demons?

spitoutthekoolaid said:

Okay … I tried to read all posts in this thread, more or less in one sitting.

Appreciating the points of view concerning origins, and drawing from various canonical and non-canonical references (depending on what you consider canonical and non-canonical of course) to try and understand *what* these spirits are and are not, is one thing. Bringing this into the practical realm of everyday experience, is another.

Yahu has mentioned dealing with a high priestess, and the conflicts that arose from that, as well discerning spiritually the entities at work therein. This is what I would call an example of "practical", relevant to the here and now.

Would anyone be willing to share what they would consider great examples of actually dealing with an unclean spirit, a principality, a watcher, an angel, a seraph, etc and so forth ? I'm not looking for reference based definitions, I'm talking about EXPERIENCE based definitions. For example, "I saw a large animal that looked like a dog, eating another animal that it had just killed. After it was done, it began to howl a loud and sad song … I think it was a wolf, based on what I saw and experienced and what I know of wolves …." That would be an example of telling about your experience, and how you identified and discerned it was a "wolf" based on what you saw and experienced, letting the experience "speak for itself" so to speak.

Perhaps someone has met a "Prince of ______" and can give an account ? Perhaps someone has seen something "fall from heaven like lightening" and can give an account. Perhaps you can give an example of how a Nephilim spirit manifests in a person, or on the earth, as opposed to rapha, etc and so forth. I realize I'm using simplistic English translated terms for the most part, and in no way am I trying to define other terms .. but feel free to use whatever term or definition you think applies, if you'd like to share. Practical examples are really what I'm going after … not just, "God showed me in a vision, and that's it." I mean … perhaps God showed you in a vision, but then it manifested in reality in a specific way. A person came walking through your wall and then vanished after eating with you, for example. Lightbulbs began exploding all around. You bled from the nose. Your neighbor died. You saw apparitions with your physical eyes, or something incredibly strange connected to it. Etc and so forth.

Thanks in advance ...

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Never seen a spirit myself. I don't have the visual form of discernment of spirits. I have in the past had prophetic visions that contained representatives of those spirits.

I had a vision that represented the inner nature of two of the most evil women I have ever known. Yes, both of them where witches and one the high priestess of Ashtoreth. The other was a much lesser priestess of Isis but she was outwardly more nasty.

In the visions I had of them the priestess of Isis had things like scorpions and centipedes that represented the demons operating through her while the high priestess of Ashtoreth had a large viper in her vision. Ellen, the high priestess of Ashtoreth had the much greater demon in her but it was well hidden. She wasn't as outwardly nasty but worked from the shadows so to speak through others.

Now I never met their goddess but Ellen was capable of summoning their goddess. That was how she was able to take control of and merge several covens from different backgrounds. I heard about those appearances to the coven. That coven was mainly made up of military personal so they had differring backgrounds in witchcraft. One group was worshipers of Diana. There was the priestess of Isis and Ellen the high priestess of Ashtoreth as well as those of wiccan background. Ellen merge them all together under her authority by summoning her goddess. She was able to appear to them in many forms. Ashtoreth, Diana and Isis were just different names of the same individual from different societies. The leader of the Diana faction refused to believe until the spirit appeared to her in the multi-breasted form of Diana.

So as I understand it, the spirits can alter their visual appearance or at least the high level ones can. It is by their nature that you have to identify them.

Generally demons are 'spirits of [some attribute]' just as the pagan gods were 'lord of [some attribute]' like Baal-gad, 'lord of furtune'. Generally demonology concentrates on the attribute they specialize in.

Now some spirits are controling spirits over a range of attributes. An example of this is a 'Jezebel spirit'. It specialized in attributes and behavior of evil women like gossip, slander, false witness, witchcraft, rebellion, control, manipulation, seduction, whoredoms, ...

Now I have had many spirits sent against me via witchcraft. For example, I have been the target of love spells.

Simon_Templar said:

I agree that satan is a title in the council, or a role. However i tend to think that there has only ever been one who held that role. I think it might be possible that the role didn't exist until he essentially took it up, but thats speculation of course.

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Well there are several clues that the position of 'satan' has changed. I see three different individuals that have held that position. An example is:

Isa 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

This is out of the same passage about 'O, Lucifer'. It is still talking about the fall of the 'shameful king'. Note the reference to the 'rod that is broken' that links back to the beginning of the passage.

I see the "serpent's root" as a reference to the Watchers of Gen 6. This would also include the serpent in the garden. I see them as self-appointed 'satans'. The 'cockatrice' was the 'dragon of the sky'. I believe he was the leader of the four angels that are bound at the Euphrates. If you look up the word 'fruit' it is a reference to a child/offspring. The 'fiery flying serpent' is the child/offspring of the cockatrice. That 'fiery flying serpent' is actually the word 'sereph', a 'fiery angel' but it is the child of another so isn't translated as an angel. That is HaSatan of our time. I see the first group of 'satans' as the Watchers. The cockatrice also followed them into error. His child is now HaSatan. So the first 'satans' were the Watchers until the flood. The cockatrice was 'Satan' until the Tower of Babel with the current HaSatan being in place since that time. It was at Babel, that Satan fell like lightning.

That 'satan' was Shachar, ie 'the morning' who was present when Yah laid the foundations of the earth and led the angels in song. It was that angel appointed by Yah to shake the wicked from the skirts of the earth, ie be the prosecutor of the wicked.

Job 38:
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
...
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it(he) might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

So, 'the morning' was assigned by Yah to be Satan while Lucifer/Heylel is 'ben Shachar' or 'son/child/offspring of Shachar' just as the fiery flying serpent is child of the cockatrice. We know the cockatrice had children.

Isa 59:5 They hatch cockatrice’ eggs, and weave the spider’s web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.

Here is where the offspring of a cockatrice is referenced as a viper that is equated with an angelic being that is born in Isa 14 and translated as 'fiery serpent'.

The primary passage used to tie HaSatan to the serpent in the garden is Eze 28 and due to a misunderstanding of a reference in that passage. It is assumed that the 'king of Tyrus' is Lucifer and it references Eden. Now Eden means 'pleasure' in Hebrew so it could just be a reference to him 'walking in pleasure' which is certainly valid of the enemy. It can also be a reference to his ability to walk in the heavenly realm where the current heavenly Eden resides with the tree of life. We know HaSatan has the ability to walk in the heavenly realm to operate as 'The Accuser'. It also references the 'stones of fire' and may be a reference to hell as well so he walks in both realms which is confirmed in other scriptures.

Now many take HaSatan as the former worship leader in Heaven. I see that position as the position of his father. He lead the 'stars' in song at the laying of the foundation of the earth and is directly equated with the 'ben Elohyim'. Now this figure is also an major part of the ancient paganism. He was equated as a god of lightning and thunder. He was Hadad, the thunderer, to the Syrians. He was Zeus to the Greeks. He brought about the divine judgement on the wicked but fell into error himself. He was the Satan that fell as 'lightning'. That fall was at Babel because of his error of having children that caused the problems that led to Babel.

It is the teachings that there was some great rebellion in Yah's heaven with 1/3 of the angels falling before the fall of man that leads to this false interpretation. That concept comes out of the teachings of Augustine and works like Paradise Lost but doesn't line up with actual scripture.

The ancient paganism was the worship of angelic beings that played an active role with man and their offspring.

