Preterism and Its Origins

I think that's a very good treatment of Ezekiel, Ebed. It has always seemed the most sensible to see these prophecies in light of what happened in post-exilic years, and then see if anything extends out past that.

All through Israel's Scriptures, there is rarely a 'skip' feature to the far distance. What does matter is the next generations. The prophets wrote this way, ie, realizing the vastness of the losses of captivity, they wrote about an age just past that. This would give hope. But even then (assuming Haggai is the last) the theme that the restoration was falling short of prophetic visions was already being expressed (ch 2).

I'm not sure, though, how directly Eph 2 speaks to this. Maybe Ebed can elaborate?

What I would need to see about a future land of Israel is an answer to 2 questions about Hebrews. 1, why is the realization of the land in the past subdued and displaced by the fulfillment that is in Jesus Christ and his accomplishment--ch. 11? And more important, why isn't there anything about its future in Hebrews--in Hebrews of all places?

--Inter

Interplanner said:

I think that's a very good treatment of Ezekiel, Ebed. It has always seemed the most sensible to see these prophecies in light of what happened in post-exilic years, and then see if anything extends out past that.

All through Israel's Scriptures, there is rarely a 'skip' feature to the far distance. What does matter is the next generations. The prophets wrote this way, ie, realizing the vastness of the losses of captivity, they wrote about an age just past that. This would give hope. But even then (assuming Haggai is the last) the theme that the restoration was falling short of prophetic visions was already being expressed (ch 2).

I'm not sure, though, how directly Eph 2 speaks to this. Maybe Ebed can elaborate?

What I would need to see about a future land of Israel is an answer to 2 questions about Hebrews. 1, why is the realization of the land in the past subdued and displaced by the fulfillment that is in Jesus Christ and his accomplishment--ch. 11? And more important, why isn't there anything about its future in Hebrews--in Hebrews
of all places?

--Inter

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Hebrews 4:1-8 Future Rest

Interplanner said:

I think that's a very good treatment of Ezekiel, Ebed. It has always seemed the most sensible to see these prophecies in light of what happened in post-exilic years, and then see if anything extends out past that.

All through Israel's Scriptures, there is rarely a 'skip' feature to the far distance. What does matter is the next generations. The prophets wrote this way, ie, realizing the vastness of the losses of captivity, they wrote about an age just past that. This would give hope. But even then (assuming Haggai is the last) the theme that the restoration was falling short of prophetic visions was already being expressed (ch 2).

I'm not sure, though, how directly Eph 2 speaks to this. Maybe Ebed can elaborate?

What I would need to see about a future land of Israel is an answer to 2 questions about Hebrews. 1, why is the realization of the land in the past subdued and displaced by the fulfillment that is in Jesus Christ and his accomplishment--ch. 11? And more important, why isn't there anything about its future in Hebrews--in Hebrews of all places?

--Inter

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That was in response to Ezekiel 44 where the wall of separation in the Temple is spoken of. That wall is broken down by Christ atonement...which Ephesian 2 speaks of.

As to Hebrews...it is speaking to Hebrew Christians where the effort is to show how Christ fulfills so much of the Old Covenant:

*He is the Sabbath rest - Heb 4

*He is Melchizedek - Heb 7

*He is the Tabernacle and it's furnishings - Heb 8. 9

*He is superior to all sacrifices - Heb 10

*He is the faith of the OT Saints - Heb 11

No need for land the if they have entered into His rest!

ebedmelech said:

Rather that create a long reply, I will deal with these first three passages and we can go from there. Long replies tend to lose others reading the thread.



Israel is in captivity here...and you have to be careful with his prophecy as he is talking about future restoration from captivity. This is clearly the restoration from captivity. We know this from the opening 3 verses:
Ezekiel 1-3:
“And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, ‘O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord.
2 Thus says the Lord God, “Because the enemy has spoken against you, ‘Aha!’ and, ‘The everlasting heights have become our possession,’
3 therefore prophesy and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “For good reason they have made you desolate and crushed you from every side, that you would become a possession of the rest of the nations and you have been taken up in the talk and the whispering of the people.”

This entire chapter is about restoration from captivity...not the end. Here are other verses that prove this:
Ezekiel 36:16-18:
16 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying,
17 “Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.
18 Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols.

