What is a 'graven image' and why are we NOT to create them?

Imagican · Oct 24, 2012

hybrid said:
Yep. I believe that the highest form of worship is the expression of unconditional love reflected in the believers life.

No physical or mental images of god required!

Amen!!

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Oct 24, 2012

SilenceInMotion said:
The author of Exodus wrote in a fashion which people of his time understood. It is obvious that when reading it, 'graven images' is speaking about false gods. There was a god for everything in those times.
As it happens, the people below were worshiping a golden calf at the time of Moses descending from the mountain.

Statues of saints, praying to saints as a mediation, having Jesus mounted on a cross, basilicas, and so on are not idolatrous. In fact, if you say these things are idolatrous, then so is holding your Bible to the sky and wearing a cross on your necklace.
There has to be line drawn, and it is either or. You don't get any 'in between' on what and wasn't idolatry.

Funny, you SAY that at the time men were able to make gods out of ANYTHING. Or more precisely that men were had a 'god' for EVERYTHING in those times.

This is a mentality that makes NO SENSE whatsoever. Like things have changed and NOW men CANNOT or DO NOT 'have a god for everything'.

This has NOT changed and it is perfectly preserved in the Catholic Church. HOW MANY 'graven images' exist in their 'churches' that they bow to and PRAY? See, you have simply been DUPED into a false definition of 'gods'.

ANY graven image that you PLACE your love in is a GOD of your own choice or design. And if you DIDN'T, hadn't been TAUGHT, to LOVE the graven images in the 'churches' you wouldn't have a problem if they were not there. Yet you obviously DO. You have been TAUGHT to love them to the point that you would defend them at ANY cost. Have been taught to love them so much that you are now unable to even recognize or admit that THEY ARE GRAVEN IMAGES.

Let's SEE folks. Let us DETERMINE FIRST 'what a graven image' IS:

From Dictionary.com

grav·en

   [grey-vuhn] Show IPA
verb 1. a past participle of grave3 .

grave

3    [greyv] Show IPA
verb (used with object), graved, grav·en or graved, grav·ing. 1. to carve, sculpt, or engrave.

2. to impress deeply: graven on the mind.

im·age

   [im-ij] Show IPA noun, verb, im·aged, im·ag·ing.
noun 1. a physical likeness or representation of a person, animal, or thing, photographed, painted, sculptured, or otherwise made visible.

2. an optical counterpart or appearance of an object, as is produced by reflection from a mirror, refraction by a lens, or the passage of luminous rays through a small aperture and their reception on a surface.

3. a mental representation; idea; conception.

4. Psychology . a mental representation of something previously perceived, in the absence of the original stimulus.

5. form; appearance; semblance: We are all created in God's image.

EXPAND
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verb (used with object) 15. to picture or represent in the mind; imagine; conceive.

16. to make an image of; portray in sculpture, painting, etc.

17. to project (photographs, film, etc.) on a surface: Familiar scenes were imaged on the screen.

18. to reflect the likeness of; mirror.

19. to set forth in speech or writing; describe.

So we see here that graven is simply something carved, sculpted or engraved. But better yet, look at the second definition: to impress deeply: graven on THE MIND.

How about ON THE HEART as well?

Image: the LIKENESS OF...................

So, let's see, those STATUES in the Catholic Church, are THEY CARVED? Are they SCULPTED? Are they IMAGES OF..................?

So you see, it is not ME that has chosen to blind myself to the TRUTH. For the TRUTH is that those statues ARE carved or sculpted. And they ARE IMAGES and so far, admittedly FALSE IMAGES. For NO ONE KNOWS what they people LOOKED LIKE. NO ONE knows what Mary looked like, or Christ. So they are not ONLY 'images', but FALSE IMAGES. And they are MOST CERTAINLY 'graven' images.

And these are NOT JUST 'graven images', but graven images that certain men BOW TO AND PRAY.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Oct 24, 2012

sculleywr said:
Prayer and Icons are not for Christ. Does Christ need the prayer? no! Christ can exist without our prayers. Christ can exist without our belief. Prayer is not telling Him anything He doesn't know.

If prayers aren't for Him, then why do we pray? because prayer is for us. Prayer is to remind us that He is there. That is why FOCUS is necessary.

