Bipartite Man -vs- Tripartite Man

daq · Sep 10, 2012

The contention of this thread is that Man cannot be proven by the Scripture account of creation to have been given ruwach-spirit or pneuma-spirit and therefore Adam was created to be a chay-nephesh or living soul, exactly as the Scripture states, in the beginning. Perhaps one should first ask himself or herself if he or she is truly willing to be a disciple of the Word because if so then the same will not add or take away from those things which are clearly written and stated in it. The most common word employed in the Hebrew for ''Spirit'' or ''Wind'' is ''Ruwach'' which is used in the very opening statement of the first chapter of Genesis. However, the same word is nowhere found in the passage concerning the creation of Adam-Man. In addition we have a quoting of the same creation of Adam-Man passage in the Greek which reveals which words are the Greek equivalents to the Hebrew passage.

Genesis 1:1-2 KJV
1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit [HSN#7307 ruwach] of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Original Strong's Ref. #7307
Romanized ruwach
Pronounced roo'-akh
from HSN7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-])wind(-y).

Genesis 2:7 KJV
7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed [HSN#5301 naphach] into his nostrils the breath [HSN#5397 nshamah] of life; [HSN#2416 chay] and man became a living [HSN#2416 chay] soul [HSN#5315 nephesh].

Original Strong's Ref. #5301
Romanized naphach
Pronounced naw-fakh'
a primitive root; to puff, in various applications (literally, to inflate, blow hard, scatter, kindle, expire; figuratively, to disesteem):
KJV--blow, breath, give up, cause to lose [life], seething, snuff.

Original Strong's Ref. #5397
Romanized nshamah
Pronounced nesh-aw-maw'
from HSN5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:
KJV--blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

Original Strong's Ref. #2416
Romanized chay
Pronounced khah'-ee
from HSN2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:
KJV-- + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

Original Strong's Ref. #5315
Romanized nephesh
Pronounced neh'-fesh
from HSN5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X [dis-]contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living [GSN#2198-2222 zao-zoe] soul; [GSN#5590 psuche] the last Adam was made a quickening spirit [GSN#4151 pneuma].

Original Strong's Ref. #2198
Romanized zao
Pronounced dzah'-o
a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):
KJV--life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

Original Strong's Ref. #2222
Romanized zoe
Pronounced dzo-ay'
from GSN2198; life (literally or figuratively):
KJV--life(-time). Compare GSN5590.

Original Strong's Ref. #5590
Romanized psuche
Pronounced psoo-khay'
from GSN5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from GSN4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from GSN2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew HSN5315, HSN7307 and HSN2416):
KJV--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Original Strong's Ref. #4151
Romanized pneuma
Pronounced pnyoo'-mah
from GSN4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
KJV--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare GSN5590.

One may clearly see that the Strong's observations provided in the definition for GSN#5590 are INCORRECT concerning ''the rational and immortal soul'' having been stated anywhere to be ruwach-spirit or pneuma-spirit. This has caused much confusion which has now been compounded with the introduction of modern psychology into modern Christian thought and theology. Adam is not stated to have received ruwach-spirit in Genesis 2:7 and neither is he stated to have received pneuma-spirit in 1 Corinthians 15:45 which directly quotes from the Genesis 2:7 passage. Therefore disciple yourself into strict adherence to the following understanding which is from both Testaments of the Scripture. It may not be an easy task at first, for it will begin to demolish some long held and cherished beliefs; yet one will find, in the long walk, that this will not fail in correcting his own doctrines:

HSN#7307 Ruwach - Spirit-Wind = GSN#4151 Pneuma - Spirit-Wind
HSN#2416 Chay - Life = GSN#2198-2222 Zao-Zoe - Life
HSN#5315 Nephesh - Soul = GSN#5590 Psuche - Soul

In addition GSN#4151 pneuma-spirit-wind is not found in the Septuagint version of Genesis 2:7 showing that when the Septuagint was translated, (by 70 Jewish scholars in Alexandria Egypt, under Ptolemy II Philadelphus, 285-247BC) the Hebrew-Aramaic manuscripts from which it was translated must have contained the same rendering of the passage as what we now have in the more modern Masoretic Hebrew Text:

Genesis 2:7 - Greek Septuagint
και επλασεν ο θεος τον ανθρωπον χουν απο της γης και ενεφυσησεν εις το προσωπον αυτου πνοην ζωης και εγενετο ο ανθρωπος εις ψυχην ζωσαν

ενεφυσησεν - emphuseo
πνοην - pnoe
ζωης-ζωσαν - zao-zoe
ψυχην - psuche

ενεφυσησεν

Original Strong's Ref. #1720
Romanized emphusao
Pronounced em-foo-sah'-o
from GSN1722 and phusao (to puff) [compare GSN5453]; to blow at or on:
KJV--breathe on.

πνοην

Original Strong's Ref. #4157
Romanized pnoe
Pronounced pno-ay'
from GSN4154; respiration, a breeze:
KJV--breath, wind.

HSN#5397 nshamah = GSN#4157 pnoe

This thread is a spin off from the following:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7686364-2/#post61363284

...

daq · Sep 10, 2012

After Genesis 1:2 the next occurrence of HSN#7307 ''ruwach'' is found in Genesis 3:8 ~

Genesis 1:1-2 KJV
1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit [HSN#7307 ruwach] of God moved upon the face of the waters.

However, the KJV translates ''ruwach'' as ''cool'' as in the breeze of the day ~

Genesis 3:8 KJV
8. And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool [HSN#7307 ruwach] of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

Thus we have, in the first two occurrences of ''ruwach'' found in Torah, two meanings which pertain respectively to the Spirit of 'Elohiym moving-brooding upon the face of the waters in the opening creation account and then the ruwach-breeze-wind-air of the day in the garden of Eden from Genesis 3. The implications are that the Father is the Life in the air-wind-breeze and every breath that the man takes throughout the course of his lifetime.

