Living by Faith--Is it for today?

maybe you have a root you would like to talk about?

candle glow said:

What a pointless question. Of course, God can do whatever he wants to do. The real question is what did he tell us to do. I thought you told luke that you were not ignoring the scriptures he posted, but based on your question here, it sure does look like you are.


What an ironic question, because it looks like you are the one saying you will only accept provision from God in the form of a paycheck.

I even invited you to come live with me and my friends as part of our community,and that we have many jobs for you to do, but that we won't pay you; you would just be another volunteer like the rest of us, indeed, like a Christian.

This was after you complained that you don't have a job. But, what was your response when I offered you many jobs? You said you didn't want it. You only want a job if it comes with a fixed salary.

God in a box much, boidae?



Once again, you've shown your "god in a box" mentality. You equate "jobs" with "paychecks". It's like you simply cannot (or will not) separate them.

See, there is no shortage of jobs for us to do as Christians, but still, you speak as though God providing you with a job is the same as providing you with a paycheck; there appears to be no difference in your understanding.

Could this have anything to do with the root of all evil?

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I just had this long reply typed out, that included the Greek meaning of a portion of scripture, that is until my wife came by and asked a simple question.

Why?

What she meant by that is why am I arguing my point? The only one that I need to prove anything to is our Lord.

She is right, there is no point in arguing. My job is to point people to Christ, not argue with those who are already Christians. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I could argue all day long all the different beliefs that are out there concerning the riches of His word, but that is not what I am called to do.

I am going to respect your beliefs as a child of God and not argue them with you. Anything that is said to me I will double check with scripture and prayer as I have always done, but when I find something that doesn't line up with what has been revealed to me through my study and prayer I will no longer argue the point.

My wife can be very wise when I can be so very unwise.

Very good point Boidae. That simple 'why' was helpful to me also. In Romans 14 it tells us not to get into doubtful disputations.
Blessings to all who love and serve our Lord Jesus

I have not read every single response to this initial post, but from what I have read I want to add that though faith is key, it really is twinned with God's LOVE, because without Love our faith is ??
1Cor 13:2

candle glow said:

Hi trent. thanks for sharing your thoughts. Would you mind trying to apply what you've shard here to what Jesus said about "oh ye of little faith" when commenting on materialism and working for "mammon" (money and the things money can buy)? This comes from matthew 6:19-34, but can also be found all throughout the NT in various scriptures, too.

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He said they had little faith, not no faith at all.

She is right, there is no point in arguing. My job is to point people to Christ, not argue with those who are already Christians. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I could argue all day long all the different beliefs that are out there concerning the riches of His word, but that is not what I am called to do.

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Were you arguing, boidae? I thought this was a discussion. I guess we were on two different wavelengths then so it's good that you took your wife's advice (especially about the "original greek" arguments; that stuff gets so tedious when it's being used to argue against what Jesus taught).

But, I'd still like to make some comments on what you've said, even if you don't feel you can respond in a way that isn't just arguing.

I could argue all day long all the different beliefs that are out there concerning the riches of His word, but that is not what I am called to do.

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It's interesting that the "love of money" was mentioned at great length by some of us, and that the bible says this "love of money" is the "root of all evil".

The root of all evil. Is that really an issue that you've not "been called" to deal with, boidae?

Okay okay, I know I'm asking you a question, which implies that I want an answer from you in a situation where you've already decided that you can't discuss this issue without it turning into a frustrating argument on your part, but I think the question is still valid, even if you don't feel you can answer it.

Very good point Boidae. That simple 'why' was helpful to me also. In Romans 14 it tells us not to get into doubtful disputations.

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Why is it only a "doubtful disputation" when Nora says so? What is the doubt you are referring to? Are you referring to boidae? He's made it quite clear that he feels like he can't discuss this issue without arguing.

What is the Bible verse you are using to back up this mystery doubt?

I hope this isn't just sour grapes.

Do you have anything (once again) to contribute to the topic?

Of course, if you also feel like you are not able to contribute to this thread in the spirit of discussion (i.e. all you can do is argue) then I think it's good for you do whatever you feel your conscience tells you to do about it.

candle glow said:

Were you arguing, boidae? I thought this was a discussion. I guess we were on two different wavelengths then so it's good that you took your wife's advice (especially about the "original greek" arguments; that stuff gets so tedious when it's being used to argue against what Jesus taught).

But, I'd still like to make some comments on what you've said, even if you don't feel you can respond in a way that isn't just arguing.



