Demons, real or imagined?

Imagican · Oct 3, 2012

Evergreen48 said:
Gen. 6:5. "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

NO, I did not ASK WHO was evil, I asked WHERE evil CAME from.

Gen. 8:21. "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

Once again, I did not ask WHO is evil or WHY, I ask WHERE DID EVIL COME FROM ORIGINALLY?

Jer. 7:22. "For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23. But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. 24. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. "

Once again, I did not ask WHO is evil or what is contained within one's imagination. The question is, "Where did EVIL come from?"

Jer. 17:3. "The heart is deceitful above ALL things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Ok, so the heart can be desperately evil. But WHERE did EVIL come from BEFORE it was contained within man's heart?

Matt. 15:18. "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20. These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."

Ok, if these things COME OUT OF THE HEART, how do they GET THERE to BEGIN WITH?

You merely offered scripture that has nothing to do with an answer to the question. I didn't ask WHO is evil or if men have evil in their hearts, I asked WHERE did EVIL originate?

Now, from a Biblical perspective, it originated IN THE GARDEN so far as mankind is concerned.

But the ORIGIN of EVIL according to The Word is SATAN. Satan REBELLED against God IN HEAVEN BEFORE he beguiled EVE.

So far as The Word is concerned, the FIRST instance of disobedience that the Bible mentions is SATAN rebelling against God in heaven.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Oct 3, 2012

You know, there was a time when SOME men realized that dirt and filthiness caused infection. Since it was a NEW idea, many rejected it. They even ridiculed those that were trying to teach that infections were caused by bacteria that couldn't be SEEN.

Now days we have actually magnified bacteria to the extent that we can SEE INSIDE them. So HOW FOOLISH do those of the past look NOW? How FOOLISH did they LOOK to those that INTRODUCED the concept of bacteria causing infection?

It is NO different here in this discussion. There are those that have OPENLY stated that they have encountered DEMONS. Yet others, for some reason, are insistent that they DO NOT EXIST.

I would say that between the Bible, and between the testimony that has been offered by numerous people, those that are in denial are simply WRONG and unable to come to the TRUTH of the matter.

And that leads to the question of WHY? Why would someone who obviously knows NOTHING about the subject have ANYTHING to offer? If you reject the Word as offered in the Bible, if you reject those that have offered testimony and witness, WHAT could POSSIBLY be the INFLUENCE that would have SOME continue to DENY what has been offered? What would be the SOURCE or INFLUENCE that would LEAD one to deny the TRUTH?

Blessings,

MEC

Evergreen48 · Oct 4, 2012

Imagican said:
Do you DELIBERATELY attempt to DECEIVE? there is NOTHING offered in the Word that states that Jesus went 40 days without WATER. It states that HE FASTED. Fasting does NOT mean to go without WATER. It means to go without EATING. And men have lived MUCH LONGER than 40 days without EATING.

In some cases fasting does mean going without both food and water for a period time. But that really is not the point here. My reasoning on this is that Jesus ascended to the presence of his Father where there is neither food nor drink as we know these things to be.

So you take words that are clearly offered that an ENTITY tempted Satan and then attempt to turn it into YOUR story. A story where there IS NO entity, merely a MINDSET within Christ's HEAD. Yet this is NOT what we are offered. We are offered that there was a LITERAL conversation between the TWO in which Christ USED the Words of God to overcome the Devil.
It was Satan that tempted Christ ACCORDING to The Word. You make reference to the story as if you have read it and accept it. Then right where the ISSUE manifests itself, you then try to indicate that the story is NOT true. That the words offered are really DIFFERENT than what we have been offered in instruction.
You ask a question KNOWING that the answer is offered CLEARLY in the Word and then attempt to DENY what is offered.

You cannot ignore the language in which this record was written down. As much as you would like to ignore this there is no way around the fact that it is not recorded that it was any kind of an entity that tempted Jesus. The Greek word diabolos is an ADJECTIVE, although our translators have taken the liberty of many times using it as a noun, obviously doing so because of the age-old mindset, believing as you do, that there really is such a corporeal being that is known as the devil. In the oldest Greek Manuscripts the word is not even diabolos, but the Greek word peirazon (Verb) is used, and that simply means to test, tempt, or to question.

Let me ask YOU a question:

WHY do you continually attempt to DENY that Satan exists? Or his demons? What INSIDE information do you believe that YOU have that indicates that ALL that is offered in the Word about Satan and his demons is FALSE?

The only information I have is what the scriptures say about the matter and they do not indicate to me that Satan as a real and tangible form exists, or that what are called his demons exist. I gave up fairy tales when my intellectuality matured. (Actually, I never believed fairies and elves etc., were real, but it was an exciting world to enter, especially when I became bored with the hum drum of every day life.

)

You obviously have read in The Word. Why do you believe it necessary to accept certain parts of it and then reject others? Where DID YOU LEARN the DIFFERENCE between what is offered that is TRUTH and what is offered that if FALSE?

I don't reject anything that is contained within what is called our Holy Bible, although I know, as surely you must also realize, that mankind, being subject to error, has made some mistakes in its translation into our English language from the original languages in which it was written, and that most of our translations that are commonly used today are but paraphrases of the original writings. For the most part I find this acceptable, but there are some things that are too blatant to ignore and the 'saga' of the origin of what is called the devil or Satan is one of those very things; yet I don't believe this is necessarily a blunder caused by an opinionated paraphrase, but more the result of a determination of those who are bored with the tranquility and peacefulness of the spiritual kingdom, to prove a more exciting fantasy.