36:22:
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.

36:36, 37:
36 Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the Lord, have spoken and will do it.”
37 ‘Thus says the Lord God, “This also I will let the house of Israel ask Me to do for them: I will increase their men like a flock.
38 Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so will the waste cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

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This is typical of the distortion required to justify every system of interpretation that denies a future restoration of Israel. There is no way to even pretend that absolutely all of the house of Israel has ever returned to the piece of real estate described in this prophecy. But verse 10, which I quoted says exactly that.

"I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt." (Ezekiel 36:10)

This is why I selected this particular passage from all those that could be cited. Because it explicitly says that absolutely all of "the house of Israel" will again inhabit that land.

Many want to make this about the New Covenant, and yet God doesn't speak of a New Covenant and NOTHING is "everlasting" as in the end. If you see anything everlasting, show it to me. Israel will be back in their land, restore and holding the appointed Feasts.



This begins in Ezekiel 40. It is the restoration of the Temple and it is CONDITIONAL upon Israel being faithful to the Lord when He brings them back into the land.

Ezekiel 43:9-12 makes this very clear:
9 Now let them put away their harlotry and the corpses of their kings far from Me; and I will dwell among them forever.
10 “As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
11 If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.
12 This is the law of the house: its entire area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

This was ALL conditional upon Israel being faithful and they were not. More than that, one can tell this is not an "end times future building of the Temple" as we see the laws separating the Gentiles is still in effect in chapter 44.

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Obedience was commanded because of this coming time. But there is not even a part of a sentence in this prophecy that says, or even hints, that this will not be fulfilled if they do not obey.

But aside from that, you are forgetting the other promises I cited, which clearly state that there will finally come a day in which all Israel will finally repent and will indeed obey as they should.

That would violate Ephesians 2:14-16 where the middle wall of separation is broken down:
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

This is the restoration to the land that occurred under Ezra and Nehemiah.

If one reads Ezekiel 40-48...it's very easy to see. This is not future, it is all the past and occurred before Jesus even came.

This doesn't make your case at all!!!

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There is absolutely no way to even pretend that in any time after the return from captivity, Israel had the borders specified in Ezekiel 47:15-20. Nor is there any way to even pretend that the entire twelve tribes returned, or that the land was ever divided according to the arrangement specified in Ezekiel 48:1-28.

That is why I selected this definition of the future borders. It simply did not happen, even as the divisions specified in chapter 48 never happened. And all attempts to pretend that the ancient return is the time spoken of are simply futile.

Biblewriter said:

This is typical of the distortion required to justify every system of interpretation that denies a future restoration of Israel. There is no way to even pretend that absolutely all of the house of Israel has ever returned to the piece of real estate described in this prophecy. But verse 10, which I quoted says exactly that.

"I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt." (Ezekiel 36:10)

This is why I selected this particular passage from all those that could be cited. Because it explicitly says that absolutely all of "the house of Israel" will again inhabit that land.

Obedience was commanded because of this coming time. But there is not even a part of a sentence in this prophecy that says, or even hints, that this will not be fulfilled if they do not obey.

But aside from that, you are forgetting the other promises I cited, which clearly state that there will finally come a day in which all Israel will finally repent and will indeed obey as they should.

There is absolutely no way to even pretend that in any time after the return from captivity, Israel had the borders specified in Ezekiel 47:15-20. Nor is there any way to even pretend that the entire twelve tribes returned, or that the land was ever divided according to the arrangement specified in Ezekiel 48:1-28.

That is why I selected this definition of the future borders. It simply did not happen, even as the divisions specified in chapter 48 never happened. And all attempts to pretend that the ancient return is the time spoken of are simply futile.

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Let's do first things first Biblewriter. You pull one verse of 36 and try to make a point of the whole passage???

I dealt with 36 and pointed out some things in 43 and 44. Here you go jumping to 48???

Deal with what I dealt with that is not future. Did I mention anything in Ezekiel 48?

How can anyone think a map like in 48 every existed??? When we get to 48 we can speak to that.

Address what I addressed first.