It's interesting that the "love of money" was mentioned at great length by some of us, and that the bible says this "love of money" is the "root of all evil".

The root of all evil. Is that really an issue that you've not "been called" to deal with, boidae?

Okay okay, I know I'm asking you a question, which implies that I want an answer from you in a situation where you've already decided that you can't discuss this issue without it turning into a frustrating argument on your part, but I think the question is still valid, even if you don't feel you can answer it.



Why is it only a "doubtful disputation" when Nora says so? What is the doubt you are referring to? Are you referring to boidae? He's made it quite clear that he feels like he can't discuss this issue without arguing.

What is the Bible verse you are using to back up this mystery doubt?

I hope this isn't just sour grapes.

Do you have anything (once again) to contribute to the topic?

Of course, if you also feel like you are not able to contribute to this thread in the spirit of discussion (i.e. all you can do is argue) then I think it's good for you do whatever you feel your conscience tells you to do about it.

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You call it discussion, I call it arguing, are we not arguing two different points?

I just asked my wife and she says her question still applies even if it's only a discussion.

My wife is being extremely wise and I will follow her advice.

I have thought about just leaving Christian forums altogether anyway. This may just be my "nail in the coffin" so to speak.

I have not read every single response to this initial post, but from what I have read I want to add that though faith is key, it really is twinned with God's LOVE, because without Love our faith is ??
1Cor 13:2

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I agree, although if you ask a hundred different people they are likely to give you a hundred different answers as to what faith is, and especially when it comes to exercising faith in practical ways.

For example, one person may say that faith is believing in a God we cannot see.

Another person may say faith is being able to sit on a chair without falling through it!

Another person may say that faith is believing a 5 dollar bill is more valuable than a gallon of milk.

On this particular thread, we are attempting to understand what living by faith means in regards to what Jesus said about how we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other, and that God feeds the birds of the air and the flowers of the air, without them needing to work or money.

He said that all the pagans of the world run after mammon (money and the things money can buy) but that we should not be like them; our NEW job is to seek his kingdom first; a kingdom where we show our love for others by helping them without demanding payment in return for that help.

Within those teachings about the birds of the air and the flowers of the field, Jesus said several times, "oh ye of little faith".

It takes faith to forsake the systems of the world and trust a system with values so alien to what we've grown up with.

You call it discussion, I call it arguing, are we not arguing two different points?

I just asked my wife and she says her question still applies even if it's only a discussion.

My wife is being extremely wise and I will follow her advice.

I have thought about just leaving Christian forums altogether anyway. This may just be my "nail in the coffin" so to speak.

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A discussion about the root of all evil is the "nail in the coffin" for you? Well, whatever; just follow your conscience.

He said they had little faith, not no faith at all.

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Hi trent. I'm a little confused about the point you are trying to make here. This is what I actually said:

Would you mind trying to apply what you've shard here to what Jesus said about "oh ye of little faith"

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You see, I quoted Jesus properly to begin with, so why do you feel the need to correct me about something I already said?

It's weird. It's like what luke shared earlier, about how he said right from the beginning, "the love of money is the root of all evil", and then he gets someone responding by correcting him with "it's not money that's evil, it's the love of money!"

It makes it sound like you are either "protesting too much" or you want to contribute in an area where you don't actually have anything to contribute.

Could you please clarify the point you were trying to make?

One cannot play the scripture against itself on the matter of money and how it's used.

When it comes to the scriptures one has to take all of scripture. We cannot only want to focus only on what Jesus said that is written, as our Lord gave the apostles the command to teach all nations.

As the passage says "ALL Scripture is inspired of God..."

When we don't take the "whole council" of God, that's where we ignore God's word to our own detriment. It is all God's word.

I live to God's word as I read it...and by all I read it's never about what you have monetarily or materially...but it's about how one serves God with what they have monetarily and materially.

Think about this for a second:

* The world operates on money, does that mean Christians aren't to use money?

* The world uses computers...does that mean Christians are not to use computers because the world uses them?

* The world uses communication devices, does that mean Christians are not to use them?

This can go on and on. We as Christians are to be wise about what God gives into our hands and how we use it. Whether money, material goods, raising your family, or your job...it comes down to what Paul said to put it in a nutshell:

1 Cor 10:13
Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

candle glow said:

A discussion about the root of all evil is the "nail in the coffin" for you? Well, whatever; just follow your conscience.

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I was actually speaking of what my wife had said about not arguing/discussing. That was the nail in the coffin that I spoke of, because I had already been thinking about no longer participating in these forums.

ebedmelech said:

One cannot play the scripture against itself on the matter of money and how it's used.