NO, I did not ASK WHO was evil, I asked WHERE evil CAME from.
Once again, I did not ask WHO is evil or WHY, I ask WHERE DID EVIL COME FROM ORIGINALLY?

Once again, I did not ask WHO is evil or what is contained within one's imagination. The question is, "Where did EVIL come from?"

Ok, so the heart can be desperately evil. But WHERE did EVIL come from BEFORE it was contained within man's heart?

Ok, if these things COME OUT OF THE HEART, how do they GET THERE to BEGIN WITH?

You merely offered scripture that has nothing to do with an answer to the question. I didn't ask WHO is evil or if men have evil in their hearts, I asked WHERE did EVIL originate?

Evil, or better called, wickedness originates within the person. It is by their own design and desire that wickedness is both conceived and then born in the heart of the individual. (James 1:14)

Now, from a Biblical perspective, it originated IN THE GARDEN so far as mankind is concerned.

But the ORIGIN of EVIL according to The Word is SATAN. Satan REBELLED against God IN HEAVEN BEFORE he beguiled EVE.

So far as The Word is concerned, the FIRST instance of disobedience that the Bible mentions is SATAN rebelling against God in heaven.

That is opinion, not factual. The story of adam and Eve in the garden of Eden is either literal or it is symbolic. Common sense necessarily dictates that it must be symbolic, albeit that taking it literally is much more exciting to some than taking it to be symbolic.

Have a nice day, Imagican.

Imagican · Oct 5, 2012

Evergreen.

Let's start HERE: In order for 'evil' to ORIGINATE in the hearts of men, that would necessitate us being CREATED with the capacity to CREATE 'evil' OURSELVES. In essence, what YOU are trying to offer is that MAN 'created evil'. That is AN IMPOSSIBILITY considering that WE were 'created' in the IMAGE of God. That would mean that God has the capacity to commit EVIL. Yet the scriptures plainly state that this is an IMPOSSIBILITY.

From the gist of your post, I would have to assume that you have yet to come to the TRUTH as concerns Satan and his minions.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

It would seem that YOU believe you have become TOO intelligent to accept what has been offered in God's Word. You have openly STATED it.

See, you are SO full of yourself that you cannot even admit it when it is PLAINLY proven that you were WRONG in past posts. Nothing offered in the incident recorded of Christ fasting in the desert MENTIONS 'water' or 'drinking'. It STATES that he was HUNGRY, not THIRSTY.

From Freedictionary.com

fast 2 (f

st)intr.v. fast·ed, fast·ing, fasts 1. To abstain from food.
2. To eat very little or abstain from certain foods, especially as a religious discipline.

n.1. The act or practice of abstaining from or eating very little food.
2. A period of such abstention or self-denial.

No mention of WATER or DRINKING.

And it DOES matter. If you can't even properly relate such a simple matter as 'fasting', then how are others to accept you attempting to offer something DEEPER? In other words, if you can't even get the BEGINNING of a 'story' correct, how are others to accept you getting the rest of it 'right'?

So once again, we have YOU offering that YOU are more capable of translating the Bible than 47 scholars that spent 7 years on such a task. And some of THOSE scholars SO fluent in Greek that they sat around and debated IN THAT LANGUAGE. PLEASE!!!!!!

All I can offer is THIS: I KNOW for a FACT that Satan exists. So for you or anyone else to try and convince others that he doesn't leads ONLY to one conclusion. In my opinion, blindness is the ONLY possible conclusion. And then that brings into question WHERE the blindness is COMING from. If it is NOT through the Spirit of God that one CAN be blind in such a manner, what 'spirit' would BE able to bring about such blindness?

We SEE 'unclean spirits' able to CONTROL the MINDS of those under their influence. We SEE 'unclean spirits' able to bring about numerous physical ailments. Perhaps 'spiritual blindness' is but another 'thing' that 'unclean spirits' are able to bring about in influence. """"I am making NO accusations"""" I am simply offering speculation based on what we have been offered in The Word.

You speak in contradiction. You SAY that you do NOT reject ANYTHING offered in the Bible. Yet you reject the concept of Satan as an entity and 'unclean spirits' as his minions.

The NT is RIFE with episodes of Christ CASTING OUT DEMONS. And not ONLY Christ, but Christ empowering His apostles to DO THE SAME. The Bible states that Christ cast SEVEN demons from Mary.

So it is CLEAR to anyone that reads your posts that you most assuredly reject MUCH of what is offered in the Bible. For you have admitted that you are TOO SMART to accept MUCH of what it offers.

I would be willing to offer a pretty substantial wager that you reject MUCH of what is offered in the OT and the NEW. For you have also STATED that the story of the 'garden' is SYMBOLIC and DID NOT TAKE PLACE. So that means that you most likely do NOT believe in the FLOOD, the TOWER of Babel. Jonah being swallowed by a FISH. Heck, if the truth were known, you probably do not believe MOST of what we are offered in the Bible being FACT. Your premiss would be that it is ALMOST ALL 'symbolic'. For once one becomes TOO SMART to believe in these 'fairy tales', where does that sort of logic END?

