Heard any honest reasons for declining word of faith?

The problem with that is that I was getting to be a Hagin follower, rather than a Christ follow. Thank God for good teachers but we shouldn't become overly dependent upon them.

Click to expand...

It's true we don't follow men. We follow men as they follow Christ. People like Hagin teach the Body of Christ faith. This is one of the foundational principles a believer should be solid in. Like yourself, I read many (really all at one point) of his books and listened to as many tapes as I could get my hands on. I was in good company. The reason for this (as you know) is because the edified you. I still have a huge collection of recordings (and many thousands of other anointed teachings).

Hagin was the first real teacher that got through to me the importance of adhering to the Word of God. I always felt like I was in a safe place when I listened to him. I felt connected to the day he grew up in somehow as well. I remember as a baby Christian, I would drive out to McKinney where he grew up. I went to the clock tower in the town square where he made his big declaration. I went by his little house in my small suburb of Dallas. It seemed to make the world smaller and seemed to bring it home a bit more.

Like you, the Lord wants us to follow Him and not man. I told many a friend about Hagin's testimony, since it was real and miraculous. I've been to three of his meetings. Each time, the Lord didn't let me feel one ounce of the anticipation we might have for meeting people we hold in high esteem. It was the Lord we came to see in the meeting, and He made sure I knew who I was following.

Hagin was good at teaching you how to be led by the Spirit of God. You're weak just having the Word and incomplete just following the Spirit. I never agreed with the doctrine of Jesus suffering in Hell. That's the only place we really parted doctrinally.

If Paul had this gift then why did he leave Trophimus sick in Miletus? Did Peter have a "shadow anointing" and is that better than a "gift of healing"?

Click to expand...

Here's something I got from Hagin. You can't make the gifts of the Spirit operate when you want them to. You can give the Lord an environment to move in. This may be why Paul left Tropimus sick, because Paul can't make the gifts of healings or miracles operate when he wants it to. Peter had an anointing and the Spirit of God would speak to the hearts of those to position themselves for Peter's shadow. Faith comes by hearing and they had to hear it to have faith for it.

We probably do have an incomplete understanding of the believer's laying on of hands and how this relates to the anointing upon and the anointing within. If Jesus told Hagin (not to wear it out, but it's instructive!) that you could always pray for a believer (even if they didn't have faith) and He would speed up the healing process. He said He would "always do that for you". This is different than saying, I will always activate the healing anointing for you. That is done only as the Spirit wills. Granted, if His people roll out the red carpet and that gifting is present, He will often move for His people who believe in Him.

Jesus said this anointing could increase on a believer too, so there is something to visiting ministers who are known to "carry' a healing anointing or an anointing for the working of miracles. A minister with a lifetime of yieldedness is a powerful vessel for restoration, and if you have a need, consider even travelling great distances to get around it. Pray about it and see where the Lord might send you to to meet your need. You can always believe God with your personal faith for your healing, but that usually takes much longer and you've got to fight the good fight of faith until your healing manifests in between.

PastorMike said:

Your understanding is off, based on your theology Jesus didn't have enough faith either...



Mark 6:4 But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.”

Mark 6:5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.

Mark 6:6 And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching.

Jesus definitely had the power to heal, but in this case it says he could do no mighty works because of their unbelief...

When Jesus went to raise the little girl from the dead he put out the unbelievers because he couldn't do it when they were present...

People make the mistake in thinking that faith is always present, we know the disciple healed on many occasions, healed the sick and cast out devils...

But on one occasion... Matt. 17:19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”

Matt. 17:20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief;

This time the disciples were in unbelief... Unbelief is the key, we need to root out unbelief and "this kind goeth not out but by prayer and by fasting..."

Click to expand...

Excellent post. Absolutely right on target. A++

splat said:

OK, I think we might need a bit of balance here. I don't think its always the sick persons responsibility to have faith. Lazarus didn't have faith. He died and Jesus had to raise him up. It obviously wasn't Lazarus's faith that got him well.