The next occurrence of HSN#7307 ''ruwach'' is found in Genesis 6:3 ~

Genesis 6:1-3 KJV
1. And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3. And the Lord said, My spirit [HSN#7307 ruwach] shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The implications are that the Ruwach-Spirit-Life-breath-wind-breeze of the Father shall not always strive-contend with man because man is flesh. Therefore the BREATH of Life to the man shall be cut off at an hundred and twenty years. The ruwach-breath-wind-air-spirit therefore returns to the Father who is omnipresent in the earth, in the heavens, and even the heaven of heavens which cannot contain him.

The next occurrence of HSN#7307 ''ruwach'' is found in Genesis 6:17 ~

Genesis 6:17 KJV
17. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath [HSN#7307 ruwach] of life, [HSN#2416 chay] from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

In this occasion HSN#7307 ruwach is translated as breath by the KJV and is fully correct because the implications are that the very air that we breath is full of life and provided directly by the Father and Creator of all things. The man takes a breath and breathes in life, the man exhales and breathes out life to the plants and the trees, the trees and plant life breathe in what the man breathed out and receive life, the trees and the plant life breathe out and when they do they breathe out life to the man. It is cyclical, as in all things Torah, and does not end for the man until he breathes his last breath; and when that day comes the ruwach-spirit-wind-breath returns to the Father. The implications are that no man has his own spirit but rather that every breath a man takes in his lifetime is a chay-life giving source provided by the Father. Our very existence in every breath is dependant upon the Most High and HIS AIR. Therefore ''the air about you'' is your ''spirit'' which is also transient in nature. It is only the nephesh-soul of the man which is permanent and it is only the nephesh-psuche-soul of the man which is ever stated to be in danger in any of the parables and saying of the Master Yeshua. Paul expresses the very same persuasion of mindset at the Mars Hill discourse, that our very existence and being is dependant upon the Creator of all things:

Acts 17:22-28 KJV
22. Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25. Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, [GSN#2222 zoe] and breath, [GSN#4157 pnoe] and all things;
26. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27. That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28. For in him we live, [GSN#2198 zao] and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

That is not to say that the Father is merely the air which we breath, rather, it is to say that the Father is IN every breath that we take by his own design; and every breath that a man takes in his lifetime upon the earth is living ruwach-pneuma-spirit-breeze-wind from the Father, in whom we live, and breath, and move, and have our very existence and being. The concepts which are seen in the natural creation are given to us as examples revealing the wonder of our Creator, and indeed, he is not far from any one of us. O how my spirit-breath-air about me delights in the wonders of my heavenly Father!

Hillsage · Sep 11, 2012

daq said:
The implications are that the Ruwach-Spirit-Life-breath-wind-breeze of the Father shall not always strive-contend with man because man is flesh. Therefore the BREATH of Life to the man shall be cut off at an hundred and twenty years. The ruwach-breath-wind-air-spirit therefore returns to the Father who is omnipresent in the earth, in the heavens, and even the heaven of heavens which cannot contain him.

I used to think that this verse meant, after the flood no one would live longer than a 120 years. But supposedly there are documented cases of people living longer. So what's your take on it?

Acts 17:

Click to expand...

25. Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, [GSN#2222 zoe] and breath, [GSN#4157 pnoe] and all things;

That is not to say that the Father is merely the air which we breath, rather, it is to say that the Father is IN every breath that we take by his own design; and every breath that a man takes in his lifetime upon the earth is living ruwach-pneuma-spirit-breeze-wind from the Father, in whom we live, and breath, and move, and have our very existence and being. The concepts which are seen in the natural creation are given to us as examples revealing the wonder of our Creator, and indeed, he is not far from any one of us. O how my spirit-breath-air about me delights in the wonders of my heavenly Father!

I often think of the verse where Jesus said "I have food to eat that you know not of." And yet I don't think that meant 'physical' food at all. And this 'spiritual food' is the same kind of vitalizing energy that "quickened" him with life again after His crucifixion/death. And when "wind" is used of the word 'ruwach/pneuma' I think that it is mainly referencing oxygen. Scripture does say that the "life is in the blood", and in this verse I think it is also speaking about 'zao' life which comes from 'oxygen' in the blood stream.

Thoughts?

bbbbbbb · Sep 11, 2012

Hillsage said:
I used to think that this verse meant, after the flood no one would live longer than a 120 years. But supposedly there are documented cases of people living longer. So what's your take on it?

I often think of the verse where Jesus said "I have food to eat that you know not of." And yet I don't think that meant 'physical' food at all. And this 'spiritual food' is the same kind of vitalizing energy that "quickened" him with life again after His crucifixion/death. And when "wind" is used of the word 'ruwach/pneuma' I think that it is mainly referencing oxygen. Scripture does say that the "life is in the blood", and in this verse I think it is also speaking about 'zao' life which comes from 'oxygen' in the blood stream.

Thoughts?

There have been cases of documented people living longer than 120 years in Japan. However, when the authorities decided to honor these people for their longevity, it was discovered that they had actually been dead for many years and that their families had been illegally collecting social security benefits in their names. At present the oldest document person alive on this earth is 113 years old and lives in my city. He has a steep hill to climb yet to make it to 120. I think the Genesis account is accurate that the upper limit of human longevity is 120 years.

Hillsage · Sep 11, 2012

bbbbbbb said:
There have been cases of documented people living longer than 120 years in Japan. However, when the authorities decided to honor these people for their longevity, it was discovered that they had actually been dead for many years and that their families had been illegally collecting social security benefits in their names. At present the oldest document person alive on this earth is 113 years old and lives in my city. He has a steep hill to climb yet to make it to 120. I think the Genesis account is accurate that the upper limit of human longevity is 120 years.

What about the apostle John? The term 'the wandering Jew'...is not plural. And even the very disciples of Jesus thought John might obtain immortality.

JOH 21:23 The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple/John was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"

Phantasman · Sep 11, 2012

Hillsage said:
What about the apostle John? The term 'the wandering Jew'...is not plural. And even the very disciples of Jesus thought John might obtain immortality.

JOH 21:23 The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple/John was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"

Christ did return. And gave John the knowledge of truth, which he gave to the disciples.

Beginning of The Apocryphon of John

The teaching of the savior, and the revelation of the mysteries and the things hidden in silence, even these things which he taught John, his disciple.

