Living by Faith--Is it for today?

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Water Walker

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So why do we keep pretending that ever word of the Old Testament is equal to the teachings of Jesus?

Jesus and Paul sure knew what they were talking about when they said that the builders would push aside the Chief Cornerstone. You only have to read this thread to see it.

Wow you make very wide and sweeping statements about what myself and what others are saying. I will not waste time quoting etc.

I will address the above statement. I try in my posts to give a bit of both OT and NT and it looks like you forget Jesus is God and God is unchanging as we know from scripture. The God of the OT is still the God of the NT and the moral, ethics, thoughts, lessons, etc still apply to us today. You are right we are not under the law but Christ came to fulfill the law not do away with it. OT scripture in the proper context can still apply to us today as much as Jesus' teachings apply to us today. John puts it into perspective below:

1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent His One and Only Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 Love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Dear friends, if God loved us in this way, we also must love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God. If we love one another, God remains in us and His love is perfected in us.

13 This is how we know that we remain in Him and He in us: He has given assurance to us from His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and we testify that the Father has sent His Son as the world’s Savior. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God—God remains in him and he in God. 16 And we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.

17 In this, love is perfected with us so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment, for we are as He is in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; instead, perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. So the one who fears has not reached perfection in love. 19 We love because He first loved us.


Time for a musical interlude:

"Don't Have Love" (Official Music Video) - Christian singer Holly Starr: New Christian Music Video - YouTube
 
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Luke1433

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I must say that I am impressed. Ebed actually posted the passages in question, i.e. at least some of the teachings of Jesus about money.

Here is what he said:

Matthew 6:19:21:
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6:24:
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Matthew 6:31-33
31 Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’
32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Luke 12:15:
15 Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed.


It's also particularly encouraging to note that Ebed has said that these passages are "balanced" in themselves. I assume that means that we don't have to alter them to make them conform with something else in the Bible.

So are we all agreed that we should not be saving up wealth here on earth? And are we all agreed that we cannot work for two masters at the same time, i.e. for both God and money, without "despising" one or the other by doing so? And are we all agreed that the world (i.e. Gentiles) worries about providing for their material needs, whereas we who have put our faith in Christ are to spend our time building God's kingdom and letting God take care of our material needs?

If only we could be so united against every form of greed!
 
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Luke1433

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I wrote: "Why do we keep pretending that every word of the Old Testament is equal to the teachings of Jesus?"

Water Walker replied: "Wow you make very wide and sweeping statements about what myself and what others are saying."

Sorry, Water, if I have misunderstood you (or anyone else here). Are you saying that some of the Old Testament is NOT equal to the teachings of Jesus? I must have missed that. Please do re-state it, if that is your position, and perhaps give us some guidelines as to which parts of the O.T. ARE equal to the teachings of Jesus, and which are not.

Because it does seem like this issue of the Old Testament comes up quite a bit whenever Candle Glow or I try to say something in defence of what Jesus taught, and the effect of it is to basically strike out what Jesus said.

I guess you would say that in the post above you have answered my questions about this. Would that be right?

You said, "OT scripture in the proper context can still apply to us today as much as Jesus' teachings apply to us today."

Saying that it "can still apply to us today" seems to suggest that at times or in certain places, it may NOT apply to us today too. Is that right? How do we know the difference?

Maybe the key words here are "proper context". I read that Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. I read that his teachings are the Cornerstone on which a wise person will build. From that, I get that his teachings are the "context" and if anything does not conform with and support his teachings, then it is thje OTHER passage that is being taken out of the eternal infallible context of Jesus' teachings.

I read that Jesus predicted that people would de-value his teachings in some way, so that they would become of no effect. All of that seems consistent with this loophole where we say that we can use OT scripture to more or less cancel out what Jesus has said.

There have, for example, been comments on this thread about Abraham, Solomon, and Job being rich, as though that cancels out what Jesus said about NOT being rich. So how many wives did Abraham and Solomon have? Is polygamy for today too? If not, why not?

