the 3 "nows" at the end of Rom. 11

Interplanner said:

Paul is explaining that the Redeemer-to-Zion prophecy is a historic fact for him; it is the Christ event of 33 AD. Because of this God has now (the 1st century's now) shut up all men in sin; and he has had mercy on all in Jesus Christ. Israel is now disobedient (in God's accounting) so that it also can recieve mercy.

Yet this text (the Isaiah lines from 59 and 27) are treated, against their NT interp, as having to do with our future, over and over and over. It's got to stop.

--Inter

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Agreed, but good luck with that!

In the faith,
Clare

Interplanner said:

Paul is explaining that the Redeemer-to-Zion prophecy is a historic fact for him; it is the Christ event of 33 AD. Because of this God has now (the 1st century's now) shut up all men in sin; and he has had mercy on all in Jesus Christ. Israel is now disobedient (in God's accounting) so that it also can recieve mercy.

Yet this text (the Isaiah lines from 59 and 27) are treated, against their NT interp, as having to do with our future, over and over and over. It's got to stop.

--Inter

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Clare73 said:

Agreed, but good luck with that!

In the faith,
Clare

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Quote] ... ''It's got to stop'' ... [End Quote.

Romans 11:25-26 KJV
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles [GSN#1484 ethnos] be come in.
26. And so [GSN#3779 houto] all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Ethnos is also ''HEATHEN'' depending on the context:

Original Strong's Ref. #1484
Romanized ethnos
Pronounced eth'-nos
probably from GSN1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication, pagan):
KJV--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Houto-houtos is ''IN THIS MANNER'' or ''IN THIS WAY''

Original Strong's Ref. #3779
Romanized houto
Pronounced hoo'-to
or (before a vowel} houtos {hoo'-toce}; adverb from GSN3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows):
KJV--after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

Romans 11:25-27
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the HEATHEN be entered in.
26. AND IN THIS WAY shall all Israel be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

When the fullness of the heathen be come in; even seven nations greater and mightier than thou, (Deuteronomy 7:1) then shall your sun be darkened, and your moon not give her light: and then, (if indeed you overcome) calling upon the name of the Lord, you shall be saved, even as the Girgashite man of the Gergesenes.

Acts 2:16-21 KJV
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Did either of you happen see or experience any of this whatsoever in the day of your confession? In the day of your ''sinners prayer'' or ''altar call''? In the day that you gave your life over to Christ Yeshua regardless of where you were at the time? We do not get to choose the day of our redemption and the promises are not fulfilled until that great day; the day which no man knows, not even the angels, but the Father only. Therefore perhaps you are not so ''saved'' as you profess to be? Perhaps it would be wise to reconsider some of your own theology? For we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit of Promise when we first believe; and that is UNTO the great day of the redemption of the purchased possession, which is the believer himself, or herself, and that great day of redemption is when the promise is received.

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Each in his or her appointed times; and none shall be alone in his appointed times, and as for yourselves who else can know but the Father? Maybe five have fallen and the one is? or maybe that one to come, who does not tarry, is already with you? When the unclean spirit is cast out of the man he goes through arid-dry-desert places, seeking rest, and finds none: then he takes to himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself and returns to his former house, which is YOU, if indeed you came to Christ in the beginning of your walk. We are therefore commanded to WATCH for the signs in our own selves if indeed we are walking according to the Spirit.

Mark 13:35-37 KJV
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Yet the one who is coming first will not tarry; knowing that he has but a short time: But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition-destruction, rather we are of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Turn away from your current path; stop telling other believers there is no more need to WATCH! Begin watching for the signs in yourself, as commanded by the Master at the end of Mark 13. Watch! for perhaps your own fig is beginning to put forth its foliage though you might not perceive it.

Interplanner said:

Sorry, but that is not the only sense of "in this way" available in the passage. Another is:

By deciding to believe on Christ the same way Gentiles do, all (who really are) Israel will be saved. He already told us there was such qualification back in 9:6.