Second, you are seeing only an image, when there is much more than that. Icons are more than just images. In fact, when one is said to make an Icon, he is not said to be painting, but instead to be writing an Icon. Why? Because you are purposefully writing the thousand words that the Icon will say. Your goal, in making an Icon of Christ, is not to make an accurate representation of His physical form. Instead it is to make an accurate representation of the doctrine of Christ. That He is judge holding the gospel in His hand, but extending mercy because of the Gospels. The light coming from behind him (the halo) showing that He is the Light of the World. The Greek abbreviations "IC XC NIKA" commonly on the Icon, stating, "Jesus Christ, victorious!".

The Icons, when we study and learn what they are telling us, give us focus because the prayers teach us what is true about Christ. When we truly focus on what it means to say "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!", and see this reflected in the earthly reflection of Christ, then we are entered into our own personal prayer requests, for family, friends, health, blessings, prosperity, in the special situations of our life, with awe and reverence.

Yeah, and I have some really nice land here in Florida that you may want to purchase.

You are doing nothing other than repeating what you have heard others say. And that means NOTHING compared to The Word of God. Words of men can come FROM ANY SOURCE.

NO, we pray to share ourselves with God through Christ, (or at least that is why I PRAY). I do NOT do it FOR myself. I do it BECAUSE of the relationship that I desire with God THROUGH Christ.

Your second paragraph REEKS of idolatry and you seem oblivious to your own words: "Icons are MORE than just IMAGES". What more PROOF is needed to plainly PROVE that you ARE INDEED offering undue WORSHIP to 'graven images'? And these images are NOT A REFLECTION of Christ. They are ANYTHING BUT His reflection. They are FALSE IMAGES. They do NOT LOOK LIKE Christ. Unless you next try to convince us that Christ has THOUSANDS of "different" FACES. AWE and REVERENCE. Need you offer anything MORE to prove MY point?

And NOW you are offering that these FALSE IMAGES are able to TELL YOU THINGS. My gosh. I certainly appreciate your candor. For seldom will a Catholic in such conversations BE so candid.

So I leave this ONE POST as PROOF positive that what this man has stated is that HE DOES 'worship' graven images. In other posts he has denied it. But in this one he openly admits it. With such candor I have rarely seen exhibited by other Catholics.

Blessings,

MEC

sculleywr · Oct 24, 2012

Imagican said:
Yeah, and I have some really nice land here in Florida that you may want to purchase.

My parents already have 15-20 acres in Starke. I'm in Chattanooga, though.

You are doing nothing other than repeating what you have heard others say. And that means NOTHING compared to The Word of God. Words of men can come FROM ANY SOURCE.

The Word of God is not a book. The Word of God is a Man, the Man Jesus Christ, Who is God. Jesus Christ taught the Apostles everything they gave us, INCLUDING Icons.

I am not repeating what others have said. I am repeating what I have read in Church history, because I, unlike others, prefer to get my evidence from the horse's mouth. My Church is the Church that gave you the Bible while having Icons.

NO, we pray to share ourselves with God through Christ, (or at least that is why I PRAY). I do NOT do it FOR myself. I do it BECAUSE of the relationship that I desire with God THROUGH Christ.

Prayer is to teach us the truth, just like everything in the life of the Christian. A relationship is nothing if it isn't built on the TRUTH. The TRUTH is that Christ:

1. Was and is human.
2. Could be and was depicted in Icons by the Apostles Luke and John.
3. Should be worshiped alone.
4. Shines His light in the Saints
5. Is reflected by Icons because they confirm the teaching that He became human.

This is the truth. If it is not the truth, then the entire Church was prevailed against by the gates of hades, because history shows us the Icons stretching back all the way to the beginning of the Church.

Your second paragraph REEKS of idolatry and you seem oblivious to your own words: "Icons are MORE than just IMAGES". What more PROOF is needed to plainly PROVE that you ARE INDEED offering undue WORSHIP to 'graven images'? And these images are NOT A REFLECTION of Christ. They are ANYTHING BUT His reflection. They are FALSE IMAGES. They do NOT LOOK LIKE Christ. Unless you next try to convince us that Christ has THOUSANDS of "different" FACES. AWE and REVERENCE. Need you offer anything MORE to prove MY point?

It is ignorance like this that makes me lose faith in human reasoning. You see conspiracies under every rock when you're really looking at bare stone.

WE NEVER SAID THEY LOOK PHYSICALLY LIKE CHRIST!!!

Did I make it big enough for you? The image reflects Christ because it affirms His power and position.

And NOW you are offering that these FALSE IMAGES are able to TELL YOU THINGS. My gosh. I certainly appreciate your candor. For seldom will a Catholic in such conversations BE so candid.

