In the News: Was Jesus Married?

Gxg (G²) · Sep 20, 2012

GuardianShua said:
Being married does not prevent Yashua from being the Messiah.

RKO said:
The story about the Coptic papyrus in which jesus allegedly said "My wife..."

If it were proveable that Jesus was married, (it's not) how would it matter to you? .

If I may say,

I'm always intrigued by what seems to often happen whenever people think Christ had to be married. There were many in the time of Christ who did choose spouses and it was an expected norm for Jewish men to be married (with even the apostles themselves being married ( Mark 1:29-31 / Mark 1 /Luke 4:37-39 , 1 Corinthians 9:4-6 1 Corinthians 9 )...for marriage is a sacred covenant in Judaism and a honorable institution...a workshop of God's kingdom for others to come closer to Him. But as Christ even noted that marriage physically wasn't for everyone (Matthew 19:9-11 /Matthew 19 ) and he was radical himself, I do wonder why it's hard to imagine that Christ could've chosen to remain single...for it's not as if being single means one is automatically "less of a believer" or less glorifying to the Lord than being married.

Again, IMHO, it doesn't seem to be an issue to imagine Christ as single...not because he didn't have the right to get married or because it would have somehow harmed his Divinity like many claim (as He made the institution/is Holy regardless)---but because he was unique in how he approached things. It's not like the DaVinci code film/conspiracy....

Papyrus fragment: front. Karen L. King 2012

Some good articles that seemed to touch on the issue:

If nothing else, I'm glad that the discovery does bring up discussion on whether he had a female disciple (which often seems to come up in regards to the levels of authority women have and the ways they're to be percieved, more discussed here and here), seeing how these debates date to the early centuries of Christianity, scholars say.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 20, 2012

ChavaK said:
ChavaK said:

In my view, it would be weird for the moshiach not to be married.quote]

Click to expand...

Can definately understand why that'd be the case. I'd add that it's also weird to consider that they'll not be marriage in heaven/new earth happening as if the Lord made an institution good/holy and then acted as if he hated it....

Avodat · Sep 21, 2012

Easy G (G²);61422680 said:
Can definately understand why that'd be the case. I'd add that it's also weird to consider that they'll not be marriage in heaven/new earth happening as if the Lord made an institution good/holy and then acted as if he hated it....

Click to expand...

Marriage is given as the means of procreation - there is no indication that procreation will occur in heaven ergo there will be no marriage, just as Yeshua said and as Paul realised, too.

visionary · Sep 21, 2012

Men were not expected to get married until later in life. Yeshua was on a mission. It was not to settle down and get married and have children.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 21, 2012

Avodat said:
Marriage is given as the means of procreation - .

Marriage is also given as a means of glorifying the Lord when it comes to two becoming one. It was never just about having children.

there is no indication that procreation will occur in heaven ergo there will be no marriage, just as Yeshua said and as Paul realised, too

No indication that marriage will not continue since Yeshua never said it wouldn't happen nor did Paul. That has been debated for ages due to understanding what it means to be like the angels and what type of marriage is in view---although this has already been discussed before (here and #19). Shalom

Gxg (G²) · Sep 21, 2012

visionary said:
Men were not expected to get married until later in life.

There did often seem to be expectation to get married at early ages, paticularly in the case of women.

Yeshua was on a mission. It was not to settle down and get married and have children.

He definately was on mission. That said, having children and being married wouldn't necessarily keep him from being on mission (IMHO).

Avodat · Sep 22, 2012

Easy G (G²);61431934 said:
Marriage is also given as a means of glorifying the Lord when it comes to two becoming one. It was never just about having children.
No indication that marriage will not continue since Yeshua never said it wouldn't happen nor did Paul. That has been debated for ages due to understanding what it means to be like the angels and what type of marriage is in view---although this has already been discussed before (here and #19). Shalom

What I actually said was:
Marriage is given as the means of procreation - there is no indication that procreation will occur in heaven ergo there will be no marriage, just as Yeshua said and as Paul realised, too.

Yes, marriage is about more that procreation - I didn't want to write a 500 word essay on what it is, according to the Bible

It is clear from Mark that people will neither marry, nor be given in marriage - they will be like angels. His rebuke here is that the people were in error of their understanding of Torah in supposing that the rule on earth, as shown in 12:18ff, would apply in heaven.

We know that, when the brothers get to heaven, all 7 of them, and the widow to whom thay have all been married, the marriages that were recognised on earth will not be valid in heaven; that is clear from Yeshua's teaching at this point. We know that people will neither marry, nor be given in marriage, in heaven, again from Yeshua's teaching here. The weight of evidence on this is very clear. A related subject is his comment about being LIKE angels - as there is no marriage in heaven, either earthly forms or heavenly forms, angels themselves are obviously NOT married. We shall, therefore, be LIKE them, in this respect.

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 7 counselled people NOT to marry because he, and many in his time, believed the resurrection was imminent - therefore, according to Yeshua's teaching, there would be no point in getting married. Stay as you are, says Paul, if you can. If you can't and you must marry it is not a sin. If you cannot control yourselves (until the Resurrection comes), then it is best to get married, and not sin by doing those things married people do, but outside of marriage, for that would be sin.

I didn't say that Paul said there would be no marriage in heaven. I said he realised it - a very different concept.

GuardianShua · Sep 22, 2012

Matthew 22:30
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Mark 12:25
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Luke 20:35
But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

Avodat · Sep 22, 2012

GuardianShua said:
Matthew 22:30
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Mark 12:25
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Luke 20:35
But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

That's the evidence

Gxg (G²) · Sep 23, 2012

Avodat said:
What I actually said was:
Marriage is given as the means of procreation - there is no indication that procreation will occur in heaven ergo there will be no marriage, just as Yeshua said and as Paul realised, too.