Simon_Templar said:

I think our main disagreement here would be that i believe El elyon is a reference to God and that he divided the nations to the number of the divine council. I believe he essentially gave the gentile nations over to the evil council members because of their rebellion at babel, and then chose Abraham out to be his portion, where as the rest of the nations were given to e other "gods".

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El Elyon MAY be a reference to Yah. As I understand it, it was by Yah's command to Noah to scatter his offspring and divide up the land among the differing male offspring. So who is it a reference towards, Yah or Noah as His agent with authority over mankind on earth? It was in rebellion against Noah and that separated that happened at Babel. They gathered together instead of dispersing to their allotted land grants.

So the national 'ELs' were appointed by Yah through Noah. They are specifically tied to those nations as their progentor. Does that make them a part of the divine counsel? Are they the 'elohyim' that 'die as men' and fall? Do they operate as part of the 'divine counsel' that falls under the 'god of this world'?

Now the 70 nations under Noah KNEW all about Yah and His judgement through Noah yet they still fell into error. We know that Yah operates through spiritual forces like the 'lying spirits in the mouth of Ahab's prophets'. It is 'evil spirits' that we equate as demons. What about good spirits that are following the ways and teachings of Yah? What about spirits that are a mixture of good and error?

An example of that mixture of good and error are the '7 Stars' of Revelation 1-3. They are influencing the churches but each has an error that is rebuked.

Yahu said:

Never seen a spirit myself. I don't have the visual form of discernment of spirits. I have in the past had prophetic visions that contained representatives of those spirits.

I had a vision that represented the inner nature of two of the most evil women I have ever known. Yes, both of them where witches and one the high priestess of Ashtoreth. The other was a much lesser priestess of Isis but she was outwardly more nasty.

In the visions I had of them the priestess of Isis had things like scorpions and centipedes that represented the demons operating through her while the high priestess of Ashtoreth had a large viper in her vision. Ellen, the high priestess of Ashtoreth had the much greater demon in her but it was well hidden. She wasn't as outwardly nasty but worked from the shadows so to speak through others.

Now I never met their goddess but Ellen was capable of summoning their goddess. That was how she was able to take control of and merge several covens from different backgrounds. I heard about those appearances to the coven. That coven was mainly made up of military personal so they had differring backgrounds in witchcraft. One group was worshipers of Diana. There was the priestess of Isis and Ellen the high priestess of Ashtoreth as well as those of wiccan background. Ellen merge them all together under her authority by summoning her goddess. She was able to appear to them in many forms. Ashtoreth, Diana and Isis were just different names of the same individual from different societies. The leader of the Diana faction refused to believe until the spirit appeared to her in the multi-breasted form of Diana.

So as I understand it, the spirits can alter their visual appearance or at least the high level ones can. It is by their nature that you have to identify them.

Generally demons are 'spirits of [some attribute]' just as the pagan gods were 'lord of [some attribute]' like Baal-gad, 'lord of furtune'. Generally demonology concentrates on the attribute they specialize in.

Now some spirits are controling spirits over a range of attributes. An example of this is a 'Jezebel spirit'. It specialized in attributes and behavior of evil women like gossip, slander, false witness, witchcraft, rebellion, control, manipulation, seduction, whoredoms, ...

Now I have had many spirits sent against me via witchcraft. For example, I have been the target of love spells.

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And by the way, thanks for your response. I was waiting to respond in case others wanted to join in with their accounts, but since no one did, I let it die off ...

Will re-post this from another thread, since it kind of goes here:

spitoutthekoolaid said:

I'm torn as to whether or not some, if not all of the spiritual beings (humans aside for the sake of this point), were ever flesh *first* in the way they experienced existence. In other words, the bnai elohim for example .... spirit first, or flesh first upon their creation ? Princes, seraphim, cherubim, Watchers, etc ... was there ever a time they went from flesh, to spirit, and back to flesh as their main method of "coming into existence" ? I'm also not talking about Nephilim and such. I'm talking about their "parents" ...

And I'm also not talking about God having them as spirit before he formed them, for example. I'm talking about when they first realized they were in "existence", in the same way that humans might ...

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spitoutthekoolaid said:

I'm torn as to whether or not some, if not all of the spiritual beings (humans aside for the sake of this point), were ever flesh *first* in the way they experienced existence. In other words, the bnai elohim for example .... spirit first, or flesh first upon their creation ? Princes, seraphim, cherubim, Watchers, etc ... was there ever a time they went from flesh, to spirit, and back to flesh as their main method of "coming into existence" ? I'm also not talking about Nephilim and such. I'm talking about their "parents" ...

And I'm also not talking about God having them as spirit before he formed them, for example. I'm talking about when they first realized they were in "existence", in the same way that humans might ...

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I'm not sure what you mean. Flesh has a spirit that gives them life. There is no life without it IMO. IMO the only spirits without flesh would be the Father who is Spirit, the Holy Spirit and the disembodied dead that have lost their physical body and have not been resurrected with a glorified eternal body or physical mortal body.

Will some not be given a resurrected eternal body and die a second physical death?
Can an 'angel' lose its immortal body?
Are there classes of 'angels' that were created fully formed like Adam?
Are there classes of 'angels' that were born in heaven?
The angels don't marry but are there actual children of Yeshua pre or post his own birth on earth via angelic consorts, ie 'ben Elohyim'?

We also have to define exactly what an angel is. Is a being that is created (or born) in the heavenly realm an angel, ie 'waters above'? What about those born of both angelic parents but born on earth? What if they repent of the sins of their parents and don't follow them into error? Can they be redeemed?

Since 'angel' means messenger, are there other spiritual beings that operates as 'messengers' that were born but on earth as human/nephilim that now operate as spiritual messengers? Who do those 'messengers' serve? Who appointed them as such?

Are there spirits born on earth that serve the will of Yah but do so from Sheol? Pre-cross verses post-cross? Did all righteous spirits leave Sheol with Yeshua or could they opt to stay and do Yah's will on earth until the appointed time of judgement/resurrection?

Can 'evil spirits' be ghosts of evil individuals that serve the enemy and are let out of prison for a period of time? So is it there actions that make them evil?

What are the rules and constraints on the spiritual realms? Are some imposed by Yah while others imposed by the enemy over spirits in their realms?

Those are the type of questions I face.

Yahu said:

I'm not sure what you mean. Flesh has a spirit that gives them life. There is no life without it IMO. IMO the only spirits without flesh would be the Father who is Spirit, the Holy Spirit and the disembodied dead that have lost their physical body and have not been resurrected with a glorified eternal body or physical mortal body.

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Yes I would basically agree with this I think … it is spirit that makes flesh "alive". Without it, it's just a piece of meat. A "husk" without corn, so to speak, and inanimate at that.

What I'm wondering, and perhaps this is better detailed: is whether or not any being we might call an "angel" was ever flesh FIRST.

For example, 1 Corinthians 15 sort of lays out what I call the "metamorphic human" design. And it talks about humans as though they are plants … going from seed, to death, to life. Perishable, to imperishable. Natural, to spiritual. I typically envision a butterfly analogously … egg (seed), larva (weakness), chrysalis (death), butterfly (spiritual body).

However Corinthians also points out that the natural came first, then the spiritual, using the first man Adam as reference.