And it happened one day, when John, the brother of James - who are the sons of Zebedee - had come up to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him, "Where is your master whom you followed?" And he said to him, "He has gone to the place from which he came." The Pharisee said to him, "With deception did this Nazarene deceive you (pl.), and he filled your ears with lies, and closed your hearts (and) turned you from the traditions of your fathers."

When I, John, heard these things I turned away from the temple to a desert place. And I grieved greatly in my heart, saying, "How then was the savior appointed, and why was he sent into the world by his Father, and who is his Father who sent him, and of what sort is that aeon to which we shall go? For what did he mean when he said to us, 'This aeon to which you will go is of the type of the imperishable aeon, but he did not teach us concerning the latter, of what sort it is."

Straightway, while I was contemplating these things, behold, the heavens opened and the whole creation which is below heaven shone, and the world was shaken. I was afraid, and behold I saw in the light a youth who stood by me. While I looked at him, he became like an old man. And he changed his likeness (again), becoming like a servant. There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likenesses appeared through each other, and the likeness had three forms.

He said to me, "John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you? - that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you (pl.) always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son. I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what was and what will come to pass, that you may know the things which are not revealed and those which are revealed, and to teach you concerning the unwavering race of the perfect Man. Now, therefore, lift up your face, that you may receive the things that I shall teach you today, and may tell them to your fellow spirits who are from the unwavering race of the perfect Man."

daq · Sep 11, 2012

First and foremost I do believe that Noah was given the command to build the Ark one hundred and twenty years before the flood. That would be an exact fulfillment of what is stated. As for the secondary meaning of the lifespan of man, being the span of one hundred twenty years, it may therefore be more of a generalization until the giving of the Torah-Law of Moses. We see in the chronology immediately after the flood that the years of the life spans are not suddenly all less than one hundred twenty years but rather gradually come into compliance with the generalization until the giving of the Law. We must also remember who originally penned the passage which includes the statement given in Genesis 6:3; it was Moses, and in this light the Covenant with Noah, (and all flesh) is not seen as being ''abolished'' or ''overridden'' by the giving of the Law but rather as being passed like a baton to Moses who is given more to expound, which includes both the Covenant to Noah and all flesh, and also the Covenants to Abraham. Moses is therefore cut off at one hundred twenty years:

Deuteronomy 31:1-2 KJV
1. And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.
2. And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the Lord hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan.

Moses says ''I can no more go out and come in'' but apparently this has not to do with his physical health and well being but rather must have to do with the statement written in Genesis 6:3, which Moses himself penned; for at the time when Moses died the Law had come into the full force. Typologically speaking then the Law brought about the death of the greatest lawgiver and prophet of all time, that is until the coming of John and That Prophet whom John announced, for we read also the following concerning Moses:

Deuteronomy 34:5-7 KJV
5. So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.
6. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
7. And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

His eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated; he therefore died by the commandment. And so then if one lives to be an ''hundred and twenty years'' (according to the Law that is) then perhaps the same might also receive a name change from the Most High; and perhaps no one will know where the old man of that one was buried. This all has much to do with typology:

John 20:22 KJV
22. And when he had said this, he breathed [GSN#1720 emphuseo] on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

And then what happened? They went on a forty day ''journey through the wilderness'' where the Master led them along the way revealing the wonderful works of the Creator by many infallible proofs and miracles just as the forty years in the wilderness:

Acts 1:1-4 KJV
1. The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2. Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3. To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

These forty days run from the firstfruits of the harvest Wave Sheaf offering, which is Yeshua in typology, and which occurred the day of the Resurrection, (''Touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father''). The days of the counting of the Omer are the feast of weeks, the seven weeks or forty nine days until Shavuot-Pentecost, (which is the fiftieth day). Thus Yeshua was taken up from the disciples Ten Days before the events of Acts 2 and Shavuot. The typology in this instance is a ''forty years wilderness journey'' and then ''the Tamiyd is taken up'' from the children of the bridechamber; and then shall they fast, for then come the Ten Days of tribulation-trial, then the Return, and the commandment is to stay in Jerusalem, (of above) and await the promise of the Father.

Daniel 1:11-12 KJV
11. Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,
12. Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.
13. Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants.
14. So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days.

Revelation 2:10 KJV
10. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

So understand that when you came to Christ Yeshua you were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, (not given at birth) and you are now pressing on toward an hundred and twenty, (according to the Law and the Prophets that is). And when it is fulfilled in you then you shall be born from above, if indeed you overcome in your hour of trial.

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul[GSN#5590 psuche].

Once upon a Bar-Mitzvah there was a young Hebrew boy whose name was Balal. And Balal just so happened to have a friend by the name of Baal which was his best friend and closest confidant. And this Balal loved the Lord his God with all of his heart, and with all of his soul, and the young boy prayed every day; even three times a day, with his bedchamber window open and his countenance toward Jerusalem of above. Now there was a day when Balal came to present himself before the Lord, and the boy was in his bedchamber, as usual, on his knees praying; and as he began to praise and extol the Most High, it came to pass that his best friend Baal crept in through the open window and tapped him on the shoulder in the midst of his supplications. And the Baal said to Balal: ''The circus is coming! the circus is coming! The caravan is entering at the gates of the city! There are lions, and bears, and leopards, and wild beasts; Come, let us go out and watch the affair! And you can finish your petitions in the evening time''

And at that moment the Lord said to Balal: ''If you love me with all of your heart, and with all of your soul, and with all of your mind, and with all of your strength, then guard my commandments; lay them up in your heart and in your soul, remember and honor them by keeping them within you.''

And as Balal heard the voice of the Word of the Most High; the young boy was suddenly reminded of a passage which he had recently overheard some friends of his Father debating outside of the synagogue: ''If your brother the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or your inner wife, or your closest friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known, neither you, nor your fathers; namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto you, or far off from you, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Mitsrayim, from the house of bondage. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.''

Then suddenly Balal understood the meaning of the Word; so he took up stones, and he stoned his counterpart Baal, he stoned him so much that Baal died the death under a heaped up pile of heaping stones. And not anymore did the young man allow the voice of that one to enter into his heart or into his mind. Yet none of the towns people were the wiser for the matter; for in that little village no one else knew of any boy named Baal. And as for Balal; the Most High changed his name to Balaq'el; for he was willing to cut off his own soul and cleave away unto the Most High

daq · Sep 12, 2012

Hillsage said:
I used to think that this verse meant, after the flood no one would live longer than a 120 years. But supposedly there are documented cases of people living longer. So what's your take on it?