Not speak literally. Apparently you want a metaphor in everything EXCEPT what is being spoken as a metaphorical sense. When did common sense become so uncommon that this kind of reasoning is the norm?

So I leave this ONE POST as PROOF positive that what this man has stated is that HE DOES 'worship' graven images. In other posts he has denied it. But in this one he openly admits it. With such candor I have rarely seen exhibited by other Catholics.

Blessings,

MEC

just for you, so that maybe you will get a clue:

sculleywr · Oct 24, 2012

Imagican, I have a question. Have you ever kissed your spouse, children, or parents?

Was that worshiping them?

No it wasn't. Kissing something does not automatically make it worship. Have you ever said sir or ma'am, or called someone Dr. so-and-so? Then you have venerated them.

By your logic, you worship the doctors, pastors, and teachers that you have, simply by venerating them.

But allthe sudden, when we apply it to your life, that same action is different, simply because you aren't Catholic.

Well I am going to give you a wake up call. What we do for the Icons and the Saints is no different than what you do with your pastors, teachers, spouse, and family.

sculleywr · Oct 24, 2012

the Seventh Council, which defended the doctrine of the icons, may also be considered as a Christological Council, insofar as the doctrine of icons is a consequence of the Christological dogma: the Son of God became man, so He can be depicted in His humanity.

Byzantine iconography is also a means of expressing the faith. The icons, "books of the illiterate," teach most of the faith to one who knows how to read them. Painted according to an austere tradition, in an austere style, after prayer and fasting by the iconographer, the icons become "windows of heaven," revealing to the faithful heavenly mysteries, the mysteries of faith. The icons become a real, sacramental presence of the persons or realities depicted in them, thus leading the faithful to communion with the person or the reality depicted in them. On the basis of the witness obtained through these exponents and expressions of the dogmatical and doctrinal tradition of the Church, one can consequently express the major doctrines of the faith as lived and experienced in the life-context of the Orthodox Church.

--His Eminence Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh

sculleywr · Oct 25, 2012

hybrid said:
Seeing god in everything is the quintessence of the verse god is in all and all in is god and one of the most profound spiritual realization a believer can experience. So if you put it that way, i have no argument against that although i have some reservations that icons can deliver such a tall order.

have patience with my explanation here. I am going to describe it through the Icons themselves, using the most common Icons:

1. Christ Pantocrater
2. The Iveron Icon of the Theotokos

1. Christ Pantocrater

Here we see Christ depicted as almighty One (Pantocrater). This Icon is viewable in the Hagia Sophia.

How is He shown as Almighty? First is the position of the Pantocrater Icon. This Icon is the main Christ Icon placed on the inside of the Dome, facing down to the people of the Church, holding His hand to bless them. This teaches that Christ alone deserves the position above everyone in the world, His Icon is figured above the Icon of the Theotokos, the angels, and all of the saints, who are oriented as if they are all facing Christ in the dome of the Church. This combines together with the Icon itself to show that Christ is the one to whom the Saints and angels owe their power, because it was the light of Christ showing through them.

Within the Icon itself, Christ holds the New Covenant in His left hand, while His right hand is uplifted, as though He is signing the sign of the cross on us. The sign of the Cross is seen as a blessing from one whom you have submitted to as a Spiritual Father. The Spiritual Father, as a representative of Christ, receives his ability to bestow such a blessing on us from Christ Himself. The Icon, in this, shows that Christ, as the bringer and High Priest of the New Covenant, gives to us all, as a priestly nation, the blessing of salvation, through the Cross.

The halo of light behind Him shows that He is the light of the world.

This one has only half of the phrase, but it identifies Christ as IC XC (Jesus Christ). It identifies Jesus as the Christ.

As an image of Christ in His human body, it enforces the doctrine of the Incarnation, that God became man and dwelt among us.

The New Covenant, as part of the Scripture, identifies Him as the Word above the words. He is truly identified as the Word which is above Scripture.

2. The Iveron Icon of the Mother of God

The Iveron Icon of the Mother of God portrays Christ with the Virgin Mary.

You are probably most immediately struck by the portrayal of Christ as a miniature man, instead of as a child. This was meant by Luke to show that despite being a child, he held all the wisdom of God within Himself, and therefore behaved like a mature man. Christ, like in the Pantocrater, has his right hand held out like He is blessing.

the Virgin Mary, instead of facing the viewer, is facing Christ, with her right hand gesturing toward Christ, as though she is showing Him off to the viewer. This is purposeful in the making of the Icon, to show that she is not the center of the Icon. The halos are different as well. Christ's halo is very detailed, while the Virgin's halo is not as highly detailed. This again shows Who she reflects: her Son, who is God in the flesh.

