Mary and the Scriptures

Godel said:

Matthew 12:46-50 makes it pretty clear that Jesus saw His mother having no particularly higher status than anyone who followed God.

Click to expand...

Do you believe that Jesus obeyed the commandment to "honor your mother"? If so, in what way?

Godel said:

Also interesting to note that whenever Jesus directly addressed Mary in Scripture, He calls her "woman", didn't call her His "mother".

Click to expand...

It is interesting to note. There is another person in Scripture whose name is 'woman' -- it might be of benefit to you to discover who that is. (point #1)

However, if you're implying somehow that Jesus does not call Mary his mother because he has somehow 'separated' himself from that relationship, I'd just point out that Scripture refers to Mary as the mother of Jesus on multiple occasions, throughout the same period of time you're noting that he himself did not call her 'mother'. Your view would place Jesus, the Word (as refusing to identify or call Mary as mother) in conflict with the written word, the Scriptures, who call Mary his mother. As the Word and the written word are not contradictory, I'd suggest looking for a different reason as to why Jesus refers to Mary as "woman" -- see point #1.

I would just like to post some excerps from sermons by Martin Luther, the founder of Protestanism. These were sermons given after his 95 thesis was posted. This is just to show where the protestant church started and to highlight how they have diverted:

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." (Sermon, September 1, 1522)

"[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures." (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

"One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. "(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521). Sorry I don't have a more specific date for this one.

"Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother." (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

"No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity." (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

I find it sad how things how drastically things have changed in just the last 500 years.

narnia59 said:

Do you believe that Jesus obeyed the commandment to "honor your mother"? If so, in what way?

Click to expand...

Obviously He followed the commandment. He followed it in the same way every Christian should honor their parents.

It is interesting to note. There is another person in Scripture whose name is 'woman' -- it might be of benefit to you to discover who that is. (point #1)

However, if you're implying somehow that Jesus does not call Mary his mother because he has somehow 'separated' himself from that relationship, I'd just point out that Scripture refers to Mary as the mother of Jesus on multiple occasions, throughout the same period of time you're noting that he himself did not call her 'mother'. Your view would place Jesus, the Word (as refusing to identify or call Mary as mother) in conflict with the written word, the Scriptures, who call Mary his mother. As the Word and the written word are not contradictory, I'd suggest looking for a different reason as to why Jesus refers to Mary as "woman" -- see point #1.

Click to expand...

There is no "conflict" in my view other than one you're attempting to add into it. I never said Mary was not Jesus' mother. I said that Jesus is only recorded as calling her "woman", and that He does not ascribe any special status to her.

Further, Jesus calling her "woman" does in no way imply a connection to Eve. "Woman" occurs over 300 times in Scripture. The vast majority of the time, it does not refer to Mary or Eve. There's no Scriptural basis for Jesus meaning anything other than "human female". Quite to the contrary, Eve was Adam's wife. Who is Jesus' wife? Scripture is clear that the Christian church, not Mary, is Jesus' wife.

Godel said:

Obviously He followed the commandment. He followed it in the same way every Christian should honor their parents.

Click to expand...

The one commentary on the Ten Commandments that I find particularly useful is the idea that they were delivered on two tablets, with the first five dealing with heavenly things, and the last five dealing with how those first five heavenly things are mandated in our day to day lives.

In this understanding, "honor thy mother and father" belongs as the last commandment on the first tablet, for our parents are our co-creators.
In this scenario, the way we honor our mother is shown in the corresponding tenth commandment, which is about coveting. We honor our mother, by honoring that which she created, namely ourselves. Those who covet are those who wish that they were someone else, someone who has what our neighbour has.
Jesus honored his mother then, and his father too, by accepting the kind of life that they had laid out for him.

There is no "conflict" in my view other than one you're attempting to add into it. I never said Mary was not Jesus' mother. I said that Jesus is only recorded as calling her "woman", and that He does not ascribe any special status to her.