Yes, marriage is about more that procreation - I didn't want to write a 500 word essay on what it is, according to the Bible

Didn't say you said marriage was only about procreation...as noting where it was about more than having children doesn't indicate that you didn't think there was more to it than that

It is clear from Mark that people will neither marry, nor be given in marriage - they will be like angels. His rebuke here is that the people were in error of their understanding of Torah in supposing that the rule on earth, as shown in 12:18ff, would apply in heaven.

We know that, when the brothers get to heaven, all 7 of them, and the widow to whom thay have all been married, the marriages that were recognised on earth will not be valid in heaven; that is clear from Yeshua's teaching at this point. We know that people will neither marry, nor be given in marriage, in heaven, again from Yeshua's teaching here. The weight of evidence on this is very clear.

There was a specific type of marriage that Yeshua had in mind when it came to his rebuke to the people. Things would never be exactly the same as it was on the earth..and the ways marriage was treated flippantly in the OT till the time of Christ, many had a perverse view of marriage anyhow.

As said elsewhere, there are many valid arguments I've heard that seemed to be very intriguing on the issue of what marriage will look like in Heaven, one from an article one can look up online, under the name of "Marriage In Heaven << What the Bible says "(). As said best by the author (for an excerpt):

There is no point in the Lord revealing more truth to those who are unwilling to believe what they already have. "If I have told you earthly things, and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you of heavenly things?" (John 3:12) "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:31)

This is why the Lord so often spoke in parables. Those who were willing to believe would understand the hidden meaning. Others would not. So the Lord told His disciples, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to the rest it is given in parables; that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." (Luke 8:10) In fact when speaking with the crowds, the Lord always spoke in parables "as they were able to hear it, and without a parable he did not speak unto them."(Mark 10: 33, 34; Matthew 13:34, 35) There were many things that even the disciples were not ready to believe. Jesus told them, "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.... These things I have spoken to you in figurative language, but the time is coming when I shall no more speak to you in figurative language." (John 16:12, 25)

This is why the Lord so often spoke in parables. Those who were willing to believe would understand the hidden meaning. Others would not. So the Lord told His disciples, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to the rest it is given in parables; that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." (Luke 8:10) In fact when speaking with the crowds, the Lord always spoke in parables "as they were able to hear it, and without a parable he did not speak unto them."(Mark 10: 33, 34; Matthew 13:34, 35) There were many things that even the disciples were not ready to believe. Jesus told them, "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.... These things I have spoken to you in figurative language, but the time is coming when I shall no more speak to you in figurative language." (John 16:12, 25)

Looking at the Context
Keeping in mind that the Lord has much more to tell us about life after death than He was able to reveal at the time of the New Testament, let us consider the question of whether there is marriage after death. There are many passages which bear on this question, but there is one verse which often seems to be used to the exclusion of others: "In the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage." (Matthew 22:30) Taken out of context, this passage does seem to say that there is no marriage after death. Very often, however, a careful examination of the context will completely change the meaning of a passage. To be sure that we get the correct meaning of the passage, let us look at the whole context carefully.

The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were with us seven brothers. The first dies after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. Likewise the second also, and the third even to the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her."

Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. (Matthew 22:23-33. See also Mark 12:18-27, Luke 20:27-40)

What Kind of Marriage Does It Mean?
Now let us consider what this passage actually means. Note that marrying and being given in marriage do not refer to the married state, but only to the wedding itself. The question focused on a woman who had married seven times for apparently worldly reasons, with no evidence of having formed a spiritual bond with any of her husbands. The Sadducees were not talking about a true marriage, but merely about a legal ritual--an outward coupling without the inner meaning.

The Lord answered their question in terms of their own idea of marriage, which was quite different than ours is today. In those days, the marriage contract was generally made between the husband and the father of the bride. The bride was seldom given any say in the matter. Women were treated almost like property. To be "given" in marriage meant they could be given by parents to an unknown man (Genesis 24, 21:21), or given as a reward. (Judges 1:12, 1 Sam 17:25) They could be bought and sold, (Genesis. 29:20, Ruth 4:10, Hosea 3:2, 12:12) or even kidnapped. (Judges 21:21-23) This is kind of worldly coupling the Lord was referring to when He said, "The children of this age marry and are given in marriage." (Luke 20:34) Perhaps we should take the saying "In the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage," to mean, "In heaven there is no buying and selling of women and legal contracting such as you are used to."

Did They Really Want to Know?

The Sadducees were not actually interested in learning about marriage after death. They did not even believe in the possibility of life after death. All they wanted was to discredit the Lord's teaching about life after death. They would neither have listened nor understood if the Lord had tried to explain the difference between a genuine marriage based on love and trust and the kind of legal, physical coupling they thought of as marriage. The Sadducees were among those who would "see without seeing, and hear without hearing"--the kind of people the Lord could speak to only in parables. (Mark 10:33, 34)

Even the Lord's disciples had difficulty with the concept that marriage should be enduring. When the Lord taught that marriage should last to the end of life in this world, the disciples replied, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry." But Jesus said to them, "All cannot accept this saying but only those to whom it has been given." (Matthew 19:10, 11) Now if He told them about earthly marriage and they could not believe, how could He possibly tell them of heavenly marriage? This is a strong indication that what the Lord said to them about marriage in heaven was spoken in a parable, which would not be understood until a later time. It may be a mistake to take the passage too literally.

When the Lord said that in heaven they neither marry nor are given in marriage He was speaking the truth. However, taken in context, the passage does not tell what heaven is like, but what it is not like, namely, that in heaven they do not arrange weddings in the same way that people do on earth.