I still feel that "proper context" means basically, "as it suits me", or "according to religious tradition", for it certainly is well -established religious tradition NOT to take Jesus seriously on much of anything, but especially with regard to his teachings about our attitude toward wealth.
 
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ebedmelech

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I must say that I am impressed. Ebed actually posted the passages in question, i.e. at least some of the teachings of Jesus about money.

Here is what he said:

Matthew 6:19:21:
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6:24:
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Matthew 6:31-33
31 Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’
32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Luke 12:15:
15 Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed.


It's also particularly encouraging to note that Ebed has said that these passages are "balanced" in themselves. I assume that means that we don't have to alter them to make them conform with something else in the Bible.

So are we all agreed that we should not be saving up wealth here on earth? And are we all agreed that we cannot work for two masters at the same time, i.e. for both God and money, without "despising" one or the other by doing so? And are we all agreed that the world (i.e. Gentiles) worries about providing for their material needs, whereas we who have put our faith in Christ are to spend our time building God's kingdom and letting God take care of our material needs?

If only we could be so united against every form of greed!
I would say no...we are not agreed. That is not at all what Jesus is saying.

When I say the passages are balanced, what I mean is the keep one centered on not putting their heart on money, as well as being wise with what money they have.

Think about what you are saying. Christians are individuals and therefore their needs vary. Case in point:

Here are 3 different Christians with varying needs:

* One is a single Christian

* One is a married Christian with 6 kids

* One is a married Christian with 2 kids

The single Christian has only his/her needs to tend to and is more free with his/her money but they still need to be wise.

The married with 6 kids, has to be more mindful of investing money, they have 6 children to provide for and whatever job that husband has he has to plan to have provision for his children's future.

The Married with 2 kids must do the same, however has only two children to care for but the need to invest money for the future *may* not be as critical as the Married with 6.

God provides for all differently...but what he provides for them He expects them to be wise with. This would be where Proverbs 21:5 comes into play:

5 The plans of the diligent lead surely to advantage, But everyone who is hasty comes surely to poverty.


These are the type principles God has given us and they are undeniable.

This is why you cannot make a statement that one cannot save money God has given us. Proverbs is teaching us to be wise with money. Consider Proverbs 6:6-11

6 Go to the ant, O sluggard, Observe her ways and be wise,
7 Which, having no chief, Officer or ruler,
8 Prepares her food in the summer And gathers her provision in the harvest.
9 How long will you lie down, O sluggard?
When will you arise from your sleep?
10 “A little sleep, a little slumber,
A little folding of the hands to rest”—
11 Your poverty will come in like a vagabond
And your need like an armed man.


This Proverb is teaching the laying up in store for the future! It is a principle.

You simply cannot assert that we are to ignore saving money because God provides for us to be wise and be prepared for future.

It is presumptive if I don't save money that God has given me to have money available for things that may occur like a bad economy...it flies against Gods word.

Consider what the Parable of The Talents Jesus gave teaches:
Matthew 25:14:29
14 “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
15 To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’
21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’
22 “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’
23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’
24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’
26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’
29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Now Jesus expects a return on the talents He gives us. Does this not teach investing on what God gives us? That just as true with money as it is with the salvation God gives us. He gave us salvation and expects us to in turn share the gospel to increase His kingdom. This is also true with what God gives us monetarily we are to be wise with it and save for future needs...however we are not to hoard what he gives us to the point that we trust in our money and not our God.

How can you not see that?
 
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Luke1433

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This is an interesting situation. I posted the exact same verses that Ebed posted, and I expressed appreciation that we both accept that what Jesus was saying in those verses is true AND "balanced". Here are the exact verses, for which Ebed even chose which translation to use:

Matthew 6:19:21:
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6:24:
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Matthew 6:31-33
31 Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’
32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Luke 12:15:
15 Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed.


Wonderful words from the Son of God, for our edification and salvation. Praise God.