Because her Son is God, she is rightly entitled on the Icon as "MP OV", which is "Mater Theou", or Mother of God.

Wrapping up

How do these relate to the position of Christ and focus us on God's great power? In these Icons is shown the most important doctrines of who Christ is. The only other Icons that would be needed to complete the basics of our Christology: The Crucifixion and the Resurrection!

It is in this focus on the doctrines of Who Christ truly is that we find our true center of prayer. We see the doctrines shown above detailed in the Icons, and that moves us to the right position, such that we prostrate ourselves before Christ Himself, realizing that it is we who are sinful and shamed in life. We who, for our many sins, have need to come again and confess our sins, having them forgiven by God, so that He may save us by His grace! For if He were to save us through works, Salvation would be a base, common, and simple thing to obtain. But if we were to obtain it through His divine and uncreated grace, then we obtain it through a means possible only through God in Christ.

I'm sorry it took me so long to finish this post. But I felt it necessary that my post be very well-presented.

Imagican · Oct 28, 2012

sculleywr said:
Imagican, I have a question. Have you ever kissed your spouse, children, or parents?

Was that worshiping them?

No it wasn't. Kissing something does not automatically make it worship. Have you ever said sir or ma'am, or called someone Dr. so-and-so? Then you have venerated them.

By your logic, you worship the doctors, pastors, and teachers that you have, simply by venerating them.

But allthe sudden, when we apply it to your life, that same action is different, simply because you aren't Catholic.

Well I am going to give you a wake up call. What we do for the Icons and the Saints is no different than what you do with your pastors, teachers, spouse, and family.

In response to the first question. In TRUTH, we worship that which we adore. So, in TRUTH, I most certainly worship my wife, my children, heck, my neighbors as well.

The difference is that I do not worship them AS GOD or in the same MANNER that I worship God. No, a kiss does not signify 'worship' per se, but I openly admit that I worship ALL the 'things' that I adore, and that includes my wife, my children, grandchildren and my neighbors. But it is NOT the 'same' worship that I reserve for God ALONE.

And you are incorrect. When you bow SPECIFICALLY to a 'graven image', you ARE doing something DIFFERENT than what I do when I KISS another.

First of all my wife is FLESH and BLOOD and a CREATION of God. Your 'statues' that you bow to are NOT 'flesh and blood' and are CERTAINLY NOT 'creations of God'. They are GRAVEN IMAGES. Images CREATED by the 'hands of men'.

YOU DO PRAY to the image. You speak DIRECTLY to the image. That is the REASON that the IMAGE EXISTS and WHY you BOW to IT. When you BOW to 'Mother Mary, Queen of Heaven', it IS a STATUE that you bow to.

And the attempt to use the words veneration or reverence doesn't alter the 'act' in the very least.

re·vere

1    [ri-veer] Show IPA
verb (used with object), re·vered, re·ver·ing. to regard with respect tinged with awe; venerate: The child revered her mother.

Origin:
1655–65; < Latin reverērī, equivalent to re- re- + verērī to stand in awe of, fear, feel reverence (akin to ware2 )

To stand in 'awe of', to FEAR. This sounds EXACTLY like 'worship' to me. And reverence is merely to revere.

And you are certainly incorrect in trying to state that the love that I offer to those PEOPLE that I come in contact with is NO DIFFERENT than what you offer to 'wooden statues'. For those 'wooden statues':

Jeremiah 10:

14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

So you see, the Word SPECIFICALLY offers that there is 'NO BREATH' in a 'graven image'.

So there IS a BIG difference in offering or sharing one's love with another verses attempting to share such love with a "WOODEN STATUE".

It is not "I" that sees 'conspiracy around every corner', it is you that has failed to recognize what has been offered DIRECTLY through The Word and followed the teachings of MEN instead.

Blessings,

MEC

1509 · Oct 28, 2012

Imagican said:
In response to the first question. In TRUTH, we worship that which we adore. So, in TRUTH, I most certainly worship my wife, my children, heck, my neighbors as well.

The difference is that I do not worship them AS GOD or in the same MANNER that I worship God. No, a kiss does not signify 'worship' per se, but I openly admit that I worship ALL the 'things' that I adore, and that includes my wife, my children, grandchildren and my neighbors. But it is NOT the 'same' worship that I reserve for God ALONE.

