This can even break the frost on as hardhearted a guy like...

Cosmic Charlie

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The only problem was, along with German, you also got Auschwitz. With Japanese, you got the Rape of Nanking. And with Russian, you got Purges and the Gulag.

Allow me to correct:

With the NAZI's you get Auschwitz

With the Shinto Fundamentalist Militarists you get the Rape of Nanking

With Stalin you get purges and the Gulag.

To tar entire people's history with the acts of a few in one decade of the 20th Century is really kind of contemptible.

Don't you agree ?
 
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Rebekka

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Allow me to correct:

With the NAZI's you get Auschwitz

With the Shinto Fundamentalist Militarists you get the Rape of Nanking

With Stalin you get purges and the Gulag.

To tar entire people's history with the acts of a few in one decade of the 20th Century is really kind of contemptible.

Don't you agree ?
What he said.

Having to speak German isn't the problem.

Coming from a border region, as a boy my husband watched more German television than Dutch, he has more affinity with German politeness than with Dutch rudeness, etc etc. I wouldn't mind moving to Germany, nor would I mind if my country became a German province (or state, rather). (Shocking! I'm not a patriot.) I would mind living in a nazi regime.
 
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Wolseley

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Allow me to correct:

With the NAZI's you get Auschwitz

With the Shinto Fundamentalist Militarists you get the Rape of Nanking

With Stalin you get purges and the Gulag.

I was speaking about political systems---Fascism, Bushido, Communism. My apologies if I was unclear. My point was that if any of those three systems had triumphed, we'd be getting a lot more than just a change of language.

To tar entire people's history with the acts of a few in one decade of the 20th Century is really kind of contemptible.

Don't you agree ?

It was not my intention to tar anybody's entire history....as I said, I was talking about political systems. But, that having been said, when it comes to tarring an entire people's history with the acts of a few in one decade, let us not forget that a good portion of the world (including the majority of our own university professors) has tarred the United States as an imperialisitic, war-mongering, cowboy bully state, based mainly on Mr. Johnson's Southeast Asian Misadventure and a few subsequent entanglements.

All of the good we've ever accomplished, anywhere, has been utterly excised from the popular midset of these people, replaced with a constant repetitive critical hammering of our record from 1964 to 1975, and of our incursions into Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, Lebanon, and Kuwait; and of course our latest Southwest Asian Misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan.

All except for Mr. Clinton's Balkan Misadventure in the late 90's, of course----he was a Democrat, so he gets a free pass.
 
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MikeK

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Does anyone critsize Grenada? I wthought that one went pretty well.

Anyway, people are going to ask "Well, yeah, you were a revolutionary nation, allowing unprecedented freedom and opportunity - but what have you done lately?" I'm not sure you can blame them for that. It is going to take a long time to shake the immage of world police, thuggery, puppet government-supporting, etc. It can be done. Nobody really looks at Britain as imperialists anymore - because most or all of the people that experianced her as such are dead.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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No one forced them to go. Those "boys" enlisted themselves.

Personally, I don't understand where this animosity toward civilians comes from.


Not to serve 3 and 4 tours in a combat zone. In Vietnam, the boys did their 12 months and they were back to the world. The more tours a soldier does, it is obvious what this does for the odds of coming home in a flag draped coffin.

The psychological ramifications of serving multiple tours is going to be a ticking time bomb. The suicide rate in the military is through the roof. PTSD has become prevalent.

Don't you think that everyone in society should have to share in the same sacrifice ? To give a glib comment like, "They enlisted" supports the idea that the most current generation understands nothing of sacrifice and shared responsibility.
 
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simonpeter

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Not to serve 3 and 4 tours in a combat zone. In Vietnam, the boys did their 12 months and they were back to the world. The more tours a soldier does, it is obvious what this does for the odds of coming home in a flag draped coffin.

The psychological ramifications of serving multiple tours is going to be a ticking time bomb. The suicide rate in the military is through the roof. PTSD has become prevalent.

Don't you think that everyone in society should have to share in the same sacrifice ? To give a glib comment like, "They enlisted" supports the idea that the most current generation understands nothing of sacrifice and shared responsibility.

Doesn't change the fact that nobody forced them. They used their free will to make choices, fully aware of the consequences.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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Doesn't change the fact that nobody forced them. They used their free will to make choices, fully aware of the consequences.

Is this really your attitude toward he military ?

They joined, it's their problem ?

They get hurt, they get killed, it's their problem ?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Not to serve 3 and 4 tours in a combat zone. In Vietnam, the boys did their 12 months and they were back to the world. The more tours a soldier does, it is obvious what this does for the odds of coming home in a flag draped coffin.

The psychological ramifications of serving multiple tours is going to be a ticking time bomb. The suicide rate in the military is through the roof. PTSD has become prevalent.