I often think of the verse where Jesus said "I have food to eat that you know not of." And yet I don't think that meant 'physical' food at all. And this 'spiritual food' is the same kind of vitalizing energy that "quickened" him with life again after His crucifixion/death. And when "wind" is used of the word 'ruwach/pneuma' I think that it is mainly referencing oxygen. Scripture does say that the "life is in the blood", and in this verse I think it is also speaking about 'zao' life which comes from 'oxygen' in the blood stream.

Thoughts?

Yes I agree that you are certainly on to something with the oxygen to the blood because the phrase ''life is in the blood'' is actually mistranslated in the KJV and most English versions which followed suit. The word used in the famous passage spoken to Noah is not chay-life but rather it is the nephesh-soul. This is why it is so important to lay out all of the definitions at the beginning of such a study and try to adhere consistently to the definitions, and in this case the definitions of chay-life, nephesh-soul, ruwach-spirit, and their Greek counterparts, and the definitions will help correct the doctrine. It is ''the voice of the blood'' of Abel which cries out from the ground after his brother slew him:

Genesis 4:9-10 KJV
9. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: am I my brother's keeper?
10. And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Genesis 9:1-5 KJV
1. And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4. But flesh with the life [HSN#5315 nephesh] thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5. And surely your blood of your lives [HSN#5315 nephesh] will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life [HSN#5315 nephesh] of man.

Why was it so difficult for King James and his court to translate this properly?

Genesis 9:4-5
4. But flesh with the nephesh-soul thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5. And surely your blood of your nephesh-souls will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the nephesh-soul of man.

Leviticus 17:11 KJV
11. For the life [HSN#5315 nephesh] of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: [HSN#5315 nephesh] for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [HSN#5315 nephesh].

For the same reason this Law was restated again, (which does not happen very often) in the Acts 15 letter to the churches because the soul is in the blood/is the blood. This has profound consequences regarding our theology because the ONLY blood we are ever stated to be allowed to partake of is the blood of Christ Yeshua, in Spirit, (i.e. the Cup). Therefore the Word is Spirit because Yeshua poured out his nephesh-soul unto death. When we partake of his Doctrine-Word we do partake of his nephesh-soul because he was made a quickening-life-giving Spirit:

Isaiah 53:10-12
10. Yet it pleased YHWH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his nephesh-soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YHWH shall prosper in his hand.
11. He shall see of the travail of his nephesh-soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12. Therefore will I apportion for him with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his nephesh-soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

daq · Sep 14, 2012

Phantasman said:
Christ did return. And gave John the knowledge of truth, which he gave to the disciples.

Beginning of The Apocryphon of John

The teaching of the savior, and the revelation of the mysteries and the things hidden in silence, even these things which he taught John, his disciple.

And it happened one day, when John, the brother of James - who are the sons of Zebedee - had come up to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him, "Where is your master whom you followed?" And he said to him, "He has gone to the place from which he came." The Pharisee said to him, "With deception did this Nazarene deceive you (pl.), and he filled your ears with lies, and closed your hearts (and) turned you from the traditions of your fathers."

When I, John, heard these things I turned away from the temple to a desert place. And I grieved greatly in my heart, saying, "How then was the savior appointed, and why was he sent into the world by his Father, and who is his Father who sent him, and of what sort is that aeon to which we shall go? For what did he mean when he said to us, 'This aeon to which you will go is of the type of the imperishable aeon, but he did not teach us concerning the latter, of what sort it is."

Straightway, while I was contemplating these things, behold, the heavens opened and the whole creation which is below heaven shone, and the world was shaken. I was afraid, and behold I saw in the light a youth who stood by me. While I looked at him, he became like an old man. And he changed his likeness (again), becoming like a servant. There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likenesses appeared through each other, and the likeness had three forms.

He said to me, "John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you? - that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you (pl.) always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son. I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what was and what will come to pass, that you may know the things which are not revealed and those which are revealed, and to teach you concerning the unwavering race of the perfect Man. Now, therefore, lift up your face, that you may receive the things that I shall teach you today, and may tell them to your fellow spirits who are from the unwavering race of the perfect Man."

Whenever the testimony of one comes to you claiming to have met Yeshua Christou; whether in visions, dreams, a near death experience, an alien abduction or a UFO encounter, or claims to have had an angelic visitation, or any other similar type of claim: If the same one does not tell you of his own Patmos-Killing then do not partake of the offering of that one. It is an illegal offering not offered at the Door of the Tabernacle according to the commandment, (and Yeshua himself is the Door).

Leviticus 17:3-7 KJV
3. What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4. And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5. To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the Lord.
6. And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord.
7. And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

Original Strong's Ref. #8163
Romanized sa`iyr
Pronounced saw-eer'
or sa`ir {saw-eer'}; from HSN8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun:
KJV--devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

The word sa`iyr translated here as ''devils'' is the same scapegoat for `Azazel from the previous chapter and also the same ''shaggy he-goat'' of Yavan from Daniel 8. That goat is left alive and sent away into the wilderness with all of the sins upon its head for an atonement at a later date, (a day which no man knows the day or the hour but the Father only). To partake of testimony is to eat spiritual food just as Yeshua gave his body on the Cross and is the spotless, perfect, and without blemish, Pesach-Passover Lamb. The same is the meaning of the vision of Peter on the housetop, (Acts 10) when the sheet comes down from heaven with all manner of unclean beasts, creeping things, and fowls of the air. The vision has nothing to do with the eating of physical foods but rather the partaking of the testimony of Gentiles, (which was previously forbidden). Yet what is Peter commanded to do? ''And there came a voice to him, RISE, PETER, KILL AND EAT!'' And then Peter finds out that this concerns Cornelius the centurion and his whole house.