And you are incorrect. When you bow SPECIFICALLY to a 'graven image', you ARE doing something DIFFERENT than what I do when I KISS another.

First of all my wife is FLESH and BLOOD and a CREATION of God. Your 'statues' that you bow to are NOT 'flesh and blood' and are CERTAINLY NOT 'creations of God'. They are GRAVEN IMAGES. Images CREATED by the 'hands of men'.

YOU DO PRAY to the image. You speak DIRECTLY to the image. That is the REASON that the IMAGE EXISTS and WHY you BOW to IT. When you BOW to 'Mother Mary, Queen of Heaven', it IS a STATUE that you bow to.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

To worship :bow:

anything else is the sin of Idolotry.

Imagican · Oct 28, 2012

1509 said:
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

To worship anything else is the sin of Idolotry.

Funny how you would pull this ONE scripture completely out of context and try to use that to SAY something in utter contradiction to the MULTITUDE of scripture. Let me show you the TRUTH:

Matthew 23:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Hmmmmm.........he that serves the MOST shall be the greatest among us?

John 13:

4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

Isn't this an example of Christ offering SERVICE to His disciples?

Didn't I already offer that the worship I offer to God is RESERVED for God and God alone? So aren't you REALLY just trying to 'play with words'?

The response that Christ offered that you quoted was in reference to Satan offering Christ the nations of the world IF Christ would BOW DOWN and WORSHIP him, (Satan), AS GOD.

So how do you compare the words that I offered to bowing down and worshiping my wife, my children or my neighbors AS GOD? When I distinctly offered that I DO NOT worship them AS God. That the worship that I offer God is offered to GOD ALONE.

The word 'worship':

wor·ship (wûr

sh

p)n.1. a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

2. Ardent devotion; adoration.
3. often Worship Chiefly British Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.

v. wor·shiped or wor·shipped, wor·ship·ing or wor·ship·ping, wor·ships
v.tr.1. To honor and love as a deity.
2. To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1.

v.intr.1. To participate in religious rites of worship.
2. To perform an act of worship.

[Middle English worshipe, worthiness, honor, from Old English weorthscipe : weorth, worth; see worth1 + -scipe, -ship.]
wor

ship·er, wor

ship·per n.

worship [ˈwɜːʃɪp]vb -ships, -shipping, -shipped US, -ships -shiping, -shiped1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (tr) to show profound religious devotion and respect to; adore or venerate (God or any person or thing considered divine)
2. (tr) to be devoted to and full of admiration for
3. (intr) to have or express feelings of profound adoration
4. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (intr) to attend services for worship
5. (tr) Obsolete to honour

n1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) religious adoration or devotion
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) the formal expression of religious adoration; rites, prayers, etc.
3. admiring love or devotion
4. Archaic dignity or standing

Admiring love or devotion. That one is good enough for me. That is EXACTLY what I expressed in my last post.

The Bible tells us NOT to worship ANYTHING other than God AS God. The word worship simply means 'admiring love or devotion. I am DEVOTED to my wife and my children and my neighbors. I offer an admiring love to each as well. I do NOT bow to them nor attempt to worship them AS GOD.

So above I have shown examples of Christ SERVING His disciples, (so your offering is obviously out of context or Christ would have been DISOBEYING that very command). And I have shown that 'worship' is NOT what you have been TAUGHT to believe that it is.

Blessings,

MEC

1509 · Oct 28, 2012

Imagican said:
Imagican said:

Funny how you would pull this ONE scripture completely out of context and try to use that to SAY something in utter contradiction to the MULTITUDE of scripture. Let me show you the TRUTH:

Click to expand...

It's not rocket science, Jesus says don't worship ANYTHING but Him.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Senecharnix · Oct 28, 2012

1509 said:
It's not rocket science, Jesus says don't worship ANYTHING but Him.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Click to expand...

I do not recall Yeshua ever saying anything about wanting anyone to worship him. He always pointed to God in such regards...If there is anything in the New Testament suggesting we should worship Yeshua, it was written by men who wrote nonsense....

sculleywr · Oct 28, 2012

Imagican said:
In response to the first question. In TRUTH, we worship that which we adore. So, in TRUTH, I most certainly worship my wife, my children, heck, my neighbors as well.

