Theistic Evolution

Tomk80 · Sep 12, 2012

mathetes123 said:
If they did not have a supernatural creator, then where did they come from? They did not create themselves.

Nothing can be it's own cause, therefore the natural world cannot be it's own cause, necessitating a "supernatural" cause outside of itself. Logic tells us that design and information require an intelligent cause.

The extremes atheists go through to avoid the possibility of the existence of God is literally beyond reason.

The cursive sentence is not necessarily true. Even if it were, the bolded part is where you leave logic behind and enter the bright, wide and ever fanciful world of the cop out. Or in other words, you're just making stuff up. Which is fine, an imagination is a beautiful thing. Just don't demand of others that they believe you.

Elendur · Sep 12, 2012

mathetes123 said:
Nothing can be it's own cause, therefore the natural world cannot be it's own cause, necessitating a "supernatural" cause outside of itself. Logic tells us that design and information require an intelligent cause.

Nothing can be its own cause, except for god, right?

The extremes theists go through to avoid the possibility of the non-existence of God is literally beyond reason.

Whappish!

Loudmouth · Sep 12, 2012

mathetes123 said:
If they did not have a supernatural creator, then where did they come from? They did not create themselves.

Why would they need a supernatural creator? You still haven't explained this. Clouds do not create themselves, but they are also not the product of a supernatural deity. Their beginnings are entirely natural.

Nothing can be it's own cause, therefore the natural world cannot be it's own cause, necessitating a "supernatural" cause outside of itself.

Why can't the origin of the universe come about through natural means? You still haven't explained that. Clouds come about through natural means, so why not universes?

Logic tells us that design and information require an intelligent cause.

No it doesn't. Design and information are produced by natural means all of the time.

The extremes atheists go through to avoid the possibility of the existence of God is literally beyond reason.

Atheists are not the ones inventing deities. That would be theists.

mathetes123 · Sep 12, 2012

Elendur said:
Nothing can be its own cause, except for god, right?

The extremes theists go through to avoid the possibility of the non-existence of God is literally beyond reason.

Whappish!

Only things that have a beginning require a cause.

mathetes123 · Sep 12, 2012

Loudmouth said:
Why would they need a supernatural creator? You still haven't explained this. Clouds do not create themselves, but they are also not the product of a supernatural deity. Their beginnings are entirely natural.

Why can't the origin of the universe come about through natural means? You still haven't explained that. Clouds come about through natural means, so why not universes?

No it doesn't. Design and information are produced by natural means all of the time.

Atheists are not the ones inventing deities. That would be theists.

The natural world did not create itself, thus the need for a supernatural cause.

Jamin4422 · Sep 12, 2012

gocarroll711 said:
When I was in college, I was a biology major, and my strongest area of study was evolutionary biology.

So did you study anything about domestication in the middle east of things like: wheat, barley, lentils, beans, garlic, onions, milk and milk products. Bread and beer from grains. Meat, usually from goats or sheep and cattle. Apples, pears, olives, grapes, figs, and other kinds of foods.

rikerjoe · Sep 12, 2012

mathetes123 said:
The natural world did not create itself, thus the need for a supernatural cause.

How do you know it did not "create itself"?

sandwiches · Sep 13, 2012

mathetes123 said:
Only things that have a beginning require a cause.

Why do they require a cause?

Elendur · Sep 13, 2012

mathetes123 said:
Only things that have a beginning require a cause.

See what sandwiches asked above, I asked that in post #58 as well (with a small variation). Can you explain why it is so?

Tomk80 · Sep 13, 2012

mathetes123 said:
Only things that have a beginning require a cause.

If God can be eternal, why can't the natural world be. You cop out has been noted by everyone here for what it is.

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Sep 13, 2012

Tomk80 said:
If God can be eternal, why can't the natural world be. You cop out has been noted by everyone here for what it is.

Indeed. This universe may have a beginning, but what if its cause is a previous universe or other level of the natural world? (where are they with colliding branes these days?)

juvenissun · Sep 13, 2012

Aggie said:
Personally, I don't think God is subjected to time at all, because time is a characteristic of the universe and God exists outside the universe. I know it's very difficult to imagine a being that does not experience time, because none of us have ever experienced anything outside the universe. If you view God this way, it means that in his experience there is no distinction between something that lasts a single moment and something that lasts forever. Or to quote the letter to Christianity today, "From a Christian point of view, it is reasonable to conclude that the temporal and the spatial extent of our universe were created together, and thus the entire four-dimensional structure resides before its Creator in an eternal present."

