What About MY Freedom of Choice?

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IzzyPop

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Not remotely! We're not talking about some minor annoyance of a person eating your food, we're talking about a human LIFE! There is a HUGE difference between sending someone away, and KILLING them! Wow, the fact that I have to point that out is disturbing...

May God Richly Bless You! MM
Minor annoyance? They are stealing my labor and resources. And guess what a fetus does? Steals labor and resources. If the mother does not want to provide them, she is not obligated to. Just as I am not obligated to continue to let someone stay in my house if I don't want them to. Even in a hurricane, I have the legal right to throw them out and cannot be held criminally responsible for what happens after that.
 
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selfinflikted said:
How many times do I have to keep repeating that the fact that a fetus is alive (i.e. life) is not a matter of contention.

What doesn't make sense, however, is if god takes the time to "knit us together" in the womb, then why does he then turn right around and allow more than half (I think the number is, if not the number is huge, regardless) of fertilized eggs to spontaneously abort through natural means?

As I told two other posters here now, that is because of our fall in the garden of Eden. Since that time, death has reigned, and unfortunately sometimes those deaths are the unborn. And as I posted before, more babies are aborted than die because of natural causes. Does it make sense to kill more because some die?

Yet, he felt it necessary to point out how and when not to cut your hair, what kind of fabrics we can and cannot wear, etc etc. 'Scuse me if I'm not buying it.

What you're talking about is from the old testament, and has more to do with maintaining God's law because there was no permanent form of forgiveness. Jesus's sacrifice on the cross ended these kinds of outward shows of faith. He does however give us a new covenant and shows us how we're to live our lives.

May God Richly Bless You! MM
 
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IzzyPop said:
Minor annoyance? They are stealing my labor and resources. And guess what a fetus does? Steals labor and resources. If the mother does not want to provide them, she is not obligated to. Just as I am not obligated to continue to let someone stay in my house if I don't want them to. Even in a hurricane, I have the legal right to throw them out and cannot be held criminally responsible for what happens after that.

This fallacy doesn't even deserve a response, but I'll humor you. Please see the point that one is KILLING the human, and the other is not putting up with THEFT!

May God Richly Bless You! MM
 
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IzzyPop

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This fallacy doesn't even deserve a response, but I'll humor you. Please see the point that one is KILLING the human, and the other is not putting up with THEFT!

May God Richly Bless You! MM
No. Both are theft and both are potentially killing a human.
 
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Dave Ellis

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This fallacy doesn't even deserve a response, but I'll humor you. Please see the point that one is KILLING the human, and the other is not putting up with THEFT!

May God Richly Bless You! MM


Again, what should be the punishment for a woman who gets an abortion?
 
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selfinflikted

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In the interest of "no walls of text" I'll try to make my replies more concise.

Ok, so why is it ok to take that life? If you believe it is alive, why is it ok to kill it?

This makes it sound like I don't care about the life of a fetus, because it's "ok" if it dies. That's not necessarily true. I just believe that a woman's right to her own body supercedes the right of the fetus to use it for life support (I'm not trying to degrade the fetus by the terms I'm using, that is just how I see it). Would I encourage a woman to carry a pregnancy to term if the whole shebang is on the up-and-up? Yes. Would I respect her decision to terminate the pregnancy if she so chose? Yes. It is her body. It is her choice. Period, new paragraph.

No. The love and teachings of Christ helped me to see this. Before I became a Christian, I was at best agnostic, and very cynical. Much like it appears you are.( I may be wrong, so please let me know if I am)

I am cynical while on this site, sure. The general atmosphere here brings me down. :p In general, though, I am not.

I also don't think anyone should be compelled to save a life in the bone marrow scenario, but humanity should always err on the side of life.

Agreed. :thumbsup:

First, if you're insinuating I'm also another poster, sorry.

No, sorry about that. I was merely commenting on the fact that this label is nearly always pushed on pro-choicers, when it is mostly wrong.

Secondly, please show me the difference. If you saw someone about to commit suicide, would call the police, or try to stop them? If not then you would be condoning their suicide. It's this extreme apathy that those who are "pro-choice" are trying to desperately to defend. This is a cut and dry issue. Either you are ok with the practice of abortion, or you are not. There is no middle ground...