Also it is obvious you didn't read what I said in my reply this was the first thing I said:

ebedmelech said:

Rather that create a long reply, I will deal with these first three passages and we can go from there. Long replies tend to lose others reading the thread.

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So obviously I didn't deal with all of what you said. I told you I wouldn't.

ebedmelech said:

Let's do first things first Biblewriter. You pull one verse of 36 and try to make a point of the whole passage???

I dealt with 36 and pointed out some things in 43 and 44. Here you go jumping to 48???

Deal with what I dealt with that is not future. Did I mention anything in Ezekiel 48?

How can anyone think a map like in 48 every existed??? When we get to 48 we can speak to that.

Address what I addressed first.

Also it is obvious you didn't read what I said in my reply this was the first thing I said:


So obviously I didn't deal with all of what you said. I told you I wouldn't.

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My point was, and remains, that verse 10 conclusively proves that this chapter deals with the future.

I also dealt with your comments on 43 and 44. You claim that these make all this conditional, and I pointed out that this is incorrect. I pointed out that they are exhorted to repent because all this is going to happen. But then I pointed out that this does not say, or even imply, that these things will only happen if they repent. But then I also pointed out that other scriptures clearly say that there is coming a day in which they will repent.

So I did indeed deal with your comments. And my point about the map details in 47 and 48 was that they never existed. In arguing that they never existed, you are making my point. If God said these conditions will exist, and they have never existed, then we know they will exist in the future.

So you are the one who is not reading what was posted.

Biblewriter said:

My point was, and remains, that verse 10 conclusively proves that this chapter deals with the future.

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No it doesn't. That's only if you ignore verses 1-3...which you're obviously doing.

Look at verses 8, 9:
8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come.
9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you will be cultivated and sown.

God is saying He will multiply them and He says he will do it "soon". Now who's doing faulty exegesis?

Furthermore vs 10 simply affirms much life was lost in the exile, many men were killed and the need to increase in population was needed.

Have you ever read Jeremiah 34? That chapter is the captivity. He gives a graphic picture of what happened in the captivity. I know this because I do my yearly bible reading using the site http://www.oneyearbibleonline.com" and I'm reading Jeremiah now.

Look at Jeremiah 34:18-22
18 I will give the men who have transgressed My covenant, who have not fulfilled the words of the covenant which they made before Me, when they cut the calf in two and passed between its parts—
19 the officials of Judah and the officials of Jerusalem, the court officers and the priests and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf—
20 I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life. And their dead bodies will be food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth.
21 Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials I will give into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life, and into the hand of the army of the king of Babylon which has gone away from you.
22 Behold, I am going to command,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will bring them back to this city; and they will fight against it and take it and burn it with fire; and I will make the cities of Judah a desolation without inhabitant.’”

Now that literally happened! This is why God says what He says in Ezekiel 36:10...many men were killed! You still think that is future?

Biblewriter said:

I also dealt with your comments on 43 and 44. You claim that these make all this conditional, and I pointed out that this is incorrect. I pointed out that they are exhorted to repent because all this is going to happen. But then I pointed out that this does not say, or even imply, that these things will only happen if they repent. But then I also pointed out that other scriptures clearly say that there is coming a day in which they will repent.

So I did indeed deal with your comments. And my point about the map details in 47 and 48 was that they never existed. In arguing that they never existed, you are making my point. If God said these conditions will exist, and they have never existed, then we know they will exist in the future.

So you are the one who is not reading what was posted.

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First you have to assertain and make a difference as to the prophecy.

*If it is a vision, right away you have to pay attention to the vision and the words, symbols, and imagery used.

*If it is straight prophetic utterance you only need look to what is said and correlate it to what is written.

Chapter 36 is NOT as vision! It is a straight out prophecy.

This is where I have to point out my own mistake in my reply concerning Ezekiel 40 - 48. I ignored the fact that this is a vision.

It's very clear it's a vision in Ezekiel 40:2:
2 In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.

I missed/ignored that and I admit it.

So now that it's a vision there's no way in the world to figure this literally because now Ezekiel is using the words "like a city". Knowing it is "like" a city, we can't say it IS a city because it is a "likeness". We already have to look at this differently and pay attention to the "likenesses" throughtout the prophecy because if something is "like" something that means it's not what he sees but it is "like" what he sees.