What I wonder is if this was true also with any of the beings we call "angels" …. if they were first natural, THEN spiritual. I tend to think that most of them were first spiritual, THEN natural as they saw fit, being able to "go back and forth" perhaps, so long as they didn't fall and give themselves over to the flesh to where they couldn't "convert back to pure spirit", so to speak.

Does that make sense ?

I might be drawing on Enoch in the back of my mind without realizing it. Where it says, "And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish. But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling."

From this I might assume that these Watchers were not originally flesh, but were originally spirit which was able to inhabit flesh as a choice.

Furthermore, in Hebrews it's pointed out that "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire," and the author says that angels are ministering spirits.

In other words, I was wanting to understand the "metamorphic state" of the various other spiritual entities . I hate to use the word "evolution", so I won't lol, but I was essentially looking at the difference between how humans, and other "heavenly beings" are created, so to speak, and how they change over time per their classification, if it even can be looked at that way.

Now the rest of your questions are awesome lol …

Will some not be given a resurrected eternal body and die a second physical death?

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If I understand what I read in Revelations 20, they will.

Can an 'angel' lose its immortal body?

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I don't know. I think that might be what the lake of fire is for … a never ending "destruction" to contain something that is immortal.

And here is a thought: we design machines and robots and then "power them". These machines/robots don't need food to metabolize, they just need a power source. But of course they decay over time, change shape due to environmental factors, etc and so forth. Perhaps angelic "bodies" are similar, if they bodies are carbon based, or organic in nature. Perhaps they can eat, for example, but don't NEED to eat. And so over time these bodies change, decay, but don't get destroyed. Which then begs the question ... can a fallen spirit be "formed" into something else ? Like, say, a "spiritual rock" ? Condensed, crushed into a singularity ? "Trapped" in an organic or carbon based type of thing, like, a "cursed object" ? Accessed, bound, or loosed, via some type of external energy ? It seems rather obvious that living beings, like animals and people can be conduits for spirit ... but what about a telephone line ? The internet ? A supercollider ? A nuclear weapon ? A virus ? Food ?

Are there classes of 'angels' that were created fully formed like Adam?

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This is the kind of question I was getting at.

Are there classes of 'angels' that were born in heaven?

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Were any born on *earth* ? (hybrid Nephilim aside)

The angels don't marry but are there actual children of Yeshua pre or post his own birth on earth via angelic consorts, ie 'ben Elohyim'?

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This I would highly doubt, concerning Yeshua. And it's not that I'm "against the idea" even … it's just I see time and again people referred to as his siblings, or even his father/mother/etc …. and of course there is His Bride. But I don't see "children of Yeshua" even mentioned symbolically. If there were, would he not have them with His Bride ? Hmm …

Concerning whether or not there are still active ben Elohyim consorting with humans still … this might be spiritually the case. Consider the "believer", who is born again. Are they not called children of God, and also sons of God ? (Galatians, John, etc) Is this *similar* ? So there is a person, walking around with the Spirit of Christ, born anew, recreated spiritually, right ? They just happen to be in the fleshly vessel. And when they procreate with another … what is the result in their OWN offspring ? In other words, two "children of God", having a baby ?

Is that baby born a "child of God" with the renewed spirit already there ? Malachi 2:15 "Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth." … and 1 Corinthians 7:14, where it talks about unclean verses holy children, in the case of one of the parents being an unbeliever. The unbelieving spouse is sanctified, and the child is holy, because of the believing partner. Why ? Is it because of the way spiritual beings procreate … is the child "hybrid" ?

Furthermore, Yeshua was born of the Holy Spirit, and a woman … but what about Isaac ? Was he a "hybrid" of some kind as well ?

Now whether or not evil ben Elohim can still procreate, as in the days of old, I'm torn. The original Watchers who sinned, are in chains waiting judgement, yes ? However whether or not angels can still "fall", I don't know. Revelations shows things coming up out of the Abyss, that once were, now are not, yet will come … the Watchers of old ? And can the disembodied spirits of the hybrid offspring procreate with humans as their "puppet" ? I would be inclined to think "no" … because of the push in science to create clones, living organisms, and "life" … part of that would be the push to create the "perfect" body for a disembodied angel-human hybrid to inhabit, with no human spirit or Holy Spirit to "get in the way". A vessel for the seed of satan that isn't in danger of turning to the Lord, perhaps.

We also have to define exactly what an angel is. Is a being that is created (or born) in the heavenly realm an angel, ie 'waters above'? What about those born of both angelic parents but born on earth? What if they repent of the sins of their parents and don't follow them into error? Can they be redeemed?

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This is a question I've had as well. In essence, can a Nephilim type of individual repent and be saved ? I've wondered if homosexuality and those "born homosexual" are precisely this: the result of "spiritual angel seed" somehow. Seeing as how the unfallen "angels" are neither male nor female, why wouldn't their offspring have similar traits and be attracted to both genders ? And even if homosexuals are not the result of "direct mating" … perhaps it is inherited genetically in the flesh from ancient times ? So if this were to be the case, can a homosexual be "saved" in the spirit, but condemned in the flesh like the rest of us ? And forgetting the sexuality preference as a "sign" … what about the Nephilim as a whole ? I had a theory, years ago when I first started studying these things … that caucasians were the result of such unions. I took this idea from the pseudapigraphal Noah accounts, where it describes Noah's birth and what he looked like upon birth. He was white as snow and red as a blooming rose, his hair was white, etc. His father Lamech thought he had a child like the children of angels, and was afraid of him.

Now I don't know if it was just the albinistic traits (white hair), or the white skin on the baby … but I wondered if this was partially the "origin" of the caucasians: they were remnant Nephilim, genetically, which might also account for their being pushed to prominence amongst the races of the earth, having been used by the fallen because they are easier to influence spiritually to seek earthly power, earthly domain and dominance, etc and so forth. They are even called the "Great White Satan" at times, especially the US. It made me wonder if "white people" could be saved lol.

But I think it may be a moot issue, that very theory … in the sense that Jesus died for the Gentiles, and the Jews, etc. In other words, perhaps even if there ARE some races on earth, or people on earth, who still are the result of such spiritual unions, or carry those links genetically … the "Other Nations" can participate in salvation anyway. No longer Jew, or Greek, or male, or female. What was unclean, has been made clean. What Peter could not eat at one time, he can now eat.

Since 'angel' means messenger, are there other spiritual beings that operates as 'messengers' that were born but on earth as human/nephilim that now operate as spiritual messengers? Who do those 'messengers' serve? Who appointed them as such?

Are there spirits born on earth that serve the will of Yah but do so from Sheol? Pre-cross verses post-cross? Did all righteous spirits leave Sheol with Yeshua or could they opt to stay and do Yah's will on earth until the appointed time of judgement/resurrection?

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Excellent questions. I'm immediately reminded of Samuel being summoned. I'm also reminded of the "spirit of Elijah" that could be passed to Elisha, and perhaps John the Baptist.

Can 'evil spirits' be ghosts of evil individuals that serve the enemy and are let out of prison for a period of time? So is it there actions that make them evil?

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I don't know if this is true for dead humans, whether they die in the Lord or not. In other words, the demons, unclean spirits, evil spirits, familiar spirits, etc … I don't know if "pure human" ranks amongst them.

I know many people who claim to have spoken with dead ancestors, and of course those who say they speak with Paul, John, etc, whilst in the Spirit. I have not experienced anything like that personally … so I have no point of reference other than second hand testimonies.