Other Teachings about Marriage
So far we have spoken of only one passage. However, there are many passages which might give us an indication of whether marriage continues after death, even if it is not in so many words. When God first created people, He made them male and female. (Genesis 1:27) He saw that what He had done was very good. (Genesis 1:31) If it is very good, why should it not continue after death? Jesus said, "They are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore, God has joined together, let no one put asunder." (Matthew 19:6, Mark 10:9) God Himself said, "It is not good that the man should be alone." (Genesis 2:18) "The Lord, the God of Israel, says that He hates putting away." (Malachi 2:16) If He hates putting away, why would He put away every wife and husband from each other by death?

Of course, others may disagree in light of how marriage on this Earth points to/mirrors the reality of what our Marriage to the Lord is to be like.....and on many things, I can definately see validity. Where I stand, Male and Female will continue ( Isa. 43:6-7 ) and Rev. 21:5 tells us that "He who sits on the throne will make "ALL THINGS NEW"...with Jer. 31:22 giving a glimpse of what this "new creation" will be like since it involves both a man and a woman.

IGod noted in Genesis 2 that it wasn't good for man to BE alone...and the entire purpose of being fruitful and multiplying required one to have a mate. Unless God's plan/statements in Eden were inferior to what will happen in the future. Jesus referenced the issue in Matthew 19:1-12 when it came to his making clear that God hated dicorce and that God desired for couples to stay together for life.

A related subject is his comment about being LIKE angels - as there is no marriage in heaven, either earthly forms or heavenly forms

Bible never says that there is no such things as heavenly forms of union. Marriage on the earth isn't translated as the same in heaven, as that'd be like saying one will not have close friendship or relationship with the person who was their spouse on the earth or that people won't recognize others. Marriage is a Sacrament, or Holy Mystery, so when it is sanctified by Christ's Church and a man and woman are bound together it becomes eternal, just as the marriage between Christ and The Church is eternal.

That isn't to mean there will be intercourse in heaven, or that the relationship is just as it is on Earth. There is a difference, a bond of love and one-ness in Heaven that only begins here on Earth and will be perfected in Heaven, just as we do with our relationship with God here on Earth. The principle behind marriage as it concerns the relationship itself not ending because of something as trivial as death must be remembered.

And we still have the reality of what Revelation discusses when it comes to children born in the age to come.

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 7 counselled people NOT to marry because he, and many in his time, believed the resurrection was imminent - therefore, according to Yeshua's teaching, there would be no point in getting married. Stay as you are, says Paul, if you can. If you can't and you must marry it is not a sin. If you cannot control yourselves (until the Resurrection comes), then it is best to get married, and not sin by doing those things married people do, but outside of marriage, for that would be sin. I didn't say that Paul said there would be no marriage in heaven. I said he realised it - a very different concept.

Not according to what Paul said, who noted plainly in I Corinthians 7 that he wished others would remain single as He was since it would lead to not being divided (in his view ) and able to go after the Lord in a more single-focused manner ..and he noted how what he did was a gift from God (I Corinthians 7:6-7, I Corinthians 7:32-35)

Ultimate marriage is between Christ and His bride (the Church), which Paul discussed often (I Corinthians 5 being one of the places)--but that is not the same as saying all forms of marriage as an institution will not be present on some level in the life to come.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 23, 2012

GuardianShua said:
Matthew 22:30
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Mark 12:25
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Luke 20:35
But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

Those scriptures have been debated often when it comes to understanding the entirety of scripture and what Christ said on the issue of marriage. I agree with others who've often noted that not all stages shown in Genesis were ever fully reflective of how God meant things to be...in the same manner that seasons of life occur.

The scriptures coming immediately to mind are the following:

Mark 12:18-26

Marriage at the Resurrection
18Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 19"Teacher," they said, "Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and have children for his brother. 20Now there were seven brothers. The first one married and died without leaving any children. 21The second one married the widow, but he also died, leaving no child. It was the same with the third. 22In fact, none of the seven left any children. Last of all, the woman died too. 23At the resurrection[a] whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"
24Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?

Luke 20:34-36
34Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Other versions of the instance are in Matthew 22:23-33.
With the Luke version, that one seems to be much more direct on the issue.....and for another description of "that age", one can go to Acts 4:2 and I Peter 1:3.

And on the issue, it goes without saying (IMHO) that what life will be like after the resurrection is far beyond our ability to understand or imagine fully (Isaiah 64:4, I Corinthians 2:9, etc)----so I want to be careful as to avoid making formula out of anything where full details are not given. Some of my thoughs are that "being like the angels in heaven" means living without an exclusive lifelong marriage commitment to one person. With Jesus' statement, it doesn't necessarily mean that people won't recognize their partners in the coming kingdom...as our relationships in this life are limited by time/sin and death.....and surely people will know their loved ones in heaven ( Matthew 8:11, Luke 9:30-33). It seems that Jesus' statement deals with how God's new order will not be an extension of this life and that the same physical/natural rules will not apply in all instances as here/before.......and that the joy/love of close relationships in heaven will be more rather than less than it is here on the Earth.

Jesus' reference to the "power of God" suggest that God is able to establish relationships of even deeper friendship, joy, and love in the life to come....for although God has not revealed anything more beyond this, what we do know is that the Word declares that the eternal glories awaiting the redeemed will be more splendid than anyone can begin to ask or think (I Corinthians 2:9, Ephesians 3:20). For if we can imagine it, God can go beyond it.

I agree with others who say that Jesus' comment in verse 25 was not intended to be the final word on marriage in heaven....as who knows if something far grander than the way marriage was set up before is to come instead. Some of it I've discussed before on the Messianic Jewish forums, as seen here when it came to the possibility that Jesus's words on marriage were more so about correcting the idea of marriage the Sadducees had in mind where it was focused on contracts/unfaithfulness rather than marriage the way that God saw[/url] it. And with Jesus's answer, it was more so a refusal to answer the Sadducees' riddle/fall into their trap..as their real question was not about marriage as much as it was about the doctrine of the resurrection--which they already were against. They tried to trap him theologically because they assumed that those believing in a resurrection life think it is like the present life fully....suggesting that a woman who has been married more than once will be found guilty of incest after the resurrection...and hoping to show the idea of the resurrection absurd. But their error flowed from their lack of knowledge, of course, on the Power of God to create a much more wonderful than anyone can now imagine.