But, you know, my goal here isn't to impose my own beliefs about God on you. If you think it makes sense to say that God created in six days of his own timescale, but within the timescale of the universe this was millions of years, I have no problem with that. The only thing I was looking for in this thread was to challenge you to come up with a view of the world's history that's consistent with Psalm 104, and also (if possible) that's consistent with what geology suggests about the age of the earth using the universe's internal timescale. If you've done that, then I'm happy with the outcome of this discussion.

We agreed that God exists outside the realm of time, no matter what scale the time is. But, if God uses one of His creation called time, then what He does will have a signature of time. To me, the only thing true for all kinds of time is the sequence. We can project one time scale onto another, for example one year to a thousand year. But the sequence of events took place in any time scale should not be mixed. (That is why the sequence of the Six Day creation is very significant)

So when the Scripture says that God "finished" His creation, then He is not creating anything after that. This makes a high contrast to your idea of an ever-creating god, even he is outside the realm of time.

Loudmouth · Sep 13, 2012

mathetes123 said:
The natural world did not create itself, thus the need for a supernatural cause.

Where did you show that the universe did not come about by natural means? Please show us this evidence.

crimsonleaf · Sep 13, 2012

Loudmouth said:
Where did you show that the universe did not come about by natural means? Please show us this evidence.

Equally, show us the evidence that the universe did come about by a natural cause. Both assertions are matters of faith. The theist position is that the universe had a cause (we call that cause God); the atheist's position is that the universe exists through no cause.

One of the statements above seems more logical to me than the other.

Quote: Karl - Liberal Backslider: "Indeed. This universe may have a beginning, but what if its cause is a previous universe or other level of the natural world? (where are they with colliding branes these days?)"

Sounds like "turtles all the way down" to me.

Loudmouth · Sep 13, 2012

crimsonleaf said:
Equally, show us the evidence that the universe did come about by a natural cause.

I am not making the claim that it did.

However, mathetes123 is making the claim that the universe did not come about by natural means, so I am asking for evidence to support that claim.

The theist position is that the universe had a cause (we call that cause God); the atheist's position is that the universe exists through no cause.

That isn't true at all. M-theory is a scientific theory that may explain how our universe came about. That is a cause, and it is not a supernatural cause.

One of the statements above seems more logical to me than the other.

Then you would be wrong since your argument is based on false premises.

mathetes123 · Sep 13, 2012

Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Indeed. This universe may have a beginning, but what if its cause is a previous universe or other level of the natural world? (where are they with colliding branes these days?)

You will still have to eventually come to a first cause.

mathetes123 · Sep 13, 2012

Loudmouth said:
I am not making the claim that it did.

However, mathetes123 is making the claim that the universe did not come about by natural means, so I am asking for evidence to support that claim.

quote]

This is just pure logic. Anything that has a beginning requires a cause outside of itself. Since nothing can be it's own cause, nature cannot have caused itself. Therefore, the cause must be outside of nature, which is the definition of supernatural.

Tomk80 · Sep 13, 2012

mathetes123 said:
You will still have to eventually come to a first cause.

Why? Why would we have to come to a first cause for M-branes, but would you be exempt from coming up with a first cause for God?

Tomk80 · Sep 13, 2012

mathetes123 said:
Loudmouth said:

I am not making the claim that it did.

However, mathetes123 is making the claim that the universe did not come about by natural means, so I am asking for evidence to support that claim.

Click to expand...

This is just pure logic. Anything that has a beginning requires a cause outside of itself. Since nothing can be it's own cause, nature cannot have caused itself. Therefore, the cause must be outside of nature, which is the definition of supernatural.

Since we already determined that "nature" does not necessarily have a beginning, your reasoning fails.

Loudmouth · Sep 13, 2012

mathetes123 said:
This is just pure logic. Anything that has a beginning requires a cause outside of itself.

So why can't we have a natural cause outside of the universe that produces the universe?

Since nothing can be it's own cause, nature cannot have caused itself.

But nature causes itself all of the time. Clouds are nature, and it is nature that produces clouds. Therefore, nature does cause itself. We see examples of this every day and every second.

Therefore, the cause must be outside of nature, which is the definition of supernatural.

So the the production of clouds is supernatural because the cause lies outside of the naturally occuring clouds?

Theistic Evolution

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Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

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... and God saw that it was good.

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