Therefore if you devour the testimony of ''Apocryphon John'' and digest it into your own soul, beginning to fall into agreement with its doctrines, and that particular vessel was not slain in his vision, dream, or visitaion; then you very likely have partaken of a ''live goat''. The supernal meaning of such an action is that the blood is still flowing through its veins and therefore the testimony may not be eaten according to the commandments both old and new. All of Torah is supernal including the repeated warnings in the New Testament concerning eating blood and eating things having been sacrificed to idols. When you devour a book you put that light before your eyes and the lamp of the body is the eye: ''Therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.'' And again: ''The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!''

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Understand that YOU are the house from whence he came
Understand that YOU are the house to which he will attempt to return
Poor ''Apocryphon John'' did not understand these things

daq · Sep 20, 2012

If indeed a man is born with a ''permanent resident spirit'' in addition to his nephesh-soul then why does the first and greatest commandment of all state nothing about loving YHWH our 'Elohey with all of our SPIRIT? Surely the spirit of a man would have been included in the first and greatest commandment of all would it not?

Matthew 22:36-38 KJV
36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.

''With all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind''

Mark 12:28-30 KJV
28. And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

''With all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength''

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 KJV
4. Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:
5. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Deuteronomy 6:5 LIT (Literal Bible with Vertical Strong's #s)
5.
|0157| And you must love
|3068| YHWH,
|0430| your God,
|3605| with all
|3824| [lebab] your heart,
|3605| and with all
|5315| [nephesh] your soul,
|3605| and with all
|3966| [m`od] your strength.

HSN#5315 is of course the ''nephesh-soul'' once again; the same ''soul'' as in all of the previous posts above in this page. However the heart, (''leb'' or ''lebab'') in Hebrew reckoning also implies the thoughts of the mind while the ''reins'' are the deepest and inner most thoughts, (thus Yeshua states in Revelation 2:23 that he is the one ''who searches the reins and hearts'').

Original Strong's Ref. #3824
Romanized lebab
Pronounced lay-bawb'
from HSN3823; the heart (as the most interior organ); used also like HSN3820:
KJV--+ bethink themselves, breast, comfortably, courage, ([faint], [tender-]heart([-ed]), midst, mind, X unawares, understanding.

Original Strong's Ref. #3820
Romanized leb
Pronounced labe
a form of HSN3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything:
KJV--+ care for, comfortably, consent, X considered, courag[-eous], friend[-ly], ([broken-], [hard-], [merry-], [stiff-], [stout-], double) heart([-ed]), X heed, X I, kindly, midst, mind(-ed), X regard([-ed)], X themselves, X unawares, understanding, X well, willingly, wisdom.

There is no mention of man having a separate ''spirit'' in the first and greatest commandment.
And nowhere does Yeshua ever state that a man has a ''spirit'' to be guarded against loss:

Matthew 10:28 KJV
28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: [GSN#5590 psuche] but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [GSN#5590 psuche] and body in hell.

Matthew 11:29 KJV
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls [GSN#5590 psuche].

Matthew 16:26 KJV
26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? [GSN#5590 psuche] or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? [GSN#5590 psuche]

Luke 21:17-19 KJV
17. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18. But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19. In your patience possess ye your souls [GSN#5590 psuche].

Luke 21:19 ASV
19. In your patience ye shall win your souls.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Sep 20, 2012

The temple not made with hands:

Body = Outer Courts
Soul = Holy Place
Spirit = Holy of Holies

The Holy Place hath been made unholy, and must have the veil rent in twain from top to bottom between that sin-tainted soul and a Holy Spirit-indwelt Holy of Holies which cleanses the temple. Only then can the mind-will-emotion faculties of man's soul be conformed to God through the conscience-communion-intuition faculties of man's spirit via the internal residence of the Spirit of Christ.

The only thing that can divide asunder soul and spirt/joints and marrow is the Logos, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

There are thousands of hours of biblical teaching on this topic, and few even have a cursory recognition of the subject. In fact, many deny there is are both a soul and spirit to be divided asunder.

The High Priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek; making His abode within His temple by the Spirit of God. Redeeming, sanctifying, transforming.

Man IS a soul because man HAS a soul.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Sep 20, 2012

daq said:
If indeed a man is born with a ''permanent resident spirit'' in addition to his nephesh-soul then why does the first and greatest commandment of all state nothing about loving YHWH our 'Elohey with all of our SPIRIT? Surely the spirit of a man would have been included in the first and greatest commandment of all would it not?

Matthew 22:36-38 KJV
36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.

''With all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind''…

Mark 12:28-30 KJV
28. And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

''With all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength''…

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 KJV
4. Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:
5. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Deuteronomy 6:5 LIT (Literal Bible with Vertical Strong's #s)
5.
|0157| And you must love
|3068| YHWH,
|0430| your God,
|3605| with all
|3824| [lebab] your heart,
|3605| and with all
|5315| [nephesh] your soul,
|3605| and with all
|3966| [m`od] your strength.

HSN#5315 is of course the ''nephesh-soul'' once again; the same ''soul'' as in all of the previous posts above in this page. However the heart, (''leb'' or ''lebab'') in Hebrew reckoning also implies the thoughts of the mind while the ''reins'' are the deepest and inner most thoughts, (thus Yeshua states in Revelation 2:23 that he is the one ''who searches the reins and hearts'').

Original Strong's Ref. #3824
Romanized lebab
Pronounced lay-bawb'
from HSN3823; the heart (as the most interior organ); used also like HSN3820:
KJV--+ bethink themselves, breast, comfortably, courage, ([faint], [tender-]heart([-ed]), midst, mind, X unawares, understanding.

Original Strong's Ref. #3820
Romanized leb
Pronounced labe
a form of HSN3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything:
KJV--+ care for, comfortably, consent, X considered, courag[-eous], friend[-ly], ([broken-], [hard-], [merry-], [stiff-], [stout-], double) heart([-ed]), X heed, X I, kindly, midst, mind(-ed), X regard([-ed)], X themselves, X unawares, understanding, X well, willingly, wisdom.

There is no mention of man having a separate ''spirit'' in the first and greatest commandment.
And nowhere does Yeshua ever state that a man has a ''spirit'' to be guarded against loss:

Matthew 10:28 KJV
28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: [GSN#5590 psuche] but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [GSN#5590 psuche] and body in hell.

