to share in this essential good. The Bishop of Rome is the Bishop of the Church which preserves the mark of the martyrdom of Peter and Paul. By a mysterious design of Providence, it is at Rome that Peter concludes his journey in following Jesus, and it is at Rome that he gives his greatest proof of love and fidelity. Likewise, Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles, gives his supreme witness at Rome. In this way, the Church of Rome is and becomes the Church of Saints Peter and Paul."

As much as I loved the man. He is wrong.

Forgive me...

MoreCoffee · Nov 14, 2012

OrthodoxyUSA said:
I speak of DOGMATIC unity... you seem to speak of ecumenism?

Forgive me...

I was thinking of a passage from the letters of saint Paul in which he says,

I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
(Ephesians 4:1-6)

MoreCoffee · Nov 14, 2012

OrthodoxyUSA said:
As much as I loved the man. He is wrong.

Forgive me...

Love is a beginning.

Optimax · Nov 14, 2012

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day,

Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peters confession. What is Peters confession? You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. Theres the rock for you, theres the foundation, theres where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer."

Source: John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327.

Amen.

The rock of Peter's confession was revealed to peter by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore the "credit/Glory" goes to God not Peter.

Every born again person has this same revelation from The Holy Spirit available to them.

That revelation is the only way the Word of God is understood, comprehended and acted on by people.

Again!

The Glory/credit goes to God not man or "Church".

MoreCoffee · Nov 14, 2012

Optimax said:
Amen.

The rock of Peter's confession was revealed to peter by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore the "credit/Glory" goes to God not Peter.

Every born again person has this same revelation from The Holy Spirit available to them.

That revelation is the only way the Word of God is understood, comprehended and acted on by people.

Again!

The Glory/credit goes to God not man or "Church".

Yet, for all that you've said, Christ also said these things:

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
[*]Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[*]"Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
[*]"Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Optimax · Nov 14, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
Yet, for all that you've said, Christ also said these things:

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

"Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."

"Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Yes He did.

Remember though it takes the revelation from the Holy Spirit to understand, comprehend and act on them.

MoreCoffee · Nov 14, 2012

Optimax said:
Yes He did.

Remember though it takes the revelation from the Holy Spirit to understand, comprehend and act on them.

Yes it does. It is also a gift given to the apostles, the eleven chosen by Christ while he was on earth and the twelfth chosen by Christ after his ascension, which they gave to others whom they selected and who became the successors to the apostles when the apostles fell asleep in death.

Going Merry · Nov 14, 2012

Well these passages are all fine and dandy but I don't see how this begins a long line of pope overlords who in the past did some pretty bad things.

BBAS 64 · Nov 14, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
One historian differs from another. I can see why a quote from an authority might be offered in a debate as evidence for one position but it is only fair to note that others take a different view and that, in my opinion, makes the quote's claim moot.

Good day, MC

Really... well let's see another, I think that Fr. Raymond Brown has the same view on the issue.

Bill

MoreCoffee · Nov 14, 2012

Going Merry said:
Well these passages are all fine and dandy but I don't see how this begins a long line of pope overlords who in the past did some pretty bad things.

I've read Clement's of Rome's letter to the Corinthians (written abound 96 AD) in which he offers an explanation of how the apostle's provided for succession in church leadership.

Clement of Rome wrote about the order with which Jesus commanded the affairs of the Church be conducted. The liturgies are "to be celebrated, and not carelessly nor in disorder," and the selection of persons was also "by His supreme will determined" (see Letter of Clement to the Corinthians, ch. 40). Clement emphasized that the relationship between God, Jesus, the apostles, and the orders given to the apostles, are "made in an orderly way". Jurgens states that Clement cites Isaiah 60:17 which in some translations includes "I will make thy visitation peace, and thy overseers justice" (emphasis added). In chapter 43 of the cited "Letter" Clement refers to the way "rivalry ... concerning the priesthood" was resolved by or through Moses, and in chapter 44, that likewise, the apostles "gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry."

(See Wikipedia)

OrthodoxyUSA · Nov 14, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
Love is a beginning.

Tough love will tell you when you are mistaken.

Forgive me...

MoreCoffee · Nov 14, 2012

BBAS 64 said:
Good day, MC

Really... well let's see another, I think that Fr. Raymond Brown has the same view on the issue.

Bill

This is a contested issue, do you agree? That is why the citation of this and that authority is moot. Other authorities can be cited who hold a different view. My perspective is that the passage (Matthew 16:18-19) is best read somewhat like this:

So I will call you Peter, which means "a rock." On this rock I will build my church, and death itself will not have any power over it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and God in heaven will allow whatever you allow on earth. But he will not allow anything that you don't allow.
(Matthew 16:18-19)

I read it as naming Simeon bar Jonah "Peter" which means Rock and then saying that upon this Peter (Rock) Christ will build his church. Others read it differently. Do you think there is some objective way to resolve the differences?

BBAS 64 · Nov 14, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
Yes it does. It is also a gift given to the apostles, the eleven chosen by Christ while he was on earth and the twelfth chosen by Christ after his ascension, which they gave to others whom they selected and who became the successors to the apostles when the apostles fell asleep in death.

Very interestuing interpretation of those verses, not sure if I agree but none the les....

Jesus named Simeon bar Jonah Peter, the rock upon whom the Church is built.

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