Religion or relationship?

redphantom said:

I was raised Lutheran and always just kinda went with the flow. Later I went to a non-denominational college and everybody there was like "Christianity is not a religion but a relationship". Now I'm back in the Lutheran church I feel like there is more focus on the trappings than on God and forget about a personal relationship with him. They are more concerned with the placement of the furniture and the wearing of vestments than getting people to pray or read scripture.

Is this something common in Lutheran churches and I just didn't notice before or is this more specific to the congregation I attend?

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I'm not sure you could say we're more concerned with placement and whatnot...it just has a very important part in our worship. I guess you would need to expound upon what you mean when you say there is more focus on them.

I love a good old traditional liturgical service. When there is not a real altar up front, or when the pastor does not wear a robe, or when we use a substitute liturgy, my worship can be distracted. It doesn't mean I place more emphasis on those things, it means that I enjoy worshiping in a certain manner. Were I to permanently lose those things, I'd adapt and be fine.

I am certain that this is true on a congregational level, and to a lesser degree on a synodical level. There must be a special balance in the working relationship between the pastor(s) and church council to have a thriving congregation. A struggling church typically features a church council without much vision or ambition - usually satisfied with maintaining - and a complacent pastor.

Ultimately, the responsibility falls to you and I to look after our spiritual well-being. This is what Paul meant when he wrote in the Philippian epistle, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" much as Peter had proclaimed at Pentecost, "save yourselves from this crooked generation". The community of believers which we belong to can do many things to help, but the salvific relationship is personal and familial with God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

What you may not realize is that what you are seeing in the Lutheran church is very similar to the way Christians have worshiped since the very beginning. It's not that there is a focus on outward trappings, but that there is rich symbolism and meaningful ritual associated with the Divine Service.

Remember that worship is not something we do to please God, but it is God pouring out his gifts upon us and our response in reverent thankfulness and praise. The vestments of the pastor remind us that a man is present, but that God is using him to speak to us and to distribute tangible forgiveness to us in the sacraments. The Liturgy is not just some old-fashioned, stodgy way of doing church, it is a time-tested, tried-and-true order of reverently receiving God's gifts and returning thanks. It is the way the Apostles worshiped and taught the Church to worship in a timeless manner, not being blown about by every wind of fad or fashion.

The way you worship is based on your theology. If your theology is Christ-centered, focused on God's grace and Christ's work done on our behalf to save us, then your worship will look like the traditional liturgy. If your theology is man-centered, focused on man's good deeds, feelings and decisions, then your worship will look like the pietistic, experiential, emotional services of the heirs of revivalism.

The way non-denoms do church is only a few decades old, and must constantly change to maintain it's focus on fads and trends. It is very man-centered, manipulative of emotions (mystical), appealing to man's reason (rationalistic), and focuses on helping us to seek happiness through obedience to God's law (moralism).

Three Broken Ladders « The World Wide Wolfmueller

If you've been out of Lutheran circles for a while, I would suggest two brief, inexpensive books recently published that could help you to regain what you may have lost.

Spirituality of the Cross Revised Edition: Gene Edward Veith: 9780758613035: Amazon.com: Books
Amazon.com: Grace Upon Grace: Spirituality for Today (9780758613042): John W. Kleinig: Books

Also, a very good inexpensive book that will help you to cultivate a deeper appreciation for liturgical worship is this:
Amazon.com: Heaven on Earth: The Gifts of Christ in the Divine Service (9780758606716): Arthur A., Jr. Just: Books

My suggestion is that you may want to review the catechism again. Ask the Pastor if he would take you through it to review.

shanethetheologian said:

A struggling church typically features a church council without much vision or ambition - usually satisfied with maintaining - and a complacent pastor.

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I would agree with this, except the "complacent pastor" part. It's more like a pastor whose hands are tied by the maintaining and unambitious council. With a full congregational polity, the pastor does not have a lot of influence over the entrenched leadership.

redphantom said:

Now I'm back in the Lutheran church I feel like there is more focus on the trappings than on God and forget about a personal relationship with him. They are more concerned with the placement of the furniture and the wearing of vestments than getting people to pray or read scripture.

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I'm a convert to Lutheranism, from Presbyterian. I did a stint in a non-denom in college where the focus was very much on your relationship with God -- how strong it was, what you were doing to "feed" and "nurture" it, what the fruit was in your life, etc.

I've come to realize that Lutheran doctrine definitely deals with our relationship with God. But it does it in a different way. The relationship is from our adoption in baptism, and whenever the Pastor speaks of baptism (which is often), he's speaking to our relationship with God. Whenever we confess, or say the Creed, or pray the Lord's Prayer together, we are admitting our "relationship" with God. Or rather, what He has done to reconcile us to Him -- to bring us into right relationship with Him.

It's not about whether I've "asked Jesus into my heart", or whether I pray and study every day, or whether I serve the poor and needy in my community. That's what my non-denom focused on. On me and my works (or lack thereof).