But now Ebed has changed his position, for he now says:

"I would say no...we are not agreed. That is not at all what Jesus is saying."

And then Ebed sets about to tell us what Jesus SHOULD have said. (And, believe me, what he says bears no resemblance at all to what appears above. In fact, it is virtually the opposite of what appears above.)

It's probably just my opinion vs your opinion, Ebed (Sarcasm intended.) but I think I'm going to take my chance with the Son of God. Sorry if that offends you. (Gosh! I hope you can convince Jesus that your version is better when it comes time to face him on Judgment Day!)
 
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ebedmelech

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This is an interesting situation. I posted the exact same verses that Ebed posted, and I expressed appreciation that we both accept that what Jesus was saying in those verses is true AND "balanced". Here are the exact verses, for which Ebed even chose which translation to use:

Matthew 6:19:21:
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6:24:
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Matthew 6:31-33
31 Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’
32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Luke 12:15:
15 Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed.


Wonderful words from the Son of God, for our edification and salvation. Praise God.

But now Ebed has changed his position, for he now says:

"I would say no...we are not agreed. That is not at all what Jesus is saying."

And then Ebed sets about to tell us what Jesus SHOULD have said. (And, believe me, what he says bears no resemblance at all to what appears above. In fact, it is virtually the opposite of what appears above.)

It's probably just my opinion vs your opinion, Ebed (Sarcasm intended.) but I think I'm going to take my chance with the Son of God. Sorry if that offends you. (Gosh! I hope you can convince Jesus that your version is better when it comes time to face him on Judgment Day!)
This type of thinking happens when you don't want to acknowledge reasoning in what Jesus says.

There are key words in statements in each of passages Jesus speaks. Lets take each one:

Matthew 6:19:21:
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


When you examine what Jesus is saying if he's saying "don't save money"...he'll say that. However he didn't. He qualified everything by saying "for where YOUR treasure is, there YOUR HEART will be also. What is treasure...but abundance??? That is what Jesus is saying. The word for "treasure" is "thēsauros", it means literally "the place in which good and precious things are collected and laid up". Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

The clear teaching is if your heart is on "laying up in store for yourself on earth" that is what you will do having no concern for the things of God.

Matthew 6:24:
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.


Notice the careful choice of words again. Jesus says "you cannot serve God and wealth". Again he doesn't say "you cannot be wealthy and serve God" So the question is "who are you serving?" The word "serve" is "douleuō", which means "to be a slave, serve, do service". Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Matthew 6:31-33
31 Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’
32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.


This is quite easy...the question is does one worry about such things? If so, they will not be focused on God, but on their needs. However the one who goes about serving God doesn't have to worry because all those things will be added.

Luke 12:15:
15 Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed.


This too is easy...it's about GREED. So tell me...where does Jesus say to save money is greed??? Did he say guard against saving money?

Now...if you want to believe that God doesn't want you to save money for any reason...go ahead and do that. I read what Jesus says, but I also see what he doesn't say.

I believe God has laid out principles for me to use the money he provides me with to make it work that I can serve Him as well as meet the needs of my family. I have 6 grown children and 10 grandchildren and God continues to bless. I will continue to apply those principles. God has provided for me just fine. I don't have poverty, but neither do i have riches.

Early in my Christian life I came across this Proverb, and it is has been my prayer to God:

Proverbs 30:7-9:
7 Two things I asked of You, Do not refuse me before I die:
8 Keep deception and lies far from me, Give me neither poverty nor riches; Feed me with the food that is my portion,
9 That I not be full and deny You and say, “Who is the Lord?” Or that I not be in want and steal, And profane the name of my God.


God has honored that in my life, and continues to.

If you believe your line of thinking is the way you should live, by all means do that.:thumbsup:
 
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Luke1433

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Aha! The problem has been found. My bible just has these words printed in it in one colour (red in my Bible, but I'll have to settle for black here, since I don't know how to make them red).