So far, you have offered that from YOUR perspective, EVERYTHING offered in the Bible concerning Satan or demons is MISTRANSLATION. Not merely one line here and there, but the ENTIRE CONCEPT as offered in the Bible is due to MISTRANSLATION.

That being the case, one that chooses to use such a defense is capable of ignoring ANYTHING offered in the Bible by simply stating that in THEIR opinion, it is merely a matter of MISTRANSLATION. Heck, the ENTIRE BIBLE could be trivialized in such a manner.

So you will forgive me if I find what you offer to be insignificant in a search for TRUTH. For I am a FIRM believer that the Bible was DIRECTLY inspired by God. That regardless of the potential for 'human error', there is NOT ENOUGH error in the Bible to LEAD one to 'false understanding'. Only those VOID of The Spirit could be LED astray by the Bible itself.

Blessings,

MEC

waves · Oct 5, 2012

Imagican said:
I am curious. It would seem that the 'churches' have mostly chosen to IGNORE this topic. I can't help but wonder WHY?

Is it that they don't BELIEVE in demons or is it that they simply don't know how to DEAL with the issue? Have they chosen instead to just IGNORE the implications by an indicated belief that they 'don't exist'?

So, what think YOU: Demons, are they REAL or merely imagined?

Blessings,

MEC

[FONT=&quot]Mark 5 verse 1-15:[/FONT]

[1] And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
[2] And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
[3] Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
[4] Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
[5] And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
[6] But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
[7] And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
[8] For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
[9] And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
[10] And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
[11] Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
[12] And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
[13] And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.
[14] And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.
[15] And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

Jpark · Oct 6, 2012

Imagican said:
I am curious. It would seem that the 'churches' have mostly chosen to IGNORE this topic. I can't help but wonder WHY?

Is it that they don't BELIEVE in demons or is it that they simply don't know how to DEAL with the issue? Have they chosen instead to just IGNORE the implications by an indicated belief that they 'don't exist'?

So, what think YOU: Demons, are they REAL or merely imagined?

Blessings,

MEC

Romans 16:19 For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.

Col. 3:2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

James 3:15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.

Some don't believe, some are incompetent (Acts 19), and some are lacking the right tools to deal with them. But most just have an aversion and they do well not to think about it. Right now it's October and the ghosts and hauntings are quite popular subjects.

And I have experienced spirits: hearing loud particular bird sounds at home, at the mountains, at the cabin I was staying in, and coming from the top of tall trees in a nearby forested area, whether day or night. It's not just me hearing them might I add.

Evergreen48 said:
they counted any mental illness or mind derangement as being possessed by a devil or devils; demon or demons,

A good example of this would be found in Matthew 8: 29-32 (Mark 5:12-13 & Luke 8:32-33) Clearly the subject under consideration here was suffering from what is commonly known as multiple personality disorder (dissociative identity disorder). We find in all three of these accounts that the demons implored Jesus to cast them into the herd of swine which was feeding nearby, which he did, but not one of the accounts lends any physical description to the so-called demons.

Not always. There were also spirits from God (1 Sam. 16:14).

There were 2 men: The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, including what had happened to the demoniacs.

It's just that one of them was more violent: They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way.

Imagican · Oct 7, 2012

I find it difficult to believe that out of ALL the confessions offered by those that have committed atrocious acts that ANYONE who has READ The Bible and BELIEVES could dismiss the implications of 'evil spirits'.

I opened this thread with the ASSUMPTION that EVERYONE that has read the Word and BELIEVES would be aware of 'demonic spirits'. I was simply asking WHY the 'churches' seem to MOSTLY ignore the subject. I had NO IDEA that there would be so many that would profess a belief that they DO NOT EXIST. I thought that would be a GIVEN.

Christ was 'tempted by THE DEVIL' three times in the dessert. Christ cast out 'demons' over and over throughout the Gospels. Christ empowered His apostles to 'cast out' unclean spirits.

In order to DENY this, one must attempt to discredit EACH and every one of these offerings. One must attempt to convince others that EACH of these events was MADE UP or misinterpreted. And this doesn't even 'take into account' PERSONAL experience.

I have had PERSONAL experiences with DEMONS, unclean spirits, devils, evil spirits, whatever you may choose to call them, I have had PERSONAL dealings with them.

While you are perfectly capable of labeling me insane, or mentally ill, I can assure you that if I were to be examined by any psychologist or other supposed "EXPERT", I would be deemed SANE. Yet I offer openly and FREELY that I have had ACTUAL personal dealings with 'demons'. On MORE than ONE occasion.

And I have witnessed MANY that SEEMED insane AT TIMES when in fact it was NOTHING OTHER THAN possession. They were 'beside themselves'. No different than the accounts given by those confessing their crimes before men. How OFTEN have we heard it?: "It was like I was OUTSIDE of my body watching myself do these things". Over and over if you LISTEN to the confessions, so many sound EXACTLY the SAME. "It was like I was WATCHING MYSELF pull the trigger". "It wasn't until I HEARD the 'sound' of the gunshots that I was BACK IN MY BODY". "As soon as it was over I was standing there asking myself, WHY?" and then there are those that actually STATE that they were 'battling demons'. That they KILLED someone to 'save their souls'.