Firstly, I would definitely call the authorities and try to stop a person from killing themselves. Secondly, the issue is not either/or as you've laid it out. I personally find the idea of abortion rather repulsive, but I also realize that my ideas are not universal, nor should they be. I realize as well, that my beliefs and lack thereof are nor universal, nor should they be. I am responsible for me and my own actions, not my neighbor's. And if my neighbor decides that she doesn't want a fetus growing inside her and wants to abort her pregnancy, well, that is her choice. And it should be hers, and NOT the government's.

On this you and I totally agree.

:thumbsup:

Ah, but you are your parents child, and according to your own definition, have been since conception.

No, I'm not my parent's child. I'm their son. I stopped being a child when I became an adult. :p But this is all semantics, and not at all relevant, so if you wish to persist on this, I will conceed just for the sake of expediency.

Not a concession, but if you'd pay attention, you'd see the numerous times I've shown you...

But you haven't. And you won't even point me in the direction of the post in which you claim to have done this. :confused:

Now, let's break this down to the main difference we have, because I honestly don't have time to respond to these walls of text. I believe that abortion should only be an option when the life of the mother is directly placed in immediate jeopardy. You believe that abortion should be fine for a woman's "bodily integrity". Is this the integrity you're talking about?

Abortion Risks: A list of major psychological complications related to abortion « After Abortion

Abortion After Effects

May God Richly Bless You! MM

Most of the time when a person makes a decision, they run the risk of regretting their choice. No one is immune to this, and it doesn't only apply to women who have abortions. What of the women who have abortions and never give it a second thought? Not every woman, not even a majority, have issues after they have an abortion.

(ETA: It is also not unreasonable to believe that some cases, if not many, of women regretting their decision to have an abortion is a direct result of people like you telling them that it is a sin, they're murderers, etc etc. Same thing with the gay community - they're not killing themselves because it's wrong to be gay, they're killing themselves because other people make their lives hell because of it. Same thing here, with abortion)

I just bought a brand new car. In some ways, I regret the purchase. Should people not buy new cars because they might feel bad about it afterwards?

(And in case you're wondering, it's a metallic red 2012 Ford Mustang, V6. I should've gotten the upgrade to the "performance package." heh)
 
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IzzyPop said:
No. Both are theft and both are potentially killing a human.

<sigh> not even close. A baby is not a conscience thief. Your friend in this regard is. You invited them in, but can ask them to leave without DEATH! Abortion cannot be completed without DEATH! Are you seeing the overriding fallacy of your argument yet?

May God Richly Bless You! MM
 
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selfinflikted

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Isn't that sort of protest illegal as potentially endangering someone?

Not where I live, it isn't. I often drive past the local PP here, and 9 times out of 10, there are protesters with signs out front, just like in that pic.
 
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selfinflikted said:
In the interest of "no walls of text" I'll try to make my replies more concise.

This makes it sound like I don't care about the life of a fetus, because it's "ok" if it dies. That's not necessarily true. I just believe that a woman's right to her own body supercedes the right of the fetus to use it for life support (I'm not trying to degrade the fetus by the terms I'm using, that is just how I see it). Would I encourage a woman to carry a pregnancy to term if the whole shebang is on the up-and-up? Yes. Would I respect her decision to terminate the pregnancy if she so chose? Yes. It is her body. It is her choice. Period, new paragraph.

I am cynical while on this site, sure. The general atmosphere here brings me down. :p In general, though, I am not.

Agreed. :thumbsup:

I can't reply directly to the rest of your post, but my overriding belief is simple. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If you believe a "fetus" is living, why is it ok to kill it? Why can a woman kill that "fetus" but if a person causes her to miscarriage, they can be charged with murder. Do you see the logical problem? Oh and you're right, you should've gotten the V8 and the performance package! ;)

May God Richly Bless You! MM
 
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SharonL

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Again, what should be the punishment for a woman who gets an abortion?

That is God's choice - not ours. The fact that she will regret this the rest of her life and never really come to terms with it will not give her an enjoyable life. I have spoken to several people who had abortions and not one of them was happy about it throughout their lifetime.