Even if that weren't quite it, there is no indication at all that linear chronology is in Paul's mind. What he is concerned with is arrogance, and that belief on the accomplishment of Christ is the gateway. The result: we have a very level playing field, not slanted toward or against any people-group. This is discussed to help the Roman church pastorally (the Jews had been evicted from the city and had returned to find that Gentiles lead things and had their own ways of doing things). The passage was not written for anxious people in the 21st century to know everything about their future. Nor was the Bible.

--Inter

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Sorry for your left hand luck but the passage, as all Scripture, is written to every believer: EACH IN HIS APPOINTED TIMES. Were you alive in 70AD? Are you some kind of reincarnationist from that time period? You have subverted the Scripture so that your counterpart anthropon-man-faced may tell you in your mind that all things continue since the fathers fell asleep. This is the ESCHATOLOGY FORUM. Why are you here telling believers they have ''got to stop'' heeding the command of the Master to WATCH for his return?

daq, I'm confused as to why you brought Joel 2 into this. Don't you know that Joel 2 is speaking of something that happened 2,000 years ago?

LastSeven said:

daq, I'm confused as to why you brought Joel 2 into this. Don't you know that Joel 2 is speaking of something that happened 2,000 years ago?

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Yes indeed it did already happen in Acts 2 at Shavout-Pentecost: were you there? Because if not then it must needs happen again; and so again, and again, and again, and again, and so on, and has continued to happen since the commencement of that time. Surely there was, as it were, a great hail of fiery stones which fell from the heavens, and they were mingled with blood; for the sharp stones cut into my flesh as my carcass lay strewn upon the high places of the field for the days; three days and an hemisu: were you there? As for myself this commenced November 2006 even though before that time I had been a believer and had long fancied myself as having been ''saved'' a full twenty seven years before that great and terrible day came upon me. Yet in all that time during my so-called walk neither was I watching, and neither was I prepared, as I had been commanded by the Word. That great day came upon me as a snare; even as it also comes upon the whole world, like a thief in the night: were you there? Your appointed mow`ed-time is not the same as the next person; his appointed mow`ed-time is not the same time as her appointed mow`ed-time; and their appointed mow`diym-times are not to be the same appointed mow`diym-times as was my appointed mow`ed-time: for the Eternal High Priest is now outside of our time domain constraints, and that great day is a day which no man knows, not even your messengers, but the Father only; and it is to each in his or her own appointed times, and none shall be alone in his appointed times: and if indeed you overcome in your own hour of trial and appointed mow`ed-time then truly shall another son be born into the kingdom.

For you are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest seen with the eyes of the flesh: or the echo-reverberations of a trumpet heard with ears of the flesh, or to the sound of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: for they could not endure that which was commanded, and if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses says; I exceedingly fear and quake! But rather you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the Living YHWH, the heavenly Jerusalem of above, and to myriads of messengers, to the great assembly and ekklesia of the prototokos-first-borns which are having been written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the just having been perfected, and to the Covenant of Yeshua the New Mediator, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks of better things than that of Abel. See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spoke on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

For our God is a consuming fire ...

I actually prefer to see actual scriptural quotes in the posts, as long as they are short and to the point. Quote only the verse that is relevant, with an address, so that I can look up the context if I want to.

EDIT: On second reading of your post, I guess you're only saying that the HUGE quotes are a problem, not the small ones. Sorry. Carry on.

Interplanner said:

Uhhh, back to the original point: the 3 nows of Rom 11 have to do with things that happened then. In the Gospel, God did judge all mankind and had mercy on them all. We would be foolish not to accept his mercy in that event, but of course we can do so.

"And so all Israel" simply means 'that's how they all are saved.' Ie, All those who accept what has happened in the historic Gospel are saved. Obviously some of both groups will be hard and refuse it. (I know of no theory or statement or observation that 'all' Gentiles believe/d.) Not all Israel are Israel (9:6 etc).

It is not a future chronological statement, not with the present tense of 3 nows taken into consideration.