Insanity? Perhaps. For that is JUST another word. Just another label that we place on those who DO things that we don't UNDERSTAND. But i BELIEVE that the understanding is THERE, it's just that many refuse to acknowledge the REASONS for MANY THINGS.

Choosing to believe that we are INDIVIDUALS that have CONTROL of our lives and that it is merely CHOICE that brings about the consequences.

When in TRUTH, we are AT WAR. We are constantly being invaded unless we remain IN THE SPIRIT at all times we are liable to have the 'lines breached' and the enemy dwell directly in our very souls.

And guys and gals, RECOGNITION is the FIRST step in our DEFENSE. Recognition of the ENEMY. For without recognition the enemy can 'creep in' unnoticed and us unaware. Live right in our very souls and build up the power and information needed to DESTROY US. For once the enemy KNOWS our weaknesses and vulnerability, there is NOTHING LEFT to empower us to defend ourselves.

The Devil is REAL. He is as real as God or Christ or angels. And he is spirit. And he is at odds with God, determined to have his place in our hearts. Determined to have us worship HIM as God. And he was WITH God long enough to KNOW God well enough to mimic Him and His Son. For those that are defenseless, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to KNOW the DIFFERENCE. Just open your eyes and LOOK at 'all the churches' that are following in Satan's footsteps rather than God's through Christ. They are USING the names of God and Christ but their hearts couldn't be FURTHER AWAY from the TRUTH.

And there are those that THINK that this happens NATURALLY? That these institutions that follow anything BUT God are 'inspired by MEN'? For what PURPOSE? Why would MEN choose to follow in LIES?

No folks. There exists influence OUTSIDE of men. Both GOOD and EVIL. And one is MUCH more 'sensual' than the other and therefore of the UTMOST danger. For the flesh SEEKS that which is SENSUAL. That which is PLEASING to the FLESH. Confusing that which sensual and mystic to that which is 'spiritual'. And Satan knows EXACTLY how to offer this in a manner that is almost IMPOSSIBLE to detect by the layman.

HOW do you THINK "Legion" found himself in the situation he was in? How about Mary having had seven demons cast out of her? And the man's CHILD that had a demon trying to KILL HIM? These people weren't practicing WITCHCRAFT. These were JUST PEOPLE. People that ENTERTAINED demons most likely UNAWARE.

And the Bible indicates that IF one is NOT wearing the WHOLE armor of God AT ALL TIMES, each is liable to be INFECTED at ANY TIME. That Satan is roving around like a hungry lion just LOOKING for someone to DEVOUR. This AIN'T NO JOKE FOLKS.

My original thought when I opened this thread was to build it up to a conclusion in this: Is it POSSIBLE that many of the 'churches' themselves are DEMON FILLED? That they are congregations filled by those possessed of demons?

For we have SEEN the evidence. We have SEEN the Jim Jones Massacre, David Koresh leading dozens to their deaths, including women and children.

Not to mention such INANE institutions as Scientology and other HEAVEN'S GATE type 'religions'. Isn't it APPARENT that here is some benevolent FORCE at work among mankind? Some 'force' with EVIL intent? Some force CAPABLE of leading men to their OWN destruction if allowed to infiltrate their hearts? For surely NO ONE really BELIEVES that God inspires men to HARM one another for the sake of SELF. That it is GOD that leads men to believe in 'false gods'.

We have INSTRUCTION that is pretty CLEARLY offered. While we are NOT given a BOOK that teaches us HOW to worship Satan or HOW to entertain demons, we most certainly have a BOOK with instruction that both Satan and his demons EXIST. And not only a book of instruction, but a book of EXAMPLES as well. And this doesn't even take into account PERSONAL experience. The EXAMPLES offered by those that are willing to CONFESS to their being LED to perform acts beyond the ability of man's heart to devise. The original THOUGHTS to perform such acts COMES FROM SOMEWHERE. And if we were created in the image of GOD HIMSELF, it is IMPOSSIBLE that the hearts of those created in such image could CREATE these IMAGES ON THEIR OWN. There is most definitely a SOURCE.

So, do we witness whole 'churches' that are demon possessed? Those that would insist that HANDLING serpents somehow shows their FAITH. Those that would 'drink poison' in an attempt to prove something.

We SEE throughout the OT the Hebrews/Jews learning to worship other gods from those whom they were taken captive. And even upon returning home continuing to send their 'children through the FIRE' in ritualistic worship of these 'other gods'. Is this just 'fantasy'? Or did these 'things' actually 'take place'? If they actually took place, then what FORCE was LEADING them to perform such horrendous acts? Certainly not their OWN inventions.

Blessings,

MEC

ann216 · Oct 7, 2012

yes they live in hell my church just saw a video about hell and the guest speaker went and wrong books about it its called 23 mins in hell and he saw demons

Soulgazer · Oct 7, 2012

Imagican said:
I find it difficult to believe that out of ALL the confessions offered by those that have committed atrocious acts that ANYONE who has READ The Bible and BELIEVES could dismiss the implications of 'evil spirits'.

I opened this thread with the ASSUMPTION that EVERYONE that has read the Word and BELIEVES would be aware of 'demonic spirits'. I was simply asking WHY the 'churches' seem to MOSTLY ignore the subject. I had NO IDEA that there would be so many that would profess a belief that they DO NOT EXIST. I thought that would be a GIVEN.