I have a friend who had an abortion - she is up in age now - needs help and has no one to help her - wonder if when she prays God why won't you send me some help - what if his answer might be - I sent you help and you killed it. Something to think about.
 
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Trogool

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That is God's choice - not ours.

If that were true, abortion wouldn't be physically possible.

The fact that she will regret this the rest of her life and never really come to terms with it will not give her an enjoyable life.

That's simply not true, according to all scientific research. :)

I have spoken to several people who had abortions and not one of them was happy about it throughout their lifetime.

Personal anecdote with a small sample doesn't prove anything.


I have a friend who had an abortion - she is up in age now - needs help and has no one to help her - wonder if when she prays God why won't you send me some help - what if his answer might be - I sent you help and you killed it. Something to think about.

1. Children aren't "help". What a callous and utilitarian view of offspring.
2. Maybe her family or friends could help. Why aren't you helping, Sharon?

3. Answer the question, Sharon.

Explain how you'd handle this as an OB/GYN.

Successful Sonographically Guided Laser Ablation of a Large Acardiac Twin at 26 Weeksâ&#8364;&#8482; Gestation

A 26-year-old primigravida was referred to our tertiary referral center at 26 weeks&#8217; gestation because of a twin pregnancy complicated with a rapidly growing acardiac twin and polyhydramnios. The diagnosis of a monochorionic-diamniotic twin pregnancy was established at 12 weeks&#8217; gestation, at which time a fetus with no abnormalities, a crown-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] length of 66 mm, and nuchal translucency of 1.7 mm was seen in 1 sac, and a 44-mm edematous, acardiac, acephalic fetus with gross abnormalities was seen in the other sac. Color Doppler sonography confirmed the reversed arterial perfusion sequence. Follow-up sonograms at 17 and 22 weeks&#8217; gestation revealed continuous growth of the acardiac twin but no congenital anomalies, cardiac impairment, or polyhydramnios in the pump twin. At 25 weeks, however, the patient had rapid increase in uterine height, mild uterine contractions, and positional discomfort. At referral, sonography confirmed cardiomegaly and polyhydramnios in the pump twin. The acardiac twin was much larger than the pump twin because of the presence of massive subcutaneous edema and large cystic hygromas (Figure 1&#8659;). Cervical assessment revealed a short cervix with funneling.
 
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SharonL

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I told you already, I am not talking about death of mother or baby through no fault of her own. I'm talking about getting rid of a baby for the sake of getting rid of an inconvenience.

For what it is worth - I do help my friend and have for the past 10 years.
 
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selfinflikted

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I can't reply directly to the rest of your post, but my overriding belief is simple. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If you believe a "fetus" is living, why is it ok to kill it? Why can a woman kill that "fetus" but if a person causes her to miscarriage, they can be charged with murder. Do you see the logical problem? Oh and you're right, you should've gotten the V8 and the performance package! ;)

May God Richly Bless You! MM

It would be really easy for me to make a snap judgement since I am a man and will never have to personally deal with having something growing inside me, causing pain, sickness, possible bedrest.. the list of things that can complicate a pregnancy (and a life) is huge. But, what I am trying to do in this situation is empathize with a woman who might be pregnant and doesn't want to be. That's as plain as I can put it. Chances are, we won't reach a mutual agreement on this topic, but perhaps you can at least see and understand my position, and the position of those who feel the same way as I do.

As far as the Mustang, there's no way in hell I could afford the gas in the V8 because it's a daily driver (20 miles to and from work each day). The V6 isn't the part I regret (it's got 305 hp for crying out loud. The thing will zooooom), it's just that with the performance package thing, you get the nicer stereo system and USB port. As it stands, the stereo is nice (and I have two competition kicker 12's in my trunk), but I have to deal with the slight sound quality degredation due to a standard audio cable input from my iPhone into the head unit of the car, instead of the bliss of the pristine quality of a USB connection. But, such is life I suppose. :p
 
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Trogool

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selfinflikted said:
It would be really easy for me to make a snap judgement since I am a man and will never have to personally deal with having something growing inside me, causing pain, sickness, possible bedrest.. the list of things that can complicate a pregnancy (and a life) is huge. But, what I am trying to do in this situation is empathize with a woman who might be pregnant and doesn't want to be. That's as plain as I can put it. Chances are, we won't reach a mutual agreement on this topic, but perhaps you can at least see and understand my position, and the position of those who feel the same way as I do.