As for daq's sense of participating in a historical event, this is quite a common theme in the NT. For example, we were all raised in Christ (Eph 1, 2; Col 3). I think you can see it does not mean we were there 2000 years ago, yet we participate in it. Or "if one died for all, all were dead" (2 Cor 5) refering to death in Adam, even further back. Adam and Christ are alike in representing us.

So in the historic Gospel, according to Rom 11, all people are considered disobedient, so that all may have the mercy shown in the Gospel. Indeed, the meaning of the 'jewel' of Rom 3 (21-26) is that the judgement day of God has happened, is past tense, for those who believe, through what has occurred in Jesus Christ. God is now just (fair) and justifier (gracious) to the one who believes on Jesus Christ. Awesome!

The Isaiah quotes of Rom 11 are meant to be understood historically. Yes, they were in the prophet's future, but not Paul's. They are past tense for Paul, and us, through him.

--Inter

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Why the mindset of your theory is faulty:

Paul speaks earlier in Romans of the Jews and the Greeks, (Hellen or Hellenists) yet when he arrives at chapter eleven he then switches to ''ethnos''-nations which can be understood as either Gentiles or Heathen as per the context. Have you ever stopped to wonder why this is the case?

Romans 1:16 KJV
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek [GSN#1672 Hellen].

Romans 10:12-13 KJV
12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: [GSN#1672 Hellen] for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Original Strong's Ref. #1672
Romanized Hellen
Pronounced hel'-lane
from GSN1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek-speaking person, especially a non-Jew:
KJV-- Gentile, Greek.

It is because in Romans 11 he speaks not of Jews but of Gentiles and their ''heathen-beasts'' which must be dealt with before one is truly graffed into the Olive Tree of YHWH.

Romans 11:1 KJV
1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

This passage then concerns the Israelites and the northern house of Israel which went into captivity in 722BC into Assyria and Elam some 750 years before the time of Yeshua. They were sown with the seed of man and with the seed of beast, (which is supernal in meaning) according to the Jeremiah 31 New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:26-33 KJV
26. Upon this I awaked, and beheld; my sleep was sweet unto me.
27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The same New Covenant is quoted verbatim in Hebrews 8. Each and every believer has his or her own Revelation 13 ''wild beasts'' which are the gold lion of a wicked Nebuchadnezzar heart, the silver bear of the shoulders-arms-wicked deeds of man, and the four-headed leopard belly of brass-judgment. These are heathen kings which must be slain for the good of the believer who would be graffed into the house of Israel because it concerns the rending of the caul-chest plate of the heart so that the heart may be removed so as to be CIRCUMCISED IN SPIRIT.

Hosea 13:4-11 KJV
4. Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
5. I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6. According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
7. Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8. I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9. O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
10. I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
11. I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.

Those heathen kings absolutely must be removed, and if not; then the same who refuses will have no part in the Olive Tree of YHWH or the commonwealth of all Israel. One does not graft Yeshua into himself with the ''sinners prayer'' and go along his merry way but rather, as Ruth the Moabitess, the follower of Yeshua is graffed into the family Olive Tree of Jacob-Israel. In addition it is not the Jews whom Paul states are ''partially blind'' but rather it is the ''Israelites'' which choose to remain intermixed with their own heathen nations and their kings, (until the fullness of the heathen have entered into the man). And when the fullness of the heathen be come in: then shall we see who overcomes in his mow`ed-appointed times and hour of trial. One cannot rightly say that this is something that already happened for him through someone else two thousand years ago. To believe in such a way is the byproduct of the false teaching that every believer is already ''saved'' and just needs to go ''preach the good news''. Those who refuse to even watch, as the Master commanded, are deceiving themselves into believing that there is no ongoing spiritual battle for their own souls; they are simply listening to the voices of their own ''heathen kings''. None is more deluded then the one who thinks himself to have won the war just because he made it through the opening round.

Interplanner said:

Sorry, can't see any connection to what Rom 11 is about.