Christ was 'tempted by THE DEVIL' three times in the dessert. Christ cast out 'demons' over and over throughout the Gospels. Christ empowered His apostles to 'cast out' unclean spirits.

In order to DENY this, one must attempt to discredit EACH and every one of these offerings. One must attempt to convince others that EACH of these events was MADE UP or misinterpreted. And this doesn't even 'take into account' PERSONAL experience.

I have had PERSONAL experiences with DEMONS, unclean spirits, devils, evil spirits, whatever you may choose to call them, I have had PERSONAL dealings with them.

While you are perfectly capable of labeling me insane, or mentally ill, I can assure you that if I were to be examined by any psychologist or other supposed "EXPERT", I would be deemed SANE. Yet I offer openly and FREELY that I have had ACTUAL personal dealings with 'demons'. On MORE than ONE occasion.

And I have witnessed MANY that SEEMED insane AT TIMES when in fact it was NOTHING OTHER THAN possession. They were 'beside themselves'. No different than the accounts given by those confessing their crimes before men. How OFTEN have we heard it?: "It was like I was OUTSIDE of my body watching myself do these things". Over and over if you LISTEN to the confessions, so many sound EXACTLY the SAME. "It was like I was WATCHING MYSELF pull the trigger". "It wasn't until I HEARD the 'sound' of the gunshots that I was BACK IN MY BODY". "As soon as it was over I was standing there asking myself, WHY?" and then there are those that actually STATE that they were 'battling demons'. That they KILLED someone to 'save their souls'.

Insanity? Perhaps. For that is JUST another word. Just another label that we place on those who DO things that we don't UNDERSTAND. But i BELIEVE that the understanding is THERE, it's just that many refuse to acknowledge the REASONS for MANY THINGS.

Choosing to believe that we are INDIVIDUALS that have CONTROL of our lives and that it is merely CHOICE that brings about the consequences.

When in TRUTH, we are AT WAR. We are constantly being invaded unless we remain IN THE SPIRIT at all times we are liable to have the 'lines breached' and the enemy dwell directly in our very souls.

And guys and gals, RECOGNITION is the FIRST step in our DEFENSE. Recognition of the ENEMY. For without recognition the enemy can 'creep in' unnoticed and us unaware. Live right in our very souls and build up the power and information needed to DESTROY US. For once the enemy KNOWS our weaknesses and vulnerability, there is NOTHING LEFT to empower us to defend ourselves.

The Devil is REAL. He is as real as God or Christ or angels. And he is spirit. And he is at odds with God, determined to have his place in our hearts. Determined to have us worship HIM as God. And he was WITH God long enough to KNOW God well enough to mimic Him and His Son. For those that are defenseless, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to KNOW the DIFFERENCE. Just open your eyes and LOOK at 'all the churches' that are following in Satan's footsteps rather than God's through Christ. They are USING the names of God and Christ but their hearts couldn't be FURTHER AWAY from the TRUTH.

And there are those that THINK that this happens NATURALLY? That these institutions that follow anything BUT God are 'inspired by MEN'? For what PURPOSE? Why would MEN choose to follow in LIES?

No folks. There exists influence OUTSIDE of men. Both GOOD and EVIL. And one is MUCH more 'sensual' than the other and therefore of the UTMOST danger. For the flesh SEEKS that which is SENSUAL. That which is PLEASING to the FLESH. Confusing that which sensual and mystic to that which is 'spiritual'. And Satan knows EXACTLY how to offer this in a manner that is almost IMPOSSIBLE to detect by the layman.

HOW do you THINK "Legion" found himself in the situation he was in? How about Mary having had seven demons cast out of her? And the man's CHILD that had a demon trying to KILL HIM? These people weren't practicing WITCHCRAFT. These were JUST PEOPLE. People that ENTERTAINED demons most likely UNAWARE.

And the Bible indicates that IF one is NOT wearing the WHOLE armor of God AT ALL TIMES, each is liable to be INFECTED at ANY TIME. That Satan is roving around like a hungry lion just LOOKING for someone to DEVOUR. This AIN'T NO JOKE FOLKS.

My original thought when I opened this thread was to build it up to a conclusion in this: Is it POSSIBLE that many of the 'churches' themselves are DEMON FILLED? That they are congregations filled by those possessed of demons?

For we have SEEN the evidence. We have SEEN the Jim Jones Massacre, David Koresh leading dozens to their deaths, including women and children.

Not to mention such INANE institutions as Scientology and other HEAVEN'S GATE type 'religions'. Isn't it APPARENT that here is some benevolent FORCE at work among mankind? Some 'force' with EVIL intent? Some force CAPABLE of leading men to their OWN destruction if allowed to infiltrate their hearts? For surely NO ONE really BELIEVES that God inspires men to HARM one another for the sake of SELF. That it is GOD that leads men to believe in 'false gods'.

We have INSTRUCTION that is pretty CLEARLY offered. While we are NOT given a BOOK that teaches us HOW to worship Satan or HOW to entertain demons, we most certainly have a BOOK with instruction that both Satan and his demons EXIST. And not only a book of instruction, but a book of EXAMPLES as well. And this doesn't even take into account PERSONAL experience. The EXAMPLES offered by those that are willing to CONFESS to their being LED to perform acts beyond the ability of man's heart to devise. The original THOUGHTS to perform such acts COMES FROM SOMEWHERE. And if we were created in the image of GOD HIMSELF, it is IMPOSSIBLE that the hearts of those created in such image could CREATE these IMAGES ON THEIR OWN. There is most definitely a SOURCE.