Further, Jesus calling her "woman" does in no way imply a connection to Eve. "Woman" occurs over 300 times in Scripture. The vast majority of the time, it does not refer to Mary or Eve. There's no Scriptural basis for Jesus meaning anything other than "human female". Quite to the contrary, Eve was Adam's wife. Who is Jesus' wife? Scripture is clear that the Christian church, not Mary, is Jesus' wife.

Click to expand...

Those who want us to consider typologies need to explain why the other references to Queen of Heaven likewise are not the proper typologies to be using when referencing a certain kind of relationship to Mary.

Godel said:

Obviously He followed the commandment. He followed it in the same way every Christian should honor their parents.


There is no "conflict" in my view other than one you're attempting to add into it. I never said Mary was not Jesus' mother. I said that Jesus is only recorded as calling her "woman", and that He does not ascribe any special status to her.

Further, Jesus calling her "woman" does in no way imply a connection to Eve. "Woman" occurs over 300 times in Scripture. The vast majority of the time, it does not refer to Mary or Eve. There's no Scriptural basis for Jesus meaning anything other than "human female". Quite to the contrary, Eve was Adam's wife. Who is Jesus' wife? Scripture is clear that the Christian church, not Mary, is Jesus' wife.

Click to expand...

You say that Jesus refers to his mother, in public, by a title whereby he means nothing other than "human female". And this is honoring her as you say all Christians should honor their mother? Is this the model of honoring our mother we are supposed to imitate and follow -- publicly address her with a term that not only does not acknowledge her as our mother but means nothing more than "human female"? That's a pretty hard sell, don't you think?

The relationship of the typology of Adam/Eve to Jesus/Mary is not determined by the husband/wife relationship but rather by the taking of flesh. Eve receives her flesh from Adam and Jesus receives his flesh from Mary. Or, as St. Paul says "Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord. For just as woman came from man, so man is born of woman; but all things are from God." 1 Corinthians 11:12

Fill in the blanks. "For just as woman (Eve) came from man (Adam), so man (Christ, the new Adam) is born of woman (who would be -- yes, that's right -- Mary)"

The first woman (Eve) came from the flesh of the first man (Adam); the new Adam, Christ comes from the flesh of Mary. Galatians 4: 4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to ransom those under the law, so that we might receive adoption.

SolomonVII said:

The one commentary on the Ten Commandments that I find particularly useful is the idea that they were delivered on two tablets, with the first five dealing with heavenly things, and the last five dealing with how those first five heavenly things are mandated in our day to day lives.

In this understanding, "honor thy mother and father" belongs as the last commandment on the first tablet, for our parents are our co-creators.
In this scenario, the way we honor our mother is shown in the corresponding tenth commandment, which is about coveting. We honor our mother, by honoring that which she created, namely ourselves. Those who covet are those who wish that they were someone else, someone who has what our neighbour has.
Jesus honored his mother then, and his father too, by accepting the kind of life that they had laid out for him.

Click to expand...

Scripture reference please that indicates the commandments were equally divided between the two tablets and had that kind of correspondence to each other? Or that the way we honor our parents is by honoring ourselves?

Christ indicates that at least one way we honor our parents is providing financial support if needed. How does that fit into this theory?

SolomonVII said:

Those who want us to consider typologies need to explain why the other references to Queen of Heaven likewise are not the proper typologies to be using when referencing a certain kind of relationship to Mary.

Click to expand...

When I run across someone who has a relationship to Mary that puts her in the place of God, I'll consider that.

CatholicFlame said:

no catholic places mary in the place of God! that is the whole point, and yet people STILL ACCUSE US of this.

1) if i ask another person to pray for me, that is not putting them in the place of God!!!! ahhh

2) if i believe that mary and the saints are still alive, i am just believing what Jeus said when he said "all of them are alive to God"!!! ahh

accept these two premise, TWO PREMISES, and T W O P R E M I S E S !!! and you can accept the prayer of the saints.

but no, NO you wont accept because why? prejudice, bias, and who knows what else.

two premises, both are true. period.

Click to expand...