Matthew 6:19:21:
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6:24:
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Matthew 6:31-33
31 Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’
32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Luke 12:15:
15 Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed.


So, of course, I just read the verses and believe them pretty much the way they are written. But apparently THAT is what Ebed calls "unbalanced".

What you need, according to Ebed, is a Bible with BLUE letters, so that you can click on the blue letters and get new interpretations fresh from the inspired mind of Ebed, with which to "balance" what Jesus has said. When Jesus says, "Don't lay up treasures on earth," the Ebed New Balance version says, "Saving up money is good, as long as you do (or don't?) have an abundance of it and as long as it is (or isn't?) in the place where valuable things are stored. Jesus says you can't serve God and money, but the EBed New Balance version says that working for money is okay because it's not like you are "doing service" for it. And Jesus says to be on guard against every kind of greed, whereas the Ebed New Balance version says that spending your life working for money is the kind of greed that God likes.

Seriously, Ebed, I'm sure that what you are doing does not impress God one little bit. It's popular. It fills collection plates. It sells like hotcakes. But in the end, it's just so much sand.
 
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candle glow

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*tags in*

The issue of obedience has been discussed in the context of Jesus' teachings on money and materialism.

Ebed tries valiantly to find some meaning in these teachings of Jesus, but I agree with luke that in the end, ebed's explanations pretty much take the meaning away from what is actually being said.

For example, lets say I have a child and, before leaving the house for the day, I tell him, " I don't want you to turn on the tv today because you've been watching too much recently. Just read a book today".

What do you think I mean? The child may reason, "hmmm, I think he means that I should not let TV become more important to me than reading books, and since I don't feel that way about TV, then it's okay to watch a bit, right?"

But, is that what I said? Of course not. I gave the child an order. Do not turn the TV on today.

This is similar to what Ebed is doing with Jesus' teachings. Jesus gives a command:
Matthew 6:19:21:
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

But, ebed doesn't think we need to follow the command. He's reasoned out what he thinks Jesus means by "do not store up for yourselves treasures on Earth..."

After a comparison of Jesus' command here, and Ebed's interpretation, one gets the impression that Ebed thinks a literal obedience to this teaching would be unreasonable.

Another interesting point about this particular verse is that, in another place, Jesus tells us HOW to get this treasure in heaven:
LK 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Some people like to argue that this particular circumstance (which is the story of a rich young ruler) is specific to the one person Jesus was talking to, i.e. that his instructions to that person are not meant for others, but notice the final command in this paragraph, "and come, follow me".

Obviously, Jesus was not telling only one person to follow him. This issue of forsaking materialism and helping the poor is what it means to follow Jesus.

The clear teaching is if your heart is on "laying up in store for yourself on earth" that is what you will do having no concern for the things of God.

Except, Jesus didn't use the word "heart". He just said treasure.

See, this thing about "in your heart" becomes a convenient doctrine, because it's so subjective; it can mean whatever you want it to mean.

The point of Jesus' commands is to overcome our tendency to "cheat" by pretending that our hearts are okay when they really may not be. In other words, we SHOW the condition of our heart by HOW we respond to Jesus' teachings.

This is why Jesus said, "why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? He knew there would be plenty of people who want the blessings and salvation associated with the kingdom of Heaven, but they would not want the disciplines that it takes to practice the values of that kingdom.

He said "those who obey me show that they love me, and those who love me show it by their obedience". (John 14:21 and 23)

Shadrach, Meshach, and abednego could have easily escaped the fiery furnace if they applied your reasoning, ebed, by bowing down to the statue while claiming that, in their hearts, they had not denied their faith.
 
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candle glow

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What you need, according to Ebed, is a Bible with BLUE letters, so that you can click on the blue letters and get new interpretations fresh from the inspired mind of Ebed, with which to "balance" what Jesus has said. When Jesus says, "Don't lay up treasures on earth," the Ebed New Balance version says, "Saving up money is good, as long as you do (or don't?) have an abundance of it and as long as it is (or isn't?) in the place where valuable things are stored. Jesus says you can't serve God and money, but the EBed New Balance version says that working for money is okay because it's not like you are "doing service" for it. And Jesus says to be on guard against every kind of greed, whereas the Ebed New Balance version says that spending your life working for money is the kind of greed that God likes.

lol "New Balance Version" :muahah:

Oh man that's priceless!
 
