Is Catholicism Christianity?

AS for the saint thing I have no problem with acknowledging great men and women of the faith as long as we look to them as a good example and not worship them or anything like that. I disagree with praying to the saints. i know the prayers are for the saints to pray for us but I do not think that they are up there praying for us.

And BTW I am a saint now for Jesus blood has washed me clean of my sin. God changed me from a sinner to a saint who sins. But anyways I have no problem with looking at setting up godly men/women as an example so we can learn from them and strive to be more like them (atleast their good qualities) as we strive to be like the perfect example Christ.

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Where in the text does it say that the goats ever had salvation. 



After another look at the passage I think that you are right it has much to do about the judgement.  However I do not think it says that one must do these actions themselves or one is not saved.  I say this because there is more explicit verses that help me interpret this text.  One is the text in James and the another is when Paul states that salvation is by faith alone and not by works.  (Eph 2:8 & 9) Read the passage again but this time assume my point of view and I think that it will be clear that one can read the passage with the interpretation that the goats never had salvific faith so they did not have the works either. 

My main question always for the faith plus works side is how much owrks do we need to be saved?  How unselfish do we need to be?  Does the Bible ever explicitly state this?  I do not see where unless it is in the passages that we must die to ourselves and our sin.  But who does that 100% in this life.  No one.  Christ was the only one who acted perfectly for any stretch of time. 

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Far as I know, salvation is by Grace. You need do nothing but ask and believe... Faith. I would expect most of your work till that salvation day is pretty much worthless to Him anyway, may even work against you... if you were to let it.. gotta let go of that junk for sure...

After being saved, truly saved there will be fruit, it may not be what you expect... but simply because you know Him, you will tell others, there is fruit every time you plant a good seed... the right way in the right place... you may not even be around to see the tree sprout up. and even someone else may come along later to water... but a good seed will grow, and always remember, it's God's garden, you are only a workman... doing His will..

Be blessed Blackhawk I know I didn't need to tell you this maybe just reminding you...

Originally posted by his-girl
seebs the Word is the guidebook that Jesus left for us.  He tells us that He will always be with us.  We are to study the scriptures in order to know a false teacher from the Truth.  If we blindly follow a certain doctrine, we can easily be mislead....

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Honey I got some really shocking news for you, where do you think you got your bible from?

It was canonized by the Catholic Church. I don't care what you think of Catholics and our 'blind' doctrine, you are a hypocrite because you can put us down all you want but you'll turn right back around and quote from OUR bible.

Now try to disprove me wrong and see how far you will get. Catholics canonized the bible and you accept that, YOUR faith came from us, we taught YOU who Jesus is. WE determined the trinity and defined the doctrine. If you get to heaven it will be on the coat tails of the CATHOLIC Church.

We must have done something right. Even your reformers were smart enough to know this and when you refute such obvious historical facts that can be proven and backed up I am sure the reformers are turning in embarrassment at your ignorance. Yeah their proud that all of y’all sola scripturas’ broke away and made up your own stuff. 30,000 plus and going strong claiming 'Jesus is enough.' Everyday a new Christian denomination is formed claiming to have the truth. The gates of hell are really not prevailing with you guys, huh? All 30,000 of you..

Originally posted by Blackhawk

Also Seebs said that we do not need the Bible to be saved we only need Christ. (or somethig like that)  The problem I have with thsi statement is that we would not know how to be saved without the Bible.  The Bible is God's love letter to us and the primary way that the Holy Spirit reveals to us the good news and God Himself.

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The early Christians believed because other people told them, not because of the Bible. The Bible helps, and it's a great record, but it's not God, and millions of people have come to know and love God without ever seeing a Bible.

I agree that the Bible is the best available source of information about God - but I don't think it's the only source, and I am not yet convinced that it's an inerrant source.

Originally posted by Blackhawk
...but I do not think that they are up there praying for us.

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Me neither bro.

Originally posted by Blackhawk

And BTW I am a saint now for Jesus blood has washed me clean of my sin. God changed me from a sinner to a saint who sins. But anyways I have no problem with looking at setting up godly men/women as an example so we can learn from them and strive to be more like them (atleast their good qualities) as we strive to be like the perfect example Christ.

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Thats right bro.

Give God the Glory.

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Far as I know, salvation is by Grace. You need do nothing but ask and believe... Faith. I would expect most of your work till that salvation day is pretty much worthless to Him anyway, may even work against you... if you were to let it.. gotta let go of that junk for sure...

After being saved, truly saved there will be fruit, it may not be what younexpect... but simply because you know Him, you will tell others, there is friut every time you plant a good seed... the right way in the right place... you may not even be around to see the tree sprout up. and even someone else may come along later to water... bjut a good seed will grow, and always remember, it's God's garden, you are only a workman... doing His will..

