A step too far by Stonewall

savedbygrace05 said:

And what a difference it is...

James Cleveland And The Charles Fold Singers - Since Jesus Came Into My Life (Vinyl 1979) - YouTube

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I prefer:

Wintersun - Sons of Winter and Stars - YouTube

Cjwinnit said:

Of course they can marry the person they love. As long as they are both old enough, not insane, not closely related and are of opposing sexes to each other.

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Gay people tend, on the whole, to fall in love with people of the same sex as themselves. That's rather what makes them gay. So telling them, "oh sure, you can get married to someone...as long as it's not someone you're in love with," is either missing the point by a country mile, or just deliberately antagonistic.

David Brider said:

Gay people tend, on the whole, to fall in love with people of the same sex as themselves. That's rather what makes them gay. So telling them, "oh sure, you can get married to someone...as long as it's not someone you're in love with," is either missing the point by a country mile, or just deliberately antagonistic.

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I think it more of a sign that someone doesn't give two hoots.

Cjwinnit said:

Of course they can marry the person they love. As long as they are both old enough, not insane, not closely related and are of opposing sexes to each other.

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Interesting. Just out of curiosity, would you think it fair if you were told by the government "You can marry the person you love, so long as they are not christian"?

I've never seen anything approaching a decent secular argument against gay marriage, always the same attempts to force christian beliefs on everyone else.

Cromulent said:

Interesting. Just out of curiosity, would you think it fair if you were told by the government "You can marry the person you love, so long as they are not christian"?

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The purpose of marriage is to keep mum and dad together.

You see, when a man and a woman get together they sometimes make a baby. That's where babies come from. Societies through the ages usually see it fit that it's a good idea to keep mum and dad together. That's what marriage is.

In answer to your question;

If the survival of the human race through to the next generation relied on the conjugal union of a Christian and a Non-Christian and that 99.999999% of babies came from the union of a Christian and a Non-Christian, then yes. But it's not.

Cjwinnit said:

The purpose of marriage is to keep mum and dad together.

You see, when a man and a woman get together they sometimes make a baby. That's where babies come from. Societies through the ages usually see it fit that it's a good idea to keep mum and dad together. That's what marriage is.

In answer to your question;

If the survival of the human race through to the next generation relied on the conjugal union of a Christian and a Non-Christian and that 99.999999% of babies came from the union of a Christian and a Non-Christian, then yes. But it's not.

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Wrong. If marriage was all about making babies, why are infertile people or those with no intention of breeding allowed to marry? This is a PRATT.

And even if it was, it's not as if there's a pressing need for the species to multiply as quickly as possible, especially not in Western Europe, and even if that was the case, banning gay people from getting married to the person they love and want to spend the rest of their lives with is not going to make straight people breed any faster, or stay with their partners any longer.

Cjwinnit said:

The purpose of marriage is to keep mum and dad together.

You see, when a man and a woman get together they sometimes make a baby. That's where babies come from. Societies through the ages usually see it fit that it's a good idea to keep mum and dad together. That's what marriage is.

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No. Marriage is what happens when two people decide to make a commitment to spend the rest of their natural lives together, for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, 'til death do them part. Sometimes, a married couple decide to have babies. Sometimes, a married couple decide not (or are otherwise unable) to have babies. Sometimes, an unmarried couple decide to have babies.

I got married to my wife because we both love each other very much (which, I think, tends to be the main reason for two people to get married in the western world), and because we wanted to commit to spending our natural lives together. Whether we might or might not have babies together is neither here nor there. At the moment we're not really financially in a position to consider it. For all we know, we might not be able to have babies anyway.

I've yet to hear any really good reason why a same-sex couple should not be allowed to make the same commitment that my wife and I have made, and to call it marriage.

David.

savedbygrace05 said:

I wonder if you will consider the Creator's reason good enough?!!

Gen 2: 23 - 24 "The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman, ’for she was taken out of man.” For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

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Looks like that passage is telling me I shouldn't have moved out of my parents' house until I had found someone to marry. Do you think there should be laws against that?

savedbygrace05 said:

I wonder if you will consider the Creator's reason good enough?!!

Gen 2: 23 - 24 "The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman, ’for she was taken out of man.” For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

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I don't see what that verse has to do with same-sex marriage. Sorry.

David.

Cromulent said:

Looks like that passage is telling me I shouldn't have moved out of my parents' house until I had found someone to marry. Do you think there should be laws against that?

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You are giving the game away.

If that passage is telling you something, is there need for additional laws,

David Brider said:

I don't see what that verse has to do with same-sex marriage. Sorry.

David.

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Not to step on SBG's toes here, but in my opinion Genesis 19 (the whole chapter) is a useful starting point for discussion(s) on this topic...

savedbygrace05 said:

You said, "I've yet to hear any really good reason why a same-sex couple should not be allowed to make the same commitment that my wife and I have made, and to call it marriage."

I have given you the Creator's reason, which states very clearly that the only marriage or coming together of 2 human beings is based on the passage from Gen 2: 23 - 24.

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The trouble is, the passage from Genesis 2:23 - 24 doesn't state that, very clearly or otherwise. You're reading stuff into it that isn't there.

David.

Mr Bungle said:

Not to step on SBG's toes here, but in my opinion Genesis 19 (the whole chapter) is a useful starting point for discussion(s) on this topic...

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Although that, also, doesn't say anything about not letting same-sex couples get married.

David Brider said:

The trouble is, the passage from Genesis 2:23 - 24 doesn't state that, very clearly or otherwise. You're reading stuff into it that isn't there.

David.

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SBG is correct, correct according to tractate of Sanhedrin.
"One flesh",

The fetus is formed by them both, and there (in the child) their flesh becomes one.
(Sanhedrin 58a).

"Therefore, a man shall leave his mother and father".

The Divine Spirit says this, to prohibit forbidden unions to the Noahides.
(Sanhedrin 58a)

Plus there are many commentaries, explanations and opinions.

So it is not a case of reading into something which is not there.


You as a Christian, have you cut off your hand yet?

Does it not say," If your right hand causes you sin, cut it off."

Robban said:

SBG is correct, correct according to tractate of Sanhedrin.
"One flesh",

The fetus is formed by them both, and there (in the child) their flesh becomes one.
(Sanhedrin 58a).

"Therefore, a man shall leave his mother and father".

The Divine Spirit says this, to prohibit forbidden unions to the Noahides.
(Sanhedrin 58a)

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But what does that have to do with allowing same-sex couples to get married?

savedbygrace05 said:

The first two humans created were Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!

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Ah, the old ones are the best. Or not, as the case may be.