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candle glow

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Except, Jesus didn't use the word "heart". He just said treasure.

Oops, I just noticed that I made a mistake here with this comment. My mind was thinking about ebed's interpretation of what Jesus said about the heart.

Yeah, Jesus did say, "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also".

However, I think ebed's interpretation of "what's in the heart" is different from what Jesus said, because ebed is using this heart thing to excuse literal obedience, whereas Jesus was saying that we SHOW where our heart really is by our response to his teachings regarding materialism.
 
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ebedmelech

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Aha! The problem has been found. My bible just has these words printed in it in one colour (red in my Bible, but I'll have to settle for black here, since I don't know how to make them red).

Matthew 6:19:21:
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6:24:
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Matthew 6:31-33
31 Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’
32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Luke 12:15:
15 Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed.


So, of course, I just read the verses and believe them pretty much the way they are written. But apparently THAT is what Ebed calls "unbalanced".

What you need, according to Ebed, is a Bible with BLUE letters, so that you can click on the blue letters and get new interpretations fresh from the inspired mind of Ebed, with which to "balance" what Jesus has said. When Jesus says, "Don't lay up treasures on earth," the Ebed New Balance version says, "Saving up money is good, as long as you do (or don't?) have an abundance of it and as long as it is (or isn't?) in the place where valuable things are stored. Jesus says you can't serve God and money, but the EBed New Balance version says that working for money is okay because it's not like you are "doing service" for it. And Jesus says to be on guard against every kind of greed, whereas the Ebed New Balance version says that spending your life working for money is the kind of greed that God likes.

Seriously, Ebed, I'm sure that what you are doing does not impress God one little bit. It's popular. It fills collection plates. It sells like hotcakes. But in the end, it's just so much sand.
You know what...it's all good for me, because last I checked with God, He didn't tell me I had to check with you or Candle glow. :thumbsup:
 
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Luke1433

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I think we all need to be careful about over-stating things in areas where we disagree strongly.

But I agree that what Jesus was saying is that there is an objective way to measure the subjective argument that "Only God knows where my heart is." I think God has given us a fairly reasonable rule of thumb to tell us wherea person's heart is. If their wealth has all been given to feeding the poor, then it's a pretty good bet that their heart is in the right place. If their wealth is in their house, then that is where their heart is. If it's mostly in a bank account, then that's where their heart is.

What some people may be genuinely missing here is that we have only one life, and if we give roughly 40 hours a week for about 45 years to making money, then all God is ever going to get is leftovers. We can say all we like that we don't "worship" money, but we sure are spending a heck of a lot of time working for (or "serving") it. Just because we can get almost a unanimous vote from the average church saying, "Nah, you're okay. Working for money is okay. Don't worry about it." just about everyone saying that has, (IMO) at least a tiny doubt about whether or not that is going hold water with God.

On the other hand, if everyone in the church (or say, 99%, allowing for some exceptions if you like) STOPPED working for money and then made themselves available (again for about 40 hours a week and about 45 years out of their lives) to do good for others for free in the name of Jesus, can you see how it would literally turn the world upside down?

Of course, to do that, or even to think about doing that, we almost instinctively start to think, "But how would we survive?" And THAT is where the rubber meets the road in terms of faith... a la "living by faith". I have personally found that it DOES work, and it's not always so dramatic as manna in the wilderness.

It's like that movie "Field of Dreams", where the guy gets the message, "Build it and they will come." Well, in this case, it's "Do it (show love in practical ways) and it (financial support) will come." Not at the level most of us in the West are used to, but at the level of basic needs.