What are the rules and constraints on the spiritual realms? Are some imposed by Yah while others imposed by the enemy over spirits in their realms?

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Hmm ….

This is like asking what are the "physics of the spiritual realms"

Those are the type of questions I face.

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As do many of us …

From my own experiences, they often "speak for themselves". I was born into certain situations, I won't go into detail here … but I've been dealing with certain types of things from birth, and childhood, from my family and environment. I know many have, so I'm not unique in that sense. And I wasn't raised in a household that practiced any "religion", so I had no names or labels to place on things, and I learned understanding through experience, not study. Like being dropped in a cage with animals. I learned to recognize things by fruit first. Predator, prey dynamics if you will. Through the years, once I began to study scriptures and other texts, I've seen much of these things finally labeled for me, in a lot of ways … but some terms and such I still hold loosely, as they seem incomplete or as though I don't fully understand the term.

It would be like being attacked by a lion, but saying I was attacked by a "cat". What kind of cat ? Domestic, feral, wild ? Big, small ? The product of human breeding or a "natural" cat like a lion, tiger, leopard, etc ? This is how I view the term "angel". It's like saying "cat". However, I can discern certain types of spirit, based on *fruit* (like, "the claw marks were small, it was in East Africa where the attack happened, it was masculine in gender and at night, etc"), sometimes getting a name for the spirit (like Legion), and of course sometimes seeing a physical manifestation of some kind. But I still am not sure what is the "species" to call things, so to speak. I can even trace the influence and effect of some of these things over a person's life and show them how it's influenced them from "day one" and beyond perhaps, at times, but still … I cannot fully say, "this is specifically a ______". On occasion, I have revelation about certain spirits, but don't necessarily get specific-specifics …

Long post ...

spitoutthekoolaid said:

I might be drawing on Enoch in the back of my mind without realizing it. Where it says, "And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish. But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling."

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Ok, now I see what you mean. As I see it they already had immortal physical and spiritual bodies. Now they already had the immortal LIFE. They were part of the Spiritual realm of the Father. Now they were not appointed wives in Heaven. That does not imply they were not capable of having a physical relationship while in Heaven but it was not needed to do so. Can you imagine immortal beings that give birth to immortal beings? How fast would they multiply when there is no death.

Now, they may be able to change their physical form. I believe they took on a form that allowed them to cross with women as well as with animals. The animal reference is out of the 'book of Giants'. Only fragments have been found and it is believed to be another part of Enoch. It clearly shows that each angel also crossed with many animals to create monsters and new species.

Now nowhere does it imply that angels are sexless, ie not male or female. All Hebrew words are either masculine or feminine. There is no neuter like in Greek. There is also a scriptural reference to 'winged women' but granted that may be a Nephilim reference.

Now your point about Noah is easy to counter. Noah was 'pure in his generations'. I believe that means he was of pure human descent. That is one reason he is chosen to repopulate the earth to totally wipe out the Nephilim lines.

If the messiah came through a Nephilim line, it would prove that the angels that crossed with women were require to bring about salvation. That could be justification for their actions.

Now the parable of the wheat and tares is another clue. The 'son of man', who I believe is a reference to Noah in this case, cast his seed into the field, his wife, to plant the wheat. He was to repopulate the earth with his seed. The post flood corruption had to come into the field after he planted his seed to plant the tares. In this case, Yah didn't command a total destruction of all tares but allowed them to grow with the wheat until the final harvest. The tares didn't come from the original planting but after the fact, planted in the same field. Now Genesis calls Noah, 'ish Adamah', ie 'husband to the land' right after he is command to raise up his seed in the earth.

Now part of the problem I see is the Greek philosophy on what it means to be 'spiritual'. They take that to mean without any physical form. Many see Heaven as a purely 'spiritual realm' without any physical form. They even see it as outside of time.

I disagree. It is a physical place. It is the Father that is purely spiritual and outside of time. Yeshua is the physical manifestation of the Father. The godhead is the body (Yeshua), soul (Father) and Spirit just as man is made in His image in 3 parts but one being.

It is easy to prove that there is physical time in Heaven. Music and speech requires vibrations in time. There is no sound without the passage of time. There is no light without passage of time because light is waves of particles. Time has to be part of creation.

I see heaven as a physical place populated with physical beings. They are just immortal beings. Granted there are also spiritual beings that have not yet been granted their glorified immortal bodies.

spitoutthekoolaid said:

If I understand what I read in Revelations 20, they will.

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Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

What about those 'outside the gates' that are denied access to the 'tree of life'? What about those that fail to be an overcomer of the 1st church in Rev 2? They are also denied access to the tree. Those that fail to over come the 2nd error in Rev 2 may suffer the 'second death'.

Do these individuals get resurrected but not meet the requirements to live an immortal 2nd life?

spitoutthekoolaid said:

Excellent questions. I'm immediately reminded of Samuel being summoned. I'm also reminded of the "spirit of Elijah" that could be passed to Elisha, and perhaps John the Baptist.

I don't know if this is true for dead humans, whether they die in the Lord or not. In other words, the demons, unclean spirits, evil spirits, familiar spirits, etc … I don't know if "pure human" ranks amongst them.

I know many people who claim to have spoken with dead ancestors, and of course those who say they speak with Paul, John, etc, whilst in the Spirit. I have not experienced anything like that personally … so I have no point of reference other than second hand testimonies.

Hmm ….

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Reposted from Job thread:

********************************

Job 26:4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?
5 Dead things (ghosts) are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.
6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction (Abbaddon) hath no covering (body?).


Here Job is accusing his friend of being under the influence of a demonic spirit and then states that 'dead things', ie 'shades of the dead'/'ghosts' are from waters (people) and inhabit other waters. He is accusing his friend of being inhabited by an ancestral spirit of the dead and speaking falsehood. Then Job goes on to speak of Hell and 'the destroyer', ie Abaddon. (Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.)

His friend Bildad also tells Job earlier to seek guidance from his ancestral spirits or 'familiar spirits'.

Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers:
9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
10 Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?

This is a part of the ancient paganism to seek spirit guides from ancestral spirits, ghosts. For they are much older and have more knowledge because we as old men are still young compared to them. Bildad tells him later to go to the pagan temples to get these spirit guides. Unfortunately it is translated 'spider's web', instead of 'house of the spider', a reference to a pagan goddess tied with the cockatrice in scripture.

Then of course Job rebukes his friends for being under demonic spiritual influences and letting them speak through them. He is 'testing the spirit' behind their teachings and finding them in error just as we are commanded to do.

Job is riddled with spiritual and pagan references that are not easy to see unless you go back to the Hebrew and look for alternate translations and know the pagan references.

**********************

Now about the 'spirit of Elijah' well scripture does say that the 'spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets'. What 'spirits' is being talked about? Is it a group of spirits that serve prophets that are passed on to other prophets? Are spirits of prophets sent back to help other prophets? Are these spirits on earth that serve the will of Yah and help his prophets? It just isn't made clear.

1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Now some actually use John the Baptist being Elijah as some justification for reincarnation. IMO that is nonsense. To be 'Elijah' is to be 'mighty in Yah'. John the Baptist was 'mighty in Yah' so he is an Elijah, not The Elijah.

Now Elijah was in conflict with the corruption brought by Ashtoreth, the goddess of Queen Jezebel. John that Baptist was also killed by a mother/daughter Jezebel pair. He had the same type of calling to stand up to that corruption of his day. He stood against religious and moral corruption.