Matthew 11:29 KJV
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls [GSN#5590 psuche].

Matthew 16:26 KJV
26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? [GSN#5590 psuche] or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? [GSN#5590 psuche]

Luke 21:17-19 KJV
17. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18. But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19. In your patience possess ye your souls [GSN#5590 psuche].

Luke 21:19 ASV
19. In your patience ye shall win your souls.

The heart is the conjunctive intersection between spirit and soul. Since thought and volition are soulical functions of the mind and will, the emphasis is upon intentional cognitive activity.

The ministrations of activity are performed within the Holy Place of the temple (soul). Only the High Priest entered and ministrated within the Holy of Holies (spirit). We're the priesthood, not the High Priest. We wouldn't be performing those functions; so the references in scripture include the heart as the internal conjoining point, while concentrating on thoughtful and volitional activity within the perview of our our functionality according to our royal priesthood.

Without an inherent spirit within man, there is no Holy of Holies in which the Spirit of Christ of dwell.

Man is, indeed, tripartite; not bipartite. But a thorough teaching would account for all the misunderstandings of those asserting the bipartite view.

No man's spirit, means no naos (Holy of Holies) for the High Priest to enter; and thus to have the veil rent in twain between it and our soul. Man without a spirit is an unredeemable man; and is man not being the temple not made with hands. The Spirit of God cannot indwell a Holy of Holies that doesn't exist.

daq · Sep 20, 2012

PneumaPsucheSoma said:
The temple not made with hands:

Body = Outer Courts
Soul = Holy Place
Spirit = Holy of Holies

The Holy Place hath been made unholy, and must have the veil rent in twain from top to bottom between that sin-tainted soul and a Holy Spirit-indwelt Holy of Holies which cleanses the temple. Only then can the mind-will-emotion faculties of man's soul be conformed to God through the conscience-communion-intuition faculties of man's spirit via the internal residence of the Spirit of Christ.

The only thing that can divide asunder soul and spirt/joints and marrow is the Logos, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

There are thousands of hours of biblical teaching on this topic, and few even have a cursory recognition of the subject. In fact, many deny there is are both a soul and spirit to be divided asunder.

The High Priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek; making His abode within His temple by the Spirit of God. Redeeming, sanctifying, transforming.

Man IS a soul because man HAS a soul.

You do understand that is the machaira sword in Hebrews 4:12 correct?

Hebrews 4:12 KJV
12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, [GSN#3162 machaira] piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The machaira sword is the sword of spiritual warfare, the same machaira sword of spiritual warfare which Herod took up against James brother of John, (Acts 12:1-2) and immediately thereupon also Peter, (thus beware of the leaven of Herod).

Matthew 10:34-39
34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a machaira-sword.
35. For I am come to sever-dichazo-asunder a man from his father, and the daughter from her mother, and the daughter in law from her mother in law.
36. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39. He that findeth his psuchen-soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and he that apollumi-destroyeth his psuchen-soul for my sake shall find it.

Therefore it is a blessing and a very good thing that the Word is sharper than any two-edged sword; for the OLD MAN SPIRIT must be parted asunder from the soul, otherwise you would both must needs go into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.

Matthew 24:40-42
40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be paralambano-received-near, and the other shall be aphiemi-sent-away, [into destruction].
41. Two shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be paralambano-received-near, and the other shall be aphiemi-sent-away, [into destruction].
42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Therefore if your right hand or foot offend you; well, you know

daq · Sep 20, 2012

PneumaPsucheSoma said:
The heart is the conjunctive intersection between spirit and soul. Since thought and volition are soulical functions of the mind and will, the emphasis is upon intentional cognitive activity.

The ministrations of activity are performed within the Holy Place of the temple (soul). Only the High Priest entered and ministrated within the Holy of Holies (spirit). We're the priesthood, not the High Priest. We wouldn't be performing those functions; so the references in scripture include the heart as the internal conjoining point, while concentrating on thoughtful and volitional activity within the perview of our our functionality according to our royal priesthood.

Without an inherent spirit within man, there is no Holy of Holies in which the Spirit of Christ of dwell.

Man is, indeed, tripartite; not bipartite. But a thorough teaching would account for all the misunderstandings of those asserting the bipartite view.

No man's spirit, means no naos (Holy of Holies) for the High Priest to enter; and thus to have the veil rent in twain between it and our soul. Man without a spirit is an unredeemable man; and is man not being the temple not made with hands. The Spirit of God cannot indwell a Holy of Holies that doesn't exist.

I actually have not stated that man is not designed to eventually become ''Tripartite'' (born from above as in John 3). You see that is the problem: man is created to be the ''vessel'' or ''house'' of the Most High, who indeed does not dwell in buildings made with hands. However, the vessel must first be cleansed-purged-atoned of all the leprosy first, (like cleansing the inside of the cup). Problem is that no one seems to be willing to admit that they have leprosy in the walls of their own house because they prayed a prayer once upon an altar call time, (with fervent emotion).

PneumaPsucheSoma · Sep 20, 2012

daq said:
I actually have not stated that man is not designed to eventually become ''Tripartite'' (born from above as in John 3). You see that is the problem: man is created to be the ''vessel'' or ''house'' of the Most High, who indeed does not dwell in buildings made with hands. However, the vessel must first be cleansed-purged-atoned of all the leprosy first, (like cleansing the inside of the cup). Problem is that no one seems to be willing to admit that they have leprosy in the walls of their own house because they prayed a prayer once upon an altar call time, (with fervent emotion).

And that cleansing comes from man having a spirit (Holy of Holies) from which that is accomplished by it being occupied by the presence of God's Spirit. There is no later "creation" of a spirit within man. The spirit is thanatos, and must be resurrected by the infusion of life by the indwelling and abiding of God's Spirit; but the presence of man's spirit is necessary for physical life.

gasman64 · Sep 20, 2012

PneumaPsucheSoma said:
And that cleansing comes from man having a spirit (Holy of Holies) from which that is accomplished by it being occupied by the presence of God's Spirit. There is no later "creation" of a spirit within man. The spirit is thanatos, and must be resurrected by the infusion of life by the indwelling and abiding of God's Spirit; but the presence of man's spirit is necessary for physical life.