Romans was written to help the Jewish Christians who were banned from Rome (Acts 18) and were returning come to terms with the fact that God can run his new redemptive community through non-Jews. It wouldn't make much sense to deal with 2 kinds of Israel, when your point is that because of justification by Christ, there is an equality of contribution to ministry and fellowship between Jews and non-Jews.

--Inter

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Interplanner said:

Smaller, shorter, concise posts may be better than HUGE pasted quotations that say 47 other great things.

--Inter

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You have taken the context of Romans 11 out of the context of the Epistle to the Romans and made for yourself a different gospel.

Hope that was smaller, shorter, and concise enough for you.

Interplanner said:

Smaller, shorter, concise posts may be better than HUGE pasted quotations that say 47 other great things.

--Inter

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It is surprising that one such as yourself does not like Scripture being posted. Why is that? In addition you seem to have forgotten once again that you are in the Eschatology Forum suggesting that we should all forget about eschatology, (because you claim it is the past) and go preach your version of history and the Gospel. Yet when it comes to the facts from the Scripture you do not appear to even know from where Paulos gets the analogy of the Olive Tree.

Jeremiah 11 ~ Romans 11

Romans 11:17-21 KJV
17. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Jeremiah 11:15-17 KJV
16. The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17. For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

This therefore is inseparably linked to both houses of the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 KJV
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Hebrews 8:7-12 KJV
7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

You are ignoring the context of Romans 11 which is taken from the Olive Tree analogy of Jeremiah 11 and in Romans concerns the grafting in of the house of Israel back out from the ''seed of the Gentiles'' where they had been scattered some 750 years before the arrival of Messiah into the world. Paulos therefore writes the Epistle to the Romans according to the New Covenant analogies foretold through the mouth of the prophet Jeremiah and quoted nearly verbatim by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews as being the New Covenant in which all believers do now participate. Part of the New Covenant foretold through Jeremiah is, again, the following:

Jeremiah 31:27-31 KJV
27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jeremiah 31:27 ''seed of beast'' concerns the same beasts of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13.

Romans 11 -~- Jeremiah 11
Hosea 13 -~- Revelation 13

Interplanner said:

To daq,
the only reason for being concise is that I don't need a lot of repetition. I have studied the 2500 OT quotes or allusions for about 35 years. I don't need quotation when my Bible is right handy here. I don't need Hebrews quoting Jer because as far as I know, all Hebrews is is a sermon on Jer 23-33.

I thought you might have noticed that the Jer quote here emphasizes the unified appeal to Israel and Judah, not the separation of them. Why would Paul be concerned with intra-Judaic issues when the pastoral concern of the letter is about the Jew v non-Jew issues?

So, for all the length of your last post, what are you saying?

Eschatology is what eschatology was for the apostles. I don't bypass the apostles like 1st century Judaism did, which is what the issue is about with the Letter of Barnabas, in which post-desolation Judaism wants its place back--its eschatology back (not the buildings in that appeal anyway). That eschatology is primarily what we would call futurist, but displaced or discounted or discredited the Gospel.

The historic Gospel means the resounding NT announcement that much of all OT hope and expectation is fulfilled in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith.

Just to keep the thread coherent: do you accept that the 3 nows of Rom 11 are a description of what has happened in the Christ event, ie, is essentially the same message as Rom 3:21+?

--Inter

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You ask for ''concise'' but look at your own OP:

Interplanner said:

Paul is explaining that the Redeemer-to-Zion prophecy is a historic fact for him; it is the Christ event of 33 AD. Because of this God has now (the 1st century's now) shut up all men in sin; and he has had mercy on all in Jesus Christ. Israel is now disobedient (in God's accounting) so that it also can recieve mercy.

Yet this text (the Isaiah lines from 59 and 27) are treated, against their NT interp, as having to do with our future, over and over and over. It's got to stop.