Don't you think that everyone in society should have to share in the same sacrifice ? To give a glib comment like, "They enlisted" supports the idea that the most current generation understands nothing of sacrifice and shared responsibility.

But here's the problem with that line of thinking....
They enlisted.

They signed themselves over to the US military and everything that entails...I doubt any of them thought they were going to Vietnam. If any of them didn't realize the possibility they could die, get wounded, or even serve multiple tours, that's the fault of their own naivete and ignorance. Not mine, yours, or anyone else's.
 
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simonpeter

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Is this really your attitude toward he military ?

They joined, it's their problem ?

They get hurt, they get killed, it's their problem ?

All I am saying is, they knew about the consequences and joined, unlike those in Vietnam war who were drafted.
 
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Brooklyn Knight

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I remember it as if it were yesterday: as soon as I turned 18, I received that military I.D. card (Whatever it is called) and phone calls from the Navy, Army, and Marines. All this back in 2003. One of the things said were all these avenues that would open up for me, all the training and studies that would be provided if I enlisted. However, I objected to both wars and I did not want to sign up. I really couldn't shake off the marines.

You know what was said to me? Just because someone enlists, that doesn't mean they have to partake in these wars. A joke-and-a-half and an outright lie. But that brings up a problem: how many of these soldiers actually bought into it? As a matter of fact, how about the scrutiny the armed forces faces when they beef up their presence in impoverished and poor areas just to enlist potential candidates?

What's the recourse a person has when they join the military and were told one thing instead of the other, and they were duped into fighting a war with no logical basis for it in the first place? Nothing. At that point, you do as your told. Sure, they can flee to Canada or someplace else but that's desertion no matter how you try to slice it. And with repealing of "don't ask, don't tell," saying you are a homosexual and that you live an active gay lifestyle won't cut the mustard anymore: something men in fact used to dodge service in the military.

There also lies another problem when the government or the President is seeking out war or continuing a war but the number of men and women enlisting is low; they have a tendency to rely on the draft, and do I really need to bring up the problems associated with that?

Sure, there are people who enlist knowing full well what everything entails, knowing the consequences...but can you really say the same about everyone?
 
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Ana the Ist

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I remember it as if it were yesterday: as soon as I turned 18, I received that military I.D. card (Whatever it is called) and phone calls from the Navy, Army, and Marines. All this back in 2003. One of the things said were all these avenues that would open up for me, all the training and studies that would be provided if I enlisted. However, I objected to both wars and I did not want to sign up. I really couldn't shake off the marines.

You know what was said to me? Just because someone enlists, that doesn't mean they have to partake in these wars. A joke-and-a-half and an outright lie. But that brings up a problem: how many of these soldiers actually bought into it? As a matter of fact, how about the scrutiny the armed forces faces when they beef up their presence in impoverished and poor areas just to enlist potential candidates?

What's the recourse a person has when they join the military and were told one thing instead of the other, and they were duped into fighting a war with no logical basis for it in the first place? Nothing. At that point, you do as your told. Sure, they can flee to Canada or someplace else but that's desertion no matter how you try to slice it. And with repealing of "don't ask, don't tell," saying you are a homosexual and that you live an active gay lifestyle won't cut the mustard anymore: something men in fact used to dodge service in the military.

There also lies another problem when the government or the President is seeking out war or continuing a war but the number of men and women enlisting is low; they have a tendency to rely on the draft, and do I really need to bring up the problems associated with that?

Sure, there are people who enlist knowing full well what everything entails, knowing the consequences...but can you really say the same about everyone?

No, I cannot...but I still don't see what that has to do with me. If someone enlists into the armed forces, but somehow doesn't think they will have to participate in war, again, that is the fault of their own ignorance. I don't know exactly what was said to you, but I didn't see anything that would constitute an outright lie in what you've written. If someone enlists into a DEP contract, they still have until the day they take their oath and go on active duty to change their mind.

To anyone who thought they would enlist, receive the training, educational benefits, housing loans, etc. without having to fight for their country I have very little (if any) pity for. It would seem they want a free ride to a better life without putting in the work for it. Much like the worker who shows up late every day and never does his job in hopes that someday he will be fired and begin to collect unemployment, they seem to want a handout at my (taxpayers) expense.

I do feel sorry to anyone who was lied to by a recruiter and realized it much too late, but they did sign a contract. The contract does state what you are and aren't entitled to. If the contract says one thing, the recruiter says another, and the enlistee isn't bright enough to see that he is being duped....again, I don't see why I or anyone else should be to blame.

Before I finished high school my class took an ASVAB test (I think that was the name). It was a general intelligence and practical skills sort of test. I took it more seriously than some of my classmates and managed to score in the 99th percentile. For about the next three months I was hounded by recruiters from every branch trying to talk me into speaking to them at the recruiting office. I finally accepted an invite from a marine recruiter who gave me the big sell once I was in his office. He told me they would pay for my college after just two years, pay for my house, pay for my healthcare. All attractive things since I didn't come from wealth and needed a way to pay for those things anyway. He told me waves of females of all types would be crawling to my feet since every woman loves marines. That I was too smart to risk being put in a dangerous job and I would likely get something in psy-ops (I had shown an interest) where I would live comfortably while I made a big name for myself, heck, he said I'd probably be his boss 3-4 years from then if I stayed with it.