So, do we witness whole 'churches' that are demon possessed? Those that would insist that HANDLING serpents somehow shows their FAITH. Those that would 'drink poison' in an attempt to prove something.

We SEE throughout the OT the Hebrews/Jews learning to worship other gods from those whom they were taken captive. And even upon returning home continuing to send their 'children through the FIRE' in ritualistic worship of these 'other gods'. Is this just 'fantasy'? Or did these 'things' actually 'take place'? If they actually took place, then what FORCE was LEADING them to perform such horrendous acts? Certainly not their OWN inventions.

Blessings,

MEC

From our point of view, anyone without gnosis is constantly under demiurgic forces. Life is a complicated dance of spirits within a world of illusionary forms. You are a spirit, who moves around the physical plane in a vehicle that is imperfect and temporal. No one without gnosis can see themself as a spirit interacting with other spirits; the matter that makes up the physical is just so much pleasing illusion---- that there are spirits not trapped in the illusion should not come as a surprise.

If you can accept that, then knowing that God is love, there are a lot of spirits around, both trapped inside and outside the illusion that are not of God. The opposite of Love is not hate, but rather indifference. So yes, there are a lot of churches full of spirits that are not of God.

The illusion that we live in is but a poor reflection of the spiritual reality that underpins it. Just as there are Hitlers in this realm, as well as beings of lesser understanding, such as dogs and cats, lions and mice, this too is but a reflection. Not all un-Godly(read unloving) spirits are evil to the point of trying to posses that which is not theirs. Some will do harm simply because it is their nature. (Never try to pet a lion). Most are indifferent. No different than the man who walks by a salvation army bell ringer.

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2012

Soulgazer said:
From our point of view, anyone without gnosis is constantly under demiurgic forces. Life is a complicated dance of spirits within a world of illusionary forms. You are a spirit, who moves around the physical plane in a vehicle that is imperfect and temporal. No one without gnosis can see themself as a spirit interacting with other spirits; the matter that makes up the physical is just so much pleasing illusion---- that there are spirits not trapped in the illusion should not come as a surprise.

If you can accept that, then knowing that God is love, there are a lot of spirits around, both trapped inside and outside the illusion that are not of God. The opposite of Love is not hate, but rather indifference. So yes, there are a lot of churches full of spirits that are not of God.

The illusion that we live in is but a poor reflection of the spiritual reality that underpins it. Just as there are Hitlers in this realm, as well as beings of lesser understanding, such as dogs and cats, lions and mice, this too is but a reflection. Not all un-Godly(read unloving) spirits are evil to the point of trying to posses that which is not theirs. Some will do harm simply because it is their nature.

It sounds like you do believe in evil spirits, so it is unclear to me why you are responding to a protest against denials of the existence of evil spirits as if you were in disagreement with him too.

Soulgazer said:
(Never try to pet a lion). Most are indifferent. No different than the man who walks by a salvation army bell ringer.

I once saw some old black and white footage of a tame lion who responded to being petted under the chin just like a house-cat. And the tamer would wrestle with the lion, the lion would toss the tamer around like a rag doll with increadible intensity, but always very careful not to land with his weight on top of the man.

If you really know something about the spirit world as you claim, then you would be aware of the dramatic difference between the spirit of tame animals and that of feral animals. Tame animals may be like most of us, with individuated spirits. But even many pets have fully generic spirits. Some have a mix, and when asked by animal psychics the animal will reply that they are say, 25% individuated spirit and 75% generic cat spirit. But feral animals take this to an extreme, not only do they have a fully generic spirit that is sort of clone-like, but their spirit is more like a network. For example, cats that are tied to the feral cat network can always locate food. If you see a starving cat on the street it is either very sick, or an abandoned pet. Healthy feral cats never end up like that because the feral network guides them to food. It is a terrible trade-off however, because feral animals know nothing of love, all they know are strength and fear.

As an example, I once trapped three feral kittens from the colony in the yard behind me. I caught them only one day apart over three days, but even over such a short time there was a dramatic difference. The first kitten never onced hissed or tried to bite me, though he was scared. The second kitten was very feisty and I had a lot of trouble taming him. The third kitten was so out of control that I didn't even try to tame him. I believe that the dramatic difference in the temperment of the kittens was a direct result of the feral cat network. I also noticed out of the corner of my eye an all black shadow cat spirit in my apartment. I asked a friend of mine who is very psychic and he said that it was a probe from the feral cat network. He also said that the network did not want me taking any female kittens, but that it was alright with me taking the boys. And sure enough I was never able to trap any of the female kittens.