Be blessed Blackhawk I know I didn't need to tell you this maybe just reminding you...

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I agree.  I have a question though did I seem to say anything contrary to what you said?  I was trying to say that one is saved through faith alone by God's grace as stated by Paul.  I then stated that James does not contradict Paul but instead furthers the discussion of how one acts after one is saved.  That one will have the fruit and the works after salvation because they are a "new creation."  That after salvation the HS works in us to "Renew our minds", to convict us of our sin, to tell us His will give us the power to do it and to show us who God the Father and Son is. 

Now I would say that one although one does not have to do anything to keep one's salvation that the affect of their slavation will cause them to do works.  If one lives for a good period of time and has no fruit or works then I would doubt their salvation. (although only God knows for sure)  I do not think that you disagree.

Originally posted by his-girl
 L4J, Terry and I were fellowshipping....Anabele, KC and Stormy come in here and start bashing.  And Stormy threatened me. 

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Fellowshipping at the expense of Catholics?

Yes I agree that God is not dad he is living in you. You are an awesome example of what it is to have God living in someone.

Originally posted by chelcb
 

Honey I got some really shocking news for you, where do you think you got your bible from?

It was canonized by the Catholic Church. I don't care what you think of Catholics and our 'blind' doctrine, you are a hypocrite because you can put us down all you want but you'll turn right back around and quote from OUR bible.

Now try to disprove me wrong and see how far you will get. Catholics canonized the bible and you accept that, YOUR faith came from us, we taught YOU who Jesus is. WE determined the trinity and defined the doctrine. If you get to heaven it will be on the coat tails of the CATHOLIC Church.

We must have done something right. Even your reformers were smart enough to know this and when you refute such obvious historical facts that can be proven and backed up I am sure the reformers are turning in embarrassment at your ignorance. Yeah their proud that all of y’all sola scripturas’ broke away and made up your own stuff. 30,000 plus and going strong claiming 'Jesus is enough.' Everyday a new Christian denomination is formed claiming to have the truth. The gates of hell are really not prevailing with you guys, huh? All 30,000 of you..

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Honey, I got some really really shocking news for you... where do you think the Catholics got the bible from? they got it from the Jews honey pie.

Then they manipulated it with their doctrine.

Which you are welcome to stand on.

consider me the girl who stands on the loaf however.

Of the bread of life.

I do not feel love coming from you Chelsi.

Your kidding right?

I am going back and reading all the past posts and...your kidding right? Do you think you have been particulary loving?

Originally posted by chelcb
 

Honey I got some really shocking news for you, where do you think you got your bible from?

It was canonized by the Catholic Church.

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I agree but disagree.  The church was inspired to canonize the gospel however the authority of scripture was not given to it by the Catholic church or any church.  It was given by God.  The Cahtolic church was just inspired to select the books that already had the authority of scripture.  So it is not the Catholics Bible it is God's.  Also the Reformation did not start the schism in the church.  There were already two churches before the Reformation had occurred.  And these churches hated each other and said that hteir way was the only true way.  One who was Orthodox could turn your argument around against you and say that you got those thigs from them because they are the true church. 

 

 

Originally posted by Blackhawk
I agree.  I have a question though did I seem to say anything contrary to what you said?  I was trying to say that one is saved through faith alone by God's grace as stated by Paul.  I then stated that James does not contradict Paul but instead furthers the discussion of how one acts after one is saved.  That one will have the fruit and the works after salvation because they are a "new creation."  That after salvation the HS works in us to "Renew our minds", to convict us of our sin, to tell us His will give us the power to do it and to show us who God the Father and Son is. 

Now I would say that one although one does not have to do anything to keep one's salvation that the affect of their salvation will cause them to do works.  If one lives for a good period of time and has no fruit or works then I would doubt their salvation. (although only God knows for sure)  I do not think that you disagree.

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Yep and I am just upholding you bro, you are completely right, there are some who say they are saved but have no evidence of it... most definitely you should have real REAL evidence of it... but I am not going to assume what that would be for any singular person,,, for a mom it may just be the raising up of her kids the right way... for a beggar it may be the other beggars he saves... but booth those thngs most people would never notice... but God knows. And the Holy Spirit lets You know, that He IS there with you.

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Honey, I got some really really shocking news for you... where do you think the Catholics got the bible from? they got it from the Jews honey pie.

Then they manipulated it with their doctrine.

Which you are welcome to stand on.

consider me the girl who stands on the loaf however.

Of the bread of life.

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The Jews wrote the New Testament?

Or is that the Catholic doctrine that you speak of that manipulated the Jewish Bible?

Originally posted by seebs
The early Christians believed because other people told them, not because of the Bible. The Bible helps, and it's a great record, but it's not God, and millions of people have come to know and love God without ever seeing a Bible.