Another example is the Centurion's servant. The sick servant was not the one to entreat Jesus for healing. It was somebody else that went to entreat on his behalf.

Click to expand...

Mike's post addresses unbelief. Unbelief will stop healing no matter how much faith you have -- for I promise you Jesus had more! Show me one example where he forced healing upon someone who didn't want it. It isn't there.

Moving further and speaking of how much faith a person needs to get healing for himself is another aspect of healing. One does not need faith at all as long as they are willing and there is one with the faith necessary for healing.

And then there is Mercy from God -- in this case nobody needs faith, just willingness.

And finally there is Sovereign will -- God will be done to His purposes.

ABlessedMan said:

Mike's post addresses unbelief. Unbelief will stop healing no matter how much faith you have -- for I promise you Jesus had more! Show me one example where he forced healing upon someone who didn't want it. It isn't there.

Moving further and speaking of how much faith a person needs to get healing for himself is another aspect of healing. One does not need faith at all as long as they are willing and there is one with the faith necessary for healing.

And then there is Mercy from God -- in this case nobody needs faith, just willingness.

And finally there is Sovereign will -- God will be done to His purposes.

Click to expand...

Wise words bro...

weariedsoul said:

Maybe its Gods way that we pray for each other. Maybe that's the design

Click to expand...

Well that is part of the design.

Many times we talk about scripture and life as if we were perfect. We aren't. We strive TOWARD perfection, but only Jesus is perfect. If we had perfect faith then we would never face sickness (never need prayer?). But sometimes we are caught unawares and the curse touches us. Sometimes we are "weak" of faith, and the support of our brothers and sisters is necessary.

This is why scripture tells us to pray one for another. This should never be a crutch that stops you from building up your faith, learning to use your faith and ultimately wielding your faith like a weapon.

ABlessedMan said:

Well that is part of the design.

Many times we talk about scripture and life as if we were perfect. We aren't. We strive TOWARD perfection, but only Jesus is perfect. If we had perfect faith then we would never face sickness (never need prayer?). But sometimes we are caught unawares and the curse touches us. Sometimes we are "weak" of faith, and the support of our brothers and sisters is necessary.

This is why scripture tells us to pray one for another. This should never be a crutch that stops you from building up your faith, learning to use your faith and ultimately wielding your faith like a weapon.

Click to expand...

Amen, we put on the whole armor of God.

ABlessedMan said:

Well that is part of the design.

Many times we talk about scripture and life as if we were perfect. We aren't. We strive TOWARD perfection, but only Jesus is perfect. If we had perfect faith then we would never face sickness (never need prayer?). But sometimes we are caught unawares and the curse touches us. Sometimes we are "weak" of faith, and the support of our brothers and sisters is necessary.

This is why scripture tells us to pray one for another. This should never be a crutch that stops you from building up your faith, learning to use your faith and ultimately wielding your faith like a weapon.

Click to expand...

I havent studied these scriptures from other translations so im unsure what these scriptures mean exactly. What do you think about 1 Co 11:30? Is paul saying that people get sick because of sin? And if that is what he means what do you think about James 5 13-14?


1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.



Jas 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

weariedsoul said:

I havent studied these scriptures from other translations so im unsure what these scriptures mean exactly. What do you think about 1 Co 11:30? Is paul saying that people get sick because of sin? And if that is what he means what do you think about James 5 13-14?


1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Click to expand...

In Corinth there were people who would come to church to eat (one must remember that first century church was quite different than services today). These did not take the Lord's supper seriously. And because they disparaged the true meaning of the bread and the wine but rather came to eat to get full, they were calling guilt upon themselves. From this they stepped out of the will of God and moved into the curse, in which they would get weak, sick and even die.

One of the hard parts of this set of verses is verse 31. If we judge ourselves in this matter, then we would not eat and drink unworthily. If we would take it reverently then we would partake in His blessing upon us.

