Sorry but science has rules and make believe, superstitions, here say, and all manner of figments of the imagination do not fall under the rules of science. How about you make up another word instead of "Science" to further your beliefs?
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"Why (Almost All) Cosmologists are Atheists"
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
All I am saying is that if you are strictly objectivistic then subjective experience itself, which is the foundation of the construction of the objective domain, or of objecivist methodology... that subjective experience has to be denied (because it is not objective).
There must be validity to sucjectivity as a knowledge base proven via RAA.
So having established that it is a matter of where we draw the lines.
There must be validity to sucjectivity as a knowledge base proven via RAA.
So having established that it is a matter of where we draw the lines.
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Actually that is a part of the qualification to go up in the rapture. The Church will be without spot, blemish or wrinkle. There is a lot of teaching on that in the Bible. The idea is that the Church will be washed and cleansed and pure before God. Her garment or flesh will not be defiled.
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The whole existence of different subjects that can observe the world proves the existence of subjectivity, by definition.
As I said, there is objective evidence for the existence of subjectivity.
As all neurotypical human beings share the same brain template, we can assume that they also roughly share the same neurological traits, including sentience. A p-zombie would look different in an MRI from a normal human being.
So much about the question of whether some people are p-zombies. It's easily answered with materialism. The question of whether all people except for you are p-zombies is much harder to answer, not just for materialism but for every philosophical position.
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
True. But access to this, foundationallyy, is sucjective. Subjectivity grounds science.
Not primarily. The primary experience is first person consciousness. I am not sure that is properly regarded as supporting evidence for strict objectivismm, is it?
Yes by analogy. But analogy with what. The foundation of this reasoning is the subjective experience. In fact all objectivity is in principle a label we give to a domain of data collected via a certain methodology, alongside the inference of an external reality. Objectivity itself is a inductive-probablistic construction based on interpretation subjective experiences, not the other way around. So rooting out the subjective as a matter of principle is philosophically bizarre.
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No, it doesn't. It is true that science is carried out by subjective beings, but that's why it adheres to some strict rules that aim to minimize the subjectivity involved.
As I said, subjectivity can't be eliminated, but it can be controlled.
What analogy are you talking about? Where did I mention an analogy of some sort?
Actually, no.
Logic and the scientific method are objective systems. They are used by subjective beings, but they themselves aren't subjective, even though they may have been invented by subjects.
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
MZungu said:
I beg to disagree; Science in its very nature is empirical. Science does not indulge in the unfalsifiable, hence the spiritual world is beyond the scope of science.
If you think you can do science without using the rules of science ie: empirical evidence, a theory to explain those evidences, and peer review, then you have grossly misunderstood what science is!
His spirit is scientistic I was just pointing out the subjective grounding of science claims. Ad if the subjective is allowed we can talk about thinks like elebnis, life energy, beauty, value, time awareness, intentionality, being in the world, perceptual semantics etc too cant we? Or are these "phenomenological" ideas plain crazy and about as rational as the idea that the moon is a dreaming pixie on drugs, just because they can't be reduced to empirically gathered data sets?
Establishing other minds by analogy rather than direct observation.
Ok fair comment but their being is dependent on subjectivity. If the spiritual world is beyond the scope of science I cannot know I exist, in a world, finding beauty in things, never mind that I can collect data from a subset of that experience. The idea of eliminating all subjectivity is nonsense, and like I asked one has to learn to draw a line (probably a fuxxy one) rather than a priori say "if not objective then not a ground for knowledge in any sense."
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OK, let us take "Beauty". Ask a scientist and he may refer you to a sociologist for answers or to someone who deals with encephalology and even a neurologist. The evidence will point to many reasons why people consider something beautiful. The evidence will contain from hormonal effects to the brain, to race, social background, diet, etc. I say diet because to a Chinese being served a dish of fried scorpions will not only be considered an honour but a beautiful mouth watering dish. Evidence will show that when a child is influenced by society then that influence will reflect upon his reactions to his surroundings. Basically even the feeling of love, happiness, sorrow etc. are the result of hormonal effects on the brain.
Hypotheses and philosophical arguments will start the inquisitive mind but if one is to progress to a better and physical understanding of anything then science and scientific rules are the way to go.
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
i agree withh much of that but I am still fond of the vital ontological argument from goodness of truth of inner life through faith. If a fuller life energy "in Christ" has greater being this is consistent with the truth of Christs doctrine. the consequences of belief are testable in some way. So there can be an experiential inductive yet not scientific basis for religious rationality. Itmakes me feel good? It enhances the value of my living-being. I am more perfect in him, therefore I exist more so Christ has truth. The problem for occam in this one is if you subtract god you subtract the doxastic basis for the experience and the fruitless tree is cut by the father. So ordered interetations are relevant.
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I worked in the scientific community most of my life and cannot recall a single person I encountered that claimed to be an atheist. In fact, most I knew were professed Christians.
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juvenissun
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I never ran across a atheist that was not married to a very christian women. The Bible says the unbeliever is sanctified though the believing wife. If they did end up getting a divorce then it was as if they went to hell in a handbasket very quickly. I mean one girl I know had a husband that divorced her and they tell me it is as if he aged 20 years over night. Also I hear he lost a very nice job playing a instrument in the community band. I guess you can not believe everything your told, but he does not seem to want to come around to give his side of the story to anyone in the group.
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Compared to what, the air quality of people smoking or cooking drugs? Or are you just suggesting that Christians are cleaner and wash their socks more often. They put articles in the newspaper here that if you can smell a house from the street then there is a good chance something illegal is going on there. It is interesting that you bring that up because we are to be [FONT=arial, sans-serif]a [/FONT]sweet smelling[FONT=arial, sans-serif] aroma before God. [/FONT]I was just talking to the housing inspector about the work they do with some people to get them and their house up to the standard set by the community. For me it all comes down to the schools and how highly they are rated and how well the students are doing. Why do you want to start to make a comparison on that level? How many evicted people have you had to go in and clean up after?Next you will be telling us that the quality of air is better in Christian homes!
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Karl - Liberal Backslider
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Psst - Jamin - http://www.christianforums.com/t7686431-4/#post61369340 - non-literal language again. Honestly, I'm meant to be the one with borderline Aspergers...
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It's got nothing to do with "the Bible." Children die before they are born.
Do they accept or reject God? I can only guess. Clearly the Bible or church attendance is not a factor.
So your barking up the wrong tree if you think your knowledge about anything has any influence.
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You are rather quick to put words in peoples mouths they they didn't say. You do quite well down in the "quote mine".
I made no statement one way or the other about agreeing or disagreeing with the OP. I made a statement of my personal experience. Leave it at that.
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