Since you believe that, what do you think of the Lady of All Nations, a Marian vision? She wants to be the advocate.

The following are excerpts from Roman Catholic prayers, according to the website www .catholic.org

1. "Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and earth," from Affectuate Salutations to Mary.
2. "Hail, Expiation (atonement) of the whole universe!"; "Hail, O you who cleansed us from the stain of pagan worship! Hail, O you who saved us from the mire of evil deeds!"; "Hail, O Resurrection of mankind!"; "Hail, O Pillar of Fire who guided those in darkness!"; "Hail, O salvation of my soul!" - all addressed to Mary, from Akathist Hymn to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
3. "Thou (Mary) hast only to will our salvation, and then it is not possible that we should not obtain it," from Aspiration to the Most Blessed Mary.
4. "Perpetual help we beg of thee (Mary); our souls from sin and sorrow free;" from O Mother of Perpetual Help.
5. "Hell awaits my death in order to accuse me;… My Mother, what will become of me? If thou dost not help me, I am lost." from O my most sweet Mother, how shall I die, poor sinner that I am.
6. "Which thou (Mary) mayest open to us at thy good pleasure,… the riches of love and mercy, light and salvation," from Our Lady of the Sacred Heart.
7. "Thou (Mary) who from the beginning hast received from God the power and mission to crush the head of Satan," from Our Lady, Queen of Angels.
8. "O valiant Lady, you have conquered hell." from Prayer to Immaculate Mary.
9. "You, who are our Mother, will obtain the strength of the Holy Spirit as you obtained it for the community of the apostles gathered in the upper room." from Prayer to Mary Queen of Apostles.
10. "I shall fear.. not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single prayer from thee (Mary)." from Prayer to Our Lady of Perpetual Help.
11. "Thou art the Mother of Mercies,… and only refuge of the needy and the orphan,… wither can I fly for more secure shelter,… than under the wings of thy maternal protection?" from Thirty Day Prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary - In Honour of the Sacred Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we have:
1. Mary is omnipotent.
2. She atoned for the entire universe; cleansed us; saved us; she is the resurrection; she's a pillar of fire leading those in the dark (this is what God did for Israel in the wilderness); she's the salvation of our soul.
3. We are saved simply by her willing it.
4. Mary frees us from sin.
5. Only Mary's help can prevent us from being condemned to hell.
6. Mary opens salvation to us.
7. Mary crushed Satan's head.
8. Mary conquered hell.
9. Mary brought the Holy Spirit to the disciples in the upper room.
10. Mary's intercession is what secures our judgement into eternal life.
11. Our only refuge is Mary.

Seems to be a whole lot of attributes of God that the Roman Catholic Church likes to give Mary credit for. Roman Cathoics can say, "we don't worship Mary," all they want, but their Roman Catholic prayers say something different.

narnia59 said:

You say that Jesus refers to his mother, in public, by a title whereby he means nothing other than "human female". And this is honoring her as you say all Christians should honor their mother? Is this the model of honoring our mother we are supposed to imitate and follow -- publicly address her with a term that not only does not acknowledge her as our mother but means nothing more than "human female"? That's a pretty hard sell, don't you think?

Click to expand...

I'm only relating what Scripture says. Jesus said, "woman", did He not? "Woman" is the term for a human female, is it not? It may be a "hard sell", but I'm not sure everything in Scripture is easy for everyone to accept. Your unwillingness to accept it, though, does not make Scripture any less true.

The relationship of the typology of Adam/Eve to Jesus/Mary is not determined by the husband/wife relationship but rather by the taking of flesh. Eve receives her flesh from Adam and Jesus receives his flesh from Mary. Or, as St. Paul says "Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord. For just as woman came from man, so man is born of woman; but all things are from God." 1 Corinthians 11:12

Fill in the blanks. "For just as woman (Eve) came from man (Adam), so man (Christ, the new Adam) is born of woman (who would be -- yes, that's right -- Mary)"

Click to expand...

Christ is the new Adam. While man may be born of woman, Adam was NOT born from Eve. So your little analogy falls short.