Something particularly interesting happened with the third kitten. He would cry for his mother a lot and one time I found him in the kitchen crying like that and I felt very sorry for it. And it knew that I felt sympathy for it and obviously felt nothing but contempt for my compassion. As I slowly moved my hand towards it to pet it, it held unusually still, not making any move to run away. Then when my hand was close enough he leaped forward and bit my finger below the quick of he nail. I was extremely sick with the flu so my temper was somehow shorter than usual, but the way that it had taken advantage of my sympathy to trick me into being vulnerable to being attacked suddenly enraged me to a very unusual degree, what it had done was very intentional and premeditated. I picked the kitten up and threw him down as hard as I could, then I did it again and the kitten almost passed out. I was immediately horrified with myself but the kitten looked up at me with huge wide eyes holding perfectly still. The kitten was suddenly transformed, all trace of his feral nature completely vanished and he crawled up into bed with me an hour later purring like crazy. I realized that my seemingly intensely over exaggerated reaction was actually prompted more by the Spirit than by my anger. To my shock he almost instantly tamed far better than either of the other two cats and I was able to find him a magic home with the great niece of one of my favorite authors (Roger Zelazny).

My very psychic friend's summation was that feral cats turn their noses up at sweetness. They consider sweetness to be nothing but weakness, which means death in their world. But once you show them who the boss is then they respond to sweetness. Also he said that a fully individuated soul popped into the kitten, completely replacing the feral network spirit that had been there before.

(I don't know why I spent so much time describing this, it ment a lot to me but I doubt that anyone else here has anything more than a passing experience with the spirit world, if they have any experience at all, which most seem not to.)

Soulgazer · Oct 7, 2012

Fascinated With God said:
It sounds like you do believe in evil spirits, so it is unclear to me why you are responding to a protest against denials of the existence of evil spirits as if you were in disagreement with him too

Well, I don't believe in wars, abortions, family feuds, or drug addiction, but they all happen. I was simply lending what moral support to the OP that I could muster. Interesting about the cat.

Forge3 · Oct 7, 2012

Demons cower before the love of God. It is as pain to them because they cannot return to it. And they have no power to stop its completion. So stay rooted in love.

Imagican · Oct 8, 2012

I know NOTHING about 'spirits' of animals. As far as I KNOW, animals are NOT EVEN 'spiritual' as indicated. They are certainly 'individual' in character but do NOT seem to be 'spiritual' in the sense of 'good' or 'evil'. They simply REACT. I have NEVER witnessed an EVIL animal. They FIGHT when cornered and try to protect their young. But the majority of the 'savageness' we witness is merely a matter of INSTINCT. They don't THINK about being 'savage' in their 'ways', they simply react instinctually to their situation.

I have NEVER read anything contained within the Word that indicates that animals will be JUDGED and therefore the indication is that they DO NOT possess 'spirits' like MEN.

In the story of Adam, the Bible tells us that God BREATHED INTO ADAM, the 'breath of LIFE' and that he BECAME a 'living soul'. I do NOT believe that this is HOW animals were formed. They are NOT 'living SOULS'. They are ANIMALS.

So no matter HOW much one LOVES their 'pet' and attempts to place them in the same REALM as man, animals are NOT the 'same' as men. Animals were NOT 'created in the image of God'. And of this I can ASSURE you.

We are NOT to treat animals poorly as we are not to treat ANYTHING that God has created POORLY. But we are also not to place unwarranted DEVOTION to animals either. They are here for our bidding and our dominion. While they can certainly be companions, they were NOT designed to be LOVED in the same MANNER that men are to love each other, (when I use the word MEN, it is usually representative of both men AND women. Mankind). For the Bible PLAINLY states that Eve was created FOR Adam BECAUSE there was not found a SUITABLE 'helpmate'.

Blessings,

MEC

Fascinated With God · Oct 8, 2012

Imagican said:
I know NOTHING about 'spirits' of animals. As far as I KNOW, animals are NOT EVEN 'spiritual' as indicated. They are certainly 'individual' in character but do NOT seem to be 'spiritual' in the sense of 'good' or 'evil'. They simply REACT. I have NEVER witnessed an EVIL animal. They FIGHT when cornered and try to protect their young. But the majority of the 'savageness' we witness is merely a matter of INSTINCT. They don't THINK about being 'savage' in their 'ways', they simply react instinctually to their situation.

With regards to animals being evil, in general I agree, but I think there are exceptions. In 1 Samuel 15:3, where God says to kill all the Amalekites, he also says to kill all "ox and sheep, camel and donkey" as well as all children and infants. This suggests to me that there was a spiritual infection in the animals that prevented the Jews from just taking the animals for themselves.

With regards to some pets being good, I more strongly disagree, but that is a personal opinion, all I really have to show for it scripturally are the repeated references in both the OT and NT to all creation worshiping God, the reference to the lion laying down with the lamb, and the repeated imagery of people riding horses in heaven. Also there is the evidence from near death experiences. Fully 1/6th of all near death experiences involve reuniting with a deceased pet.

Imagican said:
I have NEVER read anything contained within the Word that indicates that animals will be JUDGED and therefore the indication is that they DO NOT possess 'spirits' like MEN.

The spirit of animals is only barely addressed in scripture, namely in Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" The presupposition here though is that animals do have spirits.

Imagican said:
In the story of Adam, the Bible tells us that God BREATHED INTO ADAM, the 'breath of LIFE' and that he BECAME a 'living soul'. I do NOT believe that this is HOW animals were formed. They are NOT 'living SOULS'. They are ANIMALS.

Now this is clearly contradicted by scripture. The word for soul in Hebrew is nephesh, but in Isa. 19:10 nephesh is translated as fish. In several places in Genesis the word nephesh refers to all living creatures, not just humans.