And as Jesus told them, to know what heaven will be like is not as important as to know God's power (I Corinthians 15, Philippians 3:5-11).

Going back to the issue of seasons...

If marriage was not meant to be a pernmanent fixture----as much as it may seem odd, it can make sense in a myriad of ways. My friends and I used to battle on the issue all the time---with one of my bros always saying that there'd be none of the things we experience in the earthly realm with marriage like the joy of passionate sex or companionship...as in his view, that's only to reflect the relationship we..the church.. have/will consumate fully with Christ in the Heavens and the Wedding Banquet according to Ephesians 5:22-33, Matthew 22:1-14 and Revelation 19:6-8 ..and though marriage/man not being alone was something God said was "good" in perfection (Genesis 2:19-24), there's a view that holds to the concept of man at that time not being made complete....beliving that the Perfection Account was an issue of man being glorified rather than being fulfilled---with that being interupted, the image of God being tarnished...and Christ restoring the process/making it even more wonderful.

In example, consider what was said before when the Bible shows man on a DIET with eating trees/food that God had outlined. As the Bible already makes clear that man was not made immortal/was in a process of going toward immortality, as seen in Genesis 3 when man is forbidden to eat from the Tree of Life.

On the issue of things not being "fixed"/adjusments being made, Connecting that all back with the theory behind temporary marriage, man having a diet to sustain him for the time he had on the EARTH WOULD MAKE SENSE.....as there were still things missing that God took note of---when the Lord said, "Its not good for man to be alone".....and according to the view, as man was in a process of transformation, at that time having a mate was necessary....if for no other reason, for a time of multiplying/being fruitful ( Genesis 5:2-4 ) and having the ability to reflect the Lord fully ( Genesis 5:1-3 )

God said in Malachi 2:10-16 and other passages ( Proverbs 2:17, Ezekiel 16:8-14, Matthew 19:1-12, etc) that marriage is a Divine covenant, a three-way relationship between a couple and the Lord, that was meant to glorify Him by producing GODLY OFFSPRING.......in line with Gods original mandate to man to be fruitful/multiply in Genesis 1:26-31. Jude 1:13-15 echoes the same thought when it comes to the prophesy that many in God's name would come forth after Him----an expansion of God's Heart to have a LARGE FAMILY of others who'd reflect him......children of faith.

The motif of "being fruitful and multiplying" recurs throughout Genesis with association with Divine Blessing (Genesis 9:1-7, Genesis 17:20, Genesis 28:3, Genesis 35:11, Genesis 48:4, ec)==serving as the basis for the worldview that raising Godly Children is apart of God's creation for mankind.....as his plan was that the whole earth be populated by those who know Him/serve wisely as his vice-regents or representives. And with the charge to "subdue the earth/have dominion", the idea is that man/woman are to make the earth's resources beneficial for themselves, which implies that they would investigate/develop Earth's resources to make them useful for human beings generally, responsibily using things with the same sense of care that God has toward the whole of his creation (Psalm 8, Genesis 2). And "Dominion/Subdue" mandate provides the the foundation for wise/scientific and technological development and reflecting God by creating as He does.

With that in mind, one factor to consider is that being fruitful/multiplying does not necessarily mean that it was meant to be done FOR ALL TIME----as its possible for a LIMIT on multiplication occurring once something has been effectively filled....with enough made to subdue to it according to God's designs. Hence, why its possible that even in the Creation Account God could have made marriage then with a starting/ending point somewhere........with the time of its institution being something that would reflect his heart/relationship with man and then, once being fulfilled at one stage, opening up the door to go into another phase/ something far more grand than can be imagined.

And in the time Adam had to be fruitful/multiply, He had to be given SOMETHING to eat in the meantime before he went up..

Avodat · Sep 23, 2012

Easy G (G²);61439483 said:
Didn't say you said marriage was only about procreation...as noting where it was about more than having children doesn't indicate that you didn't think there was more to it than that
There was a specific type of marriage that Yeshua had in mind when it came to his rebuke to the people. Things would never be exactly the same as it was on the earth..and the ways marriage was treated flippantly in the OT till the time of Christ, many had a perverse view of marriage anyhow.

As said elsewhere, there are many valid arguments I've heard that seemed to be very intriguing on the issue of what marriage will look like in Heaven, one from an article one can look up online, under the name of "Marriage In Heaven << What the Bible says "(). As said best by the author (for an excerpt):
There is no point in the Lord revealing more truth to those who are unwilling to believe what they already have. "If I have told you earthly things, and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you of heavenly things?" (John 3:12) "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:31)

This is why the Lord so often spoke in parables. Those who were willing to believe would understand the hidden meaning. Others would not. So the Lord told His disciples, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to the rest it is given in parables; that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." (Luke 8:10) In fact when speaking with the crowds, the Lord always spoke in parables "as they were able to hear it, and without a parable he did not speak unto them."(Mark 10: 33, 34; Matthew 13:34, 35) There were many things that even the disciples were not ready to believe. Jesus told them, "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.... These things I have spoken to you in figurative language, but the time is coming when I shall no more speak to you in figurative language." (John 16:12, 25)

This is why the Lord so often spoke in parables. Those who were willing to believe would understand the hidden meaning. Others would not. So the Lord told His disciples, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to the rest it is given in parables; that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." (Luke 8:10) In fact when speaking with the crowds, the Lord always spoke in parables "as they were able to hear it, and without a parable he did not speak unto them."(Mark 10: 33, 34; Matthew 13:34, 35) There were many things that even the disciples were not ready to believe. Jesus told them, "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.... These things I have spoken to you in figurative language, but the time is coming when I shall no more speak to you in figurative language." (John 16:12, 25)

Looking at the Context
Keeping in mind that the Lord has much more to tell us about life after death than He was able to reveal at the time of the New Testament, let us consider the question of whether there is marriage after death. There are many passages which bear on this question, but there is one verse which often seems to be used to the exclusion of others: "In the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage." (Matthew 22:30) Taken out of context, this passage does seem to say that there is no marriage after death. Very often, however, a careful examination of the context will completely change the meaning of a passage. To be sure that we get the correct meaning of the passage, let us look at the whole context carefully.