Also you brought up Ezekiel 48 so I'll say this about that...

There is NO WAY this is literal and you can immediately tell it's not because every measurement is a perfect "thousand" or ends up adding to a perfect "thousand".

This is where we will definitely will differ because you ignore the meaning of perfect "thousands" in prophetic vision this will not be a literal land because if it is it would look like this:



Do you really think that's what it means?

This reminds me a bit of when people quote "all Israel will be saved" from Rom 11. The first thing I notice is that all of Israel will not be saved, by their own usage. They are quoting it because at some point in the future, they think all of Israel will be Christians. But that would mean a huge amount of Jews before that and outside of that time period would not be! They never 'get' this and I don't know why. I think it is the emotional use of the Bible, not the rational use of it.

--Inter

ebedmelech said:

No it doesn't. That's only if you ignore verses 1-3...which you're obviously doing.

Look at verses 8, 9:
8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come.
9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you will be cultivated and sown.

God is saying He will multiply them and He says he will do it "soon". Now who's doing faulty exegesis?

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You are the one doing faulty exegesis. I have already exposed the error of the "soon" argument. "A day is with the Lord as a thoudand years, and a thousand years as one day" is not just a general principle. It is God's answer to those who argue that prophecy has not been fulfilled. (2 peter 3:3-10)

Furthermore vs 10 simply affirms much life was lost in the exile, many men were killed and the need to increase in population was needed.

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Verse 10 explisitly says that absolutely all of "the house of israel" will again inhabit this piece of real estate. There is no way whatsoever to even pretend that every last Israelite has ever returned to that land. But God has explisitly said that this is exactly what will happen.

Have you ever read Jeremiah 34? That chapter is the captivity. He gives a graphic picture of what happened in the captivity. I know this because I do my yearly bible reading using the site http://www.oneyearbibleonline.com" and I'm reading Jeremiah now.

Look at Jeremiah 34:18-22
18 I will give the men who have transgressed My covenant, who have not fulfilled the words of the covenant which they made before Me, when they cut the calf in two and passed between its parts—
19 the officials of Judah and the officials of Jerusalem, the court officers and the priests and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf—
20 I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life. And their dead bodies will be food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth.
21 Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials I will give into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life, and into the hand of the army of the king of Babylon which has gone away from you.
22 Behold, I am going to command,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will bring them back to this city; and they will fight against it and take it and burn it with fire; and I will make the cities of Judah a desolation without inhabitant.’”

Now that literally happened! This is why God says what He says in Ezekiel 36:10...many men were killed! You still think that is future?

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No that has unquestionably happened. But the promise that they would return was only fulfilled by a small part of two tribes, not by "all the house of Israel, even all of it."

First you have to assertain and make a difference as to the prophecy.

*If it is a vision, right away you have to pay attention to the vision and the words, symbols, and imagery used.

*If it is straight prophetic utterance you only need look to what is said and correlate it to what is written.

Chapter 36 is NOT as vision! It is a straight out prophecy.

This is where I have to point out my own mistake in my reply concerning Ezekiel 40 - 48. I ignored the fact that this is a vision.

It's very clear it's a vision in Ezekiel 40:2:
2 In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.

I missed/ignored that and I admit it.

Click to expand...

In that case, you also missed the fact that the account changes from a vision to a "straight prophetic utterance," as you style it, at either 43:6 or 44:2, depending on how the last part of chapter 43 should be viewed.

So now that it's a vision there's no way in the world to figure this literally because now Ezekiel is using the words "like a city". Knowing it is "like" a city, we can't say it IS a city because it is a "likeness". We already have to look at this differently and pay attention to the "likenesses" throughtout the prophecy because if something is "like" something that means it's not what he sees but it is "like" what he sees.

Also you brought up Ezekiel 48 so I'll say this about that...

There is NO WAY this is literal and you can immediately tell it's not because every measurement is a perfect "thousand" or ends up adding to a perfect "thousand".

This is where we will definitely will differ because you ignore the meaning of perfect "thousands" in prophetic vision this will not be a literal land because if it is it would look like this:

Do you really think that's what it means?

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First, the measurements are even numbers because, an specifically because, they are specifications for a division that has not yet been made.