Imagican said:
So no matter HOW much one LOVES their 'pet' and attempts to place them in the same REALM as man, animals are NOT the 'same' as men. Animals were NOT 'created in the image of God'. And of this I can ASSURE you.

God is love, and if a pet is acting out of genuine love and not just instinctually, then their consciousness is an image of God. The image of God is in the form of thought, not a physical form.

.

Phantasman · Oct 8, 2012

Fascinated With God said:
With regards to animals being evil, in general I agree, but I think there are exceptions. In 1 Samuel 15:3, where God says to kill all the Amalekites, he also says to kill all "ox and sheep, camel and donkey" as well as all children and infants. This suggests to me that there was a spiritual infection in the animals that prevented the Jews from just taking the animals for themselves.

With regards to some pets being good, I more strongly disagree, but that is a personal opinion, all I really have to show for it scripturally are the repeated references in both the OT and NT to all creation worshiping God, the reference to the lion laying down with the lamb, and the repeated imagery of people riding horses in heaven. Also there is the evidence from near death experiences. Fully 1/6th of all near death experiences involve reuniting with a deceased pet.

The spirit of animals is only barely addressed in scripture, namely in Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" The presupposition here though is that animals do have spirits.

Now this is clearly contradicted by scripture. The word for soul in Hebrew is nephesh, but in Isa. 19:10 nephesh is translated as fish. In several places in Genesis the word nephesh refers to all living creatures, not just humans.

God is love, and if a pet is acting out of genuine love and not just instinctually, then their consciousness is an image of God. The image of God is in the form of thought, not a physical form.

.

I believe animals have spirits, but no souls. They are not judged, as the soul is the part that God breathed into man, and the spirit is what is owned by God. When we ask for thanks for our food, it is because God loved us so much that (in most cases) an animal has been slain to provide for us. This message was given to Peter in Acts.........remember?

It amazes my how some dogs and cats relate in love to man, and have saved the lives of them as well.

Soulgazer · Oct 8, 2012

If there are no dogs in heaven, I don't want to be there.

Fascinated With God · Oct 8, 2012

Phantasman said:
I believe animals have spirits, but no souls.

Nephesh is used in exclusive reference to lower animals in twenty-two passages, and is rendered in nine different ways:

1. "creature" Gen 1:21, 24; 2:19; 9:10, 12. Lev 11:46.
2. "thing" Lev 11:10. Ezek 47:9.
3. "life" Gen 1:20, 30.
4. "the life" Gen 9:4. Deut 12:23. Prov 12:10.
5. "beast" Lev. 24:18
6. "the soul" Job 12:10
7. "breath" Job 41:21.
8. "fish" Isa. 19:10.
9. "her" Jer. 2:24. (female donkey)

So what do all these verses mean if animals do not have nephesh?

Phantasman said:
They are not judged, as the soul is the part that God breathed into man, and the spirit is what is owned by God.

Then how do we become spirit bodies in the resurrection if our spirit does not belong to us? (1 Cor 15)

Phantasman said:
When we ask for thanks for our food, it is because God loved us so much that (in most cases) an animal has been slain to provide for us. This message was given to Peter in Acts.........remember?

It sounds like you are thinking that I am a vegetarian or something...?

Phantasman said:
It amazes my how some dogs and cats relate in love to man, and have saved the lives of them as well.

God is love, and those who know love know God.

Soulgazer · Oct 8, 2012

Phantasman said:
I believe animals have spirits, but no souls. They are not judged, as the soul is the part that God breathed into man, and the spirit is what is owned by God. When we ask for thanks for our food, it is because God loved us so much that (in most cases) an animal has been slain to provide for us. This message was given to Peter in Acts.........remember?

It amazes my how some dogs and cats relate in love to man, and have saved the lives of them as well.

I've known several dogs that had souls.

Fascinated With God · Oct 8, 2012

Soulgazer said:
If there are no dogs in heaven, I don't want to be there.

There was a Twilight Zone on that. An old man who has died with his dog walks up to a gate and a man claiming to be Peter greets them and tells the old man that he is at the gates of heaven. But when the old man goes to enter Peter tells him that he can't bring his dog in, but there is a separate place for dogs. The old man refuses to leave his dog behind and somewhat dejected continues down the road. Eventually he meets an angel who tells the old man that Heaven does accept dogs and that the old man had actually been at the gates of hell. The reason the Devil didn't want to allow the dog in was because he would have smelled the sulfur and started barking right away.

Soulgazer · Oct 8, 2012

Fascinated With God said:
There was a Twilight Zone on that. An old man who has died with his dog walks up to a gate and a man claiming to be Peter greets them and tells the old man that he is at the gates of heaven. But when the old man goes to enter Peter tells him that he can't bring his dog in, but there is a separate place for dogs. The old man refuses to leave his dog behind and somewhat dejected continues down the road. Eventually he meets an angel who tells the old man that Heaven does accept dogs and that the old man had actually been at the gates of hell. The reason the Devil didn't want to allow the dog in was because he would have smelled the sulfur and started barking right away.

That's precious. I heard a version of it where the second angel said it was a test to see if the man would leave his best friend behind...if he had, he would have entered hell.

My heaven is loaded with animals.....if it wasn't it would be hell.

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