A true Christian is a Temple of God.

A while back you accused me of quoting you out of context to back up my own ideas. I asked you to show me how and when I had done so. A reasonable request, I thought; if I have done something wrong, show me where and give me a chance to explain or put it right.

Can you do that? If not, I'd rather you withdrew the comment - if you can't back it up, it it is a false accusation.

Giver said:

I can’t envision of a spiritual Christian deliberately committing a sin. John says it will not happen. It happened in (Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira, and I don’t know why they ever allowed Satan to get so close to them to frighten them.
What people fail to see is that very few people truly are spiritual Christians. If they still sin that tells them they are not mature Christians.

There is a whole walk that people do not know about to become a spiritual Christian. Only God can teach one to know God, and one needs to know God to become spiritual.

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You cannot envision it because that is your belief, but humor me and answer the question as if a "spiritual" Christian did sin.

Would you say that they should stop being a Christian because they willfully sinned and there is no forgiveness for them?

In other words, you can't admit you are wrong, or have no clue

Yes we are a temple the living church that makes up the Body of Christ.

Giver said:

First I am not going to play what ifs with you.

You need to read what the written Word of God says, and you should come to understand that a spiritual Christian does not sin.

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1 Maybe it would help if you could define "spiritual Christian".

2 I am reading a book at the moment, by an American Pastor, who tells us of a time when he heard God ask him to do something and deliberately ignored him. Is he today a non Christian; outside of God's grace and a quivering wreck because he can do nothing except await his final judgement and eternal punishment? No, he is still an American Pastor with a great ministry and a thriving church.

3 Some people aren't afraid to admit that, at times, they have deliberately disobey God - it's not a case of "what if"; it happens. Yet they are still alive, still believers and are rejoicing in the fact that God forgave them, again.

4 A confession in the CofE prayer book contains the words, "we have sinned, through ignorance, weaklness and our own deliberate fault". That just about covers all areas. Sometimes we don't know that we are sinning; we're ignorant of the fact. Like I hope you don't realise how harsh and unloving some of your posts are. You have been told now, but may have genuinely not realised at the time. And I'm not sitting in judgement because I'm sure my posts are a little tactless at times, or maybe I'm so frustrated by the argument that I post without thinking.
This confession, though, is preceded by the words from 1 John; if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins God is fathful and will forgive us."

God can, and does, forgive sin - any sin, as long as the person is truly sorry and asks for forgiveness.

Giver said:

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”


Years ago I was associated with two hundred or more ministers, most of whom said they were Charismatic. One day when we were at prayer, and many were shouting out how much they loved Jesus; Jesus told me: “no they do not love me.”

Like the verse above, these men failed to live the Word of God.

Jesus gave me scripture telling these men that to love God one needs to live God’s Word. Jesus told me to tell these men they did not love God, and told me to read the scripture he had given to me to read to them.

The more I expierance how Christians believe and think it makes me truly understand why Jesus said the following.

(Matthew 7:13-14) “Enter by the narrow gate since the road that leads to perdition is wide and spacious, and many take it; but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

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So I guess your answer to the question "what is a spirtual Christian?" is, "someone who loves Jesus"?

Great - the thing is that it's possible to know and love him and still sin. He still loves us.
Just as children may rebel, get into all sorts of scrapes and sometimes their parents may not like them very much. They still love them though. We are God's children and NOTHING can ever separate us from his love.

That doesn't answer my comments about the Christians who HAVE deliberately sinned, been genuinely sorry, repented, been resptored and their relationship with God is either back on track or stronger than before.
It doesn't matter whether you can imagine that happening or not - it has and does.

i think i would rather be an unspiritual Christian because then you have forgiveness and Jesus always there

AMEN found in grace. I agree. Who is giver really listening to to say that those "hundreds" of people weren't Christian. I feel sorry for giver.

Blueberrymuffin09 said:

AMEN found in grace. I agree. Who is giver really listening to to say that those "hundreds" of people weren't Christian. I feel sorry for giver.

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He is doing His own thing. And also that which he feels called to do. If he seems judgmental he must know he will be judged as he himself judges.

FoundInGrace said:

i think i would rather be an unspiritual Christian because then you have forgiveness and Jesus always there

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I agree, and said this to Giver in a previous thread.

I think I can see what Paul meat when he was writing to the Romans though - do we sin so that we have more grace and can have Jesus interceding for us? I guess some people might be tempted to sin just so they can have Jesus pray for them. But the answer is the same as it was to the Romans - "by no means". We do not, usually, plan to deliberately sin, because we have new natures and hearts and know that this would hurt God. The thing is, those natures are new but not yet perfect - so when and if we do sin, Jesus is there, interceding for us, and God forgives us.

Heaven forbid that I should ever be content not to need Jesus as my advocate and Saviour.

Giver said:

A spiritual Christian is a home of God’s. Jesus and the Father reside in a Spiritual Christian.