Godel said:

The following are excerpts from Roman Catholic prayers, according to the website www .catholic.org

1. "Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and earth," from Affectuate Salutations to Mary.
2. "Hail, Expiation (atonement) of the whole universe!"; "Hail, O you who cleansed us from the stain of pagan worship! Hail, O you who saved us from the mire of evil deeds!"; "Hail, O Resurrection of mankind!"; "Hail, O Pillar of Fire who guided those in darkness!"; "Hail, O salvation of my soul!" - all addressed to Mary, from Akathist Hymn to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
3. "Thou (Mary) hast only to will our salvation, and then it is not possible that we should not obtain it," from Aspiration to the Most Blessed Mary.
4. "Perpetual help we beg of thee (Mary); our souls from sin and sorrow free;" from O Mother of Perpetual Help.
5. "Hell awaits my death in order to accuse me;… My Mother, what will become of me? If thou dost not help me, I am lost." from O my most sweet Mother, how shall I die, poor sinner that I am.
6. "Which thou (Mary) mayest open to us at thy good pleasure,… the riches of love and mercy, light and salvation," from Our Lady of the Sacred Heart.
7. "Thou (Mary) who from the beginning hast received from God the power and mission to crush the head of Satan," from Our Lady, Queen of Angels.
8. "O valiant Lady, you have conquered hell." from Prayer to Immaculate Mary.
9. "You, who are our Mother, will obtain the strength of the Holy Spirit as you obtained it for the community of the apostles gathered in the upper room." from Prayer to Mary Queen of Apostles.
10. "I shall fear.. not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single prayer from thee (Mary)." from Prayer to Our Lady of Perpetual Help.
11. "Thou art the Mother of Mercies,… and only refuge of the needy and the orphan,… wither can I fly for more secure shelter,… than under the wings of thy maternal protection?" from Thirty Day Prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary - In Honour of the Sacred Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we have:
1. Mary is omnipotent.
2. She atoned for the entire universe; cleansed us; saved us; she is the resurrection; she's a pillar of fire leading those in the dark (this is what God did for Israel in the wilderness); she's the salvation of our soul.
3. We are saved simply by her willing it.
4. Mary frees us from sin.
5. Only Mary's help can prevent us from being condemned to hell.
6. Mary opens salvation to us.
7. Mary crushed Satan's head.
8. Mary conquered hell.
9. Mary brought the Holy Spirit to the disciples in the upper room.
10. Mary's intercession is what secures our judgement into eternal life.
11. Our only refuge is Mary.

Seems to be a whole lot of attributes of God that the Roman Catholic Church likes to give Mary credit for. Roman Cathoics can say, "we don't worship Mary," all they want, but their Roman Catholic prayers say something different.

Click to expand...

Never mind my initial request; I found them.

First, where is the prayer that says Mary is "omnipotent" please? And which prayer says that we worship Mary as God?

Mark Shea (former evangelical) does an excellent coverage of the more "flowery" language of Marian prayers in his trilogy of books, "Mary, the mother of the Son". I think it's in the 3rd volume. He says the most helpful thing in understanding Marian prayers to him of this nature was not his theology degree, but his degree in English literature. For these are not the theological prayers of the church you have here (which are the only real standard of official Catholic teaching), but rather "love letters" written by individuals.

It is little wonder that Protestant/Evangelical types freak out at these types of prayers. You take an aspect of Catholic devotion and try to place it into an Evangelical framework. No wonder it doesn't make any sense to you. When you place Catholic devotion to Mary into an Evangelical framework of salvation (which is completely monergistic, Jesus does it ALL, we have no role in our own salvation or others), OF COURSE Marian devotion doesn't fit.

Let me ask you this. When you read in Scripture where it says that St. Paul healed a man (Acts 28:8), does it freak you out in the same way? Do you rip it out of the context of Scripture and proclaim that Scripture teaches that Paul has the power to heal, apart from Christ?

How about when Paul tells Timothy (1 Tim 4:15-16) to "Practice these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers." Do you proclaim that Paul teaches that Timothy is the savior in place of Christ?