The difference is that I do not worship them AS GOD or in the same MANNER that I worship God. No, a kiss does not signify 'worship' per se, but I openly admit that I worship ALL the 'things' that I adore, and that includes my wife, my children, grandchildren and my neighbors. But it is NOT the 'same' worship that I reserve for God ALONE.

So you say there are two different types of worship and I'm crazy for giving something other than worship to someone

And you are incorrect. When you bow SPECIFICALLY to a 'graven image', you ARE doing something DIFFERENT than what I do when I KISS another.

First of all my wife is FLESH and BLOOD and a CREATION of God. Your 'statues' that you bow to are NOT 'flesh and blood' and are CERTAINLY NOT 'creations of God'. They are GRAVEN IMAGES. Images CREATED by the 'hands of men'.

The problem is that we do not see ourselves as kissing the object. In fact, the object itself is more of a telephone in that what we do in front of the Icon passes to the prototype of the Icon. For us, it is not the Icon we kiss or bow before, or (in the case of Icons of Christ) prostrate before. It is the person depicted. We bow in reverence to the Saints who died for the faith because of what Christ did through them. We bow in reverence and worship before Christ for what He does in us.

YOU DO PRAY to the image. You speak DIRECTLY to the image. That is the REASON that the IMAGE EXISTS and WHY you BOW to IT. When you BOW to 'Mother Mary, Queen of Heaven', it IS a STATUE that you bow to.

Nice. You're telling ME why I do what I do. You must be a real good psychic, cause you can read MY thoughts and MY intentions better than I can.

No, it is not the image we pray to. And in fact, no Orthodox Christian and properly taught Roman Catholic will say they pray to the image itself. What you are saying is both prejudiced and ridiculous, because you propse that you know why another person does something. Here's a tip:

When I tell you the reason I do something and how I do it, don't attempt to correct me about it. You are not God, therefore, you do not know me better than I know myself.

And the attempt to use the words veneration or reverence doesn't alter the 'act' in the very least.

re·vere

1    [ri-veer] Show IPA
verb (used with object), re·vered, re·ver·ing. to regard with respect tinged with awe; venerate: The child revered her mother.

Origin:
165565; < Latin reverērī, equivalent to re- re- + verērī to stand in awe of, fear, feel reverence (akin to ware2 )

To stand in 'awe of', to FEAR. This sounds EXACTLY like 'worship' to me. And reverence is merely to revere.

Definition of worship:

2worship verb
worshipped also worshipedworship·ping also worship·ing
Definition of WORSHIP

transitive verb
1
: to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2
: to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion <a celebrity worshipped by her fans>

The first use of the verb is the proper use. The second definition of the verb is the sinful worship.

In the Orthodox Church, Worship is defined as that which is due ONLY to God. In other words, if you "worship" your wife, then you have given to your wife that which is due only to God.

Reverence and veneration is very much different. You reverence someone when you call them by the titles of Doctor, Reverend, "Your Honor", and Mr. President. Or maybe you have called your mother and father by the respectful terms of Sir or Ma'am

And you are certainly incorrect in trying to state that the love that I offer to those PEOPLE that I come in contact with is NO DIFFERENT than what you offer to 'wooden statues'. For those 'wooden statues':

Jeremiah 10:

14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

So you see, the Word SPECIFICALLY offers that there is 'NO BREATH' in a 'graven image'.

So there IS a BIG difference in offering or sharing one's love with another verses attempting to share such love with a "WOODEN STATUE".

It is not "I" that sees 'conspiracy around every corner', it is you that has failed to recognize what has been offered DIRECTLY through The Word and followed the teachings of MEN instead.

Blessings,

MEC

Actually, it is not the wooden statues which we see the life in, but the prototype, the person depicted, being raised to new life in Christ in the Baptism, anointed with the Spirit in Chrismation, and brought to Theosis (Sanctification) through his daily struggle against the passions; He is the person in which we see life. Apart from him or her, and Christ, the Icon can have no meaning. The Icon has meaning because Christ was born, lived in a human body which could be reproduced in a physical form as art, and died, being resurrected the third day, defeating Death by His own holy and willing Death on the Cross.

That is where the Icons find life. Not in themselves. Not in us. In God, through Christ, delivered by the work of the Holy Spirit in the actions and lives of our holy fathers, the martyrs, theologians, saints, apostles, patriarchs and monastics who have brought us the Scriptures AND the Icons together in every century.

sculleywr · Oct 28, 2012

1509 said:
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

To worship anything else is the sin of Idolotry.