I can certainly understand where you're coming from, and believe me I empathize with a woman in an impossible situation. The problem is, the vast bulk of the abortions are not that impossible situation, but simply used as a form of birth control. So I guess between the two of us we empathize with both sides...interesting...I guess my point is that an abortion has a 100% death rate for the baby, while not even remotely so for the mother...

selfinflikted said:
As far as the Mustang, there's no way in hell I could afford the gas in the V8 because it's a daily driver (20 miles to and from work each day). The V6 isn't the part I regret, it's just that with the performance package thing, you get the nicer stereo system and USB port. As it stands, the stereo is nice (and I have two competition kicker 12's in my trunk), but I have to deal with the slight sound quality degredation due to a standard audio cable input from my iPhone into the head unit of the car, instead of the bliss of the pristine quality of a USB connection. But, such is life I suppose. :p

First world problems...rotfl! Yeah, I have a 2000 jeep Cherokee, and even with its V6 the 30+ mile drive to both jobs is killing me! (But boy the 4 wheel drive is handy when the snow flies!) 8^D

May God Richly Bless You! MM
 
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IzzyPop

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<sigh> not even close. A baby is not a conscience thief. Your friend in this regard is. You invited them in, but can ask them to leave without DEATH! Abortion cannot be completed without DEATH! Are you seeing the overriding fallacy of your argument yet?

May God Richly Bless You! MM
Nope. Same principle applies. And the death of a small clump of cells is incidental at that stage. We are not talking about a viable fetus here, but rather something smaller than the nail of my pinkie toe. It is alive in only the most technical of definitions.
 
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selfinflikted

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I can certainly understand where you're coming from, and believe me I empathize with a woman in an impossible situation. The problem is, the vast bulk of the abortions are not that impossible situation, but simply used as a form of birth control. So I guess between the two of us we empathize with both sides...interesting...I guess my point is that an abortion has a 100% death rate for the baby, while not even remotely so for the mother...

True, but I'm hopeful one day medical science will find a way to abort the pregnancy without killing the fetus. In the meantime, while I don't agree with "abortion as birth control" necessarily, I support the right of the individual woman to choose for herself. As I said before, I can't in good conscience try to impose what I believe on any other human being because I know just how it feels to be on the crap end of the stick when it comes to having others imposing their beliefs on me. I can't even get married to the person I love in the state where I live because of all the religious opposition.



First world problems...rotfl! Yeah, I have a 2000 jeep Cherokee, and even with its V6 the 30+ mile drive to both jobs is killing me! (But boy the 4 wheel drive is handy when the snow flies!) 8^D

May God Richly Bless You! MM

First world problems, indeed.
 
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IzzyPop said:
Nope. Same principle applies. And the death of a small clump of cells is incidental at that stage. We are not talking about a viable fetus here, but rather something smaller than the nail of my pinkie toe. It is alive in only the most technical of definitions.

Really? A clump of cells? Are you really that ignorant of fetal development? Here's that "clump of cells" at only 3 weeks gestation:



View attachment 127584

Now considering most abortions occur between 9-10 weeks gestation:

View attachment 127585

Where is that clump of cells again?

May God Richly Bless You! MM
 
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CaliforniaSun

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How is that bigotry? Is it not what happens in an abortion clinic? Are not "fetuses" killed? I feel deeply for those women who are placed in an impossible situation, but it is still accurate to say they are killing the "fetus"...

May God Richly Bless You! MM
Hypocrisy then? Take your pick.

If that old curmudgeon sitting on his bum honestly believed a murder was taking place across the street, he would do something to stop it. Until then, he's just bullying and badgering women who might be emotionally struggling as it is, and this creep is not showing compassion, just bigoted judgement. What was it Ghandi said?, 'I like Christ, it's your Christians I do not.'
 
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