A couple of things, in response:

* I wasn't saying that Noah WAS the result of angelic seed, only that his appearance was compared to those who *were*, and what that might mean about those who were and their own physical appearance. And I'm talking about those who may have looked essentially "human" in shape and size, but had other variations that would make them stand out, like Noah's hair color, skin color, eye color, etc. I'm not talking about polydactyly, or extreme size, etc ...

* Concerning time, and time in heaven, I would tend to agree with you, however I sort of have a view that "heaven" experiences it's own kind of causality, whilst the one we experience here on earth is a blending of two competing causalities: "Life" and "Death". Life is on a "timeline" that will eventually overtake the "timeline of death" ... and where we see this causality dance take place is the physical universe as we know it. Even science studies this phenomenon, with life and entropy, Big Bang verses Big Crunch, black hole information paradoxes, etc. God can see both causalities, the beginning, and end, and beyond, however those who are "in" the causalities are limited, and need revelation to see farther.

You mention light ... I'll take it one step further. If you consider Schrodinger's Cat, I might say that

* the box the cat is in is what we know as the "physical universe" in all directions;
* and the cat is "us" and other living things which are both living/dying at the same time (i.e. what the average person calls "life");
* everything outside of the box is the "spiritual realms", and experience a causality and physical form which is separate from ours, but *entangled* with ours

Break open the top of the box, and you collapse those two causalities, causing the "cat" to either die, or live, and the two causalities become one, continuous causality now. Thus, the "barrier" might actually be to protect us from being destroyed and overtaken by eternity, giving us time to choose a different causality: "Life", instead of dying only. It's a loosely held analogy, for possible perspective.

* And I don't think the "spiritual" is without form, I just think it's most likely different from the "flesh" we are used to.

Yahu said:

Now about the 'spirit of Elijah' well scripture does say that the 'spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets'. What 'spirits' is being talked about? Is it a group of spirits that serve prophets that are passed on to other prophets? Are spirits of prophets sent back to help other prophets? Are these spirits on earth that serve the will of Yah and help his prophets? It just isn't made clear.

1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Now some actually use John the Baptist being Elijah as some justification for reincarnation. IMO that is nonsense. To be 'Elijah' is to be 'mighty in Yah'. John the Baptist was 'mighty in Yah' so he is an Elijah, not The Elijah.

Click to expand...

Not only the "spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets", but we see the passing of the Holy Spirit via laying on of hands by apostles, and even those who touch *garments* that belonged to Paul, for example, receive healing by faith.

So on the one hand, we have evil/unclean/fallen/disembodied spirits that we don't want in our "house". But on the other hand, we have the spirits of the prophets, and the passing of the Holy Spirit via other people, and at times even the use of objects to perform "good" spiritual things.

Concerning the spirits of the prophets, however ... I would point out that Saul began to prophesy once the Spirit of God came upon him. And I've seen people of all walks prophesy, and have dreams, and have the Word of the Lord come to them ... even if they were atheist, agnostic, a pagan-variety, believer, whatever. Didn't matter. Was this due to the Holy Spirit strictly, or something known as the "spirits of prophets" ?

There are lying spirits, so perhaps there are spirits which are given to reveal revelations to men prophetically, specifically, and that is their main "function". Or perhaps those who are given the gift, change spiritually and become subject to the One who gave the gift, and so when someone is experiencing the "spirit of prophets", trying to figure out which prophet becomes irrelevant, as they are all subject to themselves, with whatever information they have been given.

I have wondered at times, for those who lean heavily on Paul's words, or have a "Pauline theology", if they were being influenced by the "spirit of Paul" for example. Especially if you ask them a question, and they respond with quoting Paul, for Paul's sake. Is this the "spirit of Paul" at work, or something similar ? "I am of Paul. I am of Christ. I am of Peter." ....

Caleb ... had a "different spirit" than the other Israelites, and so got to enter the Promised Land. Was that his own spirit ?

[/somewhat of a tangent]

spitoutthekoolaid said:

Are there classes of 'angels' that were created fully formed like Adam?

Click to expand...

This is the kind of question I was getting at.

Are there classes of 'angels' that were born in heaven?

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Were any born on *earth* ? (hybrid Nephilim aside)

The angels don't marry but are there actual children of Yeshua pre or post his own birth on earth via angelic consorts, ie 'ben Elohyim'?

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This I would highly doubt, concerning Yeshua. And it's not that I'm "against the idea" even … it's just I see time and again people referred to as his siblings, or even his father/mother/etc …. and of course there is His Bride. But I don't see "children of Yeshua" even mentioned symbolically. If there were, would he not have them with His Bride ? Hmm …

Click to expand...

Actually by my understanding there are 'angels' that crossed with other 'angels' on earth. Granted my source is the high priestess of Ashtoreth. She bragged about her superior knowledge about biblical events. It is what got me studying this topic to see what scripture actually said. I was raised in the more traditional understanding of who and what the enemy realm was, ie 'fallen angels'.

Ellen explained many things that got me researching if they could actually be true.

According to her, the Watchers took wives to elevate their low level status by having children under their authority that could achieve higher glory then they were created with. They were created angels of low status. Other higher level angels were actually the offspring of the pre-incarnate form of Yeshua with created female angels as concubines. Yeshua and man were allowed to reproduce but not the 'servant class' of created angels. They had fixed positions of glory at their creation. The angelic children were also forbidden offspring.

There were four HIGH level angels that were assigned to guard Eden. They were the 4 'mighty waters' of Eden, ie rivers in scripture. They interacted with man. It was those four assigned control over spiritual forces on earth. Three of them male, one female. Those angels were to bring spiritual forces to bring blessings on the righteous and punishment on the wicked according to Yah's law.

Those four helped to bind and imprison the watchers for their sin. After the flood, they had no garden to guard but were still assigned on earth. The greatest of them was assigned as the prosecutor of evil as Yah's representative on earth.

After the flood, they also became jealous of man. They tried to avoid the problems of the Watchers and have pure offspring not polluted by the sin nature of man. The leader had children with the one female angel. Their daughters would then marry the other two angels.

This was during the time of Noah, right after the flood. The firstborn was born deformed and crippled and of low status, no wings. The second was born a low level male. The third born as low level female that refused to rebel against the laws of Yah and refused to marry. The fourth was born male with the covering wings on the feet. Still there was no glorious children and no wives for the others while the female angel repented and refused to have more children. They couldn't convince any other female angels to participate so the leader needed another female. He convinced Canaan to castrate Noah and bring his wife to him in exchange for a daughter of angelic descent to marry Canaan in the future.

This was triggered by Noah's behavior. He had put aside his wife while building the ark for fear of having more rebellious children that would be left behind. One of his sons had refused to believe about the coming flood and died as a result. She was angry because of that and refused to have more children by him after the flood. Noah, in an effort to obey Yah's command to have more children was going to take his granddaughters as additional wives. The first one was the one Canaan wanted to marry. She died in childbirth so Noah was to take another wife. His wife and Canaan plotted to stop it. His sons were against it. Canaan castrated Noah to prevent Noah for taking all the women for himself until the next generation of daughters were born.

The angel, Euphrates ('fruitfulness') then raped Na'amah while she slept and got her pregnant. She had twin winged children, one male, one female. Those two children were taken and displayed in heaven as glorious angelic children but when they grew, they carried the sin nature of man. They were the source of the rebellion against Noah.