Spirit IS Spirit Pneuma. God IS spirit. There is no other spirit, because God IS spirit. There is not God's spirit and millions of lesser spirits. The spirit in man that God breathed into us was God's spirit. Not a separate spirit. When we die, we sleep. God's spirit leaves until we get a new body.
God already dwells by his spirit in everything that lives. He is the essence of Life. Jesus Christ does not need a separate place to dwell in us because his spirit lives in us now and it is the life that animates us.
Don't you remember? He IS the resurrection and the 'LIFE'

daq · Sep 20, 2012

PneumaPsucheSoma said:
And that cleansing comes from man having a spirit (Holy of Holies) from which that is accomplished by it being occupied by the presence of God's Spirit. There is no later "creation" of a spirit within man. The spirit is thanatos, and must be resurrected by the infusion of life by the indwelling and abiding of God's Spirit; but the presence of man's spirit is necessary for physical life.

The Scripture warns us to test or ''try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world'' yet the only way that one may perform such an action is by what is written in the Word to begin with. Do you know why it is so important that Yeshua must have come in the flesh? It is because the ONLY way that atonement is made is by way of innocent blood; the blood upon the altar is for the atonement of the soul, (Leviticus 17:11, previous page) because the nephesh-soul is in the blood. Thus the perfect, spotless, without blemish, blood of the Lamb of YHWH, is the only thing that may atone for another nephesh-soul which has sinned, (Yeshua poured out his soul unto death, again previous page). You have ignored all of the Scripture written in the OP, then stated that there are thousands of hours of research invested in your doctrine, and now make bold emphatic statements which ignore the Scripture and expect others to simply believe what you say because there are thousands of hours of research supposedly supporting your view. It is a circular reasoning argument. In other words you are asking me to believe you on your word which contradicts even the small amount of Scripture posted on the previous page. As a disciple of the Word I simply cannot believe you because if you have not the Word then you have not Holy Spirit. Spirit cannot be thanatos-death-killed and is either good or evil. Evil ''spirit'' must go into eternal fire and brimstone according to the Word; it may cause death but spirit itself cannot be killed anymore than one can stab spirit with a kitchen knife. It is the soul which must die, (''the soul that sinneth shall die'') and it is the soul which is quickened in Christ Yeshua who was made the quickening Spirit, (previous page again). Therefore without Christ a man has nothing; for when the soul willfully sins, (just as Adam and Eve) the dominion of his mind is forfeited unto the serpent nature. Thus the thoughts, intentions, and motives of the heart and mind of the man are continually corrupted though he knows it not.

John 7:37-39 KJV
37. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39. [But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.]

That one little word ''given'' in italics in the KJV, and underlined in the quote above, is not found in any manuscript. And it changes the entire meaning of the passage:

John 7:37-39 YGB-YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
37. And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink;
38. he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
39. and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

''FOR NOT YET WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT; BECAUSE YESHUA WAS NOT YET GLORIFIED''

If one therefore does not have the Word then the same has not the Holy Spirit.
Are you sure you truly know the fullness of what the following passage portends?

Ephesians 2:1-5 KJV
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]

When was the prince of the power of the air cast out from you to begin with?
How long did he wander in the arid places before returning to his former house?
When did he return with seven other spirits more wicked than himself if you know?
What is the date he was torn from you and cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone?
What is the same date where you stood before the Bematos tou Christou to be decided?
All these dates of mine I now understand even though I did not see them coming, (as a snare).

That same spirit of the children of disobedience is the spirit of the world:

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 KJV
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

If one therefore has not the mind of Christ then the same has not Holy Spirit. The mind of Christ Yeshua may only be received by and through his Doctrine-Word which is the true Manna from heaven. If therefore one has not the Word-Manna from heaven then the same has not Holy Spirit, and has not been baptized INTO the Holy Spirit which is the Word. And the same Holy Spirit was not, until the day when Yeshua was glorified, and therefore it is his Doctrine-Word, which proceeded and proceeds from the Father.

John 2:23-25 KJV
23. Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25. And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Therefore as a disciple of the Word I do not believe the spirit of your words

daq · Sep 23, 2012

2 Chronicles 18:3-24 KJV
3. And Ahab king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat king of Judah, Wilt thou go with me to Ramothgilead? And he answered him, I am as thou art, and my people as thy people; and we will be with thee in the war.
4. And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Inquire, I pray thee, at the word of the Lord to day.
5. Therefore the king of Israel gathered together of prophets four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for God will deliver it into the king's hand.
6. But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the Lord besides, that we might inquire of him?
7. And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, by whom we may inquire of the Lord: but I hate him; for he never prophesied good unto me, but always evil: the same is Micaiah the son of Imla. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.
8. And the king of Israel called for one of his officers, and said, Fetch quickly Micaiah the son of Imla.
9. And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah sat either of them on his throne, clothed in their robes, and they sat in a void place at the entering in of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them.
10. And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah had made him horns of iron, and said, Thus saith the Lord, With these thou shalt push Syria until they be consumed.
11. And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
12. And the messenger that went to call Micaiah spake to him, saying, Behold, the words of the prophets declare good to the king with one assent; let thy word therefore, I pray thee, be like one of theirs, and speak thou good.
13. And Micaiah said, As the Lord liveth, even what my God saith, that will I speak.
14. And when he was come to the king, the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And he said, Go ye up, and prosper, and they shall be delivered into your hand.
15. And the king said to him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou say nothing but the truth to me in the name of the Lord?
16. Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the Lord said, These have no master; let them return therefore every man to his house in peace.
17. And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would not prophesy good unto me, but evil?
18. Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the Lord; I saw the Lord sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
19. And the Lord said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
20. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will entice him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith?
21. And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
22. Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee.
23. Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near, and smote Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way went the spirit of the Lord from me to speak unto thee?
24. And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see on that day when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.

If one truly understands the above passage then the same will understand that his ''spirit'' is his TESTIMONY, like the ''air-wind-breath'' about him, and the spirit of man is therefore transient in its nature. Only the nephesh-soul is permanently housed in the man, until physical death, because the nephesh-soul resides in the blood. The lying-tongued spirit from the passage above has ''two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon'' (iron is spirit in the Scripture whether for the good or for the bad). And the same lying spirit from the passage above speaks by the mouths of the four hundred prophets of Israel to Ahab king of Israel.