When it comes to the scriptures one has to take all of scripture. We cannot only want to focus only on what Jesus said that is written, as our Lord gave the apostles the command to teach all nations.

As the passage says "ALL Scripture is inspired of God..."

When we don't take the "whole council" of God, that's where we ignore God's word to our own detriment. It is all God's word.

I live to God's word as I read it...and by all I read it's never about what you have monetarily or materially...but it's about how one serves God with what they have monetarily and materially.

Think about this for a second:

* The world operates on money, does that mean Christians aren't to use money?

* The world uses computers...does that mean Christians are not to use computers because the world uses them?

* The world uses communication devices, does that mean Christians are not to use them?

This can go on and on. We as Christians are to be wise about what God gives into our hands and how we use it. Whether money, material goods, raising your family, or your job...it comes down to what Paul said to put it in a nutshell:

1 Cor 10:13
Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

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Thanks ebedmelech your took the works out of my mouth.

candle glow you seem to be riding a hobby horse of some type could you come clean with your beliefs and be positive rather then trying to tear apart everyone's ideas?

candle glow you seem to be riding a hobby horse of some type could you come clean with your beliefs and be positive rather then trying to tear apart everyone's ideas?

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Hi WW. Unfortunately, it does seem to come to this all too often when discussing money issues. It's a shame that you think discussion about the root of all evil is a "hobby horse" when someone disagrees with you about it.

And can you describe this "tearing apart" that I've supposedly done? Can you quote me at all, ya know, like some kind of evidence to support what you are saying?

Otherwise, it looks like "protesting too much".

I was actually speaking of what my wife had said about not arguing/discussing. That was the nail in the coffin that I spoke of, because I had already been thinking about no longer participating in these forums.

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Hi Boidae. Sorry to hear that you feel like you shouldn't participate on these forums anymore. That's not necessarily a bad thing if you think it's what God is telling you to do.

Good luck with it.

One cannot play the scripture against itself on the matter of money and how it's used.

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Can you explain the "playing"? Can you quote me where you feel I've been playing one verse against another? As much as you believe yourself about this, evidence would be helpful.

When it comes to the scriptures one has to take all of scripture. We cannot only want to focus only on what Jesus said that is written, as our Lord gave the apostles the command to teach all nations.

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And yet you did not post any scripture. Why don't you give it a try. Let's test the spirits...

I live to God's word as I read it...and by all I read it's never about what you have monetarily or materially

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Can you see the exaggeration you've just made? It's "never" about monetary or material issues? but, Jesus said HEAPS about it, as well as many other new testament writers. Weren't you just lecturing me about how we need to take the WHOLE counsel of God?

And you, you say that Jesus NEVER said anything about what one has materially or monetarily?

Sounds like irrational reasoning. Perhaps it has something to do with the root of all evil?

* The world operates on money, does that mean Christians aren't to use money?

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I never said Christians should not use money. I only said what Jesus said; we cannot work for both without cheating one or the other. Can you see the difference? Hint, it's about motivations.

Remember, it's not money that is evil, but the love of it.

The world uses computers...does that mean Christians are not to use computers because the world uses them?

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Well, apparently Jesus didn't eat ice cream either, does that mean we should not eat ice cream?

You are right, the list of absurdities could go on and on, but here's a thought; instead of focusing on stuff Jesus did not say, why not deal with the stuff he did say?

When we don't take the "whole council" of God, that's where we ignore God's word to our own detriment. It is all God's word.

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Right right, I get it, Solomon is equal to Jesus, right? Of course, that's NOT what Jesus said. In fact, on TWO separate occasions, that we know of, Jesus himself bragged about having wisdom greater than Solomon's.

But hey, does it really matter what Jesus said? After all, we should think that we can depend on the chief cornerstone when the builders are busy telling us it's okay to set him aside...

candle glow said:

Hi WW. Unfortunately, it does seem to come to this all too often when discussing money issues. It's a shame that you think discussion about the root of all evil is a "hobby horse" when someone disagrees with you about it.

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Oh yeah thanks for calling me WW this time.

To bad you have already drawn the conclusion that we disagree with each other, because if you really understood my position we would not be that far apart.

And can you describe this "tearing apart" that I've supposedly done? Can you quote me at all, ya know, like some kind of evidence to support what you are saying?