As to whether or not I really "think" that's what it means, I do not "think" it, I simply believe it. Why, because God said it. And He said it in clear, plain language. The borders of the land were first described with precision, then how it was to be divided. Somehow, your map maker ended up with the dedicated area extending outside the borders of the land. That is a problem with his conclusions about the measurements given, not with what God said.

Interplanner said:

This reminds me a bit of when people quote "all Israel will be saved" from Rom 11. The first thing I notice is that all of Israel will not be saved, by their own usage. They are quoting it because at some point in the future, they think all of Israel will be Christians. But that would mean a huge amount of Jews before that and outside of that time period would not be! They never 'get' this and I don't know why. I think it is the emotional use of the Bible, not the rational use of it.

--Inter

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"All Israel will be saved" does not mean that every Israelite that ever lived will be saved. It means that in a future day, every Israelite will be saved. We believe this because God explicitly said it, not only in Romans 11:26, but in numerous other places, including Ezekiel 36:10, which is now being discussed in this thread.

But although God has explicitly said this, He has also explicitly said how this will come about. This will happen only after God has first put them through the worst suffering any nation has ever had. This will bring many of them to repentance. Then, after many of them have repented, God has explicitly said that He will purge out from among them all the rebels. (Ezekiel 20:33-38) It is only after that, that all Israel will believe that Jesus is their true Messiah and repent with bitter weeping (Zechariah 12:11-14, Jeremiah 24:7, Zephaniah 3:11-12, Isaiah 4:3-4), so he can finally righteously fulfill his ancient promise to give them the land. (Ezekiel 36:1-38, Ezekiel 47:13-48:35)

Biblewriter said:

You are the one doing faulty exegesis. I have already exposed the error of the "soon" argument. "A day is with the Lord as a thoudand years, and a thousand years as one day" is not just a general principle. It is God's answer to those who argue that prophecy has not been fulfilled. (2 peter 3:3-10)

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That is Peter speaking of Gods timetable first off so that doesn't apply to Ezekiel in my view...Ezekiel is with the Lord.

Again you have ignored context...but it is obvious you want to hold to Jeremiah 36:10...so you bring in Peter (nevermind that Peter isn't speaking to Jeremiah 36:10).

Biblewriter said:

Verse 10 explisitly says that absolutely all of "the house of Israel" will again inhabit this piece of real estate. There is no way whatsoever to even pretend that every last Israelite has ever returned to that land. But God has explisitly said that this is exactly what will happen.

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That is because God is clearly speaking of those of the captivity...and not the end times.

Biblewriter said:

No that has unquestionably happened. But the promise that they would return was only fulfilled by a small part of two tribes, not by "all the house of Israel, even all of it."

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You are ignoring the context. God spoke to Israel and Judah through Jeremiah. It lines up with what God said to Ezekiel.
Jeremiah 33:5-9:
5 ‘While they are coming to fight with the Chaldeans and to fill them with the corpses of men whom I have slain in My anger and in My wrath, and I have hidden My face from this city because of all their wickedness:
6 Behold, I will bring to it health and healing, and I will heal them; and I will reveal to them an abundance of peace and truth.
7 I will restore the fortunes of Judah and the fortunes of Israel and will rebuild them as they were at first.
8 I will cleanse them from all their iniquity by which they have sinned against Me, and I will pardon all their iniquities by which they have sinned against Me and by which they have transgressed against Me.
9 It will be to Me a name of joy, praise and glory before all the nations of the earth which will hear of all the good that I do for them, and they will fear and tremble because of all the good and all the peace that I make for it.’

You notice Jeremiah speaks to Judah and Israel? One can know this is only the restoration from exile because Jeremiah goes on to prophecy the coming days of Messiah in Jerrmiah 33:14-18 which was even more future than the restoration from exile:
14 ‘Behold, days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good word which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
15 In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.
16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the Lord is our righteousness.’
17 For thus says the Lord, ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.’”

So again you ignore the context as well as not comparing scripture with scripture.

Biblewriter said:

In that case, you also missed the fact that the account changes from a vision to a "straight prophetic utterance," as you style it, at either 43:6 or 44:2, depending on how the last part of chapter 43 should be viewed.