The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were with us seven brothers. The first dies after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. Likewise the second also, and the third even to the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her."

Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. (Matthew 22:23-33. See also Mark 12:18-27, Luke 20:27-40)

What Kind of Marriage Does It Mean?
Now let us consider what this passage actually means. Note that marrying and being given in marriage do not refer to the married state, but only to the wedding itself. The question focused on a woman who had married seven times for apparently worldly reasons, with no evidence of having formed a spiritual bond with any of her husbands. The Sadducees were not talking about a true marriage, but merely about a legal ritual--an outward coupling without the inner meaning.

The Lord answered their question in terms of their own idea of marriage, which was quite different than ours is today. In those days, the marriage contract was generally made between the husband and the father of the bride. The bride was seldom given any say in the matter. Women were treated almost like property. To be "given" in marriage meant they could be given by parents to an unknown man (Genesis 24, 21:21), or given as a reward. (Judges 1:12, 1 Sam 17:25) They could be bought and sold, (Genesis. 29:20, Ruth 4:10, Hosea 3:2, 12:12) or even kidnapped. (Judges 21:21-23) This is kind of worldly coupling the Lord was referring to when He said, "The children of this age marry and are given in marriage." (Luke 20:34) Perhaps we should take the saying "In the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage," to mean, "In heaven there is no buying and selling of women and legal contracting such as you are used to."

Did They Really Want to Know?

The Sadducees were not actually interested in learning about marriage after death. They did not even believe in the possibility of life after death. All they wanted was to discredit the Lord's teaching about life after death. They would neither have listened nor understood if the Lord had tried to explain the difference between a genuine marriage based on love and trust and the kind of legal, physical coupling they thought of as marriage. The Sadducees were among those who would "see without seeing, and hear without hearing"--the kind of people the Lord could speak to only in parables. (Mark 10:33, 34)

Even the Lord's disciples had difficulty with the concept that marriage should be enduring. When the Lord taught that marriage should last to the end of life in this world, the disciples replied, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry." But Jesus said to them, "All cannot accept this saying but only those to whom it has been given." (Matthew 19:10, 11) Now if He told them about earthly marriage and they could not believe, how could He possibly tell them of heavenly marriage? This is a strong indication that what the Lord said to them about marriage in heaven was spoken in a parable, which would not be understood until a later time. It may be a mistake to take the passage too literally.

When the Lord said that in heaven they neither marry nor are given in marriage He was speaking the truth. However, taken in context, the passage does not tell what heaven is like, but what it is not like, namely, that in heaven they do not arrange weddings in the same way that people do on earth.

Other Teachings about Marriage
So far we have spoken of only one passage. However, there are many passages which might give us an indication of whether marriage continues after death, even if it is not in so many words. When God first created people, He made them male and female. (Genesis 1:27) He saw that what He had done was very good. (Genesis 1:31) If it is very good, why should it not continue after death? Jesus said, "They are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore, God has joined together, let no one put asunder." (Matthew 19:6, Mark 10:9) God Himself said, "It is not good that the man should be alone." (Genesis 2:18) "The Lord, the God of Israel, says that He hates putting away." (Malachi 2:16) If He hates putting away, why would He put away every wife and husband from each other by death?

Of course, others may disagree in light of how marriage on this Earth points to/mirrors the reality of what our Marriage to the Lord is to be like.....and on many things, I can definately see validity. Where I stand, Male and Female will continue ( Isa. 43:6-7 ) and Rev. 21:5 tells us that "He who sits on the throne will make "ALL THINGS NEW"...with Jer. 31:22 giving a glimpse of what this "new creation" will be like since it involves both a man and a woman.

IGod noted in Genesis 2 that it wasn't good for man to BE alone...and the entire purpose of being fruitful and multiplying required one to have a mate. Unless God's plan/statements in Eden were inferior to what will happen in the future. Jesus referenced the issue in Matthew 19:1-12 when it came to his making clear that God hated dicorce and that God desired for couples to stay together for life.

Bible never says that there is no such things as heavenly forms of union. Marriage on the earth isn't translated as the same in heaven, as that'd be like saying one will not have close friendship or relationship with the person who was their spouse on the earth or that people won't recognize others. Marriage is a Sacrament, or Holy Mystery, so when it is sanctified by Christ's Church and a man and woman are bound together it becomes eternal, just as the marriage between Christ and The Church is eternal.

That isn't to mean there will be intercourse in heaven, or that the relationship is just as it is on Earth. There is a difference, a bond of love and one-ness in Heaven that only begins here on Earth and will be perfected in Heaven, just as we do with our relationship with God here on Earth. The principle behind marriage as it concerns the relationship itself not ending because of something as trivial as death must be remembered.

And we still have the reality of what Revelation discusses when it comes to children born in the age to come.

Not according to what Paul said, who noted plainly in I Corinthians 7 that he wished others would remain single as He was since it would lead to not being divided (in his view ) and able to go after the Lord in a more single-focused manner ..and he noted how what he did was a gift from God (I Corinthians 7:6-7, I Corinthians 7:32-35)

Ultimate marriage is between Christ and His bride (the Church), which Paul discussed often (I Corinthians 5 being one of the places)--but that is not the same as saying all forms of marriage as an institution will not be present on some level in the life to come.