Canaan got a son by the female twin who was also the mother of Nimrod. She was worshiped as Ashtoreth while her twin was Molech and worshiped as the sun god. During the Tower of Babel, the four angels that sinned were imprisoned, the offspring took over their role as leaders over spiritual forces on earth. They placed their mother over the spirits of man since she was the mother of all mankind while the others took control over all Nephilim spirits.

Now the twins also led the other angelic children into error. They got the female daughter raped and pregnant. That was Anath. She castrated the son produced so he couldn't pass on his Nephilim genes. He was later one of the Judges of Israel and supported the laws of Yah. The first two angelic sons fell into error with one becoming the god of war. Again it was the twins that corrupted them to lead them into error. The fourth son had the gift of prophecy and rejected their efforts but he was also worshiped by man as Nebo (against his will). Anath and Nebo opposed the twins until the end and died by violence even though they were immortals.

Now the male twin didn't want children of greater glory that could supplant him. He went for mass numbers of lesser children that he could rule over by crossing with lesser life forms.

Now Ellen as a high priestess was entitled to know the truth that Yah was real and her goddess was in direct opposition while she kept that information from the lesser coven members. They were not allowed to know the truth that they were serving enemies of Yah. What made her a candidate for worldwide high priestess was knowing the truth yet choosing to serve the enemy and their goals and motives even after knowing that truth and the ultimate cost of rebellion. She wanted power on earth now. She was volunteerily taken posession of by the spirit of Ashtoreth's eldest grand daughter. The current worldwide high priestess was possessed by the spirit of Ashtoreth's eldest daughter.

After hearing details like that, I started studying scripture and started to see the evidence that scripture lined up with her knowledge. Granted scripture does NOT spell it out clearly. It is a 'mystery' that the enemy wants to remain hidden. They have been behind the spread of false doctrine to ensure it remained hidden.

Now, how much of it is truth? That is for us to determine by finding the clues scattered in scripture. I have yet to find any direct scriptural conflict while I have found many 'doctrines' that are in conflict.

Now your question about Yeshua and his bride, well a wife and a concubine held differing status but men in scripture were not limited to only a wife. We can't filter scripture through our own cultural bias. In the law, a man could take a female servant as a concubine. She was not a wife but the mother of some of his children. Those children were not heirs but additional servants of the household. By our culture that would be viewed as evil. Granted that is exactly the position that Noah's wife took and she is a major spiritual force pushing for the equality of women and demanding exclusivity of a man. Now Ashtoreth pushes the superiority of women and the tactics to achieve it since she was the most glorious women born on earth.

According to Ellen, the twins had their wings removed to help prevent them from developing pride but they still fell into error. Now they try to lead as many others into error to get Yah to change His mind on the consequences of eternal judgement. There are also many greatly diluted Nephilim bloodlines out there today that the spiritual influences hinder them from the call to repentance. They are the tares sown by the enemy in the earth.

Now the enemy realm carry's out the role of punishing the wicked and rewarding the righteous but they do so in error while trying to lead people into wickedness so they can be destroyed to fill their ranks.

Yahu said:

Are spirits of prophets sent back to help other prophets? Are these spirits on earth that serve the will of Yah and help his prophets? It just isn't made clear.

1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Now some actually use John the Baptist being Elijah as some justification for reincarnation. IMO that is nonsense. To be 'Elijah' is to be 'mighty in Yah'. John the Baptist was 'mighty in Yah' so he is an Elijah, not The Elijah.

Now Elijah was in conflict with the corruption brought by Ashtoreth, the goddess of Queen Jezebel. John that Baptist was also killed by a mother/daughter Jezebel pair. He had the same type of calling to stand up to that corruption of his day. He stood against religious and moral corruption.

Click to expand...

Sorry to post back to back 3 times, but I just remembered something, along the lines of way "spirits work" ... and something like a "spiritual tool" ...

Awhile back, I befriended this girl, and God began to show me that she had something to help me spiritually, and me her. She wasn't a "believer", but nonetheless ... God began to work quite powerfully rather quickly. I had the ability to see into her "core" as I called it. Basically connect with it. She could be out in public, eating a certain type of food ... and I would call her, knowing what it was for example, getting the same hunger myself. I remember out of the complete blue, she decided to get a tattoo one weekend, her first, unnannounced to anyone ... and at the very time she was getting a tattoo, I was envisioning it, seeing it my mind, feeling the sting of it on my back. I had no preconceived thought she was going to do this, or what it would be like ... but I envisioned it, and FELT IT.

What finally got her to see and accept that there was something "supernatural going on", was when she cheated and committed adultery with another person we both knew. I didn't know they had ever talked to each other for that matter, but when I saw the event, I also felt it ... like I was being raped, against my will. I remember being out eating with my children, and I had to go to the bathroom and puke and get control of myself, because I could feel what was happening and going on. I talked to her about this, and it turned out I was right ... I not only went through that when she did, but I knew who it was with, when I had essentially no reason to suspect this at all.

This was actually the tipping point that caused her to open up, and I began to mention God and the Lord ... and she acknowledged that the Lord and God were working, even though she didn't totally understand it. She began to break down spiritually and morally, turning to repentance ... and God began to show me a way out for her, some specific things she could do to put her on that path and "keep her house clean". We identified a spirit, by name, and to save the details ... I'll just say that there turned out to be a *lot* of graphic, personal things going on. I finally helped her as much as I knew to do, and eventually experienced a release and relief from the effects of "seeing her heart and soul and core" like that.

What I don't know precisely, are how the "spiritual mechanics" of that works. I know the Lord searches hearts and minds, and there were times the apostles did as such ... and so the Lord can reveal that type of information. But I didn't just receive the information, it was as though I *felt* the spirit within my own self, trapped, like I had my hand on it's throat. I didn't seek to have it come to me, it was there, and it was as though I experienced both her, and the spirit, in my own flesh at times. Some people call this "empath" but I don't really care for that term. In the long run, I basically helped her to see it for herself, and choose to get rid of it or not.

At times, I wondered if I was sending my own spirit, into her own "void" and finding things there, and that's why I was able to see the type of revelatory things I saw. I had experienced this type of thing MANY times ... so it wasn't new to me. But some of the *strength* in which I experienced it, was hard to deal with at times. If I had to describe it, it was as though I had my own spirit, in my own flesh ... but that I was trusted with something of hers, as she "let me in", and God was there as well (since I have the Holy Spirit). Her "core" did not have the Holy Spirit, and so what I was experiencing and cleaning out, was her "outer court" or something. Not her Holy of Holies per se ... but, the stuff around it. Like God have given me a tool to do this with, so that I didn't really "enter her", like I was possessing her, rather I was reaching over and doing something else, "with" something else. Whatever that "tool" was ....

That "tool" that I was fortunate to have in order to sort of "reach to her" with and do the cleaning, was some kind of "spirit", I just don't know the "spiritual mechanics" of what I might label it as.

cyberlizard said:

I am looking for ideas and definitions really...

What do you believe demons are, where did they come from and where do they live?

Is there a difference between a demon and an unclean spirit and a fallen angel, or do you believe they are just different terms for the same thing?



Steve

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I have it on good authority that they live in Peoria, IL.... just off 43rd street. I think it's a brick house.

spitoutthekoolaid said:

* And I don't think the "spiritual" is without form, I just think it's most likely different from the "flesh" we are used to.