And if we do this, then v31b: "we shall not be judged." Does this indicate that the weak, sick and death come from judgement of the Lord? We know from other parts of the scripture, especially about the nature of God, that He does not use the curse to teach us.

So, for the sake of discussion I ask: what should we make of v 31?

ABlessedMan said:

In Corinth there were people who would come to church to eat (one must remember that first century church was quite different than services today). These did not take the Lord's supper seriously. And because they disparaged the true meaning of the bread and the wine but rather came to eat to get full, they were calling guilt upon themselves. From this they stepped out of the will of God and moved into the curse, in which they would get weak, sick and even die.

One of the hard parts of this set of verses is verse 31. If we judge ourselves in this matter, then we would not eat and drink unworthily. If we would take it reverently then we would partake in His blessing upon us.

And if we do this, then v31b: "we shall not be judged." Does this indicate that the weak, sick and death come from judgement of the Lord? We know from other parts of the scripture, especially about the nature of God, that He does not use the curse to teach us.

So, for the sake of discussion I ask: what should we make of v 31?

Click to expand...

I disagree that God doesn't use curses. The earth is cursed for mans sake so says the bible.. And God says we reap what we sow, if we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption. God has set laws into motion, if we step in front of a car the law demands that we will get hurt. God didnt hurt us though , the car did.

As far as verse 31 goes i think it means that we should judge ourselves instead of allowing Gods judgment to fall on us.

I assume anyway, not sure though.

Paul says when we judge ourselves that its Christ who judges us, if we ignore that judgement and refuse to judge our self then we ignore God.

When we limit the extent of what Christ suffered for us, we eat and drink unworthily and suffer the loss that proper understanding would bring

PastorMike said:

Your understanding is off, based on your theology Jesus didn't have enough faith either...

Click to expand...

ABlessedMan said:

Excellent post. Absolutely right on target. A++

Click to expand...

I think the A++ is a little over doing it.

ABlessedMan said:

Mike's post addresses unbelief.

Click to expand...

PastorMike said:

Wise words bro...

Click to expand...

lol, you guys are alright, i don't agree necessarily but you're alright in my book.

weariedsoul said:

I disagree that God doesn't use curses. The earth is cursed for mans sake so says the bible.. And God says we reap what we sow, if we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption. God has set laws into motion, if we step in front of a car the law demands that we will get hurt. God didnt hurt us though , the car did.

Click to expand...

Nor the car or God hurt us, but by our own free will.
We control our destiny to choose life or death.
Just because the earth became cursed it was by mans choice not Gods.
It is Gods will that none should perish, this confirms reaping and sowing.
The only law at work is our gift of free will, Christ bore the curse.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree

now faith said:

Nor the car or God hurt us, but by our own free will.
We control our destiny to choose life or death.
Just because the earth became cursed it was by mans choice not Gods.
It is Gods will that none should perish, this confirms reaping and sowing.
The only law at work is our gift of free will, Christ bore the curse.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree

Click to expand...

Yet the earth is still cursed for mans sake.

weariedsoul said:

Yet the earth is still cursed for mans sake.

Click to expand...

Only if you're an unbeliever. Those in Christ have the blessings of Abraham, if they choose.

Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.

Word of Faith study to find out what that means.

If you don't find out for yourself what this means you'll live in the curse in areas you're ignorant of Christ's redemptive work.

"...do not be concerned that some do not see your message. There are those who are hungrey for truth and who are seeking light. If there is truth in what you are saying, it will ring in their hearts like a bell. Those who are seeking will find, and if what they are seeking is in your saying, they will know it."

Click to expand...

Dids

I am seeking information on healing. I have read "where 2 or more are gathered" let them ask what they will and it shall be done. I have read how Jesus healed "all that were brought" to Him. How Jesus raised Lazurus from the dead (in the midst of apparent doubt). I read where the deacons are to be called and the sick person is to be annointed with oil and healed....etc etc. i have been taught God is no respector of persons and that it is His nature to heal..