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No. It never does! God takes Ezekiel form one vision to the next go back and see...but these verses should make it clear because this is "the man with the measuring rod" who is leading Ezekiel in the vision;

Ezekiel 40:2:
2 In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.
3 So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.

He is still leading Ezekiel in the vision in 43:6:
6Then he went to the gate which faced east, went up its steps and measured the threshold of the gate, one rod in width; and the other threshold was one rod in width.

He is still leading Ezekiel in 44:2
Then He brought me back by the way of the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces the east; and it was shut.

This is all a vision and the man Ezekiel saw in 40:3 is leading him through the vision

Biblewriter said:

First, the measurements are even numbers because, an specifically because, they are specifications for a division that has not yet been made.

As to whether or not I really "think" that's what it means, I do not "think" it, I simply believe it. Why, because God said it. And He said it in clear, plain language. The borders of the land were first described with precision, then how it was to be divided. Somehow, your map maker ended up with the dedicated area extending outside the borders of the land. That is a problem with his conclusions about the measurements given, not with what God said.

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No...Ezekiel is again in a vision and it never stops. There are other things that are clear too, but you need to believe a vision is reality or your future temple falls apart. When one makes a vision real...that's bad exegesis brother and one has to *think* about what the prophet is saying. One has to think to rightly divide the Word.

Even my position that I hold to, I continually evaluate.

ebedmelech said:

That is Peter speaking of Gods timetable first off so that doesn't apply to Ezekiel in my view...Ezekiel is with the Lord.

Again you have ignored context...but it is obvious you want to hold to Jeremiah 36:10...so you bring in Peter (nevermind that Peter isn't speaking to Jeremiah 36:10).


That is because God is clearly speaking of those of the captivity...and not the end times.



You are ignoring the context. God spoke to Israel and Judah through Jeremiah. It lines up with what God said to Ezekiel.
Jeremiah 33:5-9:
5 ‘While they are coming to fight with the Chaldeans and to fill them with the corpses of men whom I have slain in My anger and in My wrath, and I have hidden My face from this city because of all their wickedness:
6 Behold, I will bring to it health and healing, and I will heal them; and I will reveal to them an abundance of peace and truth.
7 I will restore the fortunes of Judah and the fortunes of Israel and will rebuild them as they were at first.
8 I will cleanse them from all their iniquity by which they have sinned against Me, and I will pardon all their iniquities by which they have sinned against Me and by which they have transgressed against Me.
9 It will be to Me a name of joy, praise and glory before all the nations of the earth which will hear of all the good that I do for them, and they will fear and tremble because of all the good and all the peace that I make for it.’

You notice Jeremiah speaks to Judah and Israel? One can know this is only the restoration from exile because Jeremiah goes on to prophecy the coming days of Messiah in Jerrmiah 33:14-18 which was even more future than the restoration from exile:
14 ‘Behold, days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good word which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
15 In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.
16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the Lord is our righteousness.’
17 For thus says the Lord, ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.’”

So again you ignore the context as well as not comparing scripture with scripture.


No. It never does! God takes Ezekiel form one vision to the next go back and see...but these verses should make it clear because this is "the man with the measuring rod" who is leading Ezekiel in the vision;

Ezekiel 40:2:
2 In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.
3 So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.

He is still leading Ezekiel in the vision in 43:6:
6Then he went to the gate which faced east, went up its steps and measured the threshold of the gate, one rod in width; and the other threshold was one rod in width.

He is still leading Ezekiel in 44:2
Then He brought me back by the way of the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces the east; and it was shut.

This is all a vision and the man Ezekiel saw in 40:3 is leading him through the vision


No...Ezekiel is again in a vision and it never stops. There are other things that are clear too, but you need to believe a vision is reality or your future temple falls apart. When one makes a vision real...that's bad exegesis brother and one has to *think* about what the prophet is saying. One has to think to rightly divide the Word.

Even my position that I hold to, I continually evaluate.

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I did not answer the individual passages you quoted because, without even one exception, every passage that you claimed was about the ancient return from captivity was purely a matter of interpretation. And in making these interpretations, you neglected the fact that only a few of the specific details contained in these prophecies were fulfilled at that time.