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Tearing apart may be little strong, due to my poor English skills I could not come up with another word for it. Take the three posts in a row you did ...inserting you opinion and questioning all the others people's ideas which is what we can do here in discussion. [no problem]

I would just want you to write here what you believe or would like us to understand about God and Money and Faith. i am sure I am not the only one that would like you to expound on it.





Hi Boidae. Sorry to hear that you feel like you shouldn't participate on these forums anymore. That's not necessarily a bad thing if you think it's what God is telling you to do.

Good luck with it.[/QUOTE]

May just be that CG wants everyone to go to that web site and read?
Having done that and got what was put there about money.
Still communication is stilted, because if you do not use the words from that web site
apparently anyone else is wrong.
I think thats called 'right fighting', and so not my thing.
However it is much appreciated what all have shared on this.
A multitude of wise council.

candle glow said:

Can you explain the "playing"? Can you quote me where you feel I've been playing one verse against another? As much as you believe yourself about this, evidence would be helpful.

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The word "playing" as I use it...means using scripture against scripture. As you earlier made the statement that Paul "made a mistake" in what is recorded as he said in scripture. I think not. Paul is inspired of the Holy Spirit just as all the other writers of scripture. As you did here:

candle glow said:

Paul was a very great teacher; there is so much about his writings that I find comfort in. When I think about his authority and his boldness in preaching the gospel of Jesus, I feel so inspired.

And yet, Paul was still human like the rest of us. He was still capable of making mistakes. Those of us today have the benefit of hindsight, and ALSO the benefit that Paul himself was sincere enough to point out his flawed thinking.

It's not as though I think I am in a position to correct a person with the kind of authority Paul had, but only that I am looking at his correction of himself and honoring that correction.

Paul understood his own faults and never wanted us to follow him in areas where he made mistakes. It surely must be a very difficult position for a teacher to be in, knowing that people will look to you for inspiration and example, yet you know that you are also imperfect and that you will make mistakes and you don't want others to confuse your mistakes with your sincerity.

I believe Paul struggled with that same balance, and I think he did very well with it despite his mistakes.

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This assertion of yours that Paul was in error is frankly ridiculous! What he said is written and it is not error!!! You are in error for even thinking so...I mean... WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION THE TEACHING OF ANY OF THE APOSTLES???

Brother.you are sorely mistaken!!! This is what is written about the scriptures:

2 Tim 3:16
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

2 Peter 1:20, 21:
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Now you tell me...who are we to listen to...you OR the Apostle Paul???

candle glow said:

And yet you did not post any scripture. Why don't you give it a try. Let's test the spirits...

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No problem at all! I'll even focus on the "key words" in thepassages that show it's not possessions...but where one's heart is about their possessions:

Matthew 6:19:21:
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6:24:
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Matthew 6:31-33
31 Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’
32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Luke 12:15:
15 Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions.

Those are three verses with good balance as to what the Lord is saying...which is NOT that we shouldn't have, save, or invest money...but that our hearts, or motivation, or sense of being/self worth is not to be about money. We get out of God's will when our hearts become about money.

candle glow said:

Can you see the exaggeration you've just made? It's "never" about monetary or material issues? but, Jesus said HEAPS about it, as well as many other new testament writers. Weren't you just lecturing me about how we need to take the WHOLE counsel of God?

And you, you say that Jesus NEVER said anything about what one has materially or monetarily?

Sounds like irrational reasoning. Perhaps it has something to do with the root of all evil?

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I think the passages I noted above shows I have it right. Here are a few more:
1 Tim 6:9:10:
9 But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.
10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Proverbs 11:24:
24 There is one who scatters, and yet increases all the more,And there is one who withholds what is justly due, and yet it results only in want.

Proverbs 21:5:
5 The plans of the diligent lead surely to advantage, But everyone who is hasty comes surely to poverty.

What I see here...is that it is apparent you've developed a "false dichotomy" which is a "pet peeve of yours about money and material for the Christian. You want to adopt only what *you think* Jesus says and discount the rest of scripture...and have others adopt that. I will not.

I will sum up my point with 2 Corinthians 9:6-15. This is the Apostle Paul, who was personally chosen by Jesus. This is what he says about money and giving:

6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
9 as it is written,
“He scattered abroad, he gave to the poor, His righteousness endures forever.” (that would be Psalm 112:9)
10 Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
11 you will be enriched in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving to God.
12 For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
13 Because of the proof given by this ministry, they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all,
14 while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.
15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

Now that is said quite beautifully and with the balance that God expects of His people.

I'll take that and run with it. You do your thing for God...and I'll do mine...