You know you are confused when....

AskTheFamily · Nov 5, 2012

1) You don't know if you know God exists or not
2) You don't know if you know praise is justifiable or not
3) You don't know if you know value of self is justifiable or not.
4) You don't know if you know any morals are justifiable or not.
5) You don't know if you know free-will exists or not, or is even possible or not.
6) You don't know if you know who you are or don't.

I am confused in a height of confusion.

Are the nihilist right?

Was there a beautiful wisdom in the sought journey for wisdom?

Was the truth even worth the search?

xDenax · Nov 5, 2012

AskTheFamily said:
1) You don't know if you know God exists or not
2) You don't know if you know praise is justifiable or not
3) You don't know if you know value of self is justifiable or not.
4) You don't know if you know any morals are justifiable or not.
5) You don't know if you know free-will exists or not, or is even possible or not.
6) You don't know if you know who you are or don't.

I'm not so sure that's a state of confusion. Take a deep breath and try to enjoy the process of learning.

AskTheFamily · Nov 5, 2012

xDenax said:
Take a deep breath and try to enjoy the process of learning.

The process of learning is enjoyable, because you believe what you are learning is worthwhile.

But what if the truth is there is no meaning, no value, no justice, no praise, no goodness?

Evolution wise, we probably got the instinct that the truth is beautiful, great, exalted...that wisdom is a treasure that will guide you on how to live. But people's "truth" was based on myth. Stories with no proof.

We evolved believing in myths, and hence had a instinct to believe truth is valuable.

But if the damn nihilists are right, what is the point of this quest?

awitch · Nov 5, 2012

AskTheFamily said:
But if the damn nihilists are right, what is the point of this quest?

I think the trick is that you get to decide the point for yourself.

drjean · Nov 5, 2012

Yes, I would agree that life would be confusing without knowing at least a few of those. I obtain my worth from God. If you don't believe in God, then that is a problem. Since most of those things you list must be taken by faith, must be layered one upon the other and affirmed many many times before one can believe them, why not pick one and begin?

Try not to over-think any of them though!

I would pick morals, personally at this juncture. What could you find that is bad about being good...nothing really. So find what is good and true about having a baseline for doing good.... and see if that helps you on your path. :hug:

AskTheFamily · Nov 5, 2012

awitch said:
I think the trick is that you get to decide the point for yourself.

Nah, that's a delusion they come up with. You can only decide a point yourself, if you believe it's meaningful yourself.

You can't make your own purpose without believing that purpose is worthwhile. But without believe in objective purposes and value and judgement, you cannot make such a decision.

I can try as I might, try to make the night of qadr worth a thousand months in my mind. But I won't be able to, unless I believe I am justified in doing so.

It's the same with creating a meaningful purpose or valuing something.

AskTheFamily · Nov 5, 2012

drjean said:
Yes, I would agree that life would be confusing without knowing at least a few of those. I obtain my worth from God. If you don't believe in God, then that is a problem. Since most of those things you list must be taken by faith, must be layered one upon the other and affirmed many many times before one can believe them, why not pick one and begin?

Try not to over-think any of them though!

I would pick morals, personally at this juncture. What could you find that is bad about being good...nothing really. So find what is good and true about having a baseline for doing good.... and see if that helps you on your path.

The problem with morals is that naturalism evolution wise, explains why we would believe in them, want them to be true, and act with belief in them, but at the same time, it shows it's rather without rational basis. It is what it is because it worked. Humans being thinking type of creature would've wanted justification for morals. Myths/magical thinking provided that justification.

Does naturalism provide that justification? I don't think so.

Instinctively, we cannot let go our belief in praise and morals.

We cannot function without belief in praise.

But Darwin, the cursed creature he is, seems to have found a theory that would destroy the foundations of our assumptions.

It seems William Lane Craig is right when he says, without God, there cannot be an objective morality.

But is he right when he says objective morality exists? Yes, even Richard Dawkins acts and talks as if it exists. But does it prove it?

How do you prove praise and morals to yourself?

awitch · Nov 5, 2012

AskTheFamily said:
Nah, that's a delusion they come up with. You can only decide a point yourself, if you believe it's meaningful yourself.

Yes.

You can't make your own purpose without believing that purpose is worthwhile. But without believe in objective purposes and value and judgement, you cannot make such a decision.

Yes, but there is no motivation to pursue a purpose that you don't believe to be worthwhile. You decide on a purpose because it is intrinsically important to you. A point to the multiverse is beyond our limited scope.

AskTheFamily · Nov 5, 2012

awitch said:
Yes.
You decide on a purpose because it is intrinsically important to you.

At bare minimum, you would have to believe you are of value and you yourself are meaningful purpose to serve. That's bare minimum. But nihilism shows such an assumption is baseless.

The nihilist are themselves irrational in suggesting to coping with it. They ofcourse valuing love still want you to live and be alight, so they suggest on how to live without meaning, without value to anything. But technically, they would not be more "wrong" in telling us to commit suicide, at least, from the perspective that they are right.

drjean · Nov 5, 2012

I know my gut reaction (the other brain) when I don't do good towards others... or when I become angry with a person, how that intense feeling does ME harm... but when I maintain that baseline of morality, of that showing forth good towards other regardless of how they behave, then I don't get those upsets, instead I have peace.

You set your own baseline of morality when you don't have God. And I really do think to have good morals you need the baseline from God... but people, though sinful without God, do have intrinsic value or God would not have bothered to redeem us.

AskTheFamily · Nov 5, 2012

drjean said:
I know my gut reaction (the other brain) when I don't do good towards others... or when I become angry with a person, how that intense feeling does ME harm... but when I maintain that baseline of morality, of that showing forth good towards other regardless of how they behave, then I don't get those upsets, instead I have peace.