A) No, I didn't. I re-quoted exactly what I had said.

B) Read more of what he wrote, especially vs.25 to 29

I'll just settle for it that you have perfect insight into what will happen eschatologically and Scripture, Messiah and millions of others are really quite wrong.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 23, 2012

GuardianShua said:
Matthew 22:30

GuardianShua said:
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Mark 12:25
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Luke 20:35
But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

Something else to consider is how children are still born during the reign of Christ. In Revelation 19:11-16, we find the return of Jesus Christ to Earth, known as His second coming. The rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53) is an appearing of Christ in the air, not His second coming. The implication is that saints who are on Earth when Christ returns will remain on Earth to enter the millennial kingdom in their natural bodies. The only event that results in believers receiving glorified bodies is found in Revelation 20:4-6 where those who became believers during the Tribulation and were killed because of their faith are resurrected. It is also believed that at this same time Old Testament saints will be resurrected, also receiving glorified bodies (see Daniel 12:2).

Children born during the millennial kingdom will have the responsibility of faith in Christ as all people of past ages have (faith in Christ since His coming; faith in God beforeGenesis 15:2-6; Habakkuk 2:4; Romans 3:20). Unfortunately, not all of the children that are born during the millennial kingdom will come to faith in Christ. Those that do not will be led away by Satan into rebellion against God at the end of the millennial kingdom when Satan is let loose for a short time (Revelation 20:7-10). In the millinium there will be people's here on earth. They certainly will have children, grow old, and die. They may (as is my belief) be resored to pre-fall lifespans and live for 1000 years (in which case most will not see death).

As one person wisely noted...

The literal earthly reign of Christ will also have spiritual characteristics. First and foremost, it will be a reign of righteousness in which Christ will be the King, reigning in absolute righteousness (Isaiah 32:1). It will also be a time when the fullness of Christ and the holiness of God will be manifested (Isaiah 11:2-5) and (Zechariah 14:20-21). Everything from work to worship will be holy. Sin will be punished (Psalm 72:1-4, Zechariah 14:16-21) in an open, just way.

Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost has complied the following list of what the thousand-year reign of Christ will be like:

Peace: The cessation of war through the unification of the nations under the reign of Christ, together with the resultant economic prosperity (since nations will not devote vast proportions of their expenditure on munitions) is a major theme of the prophets. National and individual peace is the fruit of the Messiahs reign. (Isaiah 2:4, 9:4-7, 11:6-9, 32:17-18, 33:5-6, 54:13, 55:12, 60:18, 65:25, 66:12, Ezekiel 28:26, 34:25, 28, Hosea 2:18, Micah 4:2-3, Zechariah 8:18-19, 10:6-7)
Joy
The fullness of joy will be a distinctive mark of the age. (Isaiah 9:3-4, 12:3-6, 14:7-8, 25:8-9, 25:30:29, 42:1, 42:10-12, 52:9, 60:15, 61:7-10, 65:18-19, 66:10-14, Jeremiah 30:18-19, 31:13-14, Zephaniah 3:14-17, Zechariah 8:18-19, 10:6-7)
Holiness
The theocratic kingdom will be a holy kingdom, in which holiness is manifest through the King and the Kings subjects. The land will be holy, the city holy, the temple holy, and the subjects holy unto the Lord. (Isaiah 1:26-27, 4:3, 29:18-23, 31:6-7, 35:8-9, 5:21, 60:21, 61:10, Jeremiah 31:23, Ezekiel 36:24-31, 37:23-24, 43:7-12, 45:1, Joel 3:21, Zephaniah 3:11-13, Zechariah 8:3, 13:1-2, 14:20-21)
Glory
The kingdom will be a glorious kingdom, in which the glory of God will find full manifestation. (Isaiah 4:2, 35:2, 40:5, 60:1-9

ComfortThe King will personally minister to every need, so that there will be fullness of comfort in that day. (Isaiah 12:1-2, 29:22-23, 30:26, 40:1-2, 49:13, 51:3, 61:3-7, 66:13-14, Jeremiah 31:23-25, Zephaniah 3:18-20, Zechariah 9:11-12, Revelation 21:4)

Justice: There will be administrationof perfect justice to every individual. (Isaiah 9:7, 11:5, 32:16, 42:1-4, 65:21-23, Jeremiah 23:5, 31:23, 31:29-30). The ministry of the King will bring the subjects of his kingdom into full knowledge. Doubtless there will be an unparalleled teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. (Isaiah 11:1-2, 11:9, 41:19-20, 54:13, Habakkuk 2:14)

The removal of the curse: The original curse places upon creation (Genesis 3:17-19) will be removed, so that there will be abundant productivity on earth. Animal creation will be changed so as to lose its venom and ferocity. (Isaiah 11:6-9, 35:9, 65:25)
Sickness removed
The ministry of the King as a healer will be seen throughout the age, so sickness and even death, except as a penal measure in dealing with overt sin, will be removed. (Isaiah 33:24, Jeremiah 30:17, Ezekiel 34:16)
Healing of the deformed
Accompanying this ministry will be the healing of all deformity at the inception of the millennium. (Isaiah 29:17-19, 35:3-6, 61:1-2, Jeremiah 31:8, Micah 4:6- 7, Zephaniah 3:19)

There will be a supernatural work of preservation of life in the millennial age through the King. (Isaiah 41:8-14, 62:8-9, Jeremiah 32:27, 23:6, Ezekiel 34:27, Joel 3:16-17, Amos 9:15, Zechariah 8:14-15, 9:8, 14:10-11)

.No unsaved person will enter the millinemum..............Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 20:37-38, Zechariah 13:9, Matthew 18:3, 25:30, Matthew 18:4-6, John 3:3) However millions of babies will be born and raised during the millennium. They will be born of saved but mortal parents who lived through Tribulation and entered the millennium in that mortal state (Thus the possible reason for the Tree of Life in Revelation 22:2). As they mature, some of these babies will refuse to submit their hearts to Christ, though their outward acts will subjected to existing authority. Thus Christ will rule with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:27, 12:5, 19:15, Zechariah 14:17-19)

If children are being born during that era, one must consider that marriage is also continuning as well....