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Yes for a brief time there were no scriptures besides the Ot of course but this time wa very brief.  Peter in the 2nd Peter even claims that Paul's writings were scripture. It is also a known fact that they had many letters that the patriarchs would send to certain churches.  these letters would get passed around to other churches so they could learn from them also.   

I agree that the Bible is the best available source of information about God - but I don't think it's the only source, and I am not yet convinced that it's an inerrant source. [/B]

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I did not say it was the only source however it is the best source and the main one the HS uses. 

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Honey, I got some really really shocking news for you... where do you think the Catholics got the bible from? they got it from the Jews honey pie.

Then they manipulated it with their doctrine.

Which you are welcome to stand on.

consider me the girl who stands on the loaf however.

Of the bread of life.

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I'm with stormy...the Jews wrote the NT??? Want to tell me how they pulled that off?

Originally posted by Stormy
The Jews wrote the New Testament?

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Yep, the first few jews that were saved wrote the new testament, thought everyone knew that... and they held it up with the word of God which was written in the Old Testament, which they knew quite well,,, because they were jews.

Originally posted by chelcb
 

Honey I got some really shocking news for you, where do you think you got your bible from?

It was canonized by the Catholic Church. I don't care what you think of Catholics and our 'blind' doctrine, you are a hypocrite because you can put us down all you want but you'll turn right back around and quote from OUR bible.

Now try to disprove me wrong and see how far you will get. Catholics canonized the bible and you accept that, YOUR faith came from us, we taught YOU who Jesus is. WE determined the trinity and defined the doctrine. If you get to heaven it will be on the coat tails of the CATHOLIC Church.

We must have done something right. Even your reformers were smart enough to know this and when you refute such obvious historical facts that can be proven and backed up I am sure the reformers are turning in embarrassment at your ignorance. Yeah their proud that all of y’all sola scripturas’ broke away and made up your own stuff. 30,000 plus and going strong claiming 'Jesus is enough.' Everyday a new Christian denomination is formed claiming to have the truth. The gates of hell are really not prevailing with you guys, huh? All 30,000 of you..

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Knock of the Honey bull .....k.  You can believe the lies you were taught, but I for one do not buy this ****.  I belive in the apostles, not the ECF's.  And why are you so hostile, that you have to try and put down what I believe.  If you really want to go blow for blow then let's get a mod to let us go for it.  I don't have a problem taking you on.

Originally posted by Blackhawk

Yes for a brief time there were no scriptures besides the Ot of course but this time wa very brief.  Peter in the 2nd Peter even claims that Paul's writings were scripture. It is also a known fact that they had many letters that the patriarchs would send to certain churches.  these letters would get passed around to other churches so they could learn from them also.

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He also claims that Paul's writings are nigh-impenetrable, and that people should be wary of misunderstanding them.

My personal suspicion is that the various epistles contain both divinely inspired information and personal opinion, and that the same is true of many other sources... Making it a bit hard to be sure. There's substantial evidence that Matthew post-dates the other gospels, and was accumulated from other sources.

I did not say it was the only source however it is the best source and the main one the HS uses. 

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I tend to agree with this. However, once we admit that other sources could exist, one of the core attacks on the Catholic faith - the idea that there could be information not specifically stated in the Bible, which is nonetheless part of God's truth - becomes unsupportable. Which I'm sure doesn't bother you at all.

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Honey, I got some really really shocking news for you... where do you think the Catholics got the bible from? they got it from the Jews honey pie.

Then they manipulated it with their doctrine.

Which you are welcome to stand on.

consider me the girl who stands on the loaf however.

Of the bread of life.

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Although there were many jewish authors of the Bible there were also gentile ones.  Also the first members of the church were jewish. 

Also although I do not agree with all of the RCC's theology I think to say that "they manipulated it with their doctrine" is harsh. I do believe that the RCC is wrong about some things I think that they are a Christian church and got most thigns right.  I am a baptist because I think Bapstists have very correct doctrine but I am sure we are wrong about some things.  So we all have manipulated the Bible in some ways and should not be throwing rocks in glass houses.  

Originally posted by chelcb
 

Fellowshipping at the expense of Catholics?

Yes I agree that God is not dad he is living in you. You are an awesome example of what it is to have God living in someone.

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You have some serious issues, Your priest is going to get an ear full this sunday.

Originally posted by his-girl
Knock of the Honey bull .....k.  You can believe the lies you were taught, but I for one do not buy this ****.  I belive in the apostles, not the ECF's.  And why are you so hostile, that you have to try and put down what I believe.  If you really want to go blow for blow then let's get a mod to let us go for it.  I don't have a problem taking you on.

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Tell me again... What spirit is that which you serve?