He translates it as worship. It is veneration, not worship, and the dictionary makes the difference clear. Worship is referenced to the divine. Veneration is not.

Imagican · Oct 29, 2012

sculleywr said:
So you say there are two different types of worship and I'm crazy for giving something other than worship to someone

The problem is that we do not see ourselves as kissing the object. In fact, the object itself is more of a telephone in that what we do in front of the Icon passes to the prototype of the Icon. For us, it is not the Icon we kiss or bow before, or (in the case of Icons of Christ) prostrate before. It is the person depicted. We bow in reverence to the Saints who died for the faith because of what Christ did through them. We bow in reverence and worship before Christ for what He does in us.

Nice. You're telling ME why I do what I do. You must be a real good psychic, cause you can read MY thoughts and MY intentions better than I can.

No, it is not the image we pray to. And in fact, no Orthodox Christian and properly taught Roman Catholic will say they pray to the image itself. What you are saying is both prejudiced and ridiculous, because you propse that you know why another person does something. Here's a tip:

When I tell you the reason I do something and how I do it, don't attempt to correct me about it. You are not God, therefore, you do not know me better than I know myself.

Definition of worship:

2worship verb
worshipped also worshipedworship·ping also worship·ing
Definition of WORSHIP

transitive verb
1
: to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2
: to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion <a celebrity worshipped by her fans>

The first use of the verb is the proper use. The second definition of the verb is the sinful worship.

In the Orthodox Church, Worship is defined as that which is due ONLY to God. In other words, if you "worship" your wife, then you have given to your wife that which is due only to God.

Reverence and veneration is very much different. You reverence someone when you call them by the titles of Doctor, Reverend, "Your Honor", and Mr. President. Or maybe you have called your mother and father by the respectful terms of Sir or Ma'am

Actually, it is not the wooden statues which we see the life in, but the prototype, the person depicted, being raised to new life in Christ in the Baptism, anointed with the Spirit in Chrismation, and brought to Theosis (Sanctification) through his daily struggle against the passions; He is the person in which we see life. Apart from him or her, and Christ, the Icon can have no meaning. The Icon has meaning because Christ was born, lived in a human body which could be reproduced in a physical form as art, and died, being resurrected the third day, defeating Death by His own holy and willing Death on the Cross.

That is where the Icons find life. Not in themselves. Not in us. In God, through Christ, delivered by the work of the Holy Spirit in the actions and lives of our holy fathers, the martyrs, theologians, saints, apostles, patriarchs and monastics who have brought us the Scriptures AND the Icons together in every century.

While each of us is responsible for our own understanding, what I see in these words offered is an 'attempt' to alter the fact that 'bowing to a statue and praying' is considered by MOST, (other than those that have learned this practice through the Catholic Church), to be nothing SHORT of 'worship'.

It has become MY understanding that it is the Catholic Church that has 'altered' the meaning of 'worship' in order to explain their fondness for 'bowing to statues and praying'. For the definition of 'worship' CAN mean nothing other than 'devotion'. It does not HAVE to mean ONLY 'devotion' to God. For the definition is 'adoration'. And I CAN adore ALL of God's creation WITHOUT worshiping it AS God.

But we have, contained within God's Word, direct instruction NOT to make 'graven images' and place UNFOUNDED LOVE or DEVOTION to these 'things'. While we have been instructed to LOVE each other, we have been instructed NOT to place our love in THINGS made by the hands of MEN.

So, you can offer as many 'words' as you please. You can attempt to alter the meaning of 'worship', but in the end, when ALL is said and done, the TRUTH is that there are those, (obviously including yourself), that offer 'veneration', 'worship', 'adoration', (whatever word or words you choose to define it), to 'statues' made by the hands of MEN. And statues that you openly admit are NOT accurate depictions of even the PERSON that they represent. You say that it's a DIFFERENT concept than 'worship'. I say that I can see nothing BUT an attempt to place one's adoration directed AT an 'ITEM'. For that 'statue' neither can BREATH, walk, talk, it is NOTHING but a PIECE of wood carved into the likeness of MEN or WOMEN.

Jeremiah 10:14
Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

Micah 5:13
Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.

Habakkuk 2:18
What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

While YOU say that you do NOT worship the image, it IS the 'image' that you bow to and pray. Whether you try to talk around the issue, it IS the image to which you bow and pray. While most others, (outside of the Catholic Church), have NO NEED for 'idols' to bow to, you insist that the idol REPRESENTS something that you pray to instead of the IDOL. But it IS the IDOL that you bow to regardless of you philosophical explanation. And the more you attempt to explain, the more you reveal that you DO exactly what I have accused. You simply use different words to describe it.