How about in 1 Corinthians 9:22 when Paul says that "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some." Does it bother you that Paul indicates that he might be the salvation of some? Do you interpret it to mean "apart from Christ"?

Why do you not take issue with these aspects of Scripture? Probably because you place them in the context of whole of Scripture and realize that they in no way threaten or replace the redeeming work of Christ, without which Paul has no ministry of salvation or healing at all.

Yet you have no problem taking excerpts of Marian prayers out of the context of Catholic teaching and framework, and profess they mean something completely contrary to what Catholics teach and profess. This is why Catholics (at least knowledgeable ones) aren't impacted by such claims -- we know what the church teaches and professes about Mary, and know your claims of what these prayers mean are false. We know that nothing that Mary has done or can do is apart from Christ.

One thing Evangelicals really need to work out though -- do we really play no role in our own salvation or the salvation of others? Because I see prayer requests posted on the internet all the time -- "Please pray for the salvation of my son", etc. At the same time professing we play no role in our own salvation or that of others. Two completely contradictory ways of thinking at work. Yet if a Catholic professes a belief that perhaps the prayers of Mary might play a role in someone's salvation, that becomes putting Mary in the role of God. Hmm.

duplicate

Godel said:

I'm only relating what Scripture says. Jesus said, "woman", did He not? "Woman" is the term for a human female, is it not? It may be a "hard sell", but I'm not sure everything in Scripture is easy for everyone to accept. Your unwillingness to accept it, though, does not make Scripture any less true.

Click to expand...

You are not only relating what Scripture says. You've denied any possible interpretation that would point the use of "woman" back to Eve, and you've claimed that 'There's no Scriptural basis for Jesus meaning anything other than "human female"' when calling Mary 'woman', which diminishes his relationship with Mary to one of the crowd, just another human female as far as he's concerned, but yet hey, he honors his mother! Gotta love it when people put their own interpretive layer over Scripture and because someone disagrees with their interpretation feel they can then make the claim to only be relating what Scripture says, so therefore you're unwilling to accept the truth of Scripture.

Godel said:

Christ is the new Adam. While man may be born of woman, Adam was NOT born from Eve. So your little analogy falls short.

Click to expand...

Only if St. Paul's analogy of Christ as the new Adam falls short. He identifies Christ as the new Adam, even though Adam has no human mother, and Christ does. And it is St. Paul who points out that "for just as" woman is created from the flesh of man, NOW man is born from the flesh of woman. While Eve was created from the flesh of Adam, NOW Christ is born from the flesh of Mary.

First, where is the prayer that says Mary is "omnipotent" please?

Click to expand...

First line.

Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and earth

Click to expand...

SolomonVII said:

First, where is the prayer that says Mary is "omnipotent" please?
​

First line.

Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and earth
​

Click to expand...

Is Paul praying for the Colossians to become omnipotent?

Colossians 1:11 "May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy".

Paul is praying for the Colossians to be given "all power". And who is the giver? God -- who has "eternal power" (Romans 1:20) which is the theological view of what omnipotence means in relation to God. Is he praying for them to become omnipotent in place of or along with God? Now that would be a silly thought, wouldn't it?

This prayer is not claiming God's omnipotence for Mary. Please note it refers not to power that Mary is the cause or source of, but rather to the power that "has been given" to her. God is the source of the power that Mary has received. Just as Scripture refers to our sharing his divine power (2 Cor 10:4), and Stephen is referred to as "full of power" (Acts 6:8).

So Paul can pray for "all power" to be given to the Colossians, and Scripture can say that we share in God's divine power, and Stephen can be referred to as "full of" power, but if Catholics refer that "all power" has been given to Mary, somehow that places Mary as equal to God's omnipotence.

Do you see how silly these accusations can sound when they are placed in the context of Scripture and legitimate Catholic teaching?

asiyreh said:

Ever hear the expression a picture speaks a thousand words. Well here's three.

These pictures represent the breaking of two commandments for the price of one.