The claim about what Peter was talking about misses the point. It was not what Peter said, but what God said, speaking through peter. And it was God's answer to complaints about apparent failures to have kept prophetic promises. God's answer (not Peter's answer) was that He operates on an entirely different time scale that the one we use. This is why all the objections based on comments like the usage of the words "soon" and "shortly" are simply invalid.

I recognized that the last part of Ezekiel 43 could be interpreted as still part of the vision. But from 44:2 to end of the book, every statement is a simple declarative. This is indisputable.

Biblewriter said:

I did not answer the individual passages you quoted because, without even one exception, every passage that you claimed was about the ancient return from captivity was purely a matter of interpretation. And in making these interpretations, you neglected the fact that only a few of the specific details contained in these prophecies were fulfilled at that time.

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Well brother, it does come down to interpretation...and if one allows the scriptures to do the interpreting they can get it right. That's not to say there aren't difficult passages...but in this case I don't think it's difficult at all.

It's a matter coming to the passage and letting it speak...apart from any preconceived ideas we may have about the passage.

Biblewriter said:

The claim about what Peter was talking about misses the point. It was not what Peter said, but what God said, speaking through peter. And it was God's answer to complaints about apparent failures to have kept prophetic promises. God's answer (not Peter's answer) was that He operates on an entirely different time scale that the one we use. This is why all the objections based on comments like the usage of the words "soon" and "shortly" are simply invalid.

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It's a little more than that. It was Peter speaking to those of his day. That isn't spoken in Ezekiel or Jeremiah because those to prophets spoke to those in their time. I believe the context is clear.Obviously you don't.

Biblewriter said:

I recognized that the last part of Ezekiel 43 could be interpreted as still part of the vision. But from 44:2 to end of the book, every statement is a simple declarative. This is indisputable.

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It is undeniable that it is part of the vision because you cannot find a point at which the vision ends. If you do...I'd like to know where that is.

My point brother, is that you stated those who hold to a form of preterism have no basis for that. Our debate has already shown, they absolutely have a basis. You just don't think it's correct.

I continue to search the scriptures, and I'm sure you will too.

ebedmelech said:

Well brother, it does come down to interpretation...and if one allows the scriptures to do the interpreting they can get it right. That's not to say there aren't difficult passages...but in this case I don't think it's difficult at all.

It's a matter coming to the passage and letting it speak...apart from any preconceived ideas we may have about the passage...

My point brother, is that you stated those who hold to a form of preterism have no basis for that. Our debate has already shown, they absolutely have a basis. You just don't think it's correct.

I continue to search the scriptures, and I'm sure you will too.

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And the only thing you have to do to find that basis us exactly what you accuse us of doing. Approach the scriptures with a pre-conceived notion and look for ways to prove it.

Over and out.

So Biblewriter, why is this so important to you? Does the Bible 'fall apart' without Ezek 40+ being future to us? Arent' there actually a ton of other places that are fulfilled in Christ so amazingly that it dwarfs this? Aren't there other perfectly functioning reasons for not being anti-semitic?

and please answer why Heb 11 diminishes not only the post-exilic fulfillment (by not mentioning it) but even the ancient Abrahamic fulfillment by saying it was not what the promise was about anyway! "None of them recieved what was promised. God planned something better... The Christian people have come to Heb 12:22+ a kingdom that cannot be shaken.

--Inter

Biblewriter said:

And the only thing you have to do to find that basis us exactly what you accuse us of doing. Approach the scriptures with a pre-conceived notion and look for ways to prove it.

Over and out.

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Actually no. I do expect you to see it that way though. That clearly shows when you pull one verse from Ezekiel 36 (36:10), and I look at the whole chapter, as well as those who also prophesied in that day like Jeremiah.

The difference is I was taught the futurist position before I even knew of preterism. I was looking at the scriptures that they said taught their position and saw the problems with it.

I don't agree with all of preterism...no view is without it's problems but the futurist view has many problems...especially with Revelation.

Tired of another theology term that is only found in heady debate? Come over to 'origins of Christocentric theology' thread

Jesus defined what He was teaching, that Matthew recorded in chapter 24 and 25, in the light of Daniel the prophet.

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand)...