Blessings,

MEC

1509 · Oct 29, 2012

sculleywr said:
He translates it as worship. It is veneration, not worship, and the dictionary makes the difference clear. Worship is referenced to the divine. Veneration is not.

Skull, if you bow or pray to a statue or picture or a human, dead or alive, it's more than veneration, it's the sin of idolotry. There is no way around this, be honest.

sculleywr · Oct 29, 2012

1509 said:
Skull, if you bow or pray to a statue or picture or a human, dead or alive, it's more than veneration, it's the sin of idolotry. There is no way around this, be honest.

Translation: What I don't understand or feel comfortable with, I will translate as sin without Scriptural proof.

The Jews bowed to the bronze serpent at the command of God. Was that also idolatry?

Men in the book of II Samuel and I Chronicles bowed before David. Was that idolatry?

Men were constantly bowing before angels, and while the angels told them not to fear, they were not even implied to be worshiping.

sculleywr · Oct 29, 2012

Imagican said:
While each of us is responsible for our own understanding, what I see in these words offered is an 'attempt' to alter the fact that 'bowing to a statue and praying' is considered by MOST, (other than those that have learned this practice through the Catholic Church), to be nothing SHORT of 'worship'.

It has become MY understanding that it is the Catholic Church that has 'altered' the meaning of 'worship' in order to explain their fondness for 'bowing to statues and praying'. For the definition of 'worship' CAN mean nothing other than 'devotion'. It does not HAVE to mean ONLY 'devotion' to God. For the definition is 'adoration'. And I CAN adore ALL of God's creation WITHOUT worshiping it AS God.

But we have, contained within God's Word, direct instruction NOT to make 'graven images' and place UNFOUNDED LOVE or DEVOTION to these 'things'. While we have been instructed to LOVE each other, we have been instructed NOT to place our love in THINGS made by the hands of MEN.

So, you can offer as many 'words' as you please. You can attempt to alter the meaning of 'worship', but in the end, when ALL is said and done, the TRUTH is that there are those, (obviously including yourself), that offer 'veneration', 'worship', 'adoration', (whatever word or words you choose to define it), to 'statues' made by the hands of MEN. And statues that you openly admit are NOT accurate depictions of even the PERSON that they represent. You say that it's a DIFFERENT concept than 'worship'. I say that I can see nothing BUT an attempt to place one's adoration directed AT an 'ITEM'. For that 'statue' neither can BREATH, walk, talk, it is NOTHING but a PIECE of wood carved into the likeness of MEN or WOMEN.

Jeremiah 10:14
Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

Micah 5:13
Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.

Habakkuk 2:18
What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

While YOU say that you do NOT worship the image, it IS the 'image' that you bow to and pray. Whether you try to talk around the issue, it IS the image to which you bow and pray. While most others, (outside of the Catholic Church), have NO NEED for 'idols' to bow to, you insist that the idol REPRESENTS something that you pray to instead of the IDOL. But it IS the IDOL that you bow to regardless of you philosophical explanation. And the more you attempt to explain, the more you reveal that you DO exactly what I have accused. You simply use different words to describe it.

Blessings,

MEC

Again, every one of those references to graven images is the word Pecel, which means Idol, not image.

And since you obviously practice the act of mind reading, I will leave the rest of my argument for you to figure out for yourself.

To make it real obvious for you.

Do not tell me why I do what I do or what I believe. I happen to know my beliefs better than you know them. Do not respond to this message, as it is the last time I will be conversing with you.

1509 · Oct 29, 2012

sculleywr said:
Translation: What I don't understand or feel comfortable with, I will translate as sin without Scriptural proof.

The Jews bowed to the bronze serpent at the command of God. Was that also idolatry?[\quote]

No, they looked.

Men in the book of II Samuel and I Chronicles bowed before David. Was that idolatry?

Click to expand...

Ok you got me I would half to add that it depends on what's in the heart, like trusting for help in objects or dead humans instead of Christ alone would be the sin of Idolotry.

Men were constantly bowing before angels, and while the angels told them not to fear, they were not even implied to be worshiping.

Click to expand...

The angels told them not to worship them, and said they were servants.

I'll be back in about an hour.

sculleywr · Oct 29, 2012

deleted

What is a 'graven image' and why are we NOT to create them?

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