--Inter

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Honestly your OP seems incoherent, half-hearted, and lackadaisical because you did not quote the Scripture passages which you referenced to begin with. What are ''the Isaiah lines from 59 and 27'' supposed to mean? I assume you mean line 27 of Romans 11 from Isaiah 59 but that is not clear by the way in which you worded it because it appears that you reference multiple lines from Isaiah. As for ''three now's'' if you look in the KJV there are only two in that version if indeed you speak of the following passage:

Romans 11:30-31 KJV
30. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

However I did find that there are ''three now's'' in some other versions:

Romans 11:25-32 ASV
25. For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles [heathen] be come in;
26. and so [in this way] all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.
28. As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.
29. For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.
30. For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,
31. even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.
32. For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.

So why should anyone else take the time to go through these things with you, as I have tried to do, when you are here telling us we should listen to you against the advice of the Master? Especially when your evidence presented in the OP is so fractured and disorganized? And even more so when you would like everyone to avoid lengthy posts full of so much of that ''bothersome'' Scripture which refutes what you have stated?
However, here am I, so I will ask you before you continue then if you think that unbelieving Jews and ''Israelites'' are your enemy according to this passage? You see that is the problem with your eyes of the flesh viewpoint and this is what I have been attempting to show you. The seed of the ''Israelite'' is inside of you but you seemingly wish to remain a beast. Your enemy according to the Scripture is not other physical people just because they are unbelievers, (whether Jews or Gentiles). Your enemies are not of flesh and blood but rather of spirit; ''For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places'' (Ephesians 6:12) ''Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others'' (Ephesians 2:2-3). Yet according to the same New Testament author who penned these things; the very same enemy resides in the flesh as sin personified: and this is a mere four chapters back in the Epistle to the Romans:

Romans 7:14-25 KJV
14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Yeshua has much to say about the ''members'' of our houses …
But perhaps you, O Israel, will remain in captivity and partially blind …
Until that great day wherein hopefully you see these things for what they are …

Interplanner said:

Yes, Is 59 and 27 refers to the 2 passages Paul fused about the Redeemer-in-Zion from Is 59 and 27. Maybe it will be clearer when you are in a different mood.
The Scriptures are not bothersome, but they have 48 great things to say that aren't on the question at hand. One subject and verb at a time.
--Inter

Click to expand...

Why can you not simply quote chapter and verse so that others do not have to attempt to read your mind? Is it because you know full well what you are doing? The Romans passage comes from Isaiah 59:20-21 and the Jeremiah New Covenant. To take the small half line from Romans 11:27b, (''when I shall take away their sins'') and suggest that it comes from Isaiah 27:9 is the work of ''smoke and mirrors subterfuge'' of the theology majors and minors who do not want to face up to the Truth. It is nothing more than an attempt to mask the fact that Paul is speaking clearly of the Jeremiah 31 New Covenant passages quoted previously herein. The following are the Barnes Notes concerning the same passage:

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
''For this is my covenant ... - This expression is found immediately following the other in Isaiah 59:21. But the apostle connects with it a part of another promise taken from Jeremiah 31:33-34; or rather he abridges that promise, and expresses its substance, by adding 'when I shall take away their sins.' It is clear that he intended to express the general sense of the promises, as they were well known to the Jews, and as it was a point concerning which he did not need to argue or reason with them, that God had made a covenant with them, and intended to restore them if they were cast off, and should then repent and turn to him. The time and manner in which this shall be, is not revealed. It may be remarked, however, that that passage does not mean that the Redeemer shall come personally and preach to them, or re-appear for the purpose of recalling them to himself; nor does it mean that they will be restored to the land of their fathers. Neither of these ideas is contained in the passage. God will doubtless convert the Jews, as he does the Gentiles, by human means, and in connection with the prayers of his people; so that the Gentiles shall yet repay the toil and care of the ancient Jews in preserving the Scriptures, and preparing the way for the Messiah; and both shall rejoice that they were made helps in spreading the knowledge of the Messiah.''
http://bible.cc/romans/11-27.htm