(John 14:21-23) “Whoever holds to my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me; and whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I shall love him and reveal myself to him.' Judas –not Judas Iscariot – said to him, ‘Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world? Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

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Jesus and the Father reside in me and by your definition i am an unspiritual Christian.
i do not believe there are levels of Christians, only depth of relationship with Jesus. We will always need Jesus. The closer we get to Him the more we realize we need Him because we realise more and more how sinful we really are in light of who He is... and therefore we love Him more for still loving us so unconditionally and freely.

I can't help feeling also that this "spiritual Christian" thing is a bit of a red herring - is that the word I mean? Don't know.

Giver has previously said that anyone who knows God and deliberately sins will face great punishment and NOT be forgiven - this is his interpretation of the verse in Hebrews. He has also said that it is important for someone to hear from God personally.

Well many people in the OT did just that - they heard the voice of God, sometimes even saw him as well, or at least had a vision of him - and yet deliberately sinned.
Adam heard God speak to him and tell him not to eat the fruit of a certain tree. Adam had been made by God in his image and had God's own breath, the breath of life, in him. The devil had not appeared to Adam then; he KNEW what God had said, yet he disobeyed.
Moses heard the voice of God in the burning bush. He knew what God was asking him to do, argued with him and gave excuses for not doing it. He made God angry. Later, in the book of numbers, we are told that God told Moses to go and speak to a rock andf they would receive water. Moses did not; he struck it, twice. They still got water but God wasn't pleased that Moses had disobeyed, (Numbers 20:1-12)
David loved God, was appointed and annointed as King and had the power of the Holy Spirit. He KNEW God's commands, and deliberately disobeyed.
Jonah heard the voice of God telling him to go to Ninevah - and deliberately ran away.
Peter saw Jesus, and therefore God, and heard Jesus'prophecy that he would deny him 3 times. Peter even argued and said he'd rather die - he still did it.

Now if I'm not mistaken, Giver's answer to this would be that these people lived before Pentecost - the Spirit had not been poured out and did not live in them. So my next question is, what difference does that make?
All these people KNEW God, had heard his voice speaking to them, KNEW what he wanted of them and deliberately disobeyed. God was angry with all of them for their disobedience, and with the possible exception of Peter, punished them. They sinned deliberately - they were wrong or they wouldn't have been opunished. BUT, did things stay that way? No.
Adam was ashamed because he was naked - God killed an animal, made a robe for him and took away his shame.
Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised Land, but still saw God face to face. Moses appeared with Jesus on the Mount of transfiguration.
David repented, remained king, was called "a man after God's own heart" and God made a covenant with him - a former murderer and adulterer.
Jonah was given a second chance.
Peter was restored and told to feed Jesus' sheep.

These people all knew God, had HEARD his voice, KNEW his word, deliberately sinned, and yet later repented and were restored.
God made us all in his image and gave us the ability to tell right from wrong. Just because these people didn't yet have the fulness of the Spirit, it doesn't excuse their actions. Yet they were all forgiven.

Giver said:

You can believe what you want, but unless you can show that what you believe is scriptural; all you have is your opinion.

Jesus made it so we are able to defeat Satan/sin. Scripture tells us that those who sin are of the devil. Scripture also tells us that one who is of God does not sin.

People are just being fooled if they believe one can be close to Jesus and still sin. Such thinking is a lie from Satan.

You should notice what I just wrote is not my opinion, but is scriptural. I will post the verses that show you that what I said is in the written Word of God.

I read some thing a long time ago that gave an account of some early Christians, who did not have enough trust and faith in Jesus to believe they could live without sinning.

These people because they did not have the trust and faith, would decide to not be baptized until they were about to die. They knew that when one was baptized that all their sins would be forgiven.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

(1 John 5:18) “ We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him”

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then by your understanding of these verses I am of the devil and not born of God.
I wonder if Jesus would agree with you.

Giver, not to sound cynical or anything, but your claim that you are a "perfect Christian" and "never sin" is basically refuted by every post you make.

You quote scripture, which is good, but do not treat these forum members with kindness nor love. I know Im not the only one who feels this way.

Do I say this to be mean, or make myself feel better? No. I say this because I care.

The following I say to all who read this, not just Giver:

Please, think before you post something. Jesus told us to love others as He loved us.

Practice what you preach.

With blessings,
Ryan

The Fire Rises said:

Giver, not to sound cynical or anything, but your claim that you are a "perfect Christian" and "never sin" is basically refuted by every post you make.

You quote scripture, which is good, but do not treat these forum members with kindness nor love. I know Im not the only one who feels this way.

Do I say this to be mean, or make myself feel better? No. I say this because I care.

The following I say to all who read this, not just Giver:

Please, think before you post something. Jesus told us to love others as He loved us.

Practice what you preach.

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Thank you.

I don't even know why we respond to Giver's posts anymore, honestly.... It's a lost cause