Click to expand...

I see it as another dimension over-laid upon our physical dimension. Our spirit form over-lays our physical form while our physical form can't perceive the spiritual layer without a gift like discernment of spirits.

spitoutthekoolaid said:

That "tool" that I was fortunate to have in order to sort of "reach to her" with and do the cleaning, was some kind of "spirit", I just don't know the "spiritual mechanics" of what I might label it as.

Click to expand...

Well as I see it, the spiritual gifts can operate in different ways. For example, my discernment of spirits I sometimes get spiritual 'smells'. It isn't through my spiritual eyes like many experience. I have seen visions with my spiritual eyes so they operate under a different gift IMO.

It sounds to me you may have a form of something like 'word of wisdom' or 'word of knowledge' that is coming through your spiritual sense of feel. Does that make sense?

IMO the gifts can operate through different spiritual senses. Some may see spirits, some may feel them, some may hear them or smell them for example. Can other gifts also operate through different senses so behave differently within different individuals?

I would say it is the Holy Spirit that is the means of providing that connection.

Of course, it could possibly also be some other type of spiritual connection. For example, I have had love spells sent against me that caused a 'connection' with another. It actually caused pain when we were separated and pleasure when we were together. I actually felt it let go of me when I specifically broke 'love spells'. I had gotten so used to the pain that I didn't even notice it until it let loose. One time the pain had gotten so great, my ex-wife thought I was having a heart attack. So spiritual forces can effect our feelings. They are also very good at manipulating emotions.

Everything the enemy has is a mirror of abilities granted by the Holy Spirit. So you have to test the source IMO. Now if the result was bringing her to repentance, you can test it by the fruit. Would the enemy draw her closer to Yah?

Yahu said:

Actually by my understanding there are 'angels' that crossed with other 'angels' on earth. Granted my source is the high priestess of Ashtoreth. She bragged about her superior knowledge about biblical events. It is what got me studying this topic to see what scripture actually said. I was raised in the more traditional understanding of who and what the enemy realm was, ie 'fallen angels'.

Ellen explained many things that got me researching if they could actually be true.

According to her, the Watchers took wives to elevate their low level status by having children under their authority that could achieve higher glory then they were created with. They were created angels of low status. Other higher level angels were actually the offspring of the pre-incarnate form of Yeshua with created female angels as concubines. Yeshua and man were allowed to reproduce but not the 'servant class' of created angels. They had fixed positions of glory at their creation. The angelic children were also forbidden offspring.

There were four HIGH level angels that were assigned to guard Eden. They were the 4 'mighty waters' of Eden, ie rivers in scripture. They interacted with man. It was those four assigned control over spiritual forces on earth. Three of them male, one female. Those angels were to bring spiritual forces to bring blessings on the righteous and punishment on the wicked according to Yah's law.

Those four helped to bind and imprison the watchers for their sin. After the flood, they had no garden to guard but were still assigned on earth. The greatest of them was assigned as the prosecutor of evil as Yah's representative on earth.

After the flood, they also became jealous of man. They tried to avoid the problems of the Watchers and have pure offspring not polluted by the sin nature of man. The leader had children with the one female angel. Their daughters would then marry the other two angels.

This was during the time of Noah, right after the flood. The firstborn was born deformed and crippled and of low status, no wings. The second was born a low level male. The third born as low level female that refused to rebel against the laws of Yah and refused to marry. The fourth was born male with the covering wings on the feet. Still there was no glorious children and no wives for the others while the female angel repented and refused to have more children. They couldn't convince any other female angels to participate so the leader needed another female. He convinced Canaan to castrate Noah and bring his wife to him in exchange for a daughter of angelic descent to marry Canaan in the future.

This was triggered by Noah's behavior. He had put aside his wife while building the ark for fear of having more rebellious children that would be left behind. One of his sons had refused to believe about the coming flood and died as a result. She was angry because of that and refused to have more children by him after the flood. Noah, in an effort to obey Yah's command to have more children was going to take his granddaughters as additional wives. The first one was the one Canaan wanted to marry. She died in childbirth so Noah was to take another wife. His wife and Canaan plotted to stop it. His sons were against it. Canaan castrated Noah to prevent Noah for taking all the women for himself until the next generation of daughters were born.

The angel, Euphrates ('fruitfulness') then raped Na'amah while she slept and got her pregnant. She had twin winged children, one male, one female. Those two children were taken and displayed in heaven as glorious angelic children but when they grew, they carried the sin nature of man. They were the source of the rebellion against Noah.

Canaan got a son by the female twin who was also the mother of Nimrod. She was worshiped as Ashtoreth while her twin was Molech and worshiped as the sun god. During the Tower of Babel, the four angels that sinned were imprisoned, the offspring took over their role as leaders over spiritual forces on earth. They placed their mother over the spirits of man since she was the mother of all mankind while the others took control over all Nephilim spirits.

Now the twins also led the other angelic children into error. They got the female daughter raped and pregnant. That was Anath. She castrated the son produced so he couldn't pass on his Nephilim genes. He was later one of the Judges of Israel and supported the laws of Yah. The first two angelic sons fell into error with one becoming the god of war. Again it was the twins that corrupted them to lead them into error. The fourth son had the gift of prophecy and rejected their efforts but he was also worshiped by man as Nebo (against his will). Anath and Nebo opposed the twins until the end and died by violence even though they were immortals.

Now the male twin didn't want children of greater glory that could supplant him. He went for mass numbers of lesser children that he could rule over by crossing with lesser life forms.

Now Ellen as a high priestess was entitled to know the truth that Yah was real and her goddess was in direct opposition while she kept that information from the lesser coven members. They were not allowed to know the truth that they were serving enemies of Yah. What made her a candidate for worldwide high priestess was knowing the truth yet choosing to serve the enemy and their goals and motives even after knowing that truth and the ultimate cost of rebellion. She wanted power on earth now. She was volunteerily taken posession of by the spirit of Ashtoreth's eldest grand daughter. The current worldwide high priestess was possessed by the spirit of Ashtoreth's eldest daughter.

After hearing details like that, I started studying scripture and started to see the evidence that scripture lined up with her knowledge. Granted scripture does NOT spell it out clearly. It is a 'mystery' that the enemy wants to remain hidden. They have been behind the spread of false doctrine to ensure it remained hidden.

Now, how much of it is truth? That is for us to determine by finding the clues scattered in scripture. I have yet to find any direct scriptural conflict while I have found many 'doctrines' that are in conflict.

Now your question about Yeshua and his bride, well a wife and a concubine held differing status but men in scripture were not limited to only a wife. We can't filter scripture through our own cultural bias. In the law, a man could take a female servant as a concubine. She was not a wife but the mother of some of his children. Those children were not heirs but additional servants of the household. By our culture that would be viewed as evil. Granted that is exactly the position that Noah's wife took and she is a major spiritual force pushing for the equality of women and demanding exclusivity of a man. Now Ashtoreth pushes the superiority of women and the tactics to achieve it since she was the most glorious women born on earth.

According to Ellen, the twins had their wings removed to help prevent them from developing pride but they still fell into error. Now they try to lead as many others into error to get Yah to change His mind on the consequences of eternal judgement. There are also many greatly diluted Nephilim bloodlines out there today that the spiritual influences hinder them from the call to repentance. They are the tares sown by the enemy in the earth.