Lutheran worship seems to be much more focused on what God has done to atone for the sins of a broken creation, on God giving me a recognition of my own sinfulness and bringing me to repentance and confession, on us being fed and forgiven by His word and sacrament, and on God strengthening and training us to go forth in the world refreshed and ready to do the work He has prepared for us to do.

It may not seem as overtly focused on prayer and Bible study as the non-denoms, but in truth I've learned more about the Bible and studied and prayed more, and grown more in fruit as a Lutheran than I ever did in the non-denom.

synger said:

It may not seem as overtly focused on prayer and Bible study as the non-denoms, but in truth I've learned more about the Bible and studied and prayed more, and grown more in fruit as a Lutheran than I ever did in the non-denom.

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Baptist/Non-Denom-convert-to-Lutheran diddos.

re·li·gion/riˈlijən/
Noun:
The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
Details of belief as taught or discussed.

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Don't believe people who say that Christianity isn't a religion. It is a religion, and also relationship.

The mere existence of God gives us a religion, the fact that God loves us enough to send His son to die for us makes it a relationship.

Firecycle said:

Don't believe people who say that Christianity isn't a religion. It is a religion, and also relationship.

The mere existence of God gives us a religion, the fact that God loves us enough to send His son to die for us makes it a relationship.

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The people who say that Christianity isn't a religion don't want to go back to the Old Testament and remember how God created the one true religion and how all the others are false. They knock down religion because of all the false ones flying around and because of a lot of man-made things have have infiltrated.

As others have said, Lutherans are Christ-oriented and not ME oriented. If you're so busy looking at YOUR relationship, are you concentrating on God's relationship to you? Probably not. But who knows?

LilLamb219 said:

The people who say that Christianity isn't a religion don't want to go back to the Old Testament and remember how God created the one true religion and how all the others are false. They knock down religion because of all the false ones flying around and because of a lot of man-made things have have infiltrated.

As others have said, Lutherans are Christ-oriented and not ME oriented. If you're so busy looking at YOUR relationship, are you concentrating on God's relationship to you? Probably not. But who knows?

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I think it's worded best with how LilLam said it's Christ-oriented and not all about me me me.

I think one of the biggest flaws with other churches (especially non-denom ones) are the focus on feelings. Do you feel God working in you? Do you feel like God is talking to you? And then when you don't feel anything, you don't feel as though you are saved, have faith, and then even start to question the existence of God.

It's a relationship in the fact you have a direct line of communication. You don't need to go through people. But never forget the promises we have. If you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord, you don't need to question whether you feel anything or not.

Coming from a non-denominational background and knowing how my mom is when she visits, it's very hard to discern that the liturgy is not just repeated actions every week. They aren't rituals at all. It's order, and reverent order. It's so we keep our focus on Christ. We aren't drawn for the entertainment aspect of a service.

We don't pray to feel God moving. We pray for God to move us.

dario68w said:

I think it's worded best with how LilLam said it's Christ-oriented and not all about me me me.

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But how can you have a "relationship" with God and focus on his "relationship" with you without making it about you even a little bit? I mean, religion is very individual to every person so in that sense itsn't it about you? Sorry I am confused I guess.

Tangled24 said:

But how can you have a "relationship" with God and focus on his "relationship" with you without making it about you even a little bit? I mean, religion is very individual to every person so in that sense itsn't it about you? Sorry I am confused I guess.

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The most important relationship is God's relationship to us instead of focusing on our relationship to Him. He's the one doing. He's the one dying. He's the one redeeming. He's the one bringing us to faith so we can believe. Why muddle it up by looking back at my sinful self?

What do you mean by ceremony more than on relationship? We've told you that God's relationship to us is what is important to us, without that, who are we?

redphantom said:

I see that the Lutheran church does put more emphasis on ceremony than on a relationship. I see I will have much pray and meditation on what to do next.

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How did you arrive at that?

Aibrean said:

I think one of the biggest flaws with other churches (especially non-denom ones) are the focus on feelings. Do you feel God working in you? Do you feel like God is talking to you? And then when you don't feel anything, you don't feel as though you are saved, have faith, and then even start to question the existence of God.

It's a relationship in the fact you have a direct line of communication. You don't need to go through people. But never forget the promises we have. If you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord, you don't need to question whether you feel anything or not.

Coming from a non-denominational background and knowing how my mom is when she visits, it's very hard to discern that the liturgy is not just repeated actions every week. They aren't rituals at all. It's order, and reverent order. It's so we keep our focus on Christ. We aren't drawn for the entertainment aspect of a service.

We don't pray to feel God moving. We pray for God to move us.

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This is very well said. I think in the Lutheran Church as also stated there is more of a focus on what God has done and his relationship to us versus our feelings which are more stressed in a nondenominational type of environment.

redphantom said:

Sorry I haven't been back in a while. We're farmers and harvest started early this year so we had to rush to get things going.
I want to thank you all for replying. I see that the Lutheran church does put more emphasis on ceremony than on a relationship. I see I will have much pray and meditation on what to do next.

Thanks again

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In a way our "ceremony" is part of our relationship with God.

But the way you put it makes it sound so negative, I'm interested in what conclusions you have underneath that big ceremony umbrella.