A. Worshiping false gods, namely the aforementioned Ishtar for that's exactly who this is. Usually appearing in this garb - Isis, or one of her other favorites the goddess of reason or any number of others...

Click to expand...

Mary is no more Isis than Horus is Jesus. Although the modern day pagans would disagree with that, they would tell you that they are both simply copies of what was already in paganism. Unfortunately, Christians help support their view with nonsense such as this.

asiyreh said:

B. Now maybe you Catholics mightn't be aware of this commandment. I certainly wasn't, but it's the second,

I've highlighted the beginning of the commandment in bold meaning you should read it slowly.

You will NOT make onto yourselves graven images of anything in heaven

Click to expand...

Evidently you never read your catechism if you were not aware of this commandment.

However, if you would like to point out to me where the Bible identifies this as commandment #2? You do realize the Bible does not number the commandments, correct? It tells us there are 10, but does not number them. The commandments 'list' in Exodus 20 contains 2 "you shalls", 10 "you shall nots", 1 "remember", and 1 "honor" for 14 total. The list in Deuteronomy contains 3 "you shalls", 6 "you shall nots", 4 "neither shall you", 1 "observe" and 1 "honor" for 15 total.

So, there are multiple "man-made" numbering systems to try to fit them into the 10. All have abbreviated versions that leave out much of the text, and reduce the text to 10.

But if you had read the catechism when you were Catholic you would have seen the full text of both Deuteronomy and Exodus, so there's no real excuse for, as a Catholic, not knowing the whole text, regardless of how they're numbered.

So is that nativity set my local Baptist church places on the lawn at Christ a violation of making graven images of something in heaven?

asiyreh said:

Also have a read at these verses again and try to see if you can guess the parallel.

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it NOT: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Revelation 22:8-9

I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her. Luke 1:38

Click to expand...

You do realize (surely) that bowing does not equate worship? The example you give from Revelations says John fell down "to worship" the angel. That was his purpose, so yes the angel corrected him. Yet there are dozens of examples in Scripture of people bowing and prostrating themselves before other people which the Bible does not condemn but recognizes as a sign of respect.

Pagan cultures believed they could create an image with their own hands and it would become a god, and they would worship it. This is what the commandment is addressing. It does not ban the creation of all images. It does not ban bowing as a sign of respect. It bans creating an image that you believe then becomes a god, and worshipping it as a god. When I see that happening, I'll pounce right on it.

Of course, in today's world we create all kinds of images that are prone to worship -- cars, houses, movie stars, sex..... much more risk in bowing down to Baal in these ways, these days. Not to mention the occult, etc. The catechim talks about all these ways in which we can have other gods besides the Lord, our God that would be in violation of this commandme. You might want to read up on it, as you seem to have a pretty limited, restricted view of its intent and purpose.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1

Originally Posted by SolomonVII

narnia59 said:

Is Paul praying for the Colossians to become omnipotent?

Colossians 1:11 "May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy".

Paul is praying for the Colossians to be given "all power". And who is the giver? God -- who has "eternal power" (Romans 1:20) which is the theological view of what omnipotence means in relation to God. Is he praying for them to become omnipotent in place of or along with God? Now that would be a silly thought, wouldn't it?

This prayer is not claiming God's omnipotence for Mary. Please note it refers not to power that Mary is the cause or source of, but rather to the power that "has been given" to her. God is the source of the power that Mary has received. Just as Scripture refers to our sharing his divine power (2 Cor 10:4), and Stephen is referred to as "full of power" (Acts 6:8).

So Paul can pray for "all power" to be given to the Colossians, and Scripture can say that we share in God's divine power, and Stephen can be referred to as "full of" power, but if Catholics refer that "all power" has been given to Mary, somehow that places Mary as equal to God's omnipotence.

Do you see how silly these accusations can sound when they are placed in the context of Scripture and legitimate Catholic teaching?

Click to expand...

No one I know claims all power has been given them or to anyone else.

The prayer claims the opposite. All power has been given to Mary is the claim.