Now the enemy realm carry's out the role of punishing the wicked and rewarding the righteous but they do so in error while trying to lead people into wickedness so they can be destroyed to fill their ranks.

Click to expand...

Have you ever spoken to or dealt with anyone else like Ellen, but who is unrelated to the Ashtoreth spirit ?

I have ... they have been a variety of different people who have different "status" with different "spirits and their culture". They have all exhibited their spiritual ability, and thus have strong reasons to believe what they believe. They all have very similar things in common as well:

* They "monologue", much like the villains in a story's plot or script, telling you everything you ever wanted to know and more about their secrets, plans, origins, authority and power, etc
* They can prove their spiritual prowess via demonstrations, which are sometimes dangerous (as you point out with love spells, for example ... I have experienced similar things)
* They all have different accounts of who Jesus/Yeshua/insert-mystery-name-for-Jesus-here, was
* Their accounts of "origins" and how the spiritual universe works end up contradicting each other in various fashions, even though they very much align with random puzzle pieces and evidence throughout history, and sometimes even scripturally
* The authority and way of Christ trumps their own prowess, at least in my experience
* The more high up they are in "knowledge and power", the closer they seem to coming to some truths, but ultimately shunning basic "fruit" like love, respect, hope, faith in the Lord, freedom, etc

I don't know about you, but typically when I hear accounts like this from the <insert-spiritual-status-title-here> people, I very much try to examine the "fruit". The motivation the spirits involved have, the ultimate goal in their knowledge and power they are sharing and using, etc. ...

And the Elijah-Jezebel dynamic can be a terrifying one. I've faced those ... when you come up against a spirit that seems so overwhelming, and gets you in the "right places" ...

Yahu said:

Well as I see it, the spiritual gifts can operate in different ways. For example, my discernment of spirits I sometimes get spiritual 'smells'. It isn't through my spiritual eyes like many experience. I have seen visions with my spiritual eyes so they operate under a different gift IMO.

It sounds to me you may have a form of something like 'word of wisdom' or 'word of knowledge' that is coming through your spiritual sense of feel. Does that make sense?

IMO the gifts can operate through different spiritual senses. Some may see spirits, some may feel them, some may hear them or smell them for example. Can other gifts also operate through different senses so behave differently within different individuals?

I would say it is the Holy Spirit that is the means of providing that connection.

Of course, it could possibly also be some other type of spiritual connection. For example, I have had love spells sent against me that caused a 'connection' with another. It actually caused pain when we were separated and pleasure when we were together. I actually felt it let go of me when I specifically broke 'love spells'. I had gotten so used to the pain that I didn't even notice it until it let loose. One time the pain had gotten so great, my ex-wife thought I was having a heart attack. So spiritual forces can effect our feelings. They are also very good at manipulating emotions.

Everything the enemy has is a mirror of abilities granted by the Holy Spirit. So you have to test the source IMO. Now if the result was bringing her to repentance, you can test it by the fruit. Would the enemy draw her closer to Yah?

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Yeah my thing was more about being interested in the exact "mechanics". Instead of just saying, "It was the Holy Spirit", or the "gift of _____" .... is it *just* the Holy Spirit, or is that too generalized a way of putting it ? It is in actuality some other term, or type of godly spirit at work ?

I think I try to look at things in a "classification" manner at times.

spitoutthekoolaid said:

Sorry to post back to back 3 times, but I just remembered something, along the lines of way "spirits work" ... and something like a "spiritual tool" ...

Awhile back, I befriended this girl, and God began to show me that she had something to help me spiritually, and me her. She wasn't a "believer", but nonetheless ... God began to work quite powerfully rather quickly. I had the ability to see into her "core" as I called it. Basically connect with it. She could be out in public, eating a certain type of food ... and I would call her, knowing what it was for example, getting the same hunger myself. I remember out of the complete blue, she decided to get a tattoo one weekend, her first, unnannounced to anyone ... and at the very time she was getting a tattoo, I was envisioning it, seeing it my mind, feeling the sting of it on my back. I had no preconceived thought she was going to do this, or what it would be like ... but I envisioned it, and FELT IT.

What finally got her to see and accept that there was something "supernatural going on", was when she cheated and committed adultery with another person we both knew. I didn't know they had ever talked to each other for that matter, but when I saw the event, I also felt it ... like I was being raped, against my will. I remember being out eating with my children, and I had to go to the bathroom and puke and get control of myself, because I could feel what was happening and going on. I talked to her about this, and it turned out I was right ... I not only went through that when she did, but I knew who it was with, when I had essentially no reason to suspect this at all.

This was actually the tipping point that caused her to open up, and I began to mention God and the Lord ... and she acknowledged that the Lord and God were working, even though she didn't totally understand it. She began to break down spiritually and morally, turning to repentance ... and God began to show me a way out for her, some specific things she could do to put her on that path and "keep her house clean". We identified a spirit, by name, and to save the details ... I'll just say that there turned out to be a *lot* of graphic, personal things going on. I finally helped her as much as I knew to do, and eventually experienced a release and relief from the effects of "seeing her heart and soul and core" like that.

What I don't know precisely, are how the "spiritual mechanics" of that works. I know the Lord searches hearts and minds, and there were times the apostles did as such ... and so the Lord can reveal that type of information. But I didn't just receive the information, it was as though I *felt* the spirit within my own self, trapped, like I had my hand on it's throat. I didn't seek to have it come to me, it was there, and it was as though I experienced both her, and the spirit, in my own flesh at times. Some people call this "empath" but I don't really care for that term. In the long run, I basically helped her to see it for herself, and choose to get rid of it or not.

At times, I wondered if I was sending my own spirit, into her own "void" and finding things there, and that's why I was able to see the type of revelatory things I saw. I had experienced this type of thing MANY times ... so it wasn't new to me. But some of the *strength* in which I experienced it, was hard to deal with at times. If I had to describe it, it was as though I had my own spirit, in my own flesh ... but that I was trusted with something of hers, as she "let me in", and God was there as well (since I have the Holy Spirit). Her "core" did not have the Holy Spirit, and so what I was experiencing and cleaning out, was her "outer court" or something. Not her Holy of Holies per se ... but, the stuff around it. Like God have given me a tool to do this with, so that I didn't really "enter her", like I was possessing her, rather I was reaching over and doing something else, "with" something else. Whatever that "tool" was ....

That "tool" that I was fortunate to have in order to sort of "reach to her" with and do the cleaning, was some kind of "spirit", I just don't know the "spiritual mechanics" of what I might label it as.

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I would call it empathic abilities as well. I have troubles with it myself, where if I focus too much on one person I can start to tune into what is going on in their life. But it doesn't feel good; nor does it feel right. It feels like I'm stalking them on a spiritual level. So I find a way to forcibly withdraw from "caring" so much about them.

Personally I see the spiritual senses as natural gifts that some people have more than others. I do not equate them with the Gifts of the Spirit. The Gifts do use the spiritual senses, like when a prophet hears from God he/she may hear God's spiritual voice, see a vision, taste, smell, or simply know what the Spirit wants them to know. Similar to how the Spirit may use a talented musician to minister to the Church, so God can use those who have trained spiritual senses.

So empathy is not one of the abilities I've personally managed to find a use for with God. But apparently you have. Somehow you've clued into another person's life and have pointed her towards God. That gives me hope that there is something constructive to do with that talent.