Gxg (G²) · Sep 23, 2012

Avodat said:
A) No, I didn't. I re-quoted exactly what I had said.

Yes you did--and you ignored what was said before in the context it was said in when trying to quote others.

Of course, in the long scheme of things, it's not that deep of an issue to trip over.

B) Read more of what he wrote, especially vs.25 to 29

Did--and as said before, read more of what the whole of scripture says on marriage and the age to come and what was taking place.

Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lords mercy is trustworthy. 26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is. 27 Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

29 What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away. I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lords affairshow he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this worldhow he can please his wife 34 and his interests are divided.

Paul was concerned about sparring others from the troubles that come from marriage and keeping people from being focused on how the world is passing away and the kingdom of Christ is coming. Being single helped in keeping that focus going on the things to come, whereas marriage brought with it a realm of problems that made things more difficult. The passage was never focused on how the end would come and marriage would cease. It was about living as if one was single/undivided in their focus on CHrist.

I'll just settle for it that you have perfect insight into what will happen eschatologically and Scripture, Messiah and millions of others are really quite wrong.

It's your choice what you settle on, as others have noted it's emotional (specifically, ad-hominem via ridicule) esorting to dramatic exaggeration of claiming others think they have "perfect insight" simply because they disagreed with what you think is insightful or don't accept what you claim to be all there in text as many others do

As said before,

Matthew 22:23-32
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

This is the verse that many Christians cite. Jesus is speaking to a group of Sadducees. The Sadducees, unlike the Pharisees, did not believe in the resurrection. They were inquiring of Jesus to determine with whom a woman would be married in heaven if she had been married seven times on earth. Of course, their only motive was to try to confound Jesus. Jesus never says that there is no marriage in heaven. He says that there is no marriage at the resurrection! This is a significant difference.

If you will examine Luke 20:27-38, you will find the same story. However Luke is a bit clearer. He writes, We will be like the angels, for we will never die. In other words, our similarity to the angels in heaven is not that we will be unmarried as the angels, but rather that we will never die. Matthews expression, however, seems to suggest that our similarity to angels in heaven is that we will be single as the angels. This is incorrect.

What, then, does Jesus mean when he says that we will not marry at the resurrection? The course of resurrection, as with the course of restoration, is the course of re-creation. The course of re-creation follows the same principle as the course of creation. Adam and Eve were to grow to perfection in the position of brother and sister.

To eat from the tree of life is the ideal of perfection and the prerequisite for fulfillment of the second blessing (multiply). In the beginning, there would be no marriage until the conclusion of the creation process to the tree of life, that is, the first blessing. Likewise, in the course of resurrection, there is no marriage until the conclusion of the process of resurrection: restoration to eat from the tree of life. Since God blocked the way to the tree of life, (Genesis 3:24) there has been no marriage. This is why no child could be born without the stain of sin. All born of Adam were without life.

Thus, there will be no true marriage until mankind can resurrect and reclaim the right to eat from the tree of life. This is the hope of the Second Coming, as stated in Revelation 2:7 and 22:14

That is one view amongst many...but it is a view many scholars have debated for a long time when it comes to seeing what the full council of God's Word says. Scripture is scripture and it needs to be addresed fully. Doing so doesn't mean others believe that they have all the answers. For the millions of others who've been for the thought of marriage in heaven continuing on differing levels, by your logic, one can claim that you feel you have perfect insight into what will happen and the millions disagreed with you are all quite wrong---but that's needless since the bottom line is that all are studying the scriptures for themselves and have differing conclusions...just as it has been throughout history where people debated on the issue of CHrist/Messiah possibly being married and people were mature enough to handle it without the quips of "Well, you just think you know everything, huh?!!!" .

Gxg (G²) · Sep 23, 2012

visionary said:
visionary said:

Some want Jesus to be married to Mary Magdalene, a bad girl, and Joseph's wife to remain a virgin.. go figure.
/quote]

Click to expand...

Mary Magdalene was pretty radical...

Avodat · Sep 23, 2012

Please go read post 23 to see what I really said about marriage and procreation (you can check to make sure I haven't edited out the word 'ONLY', as you seem to have read it in). What you have written for the millennia to come is largely irrelevant to what we were saying. Everyone else is talking about heaven - that final place for all real believers that will appear when all the 1000 year bits and pieces have happened (or not, depending on whether you are amillennialist, pre-millennialist, post-millennialist or an all-of-them-in-one-go-millennialist); there cannot be sinners, whether children or grown ups, in heaven because G_d cannot be where sin is, and nowhere does it say in Scripture anything that contradicts that. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but volume of writing doesn't prove anything, nor does quoting largely unknown people on any particular subject, except that you have the time to do it. Anyone could write a million words on any subject, but it doesn't follow that they are right, does it?

So you can have all the children you want in that millennia, if, when, it ever happens, 'cause that isn't what is being spoken of! Go ye, therefore, into the world and multiply!

Gxg (G²) · Sep 23, 2012

Avodat said:
Please go read post 23 to see what I really said about marriage and procreation (you can check to make sure I haven't edited out the word 'ONLY', as you seem to have read it in).

As said, didn't say that YOU SAID marriage was "only" for the purposes of having children. Stating what marriage was also for after you mention that it was a means of procreation doesn't equate to one claiming that you believed it was solely for making children. Context..