You set your own baseline of morality when you don't have God. And I really do think to have good morals you need the baseline from God... but people, though sinful without God, do have intrinsic value or God would not have bothered to redeem us.

Heh, naturalism perspective wise evolution hard wired us with myths. Not only do we believe in morals, but we regret our past actions, as if sins cling on to our souls and we need to purify ourselves from their effects.

It hurts when we do evil, and feels peaceful when we do good.

I know it feels like goodness exists, I know feels like praise exists and is justified, I can even say it feels like the soul and God exists...but how do I know for certain?

Nooj · Nov 6, 2012

Certainty is a fool's game, played by fools. Of course, so is life. So whatchya gonna do.

I really think you should read some Nietzsche.

SeventhValley · Nov 6, 2012

Remember Priests,Mullahs etc... do not know anymore than you do. The whole idea of God and religion is interesting. If there really was a testable,factual, scientific basis for religion it would not be theology it would be fact. But even within the same faith traditions people disagree on how to follow there own rules. People do not have proof if a God or Gods exist let alone what religion is correct. It comes down to cultural expressions of spirituality which can be fulfilling if done well.

Nietzsche foresaw that in a scientific age some people realizing these things would fall into nihilism because religion dose not prepare people to deal with the real world if looked at realistically. He saw that people would have to dig down deep inside and pull out a inner strength to overcome this.

dazed · Nov 6, 2012

AskTheFamily said:
The problem with morals is that naturalism evolution wise, explains why we would believe in them, want them to be true, and act with belief in them, but at the same time, it shows it's rather without rational basis. It is what it is because it worked. Humans being thinking type of creature would've wanted justification for morals. Myths/magical thinking provided that justification.

Does naturalism provide that justification? I don't think so.

Instinctively, we cannot let go our belief in praise and morals.

We cannot function without belief in praise.

But Darwin, the cursed creature he is, seems to have found a theory that would destroy the foundations of our assumptions.

It seems William Lane Craig is right when he says, without God, there cannot be an objective morality.

But is he right when he says objective morality exists? Yes, even Richard Dawkins acts and talks as if it exists. But does it prove it?

How do you prove praise and morals to yourself?

There is no such thing as objective morality. What is moral/immoral in a one religion/country is not necessarily the same in other parts of the world. Atheists made a very valid point, so far religions are wrong about science, geography etc, but we are supposed to believe that religions are right about morality?

I think if we believe there is no morality without the Abrahamic's God's laws, we need to look at China. It was the world's most advanced civilization without the benefits of the Word of God for millennia. Yet, the Chinese didn't resort to stealing, killing etc among themselves. They didn't have a problem killing and stealing from the non-Chinese. Come to think of it, the Israelites behaved the same way after they received the Laws.

drjean · Nov 6, 2012

AskTheFamily said:
Heh, naturalism perspective wise evolution hard wired us with myths. Not only do we believe in morals, but we regret our past actions, as if sins cling on to our souls and we need to purify ourselves from their effects.

It hurts when we do evil, and feels peaceful when we do good.

I know it feels like goodness exists, I know feels like praise exists and is justified, I can even say it feels like the soul and God exists...but how do I know for certain?

Then, since you do have these inclinations, focus on God. HE can show you He is real. ASK HIM to show you, and then, when you get the thought that maybe "that was a God-thing" allow it to be...and wait for more... I think you're trying to figure it all out in your mind, and when it's a higher spiritual element, the mind can't handle it... but don't feel bad, none of us can "figure out God" completely (because we aren't God!) :hug:

AskTheFamily · Nov 6, 2012

drjean said:
Then, since you do have these inclinations, focus on God. HE can show you He is real. ASK HIM to show you, and then, when you get the thought that maybe "that was a God-thing" allow it to be...and wait for more... I think you're trying to figure it all out in your mind, and when it's a higher spiritual element, the mind can't handle it... but don't feel bad, none of us can "figure out God" completely (because we aren't God!)

I would probably get mystic experiences if I did ask with sincerity but I probably wouldn't be able to distinguish that mystic experience (as in God providing that) from my schizophrenia. And it probably will make me sick, and it seems to me it probably would be my illness as opposed to divine intervention.

Eudaimonist · Nov 6, 2012

AskTheFamily said:
1) You don't know if you know God exists or not
2) You don't know if you know praise is justifiable or not
3) You don't know if you know value of self is justifiable or not.
4) You don't know if you know any morals are justifiable or not.
5) You don't know if you know free-will exists or not, or is even possible or not.
6) You don't know if you know who you are or don't.

I know all of those things, though I'm not claiming godlike certainty.

I recommend that you keep thinking and studying.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Illuminaughty · Nov 6, 2012

I am confused in a height of confusion.

Most people have the opposite problem. They think they already know everything. No need to revise anything based on new information and experiences because their opinion and understanding is already perfect.

AskTheFamily · Nov 6, 2012

Illuminaughty said:
Most people have the opposite problem. They think they already know everything. No need to revise anything based on new information and experiences because their opinion and understanding is already perfect.

Yet that irrational way to live, is a perfect way to live, because you are happy, have purpose, and have direction.

You get direction, and you go somewhere. So what if the direction and road was all based on fantasy? It at least got you somewhere and made you live in a good fantasy.

Perhaps evolution favored people taking things for granted, being stubborn in their belief system.

Isn't wierd how people of different accents when we were kids sounded inferior to our people's accents? A lot of people don't grow out of this foolish way to look at different means inferior.

But did evolution favor us thinking like that? Can a society function with everyone constantly questioning authority, constantly questioning the very fabric of society, constantly questioning the very basis of the livelyhood of people?

Does it favour people believing their way is superior?

Sister of Faith · Nov 6, 2012

The more you ignore me, the more you get confused!!!

You know you are confused when....

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