Revelation 13:11-15 ASV
11. And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like unto lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12. And he exerciseth all the authority of the first beast in his sight. And he maketh the earth and them dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose death-stroke was healed.
13. And he doeth great signs, that he should even make fire to come down out of heaven upon the earth in the sight of men.
14. And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by reason of the signs which it was given him to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast who hath the stroke of the sword and lived.
15. And it was given unto him to give breath [GSN#4151 pneuma] to it, even to the image to the breast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The heart of the man is the 'adamah-soil of the earth ...

PneumaPsucheSoma · Sep 23, 2012

daq said:
The Scripture warns us to test or ''try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world'' yet the only way that one may perform such an action is by what is written in the Word to begin with. Do you know why it is so important that Yeshua must have come in the flesh? It is because the ONLY way that atonement is made is by way of innocent blood; the blood upon the altar is for the atonement of the soul, (Leviticus 17:11, previous page) because the nephesh-soul is in the blood. Thus the perfect, spotless, without blemish, blood of the Lamb of YHWH, is the only thing that may atone for another nephesh-soul which has sinned, (Yeshua poured out his soul unto death, again previous page).

Absolutely agreed; and there's an even greater significant reality as well.

You have ignored all of the Scripture written in the OP,

I have not ignored scripture.

then stated that there are thousands of hours of research invested in your doctrine, and now make bold emphatic statements which ignore the Scripture and expect others to simply believe what you say because there are thousands of hours of research supposedly supporting your view. It is a circular reasoning argument.

Anyone can do thousands of hours of research and be any degree of wrong. That wasn't the point. Your bold ephatic statements were what I was responding to, not scripture.

In other words you are asking me to believe you on your word which contradicts even the small amount of Scripture posted on the previous page.

No, I'm not asking you to believe anything. And the small amount of scripture you posted was interpreted by you according to your view.

As a disciple of the Word I simply cannot believe you because if you have not the Word then you have not Holy Spirit.

That would be inversely true as well.

Spirit cannot be thanatos-death-killed and is either good or evil.

Thanatos isn't death in the corporeal sense you comprehend. It isn't eradication or annihilation or abrogation of existence. Thanatos is cessation of communion with source environment. When sin came to the soul, the spirit of man wasn't abrogated; the spirit of man's functional faculties of communion, etc. were abrogated. Man's spirit became thanatos, but not non-existent. It wasn't "killed".

Evil ''spirit'' must go into eternal fire and brimstone according to the Word; it may cause death but spirit itself cannot be killed anymore than one can stab spirit with a kitchen knife.

Correct. Cessation of communion and inherent functionality relative to the soul with which it is conjoined during physical life.

It is the soul which must die, (''the soul that sinneth shall die'') and it is the soul which is quickened in Christ Yeshua who was made the quickening Spirit, (previous page again).

Agreed.

Therefore without Christ a man has nothing; for when the soul willfully sins, (just as Adam and Eve) the dominion of his mind is forfeited unto the serpent nature. Thus the thoughts, intentions, and motives of the heart and mind of the man are continually corrupted though he knows it not.

Agreed.

John 7:37-39 KJV
37. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39. [But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.]

Yep. "But this spake He of THE Spirit..." (not A Spirit). Man has a spirit, which must be pierced and divided asunder from his soul; as must the joints (body) from the marrow (soul). The Logos does that within us for us the recieve the Holy Spirit to enter our spirit; just as God's Logos did that within Himself to dispense His OWN Spirit from transcendence into immanent creation.

That one little word ''given'' in italics in the KJV, and underlined in the quote above, is not found in any manuscript. And it changes the entire meaning of the passage:

John 7:37-39 YGB-YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
37. And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink;
38. he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
39. and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

''FOR NOT YET WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT; BECAUSE YESHUA WAS NOT YET GLORIFIED''

Okay. I'm not speaking of the Holy Spirit being "not yet". I'm speaking of man having an inherent spirit that must be renewed BY the HS.

If one therefore does not have the Word then the same has not the Holy Spirit.

Exactly. For one pierces to partition and distribute the other.

Are you sure you truly know the fullness of what the following passage portends?

Ephesians 2:1-5 KJV
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]

When was the prince of the power of the air cast out from you to begin with?
How long did he wander in the arid places before returning to his former house?
When did he return with seven other spirits more wicked than himself if you know?
What is the date he was torn from you and cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone?
What is the same date where you stood before the Bematos tou Christou to be decided?
All these dates of mine I now understand even though I did not see them coming, (as a snare).

That same spirit of the children of disobedience is the spirit of the world:

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 KJV
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Just because I refer to certain "how" processes differently, doesn't mean I don't concur with the overall understanding you're presenting and haven't been through it all.

If one therefore has not the mind of Christ then the same has not Holy Spirit. The mind of Christ Yeshua may only be received by and through his Doctrine-Word which is the true Manna from heaven.

Correct.

If therefore one has not the Word-Manna from heaven then the same has not Holy Spirit, and has not been baptized INTO the Holy Spirit which is the Word.

Correct.

And the same Holy Spirit was not, until the day when Yeshua was glorified, and therefore it is his Doctrine-Word, which proceeded and proceeds from the Father.

Both the Logos and the Spirit proceeded forth/proceedeth at the Divine Utterance whereby all creation came into existence. I can account for our differences. I think you cannot.

John 2:23-25 KJV
23. Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25. And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Therefore as a disciple of the Word I do not believe the spirit of your words …

Okay. I've not been so hasty and am still trying the spirits; and I'm still attempting to see all things reconciled to Christ on this topic in our conversation. Much semantics floating about.

daq · Sep 23, 2012

Ahahh! I appreciate your time investment even though there are things we will obviously agree to diasagree on. One of the greatest tragedies of modern or westernized Christianity is that so often we completely fail to even hear what others actually have to say. It is good to see that you are not so much that kind of person.

Yeshua bless your Bread of Life and Living Water even more!

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