And Col 1:11
in all might being made mighty according to the power of His glory, to all endurance and long-suffering with joy.

That might help. It's a request for power, not a claim of possessing all power that belongs solely to His glory.

I think it's the best honour a woman can be given to be the mother of the Son of God. I mean that's just huge. You're giving birth to the creator of the Cosmos. It's also a fulfillment of the scripture written several centuries ago.

Bible prophecy: Isaiah 7:14
Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: About 5 BC

In Isaiah 7:14, the prophet Isaiah addresses the "house of David," meaning the family and descendants of King David, and speaks of a virgin being pregnant with a child, and giving birth to the child. Isaiah says this in the context of it being a sign from God. He also says that the child would be referred to as "Immanuel," which means, "God with us."

The New Testament books of Matthew and Luke record details involving the birth of Jesus, who was born about 700 years after the time of Isaiah, saying that he was born of the virgin Mary and is the Son of God. Because he is the Son of God, Jesus literally can be referred to as "God with us."

Non-Christian scholars have challenged this interpretation. They say that the Hebrew word "almah," which is the word that Christian Bibles often translate as "virgin," actually means "young maiden" or "young woman." It should be noted that the Old Testament uses the word to refer to young, unmarried women, and that unmarried women were culturally and religiously expected to be virgins. One example can be found in Genesis 24:43, where it speaks of a person being sought as a bride for Isaac. - Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and 100Prophecies.org

Isaiah 7:14:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Click to expand...

KimberlyAA said:

I think it's the best honour a woman can be given to be the mother of the Son of God. I mean that's just huge. You're giving birth to the creator of the Cosmos. It's also a fulfillment of the scripture written several centuries ago.

Click to expand...

That would seem quite reasonable to me. How people can so easily dismiss that as being "no big deal" and "Mary has received nothing different from me" just blows my mind.

Standing Up said:

Originally Posted by SolomonVII

First, where is the prayer that says Mary is "omnipotent" please?
​

First line.

Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and earth
​

​

No one I know claims all power has been given them or to anyone else.

The prayer claims the opposite. All power has been given to Mary is the claim.

And Col 1:11
in all might being made mighty according to the power of His glory, to all endurance and long-suffering with joy.

That might help. It's a request for power, not a claim of possessing all power that belongs solely to His glory.

Click to expand...

Really easy for you to find a way around the Scripture and how "all power" being requested for the Colossians has to mean something completely different than what the author of this prayer means by "all power" being given to Mary.

Be careful -- people, and Scripture use the term "all" in many ways. For example, Paul says in 1 Tim 6:1 that slaves should regard their masters as being worthy of "all honor". Of course, you would never interpret that to mean that they are worthy of honor instead of God, or even equal to God. That would not align with your desired end result. However, if a Catholic had a prayer that referenced Mary as being worthy of "all honor" -- let the picking apart, accusations, and "told-you-so" begin.

Have you ever noticed that people never turn to the official prayers of the Catholic church (like the Mass) to 'prove' how Catholics worship Mary in prayer? After all, it's the core, central, worship rite in our faith and controlled, written, and translated by the church itself. One would think it would be just 'dripping' with references to Mary and how she's worshipped. But it's never used -- why is that? What do people turn to prayers written by individuals instead of the church?

I have no clue who authored this prayer, how old it is, what original language it was written in, or whether it was translated correctly. All I know it is not an official prayer written and translated by the church. I am certainly willing to give the benefit of the doubt to whoever wrote it and whoever might choose to say it -- that their intent is not to equate Mary to God, but rather to acknowledge the special gifts she has received being chosen to bear God in her womb. After all, that would be consistent with Catholic church teaching.

You (and others) on the other hand, want to take such a prayer, rip it out of every context that the Catholic church actually teaches about Mary, be judge, jury, and executioner on all Catholics as 'proof' of what is ultimately, your desired end result. One should never start with the 'end' and then look for proof -- you have to ignore a lot of contradictory evidence along the way and only serves ultimately to make one seem quite desperate.