Daniel 9:26-27

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

It is clear from Daniel that the destruction of the city and sanctuary was not the end, for Daniel goes on to write about the remaining 70th week.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

Daniel writes that in the middle of the week, [3 1/2 years], the prince who is to come will put an end to sacrifice and offering, which means sacrifice and offerings will have commence again sometime after the city and sanctuary are destroyed.

In Matthew 24 and 25, Jesus teaches of the signs that lead up to His coming and the end of the age, of which verse 15 address's Daniel 9:27, which is clearly referring to a time after the city and sanctuary are destroyed.

Once you understand this simple truth, you will not be confused any longer with trying to force the time frame of the destruction of the city and sanctuary of 70 AD with the Coming of the Lord and the end of the age!

JLB

There is a little problem, JLB. I have 3 translations (I read Greek but not Hebrew) and none emphasize a "Then" to start v27, which means a reader must allow for an ongoing sketch or description. An overlay. Many, many readers line up 3 things as one event:

Messiah is cut off, not for himself
He will confirm a covenant
He will put an end to sacrifice and offering

Ie, all of these are meant in a positive (Christian) sense, and all occurred in the Gospel.

One detracting point is that 'confirm' may rather have the meaning of 'to make a harsh covenant' (harsh terms) which has a very interesting reminder of the harshness of the Judaism that resulted in the inflamed conflict with Rome.

But I think this is unlikely because the person who confirms is still Messiah, and only in 27c do we hear about the destructive figure.

There is nothing clear to me that Mt 24's quote of Dan 9 is after the list of other events happening in the calamity of Jerusalem 66+. He's still addressing the same potentially-victim people and warning them. What do you think makes a clear jump thousands of years later.

It's one thing to say the whole message is thousands later, but to cut right in the middle is even worse in terms of coherence.

Once again, all are invited to discuss Christocentric theology instead of Preterism. Over at another thread.

--Inter

JLB777 said:

Jesus defined what He was teaching, that Matthew recorded in chapter 24 and 25, in the light of Daniel the prophet.

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand)...

Daniel 9:26-27

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

It is clear from Daniel that the destruction of the city and sanctuary was not the end, for Daniel goes on to write about the remaining 70th week.

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Who says it is the end?

JLB777 said:

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

Daniel writes that in the middle of the week, [3 1/2 years], the prince who is to come will put an end to sacrifice and offering, which means sacrifice and offerings will have commence again sometime after the city and sanctuary are destroyed.

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Yes...BUT the "He" that confirms the covenant is Jesus! It's his death after His 3.5 year ministry that puts the end to sacrifice and offering. It was Jesus who said "This cup is the New Covenant in my blood! Jesus confirmed the covenant!

It's you who thinks the 70th week started at the "Triumphal Entry". However Peter says in Acts 10:38, that God anointed Jesus at His baptism with the Holy Spirit and with power. That's where the 70th week starts.
Acts 10:38;
38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

JLB777 said:

In Matthew 24 and 25, Jesus teaches of the signs that lead up to His coming and the end of the age, of which verse 15 address's Daniel 9:27, which is clearly referring to a time after the city and sanctuary are destroyed.

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Matthew 24:30, 31:
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Either that is the gathering of all believers through the preaching of the gospel OR...it is the FIRST resurrection of tribulation saints in Rev 20:5. Notice that Jesus sends His angels to Gather the elect. This is very different from Matthew 25:31 Where the order is reversed, Jesus comes WITH His angels and this is the END because He separates the sheep from the goats.
Matthew 25:31-31:
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. That's the end!

JLB777 said:

Once you understand this simple truth, you will not be confused any longer with trying to force the time frame of the destruction of the city and sanctuary of 70 AD with the Coming of the Lord and the end of the age!

JLB

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That's right brother! So I think you should take another look, because what you're saying doesn't agree with the Word.

This is what I'm saying;

*Jesus coming in 70 A.D. was a coming in Judgment on Jerusalem that was also the tribulation.

*There was a First resurrection at that time.

*Jesus will come again and that will be the 2nd resurrection where He separates the sheep from the goats.

I know I have things to look at too...so I'm still studying. If I find I'm wrong, I will change gladly because I study to show myself approved unto God!