I had four kids when I first discovered this, and my first argument was that I needed to provide for my own family. But God more or less said to me, "Do you think I don't practice what I preach? Do you think I won't take care of my own family if you will start trusting and obeying me?" So I tried it (and was pretty clear in my own mind that I would toss it out as a delusion if God did NOT provide for my children at least food and clothing), and surprise! It worked. And it's still working today, some 40 years later.

Please, people, can we at least discuss this in theory (and the far-reaching ramifications if we took these teachings seriously), rather than just throwing them out at the first mention?
 
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Luke1433

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Ebed:
"You know what...it's all good for me, because last I checked with God, He didn't tell me I had to check with you or Candle glow."

You are so right, Ebed. You see, with me at least, all you need to do is check the verses I posted from my good Friend and Lord, Jesus. You don't need blue letters and footnotes because I don't have any. Of course you DO need to check with Jesus (unless you've found someone else who can give you eternal life).
 
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candle glow

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Of course, to do that, or even to think about doing that, we almost instinctively start to think, "But how would we survive?" And THAT is where the rubber meets the road in terms of faith... a la "living by faith". I have personally found that it DOES work, and it's not always so dramatic as manna in the wilderness.

hi luke, what an interesting idea. An intense analysis of the scriptures can be helpful at times, but a discussion about applying those teachings in theory can also be helpful.

I sometimes get into the mind frame that I'm dealing with enemies when it comes to people who try to change or manipulate Jesus' teachings about money, but that's not always the case.

Sometimes people come up with an interpretation which is much weaker than what Jesus actually said because they are afraid of what would happen if they did have to do it the way he said it. We are born into a world where money makes the world go round and we grow up in that world.

A couple of years ago I read a news paper article about how to teach children as young as 3 or 4 years old to start using money. When the parents want to buy something, at the grocery store, for example, the parents are encouraged to give the money to the child and let the child then hand the money over to the cashier.

All throughout our lives we are taught that without money we would die, so it can be incredibly painful or frightening for people to suddenly switch over to a totally new system where money is not the motivation for why we work.

I also hope that we can at least discuss the theory of what this world could be like if we did obey Jesus literally, as his commands appear.
 
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Luke1433

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To tell the truth, I'm always a bit nervous about sharing from personal experience around professing Christians, because some can be quite cruel about ridiculing it. Nevertheless, it's really exciting at times when I meet someone who is at least open to the possibility that God may really have been trying to get across something (through Jesus) that will revolutionise the church as well as our individual lives.
 
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candle glow

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A decade ago, a friend of mine and I were traveling around England and we happened upon a Christian movement called "greenbelt". It was a gathering of thousands of Christians who camped out for a week on a very large camp ground. I think there was well above 7 thousand people there.

The village was huge, complete with merchandise stalls, food stalls, medic stalls entertainment stalls and all kinds of other stalls.

Although we were on an extended outreach and did not deliberately plan to attend this festival, we happened upon it the first day of it's set up through a series of coincidences.

We wanted to "crash" this festival and do as much preaching about the teachings of Jesus as possible within that week; it looked so fun. So, we applied to be "stewards" and were accepted within a few hours of our applications (after a few brief orientation processes).

We were accepted. While there, we performed our duties as expected of us, but for the majority of the time we dedicated our efforts to preaching.

One of the concepts we came up with what the "what if" plan.

What if all the Christians at this event decided to forsake all and start working for love, sharing all in common as the early church in acts did?

We'd have millions of dollars to devote to outreach teams, literature publication, land allotment, housing, and all manner of various individual needs.

ALSO, we'd have plumbers, electricians, carpenters, doctors, welders, mechanics, teachers, lawyers, cooks, psychologists, architects, scientists, farmers, and all manner of other professions within such a large group of people.

If all these people decided to start helping one another out of love, as a genuine Christian community, rather than because they expected payment, it would be like meteor slamming into the earth.

Unfortunately, our message didn't seem to resonate with any of the Christians there at the time, though I prayed that God would use our message to inspire people even if we did not see any of the fruits in our life time.
 