When he put the papers in front of me to sign, I simply told him I needed 24hrs to think about it...he pushed a little harder but I got out of there. When I got back home it didn't take more than 2 hours for me to decide that nothing he offered me was worth being shot at for. None of it was worth being blown up for. He called the next day and I turned him down...and turned him down every time he called for the next six months.

Any way you slice it, it will ultimately be on the enlistee if things go bad for him. If you really insist on placing part of the blame on me for whenever a serviceman loses a life, gets hurt, or otherwise feels he got a bad deal...then I must also be given part of the credit for every person the military has helped in one way or another. It's a stupid statement and completely indefensible.
 
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Antigone

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No. If someone enlists into the armed forces, but somehow doesn't think they will have to participate in war, again, that is the fault of their own ignorance.

Not necessarily. You can enlist in the army as a teacher, trainer, strategic expert, historian, consultant, technician, logistics expert etc. without ever having to see combat or even go abroad. The problem is that during a war, by far most people will have to go into combat, yet if you are broke and desperate for a job you'll be willing to believe whatever they tell you. I don't blame the people who fell for this, and I think the army is wrong to imply that it's possible to have a job and not be deployed to combat zones, because chances of that happening are slim.
 
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Brooklyn Knight

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No, I cannot...but I still don't see what that has to do with me. If someone enlists into the armed forces, but somehow doesn't think they will have to participate in war, again, that is the fault of their own ignorance. I don't know exactly what was said to you, but I didn't see anything that would constitute an outright lie in what you've written. If someone enlists into a DEP contract, they still have until the day they take their oath and go on active duty to change their mind.

But then you say this:

I do feel sorry to anyone who was lied to by a recruiter and realized it much too late, but they did sign a contract.

Even with the contract, have you seen it? It isn't one slip with everything presented to you clearly.

The contract does state what you are and aren't entitled to. If the contract says one thing, the recruiter says another, and the enlistee isn't bright enough to see that he is being duped....again, I don't see why I or anyone else should be to blame.

Depending on what is said first, that verbal contract takes precedence over the written contract, and we have numerous sources that have said they were told one thing but then end up doing another. In other cases, it doesn't matter that your name was signed on a piece of paper if you have evidence of an earlier verbal contract, and therein lies the problem: these recruiters - while they do get scrutinized - don't face any repercussions for that tactic.


Any way you slice it, it will ultimately be on the enlistee if things go bad for him. If you really insist on placing part of the blame on me for whenever a serviceman loses a life, gets hurt, or otherwise feels he got a bad deal...then I must also be given part of the credit for every person the military has helped in one way or another. It's a stupid statement and completely indefensible.

Guy, why do they vulture around low-income, poverty stricken communities? Cats been long out of the bag with that tactic. A lot of these people are stuck between a rock and a hard place: either continue living in squalor or buy into the hype that there's serious money and opportunities waiting for you on the other end.

And let's not just focus on newer recruits: different circumstances for someone who enlisted under Clinton and Bush, and there still is that other problem if people do not enlist and you've still got someone seeking war: draft.

Seeing as you don't feel pity for these guys, at least be thankful for them: no willing participants and it doesn't matter if you want to serve or not, if you're called to duty, that's that.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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All I am saying is, they knew about the consequences and joined, unlike those in Vietnam war who were drafted.

Actually I pro-draft

If we, as a country aren't willing to be all in, then we should stay out.

Putting your kids on the line so of crystallizes the issue for you.

It is a misunderstanding of history that draft age kids were the majority protestors and anti-war activists.

Most kids under 20 were, at least until about 1969 pro-war.

It was their parents, Vietnam vets, Boy Scout leaders, just about anyone who looked at 18 years old's and imagined them with a gun and were sickened by the image that made up the majority of the anti-war crowd.

It's a lot easier when you know they can be picked up and put in uniform.
 
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FearlessFreep

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I found the pictures sad. Nothing has been accomplished in Afghanistan. Most of America doesn't participate in the sacrifice.
I didn't agree that troops should be in Afghanistan when Bush was president, and I don't agree with Obama keeping them there for all his years as president. We should have learned from Russia's war with Afghanistan that it's a losing proposition. I actually agree with Obama's use of drones to kill the terrorists. But if a Republican president were to do the same thing, the Democrats would have him tried and executed for war crimes.
 
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Wolseley

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Great nations have been losing in Afghanistan clear back to Alexander the Great. The British, the Turks, the Russians, now us.

As somebody once said, Afghanistan "is where empires go to die".
 
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