Yet I see person after person request and receive prayers for healing for this and that and the answer seems to be no. Why? What is it that we are doing wrong or not doing that does not net us the same results as the disciples who went about healing the sick etc. Why are we not lined up at hospitals etc and effecting healing. Is this invalid today? Does the 2 or more gathered promise not extend to healing?

I am not very familiar w/WOF but am told this group believes in healing today the same as it was done then. Is this correct? Can anyone shed some light on this? I have posed this question as have others in the "healing threads" and basicly got "I don't know" as the answer.

One case I will ask in point is the case of the 13 yr old Lane Goodwin who recently died of cancer (some may be familiar) People all over the world prayed for healing and gathered and yet the boy passed away...How does this work or not work? Does God just say no; sometimes?

If you look at the statement of belief for the WoF section here you will find that it says we believe it is always God's will to heal. So, yes WoF believes God heals in this day and age.

Some of the people here do see healing. I would hazard a guess that all of the people here who do see healing would like to see more. I include myself in that category.

There are "famous" people around who see high success rates in some healings. For example, Heidi Baker is talking about 100% of the deaf Mozambiqians they pray for get healed and 70% of the blind Mozambiqians they pray for get healed. Bill Johnson says they are seeing 70% of the cancer patients that come to Bethel get healed.

I've heard several people with healing ministries say "I don't know" is an acceptable answer to the question why don't all people we pray for get healed. Whilst it may be the reality - I don't know the answer - I'm not particularly comfortable with it.

Here's a thought I've been having. In Acts 5: 12 - 16 we have:

12 The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. 13 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. 14 Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. 15 As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. 16 Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.

Here we have all the apostles performing signs and wonders, and all the sick people that were brought were healed.

What if that were the intended model for the Church? That every one in the church performed signs and wonders and by that means every sick person who is brought to the church gets healed.

It is not down to one mega-star healing ministry to do it all, but we each do a bit and the job gets done.

Randy Clark talks about "Lil ol me". Suggesting that if God can use a guy like me, He can use anyone.

There are so many voices in the church against God healing today, those that do pray for healing are often not viewed in a positive light. I shared a testimony of God healing someone when I prayed for them on a Christian forum (not this one) and was attacked and my status as a Christian was questioned. They were so convinced that God doesn't heal in this day and age. I don't think that helps.

That not everyone gets healed is a puzzle, and a very good question to ask, but let's not forget those that are healed and remember to praise God for those.

I hope my ramblings help a little.

Blessings,

Mike

If Not For Grace said:

Dids

I am seeking information on healing. I have read "where 2 or more are gathered" let them ask what they will and it shall be done. I have read how Jesus healed "all that were brought" to Him. How Jesus raised Lazurus from the dead (in the midst of apparent doubt). I read where the deacons are to be called and the sick person is to be annointed with oil and healed....etc etc. i have been taught God is no respector of persons and that it is His nature to heal..

Yet I see person after person request and receive prayers for healing for this and that and the answer seems to be no. Why? What is it that we are doing wrong or not doing that does not net us the same results as the disciples who went about healing the sick etc. Why are we not lined up at hospitals etc and effecting healing. Is this invalid today? Does the 2 or more gathered promise not extend to healing?

I am not very familiar w/WOF but am told this group believes in healing today the same as it was done then. Is this correct? Can anyone shed some light on this? I have posed this question as have others in the "healing threads" and basicly got "I don't know" as the answer.

One case I will ask in point is the case of the 13 yr old Lane Goodwin who recently died of cancer (some may be familiar) People all over the world prayed for healing and gathered and yet the boy passed away...How does this work or not work? Does God just say no; sometimes?

Click to expand...

for a starter this might help - these are 3 of the many threads about the basics of receiving GOD'S promises - they are short threads but good -

http://www.christianforums.com/t7659365/ - the basics

http://www.christianforums.com/t7660512/#post60632372 - how to deal with curses etc.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7662333/ - GOD'S principles for healing


GOD BLESS you and the others that reply to your very important question -

Thank you-I am Still reading, but I'll be back