What you have written for the millennia to come is largely irrelevant to what we were saying.

What you have written in avoidance of scripture is largely moot in light of the issue of addressing marriage coming after the return of Christ/His reign. It is what it is and there's no way around that for anyone being honest with the text.

Everyone else is talking about heaven - that final place for all real believers that will appear when all the 1000 year bits and pieces have happened (or not, depending on whether you are amillennialist, pre-millennialist, post-millennialist or all-of-them-in-one-go-millennialist); there cannot be sinners, whether children or grown ups in heaven because G_d cannot be where sin is, and nowhere does it say in Scripture anything that contradicts that.!

Incorrect...and on the issue, it should be noted that speaking of "heaven" must seen in the context of Christ ruling and reigning on the Earth. That is what is being talked about when it comes to marriage. That has been debated (for anyone remotely aware of church history) for ages when it comes to noting how believers will be redeemed and present during the 100oyear bit---and there's plenty of reasons why many scholars have noted the issue of how it's not unscriptural to see where children will still be born to believers during the rule of Christ in the world. Children will still have to make choices just as choices were made during the Fall by the Enemy in Heaven during his own rebellion. God being present in a place doesn't mean sin is not also able to be present. For if that were the case, there were multiple contradications present when it comes to the Lord working with men/women who sin or working throughout history in the lives of others who never acknowledged him and yet were used (in His Sovereignty) for His glory and purposes.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but volume of writing doesn't prove anything, nor does quoting largely unknown people on any particular subject, except that you have the time to do it.

Another ad-homimen and distraction to what was actually said. However, if wishing to talk on "volume"/writing, indeed...it doesn't matter how much is said or the way it is said in. One of the reasons many have often dismissed much of what you note when it comes to you doing the same in the event you feel it needed...and often claiming to be about studying what is known when many of the views you espouse are often from people that are not Orthodox or well-known.

If willing to address the issue, we can easily do a review now if needed to make the point of every instance you've quoted someone that was either largely unknown and defended it...and the same thing goes for moments that issues concerning the creeds/confessions and Christianity was questioned and you quoted others who were not well-known at length to defend it.

Again, What you do is ad-hominem since volume has NOTHING to do with addressing facts and scripture as they are...and as everyone here has a life, trying to bring up "Well, you have time to do it" is pointless. The fact of the matter is that you have just as much time to write what you do as I have time to do what I do.

Anyone could write a million words on any subject, but it doesn't follow that they are right, does it?

Trying to frame things as if something's established by exaggeration via "million words" is pointless since the same holds true conversely when it comes to the fact that anyone can write short-to the point writings and yet that doesn't mean that they've either dealt with scripture or said anything important. As it stands, a million words have not even been shared and thus one is left with another needless attempt at attacking a poster rather than addressing an argument.

If able to deal with scripture, great. However, it doesn't take much for one to do ad-homimen via ridicule the moment someone doesn't agree with what Avodat deems "right"---and sadly, that has happened often with many whom you debate with. It's not needed nor really a sign of being able to interact properly with information. Prayerfully that can change on your part....

So you can have all the children you want in that millennia, if, when, it ever happens, 'cause that isn't what is being spoken of! Go ye, therefore, into the world and multiply!
__________________

Again, has nothing remotely to do with the discussion. Sincerely, if able, step up and deal with the scriptures rather than offering more rhetoric about what you feel they're not saying...if really being able to deal with the scriptures as they are

Avodat · Sep 23, 2012

Easy G (G²);61440034 said:
As said, didn't say that YOU SAID marriage was "only" for the purposes of having children. Stating what marriage was also for after you mention that it was a means of procreation doesn't equate to one claiming that you believed it was solely for making children.

Context..

Well let's just look at context. I've posted what I said and this is what you said in response:

Didn't say you said marriage was only about procreation...as noting where it was about more than having children doesn't indicate that you didn't think there was more to it than that

I didn't said (sic) anything of the sort, though you accuse me of doing so, as shown in the above print in red! Context indeed! So let's just get it straight before my words are twisted again. I did NOT say that marriage is ONLY about procreation.

Avodat · Sep 23, 2012

Yeah, well, as I said, if you want to believe these things feel free...non-Scriptural understandings never work out well, whether in this life or the next.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 23, 2012

Avodat said:
Yeah, well, as I said, if you want to believe these things feel free...non-Scriptural understandings never work out well, whether in this life or the next.

Indeed. One of the reasons it has been said throughout history that people arguing against marriage in heaven are free to do so as they wish. There is a reason many in Jewish culture have noted that issue and there's nothing wrong if you wish to think otherwise...as you're not the first to do nor the last or the standard

yedida said:
yedida said:

You saw nothing wrong with what he cut and pasted? I've read it twice and see all kinds of things wrong with it, that is if one is Messianic. (Maybe I'm "seeing" things....)

Click to expand...

Sincerly, if claiming or trying to remotely hint others are not "Messianic", that's against the rules as you well know. There is no universal viewpoint in regards to what Messianic Judaism holds to...and as often as that has been quoted by you if someone said something in regards to yourself/others you disagree with, IMHO, it's sad if trying to attempt that here when a range of things have been accepted by yourself that have never been advocated by Messianic Judaism--but that's another issue. If one doesn't believe that marriage occurs in Heaven or that it's impossible for children to be born via marriage during the reign of the Messiah in the 1,000 era, one is free to show from scripture how such a view is not Messianic. Others have talked about such issues in the Messianic world, such as those with Ariel Ministries...and other places ( here, here, here and elsewhere).

Again, if something is an issue, by all means one can show where/deal with it.

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Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

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Contending for Biblical truth

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Contending for Biblical truth

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Contending for Biblical truth

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

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Contending for Biblical truth

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Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

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