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Norah63

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so the plan is to do away with the money and just barter? And this will erase greed from the heart of man?
When you say that working for love is only to spread the gospel, I take that to mean preaching or sharing with unbelievers.
Then why is there so much effort to teach the other christians on this thread your walk of faith? Walk it and be blessed.
If your family was provided for without any effort on your part, you are truly getting what you need. I guess it was manna, nothing else was mentioned.
A million questions could be asked, but not if a response was just an attack.
 
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ebedmelech

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Ebed:
"You know what...it's all good for me, because last I checked with God, He didn't tell me I had to check with you or Candle glow."

You are so right, Ebed. You see, with me at least, all you need to do is check the verses I posted from my good Friend and Lord, Jesus. You don't need blue letters and footnotes because I don't have any. Of course you DO need to check with Jesus (unless you've found someone else who can give you eternal life).
I have have been walking with God quite a while. Through a 6 children, 10 grandchildren, a 24 year miiltary career, and now in a 2nd career.

I have read the Word countless times and no...when I read the whole counsel of God...I don't come away with your line of thinking on this matter.

Blue letter is simply a lexicon that one can look at the Greek or Hebrew words scripture was translated from to see the actual Greek or Hebrew word and it's meaning.

I have God's word on the understanding of money, wealth, riches, and material goods. I don't hold this thinking that I only need to listen to Jesus on this matter and discount the rest of the Word. God has never failed me.

I'm pretty sure if God wanted me to see it your way He would have stopped me in my tracks long ago.
 
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Forge3

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so the plan is to do away with the money and just barter? And this will erase greed from the heart of man?
When you say that working for love is only to spread the gospel, I take that to mean preaching or sharing with unbelievers.
Then why is there so much effort to teach the other christians on this thread your walk of faith? Walk it and be blessed.
If your family was provided for without any effort on your part, you are truly getting what you need. I guess it was manna, nothing else was mentioned.
A million questions could be asked, but not if a response was just an attack.

A man could still barter and yet have lust, envy. The heart must be circumsized. And circumcision is not a pleasant operation. Blessings are upon those who live in great simplicity and find joy in simple things, each reminding them of the Lord. Attachments may clutter the heart and the Lord invites us to clear the table so to speak. Does this mean that those in the world who work for their bread with money and raise children are less? The Lord does not judge by outward appearances but by the heart.
 
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ebedmelech

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A man could still barter and yet have lust, envy. The heart must be circumsized. And circumcision is not a pleasant operation. Blessings are upon those who live in great simplicity and find joy in simple things, each reminding them of the Lord. Attachments may clutter the heart and the Lord invites us to clear the table so to speak. Does this mean that those in the world who work for their bread with money and raise children are less? The Lord does not judge by outward appearances but by the heart.

The problem is when one ignores the rest of scripture you can come away with this line of thinking that wealth is evil.

When one looks at one of God's primary test cases "Job", who Satan came to God and moved Him to allow him to test Job.

This is what Job had before the test:

"Seven sons and three daughters were born to him. His possessions also were 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, 500 female donkeys, and very many servants; and that man was the greatest of all the men of the east."

This was God's opinion of Job:
"For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”

Satan takes all Job has, his sons and daughters are killed, and Job is struck with disease. This is what Job says about it:

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,And naked I shall return there.
The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”


The summary is this...after God has tested Job, and Job holds his integrity...God gives him even more:

"The Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; and he had 14,000 sheep and 6,000 camels and 1,000 yoke of oxen and 1,000 female donkeys. He had seven sons and three daughters. He named the first Jemimah, and the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch. In all the land no women were found so fair as Job’s daughters; and their father gave them inheritance among their brothers. After this, Job lived 140 years, and saw his sons and his grandsons, four generations. And Job died, an old man and full of days."


Candle glow and Luke1433, please reconcile this with what you allege Jesus is teaching.
 
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