3 equal 1?

Originally posted by lared
Blade,
You are right. Jesus was and is an angel. In fact he is the archangel.
Jehovah's first creative act was to produce a spirit son or angel. That happened to be Jesus. 

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Wow. I'd love to see your Scriptures supporting these thoughts, please...I've never heard that theory before...

 I have heard that before I have no scriptures but the Jehovah witness believe him to be Michael the Arc angel.

 Many beliefs of the Jehovah witnesses matched up with the bible also.

 They were right in some things anyway.    Evee

Cammie,
Here is an excerpt from Reasoning From The Scriptures published by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

Is Jesus Christ the same person as Michael the archangel?

The name of this Michael appears only five times in the Bible. The glorious spirit person who bears the name is referred to as "one of the chief princes," "the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel's] people," and as "the archangel." (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) Michael means "Who Is Like God?" The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah's sovereignty and destroying God's enemies.

At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as "the archangel's call," and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus' commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. (Interestingly, the expression "archangel" is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one.)

Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as "ruler of this world," Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the 'standing up of Michael' to act with authority with "a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time." That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.

Sincerely,
Lared

How did the Jewish community interpet these OT scriputures before Christ was born?

Originally posted by taps
How did the Jewish community interpet these OT scriputures before Christ was born?

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I don't understand the question.

So how is it that Jesus is One with His Father? The Jews all took that to mean (and I am supposing they knew the Hebrew language implications better than I do) that He was saying that He WAS God...

The Jewish people knew these scriptures were prophesying a savior or prophet. However they expected salvation from the Romans, not for their sins. Christ did fulfil all the propheys about himself but the Jews who were looking, were looking for a military leader like the Judges.

Reading the scripture is very important but what's interesting and gives insight into the meaning of some difficult verses are the reactions of the people and how these scriptures were interpeted by the Jewish people.

Paulewog,

John 10:30:

When saying, "I and the Father are one," did Jesus mean that they were equal? Some Trinitarians say that he did. But at John 17:21, 22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: "That they may all be one," and he added, "that they may be one even as we are one." He used the same Greek word (hen) for "one" in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus' disciples do not all become part of the Trinity. But they do come to share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.

Sincerely, Lared

Can 3 equal 1? To tell the truth I reallly don't know exactly how that can be physically possible but I can't ignore scripture.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."

John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


John 8:56-59
Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
"You are not fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, thy picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: "I AM has sent me to you.'"


John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

John 14:11
"Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."
John 10:33
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."


Jesus knew the scripture and the law just as well as any rabbi, he was familiar with the commandment, (Ex. 20:3) You shall have no other gods before me. Why would Jesus allow people to worship him when God said worship no one but me? Unless....Jesus was God himself!   



 

Then why did the Pharisees want to kill Him if He wasn't really claiming to be equal with God?

Furthermore, Paul tells us that He didn't hink it "robbery" (literally "a thing to be grasped) to be equal with God.

All over we have evidence of God's deity, being equal with God, being God.

And I'm with taps - physically possible in our minds? heh, no way. But since when do we have to understand everything to make it true? hehe

Originally posted by lared
Cammie,
Here is an excerpt from Reasoning From The Scriptures published by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

Is Jesus Christ the same person as Michael the archangel?

The name of this Michael appears only five times in the Bible. The glorious spirit person who bears the name is referred to as "one of the chief princes," "the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel's] people," and as "the archangel." (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) Michael means "Who Is Like God?" The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah's sovereignty and destroying God's enemies.

At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as "the archangel's call," and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus' commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. (Interestingly, the expression "archangel" is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one.)

Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as "ruler of this world," Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the 'standing up of Michael' to act with authority with "a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time." That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.

Sincerely,
Lared

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Um...wow...I've never seen such a twisting of Scripture before, but thank you for sharing your beliefs...

If we consider trying to understand the philosophy of "1=3" (in faith) as a forbidden act due to the sense that faith cannot be measured with our intellects, then all other religions could bring the exact same argument for their believes!.
Even cow worshippers could say: "hey don't try to convince me that this is no God, cause i gotta believe in it even if it contradicts with my values!!"

God has bestowed upon mankind the intellect to compare between right and wrong, false and truth.

We believe in the truthfull prophets (Jesus, Moses, Mohammad, Abraham..) because they brought evidence in accordance to what they tought, and what they tought had no contrarieties with our intellects.

so, the great prophet Jesus was not, and can never be, God, except if we leave our intellects behind.

Outspoken said:

Yup, who says it is something you can explain. The scripture says The father is God, christ is God and the holy spirit is God, it also says God is one, our only conclusion is that trinity exsists. I try to make sence of it by looking at ice, steam, water and vapor are all H2O but steam is not water, nor is it ice..

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can the a single molecule of water(H20) be vapor, ice, and liquid at the SAME TIME?
if not than this analogy is very weak.

Also, when did the idea of trinity develop? was it during Jesus(pbuh) time or did it come about a few centuries after him?

millenialeden said:

I believe Jesus existed and was a good man, but that is as far as it goes for me.

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First of all, thank you for your honesty.

Im glad you believe he existed, because he did. I'm glad you believe he was a good man, because he was. But, now here is where it gets good, what was good about him? what makes you deduce that he was good? That you dont want to believe this or that, or that you think this or that is a freedom given to you by God. now, if you are serious, begin un baised and honestly and ask questions.

you believe he existed and that he was good. OK. why was the reason the jewish leaders wanted him dead? He supposedly 'blasphemed.' He called himself God. If he is good and doesnt lie, then he is who he claims to be.

keep your questions isolated (for now) and ordered. Before asking about the things of his life you need to know exactly who he is.

example on something else you touched:

God is one therefore I dont believe in a Trinity? (paraphrasing of course but true to what ur words were)

No one who believes in the Trinity believes in 3 Gods. No, we believe in one God. Three Divine Persons in One Divine Nature. consider a Family. Father, Mother and Child. Three distinct persons but One family.

ill be back later, sorry for leaving early. PM me if youd like.

Cephas

No one who believes in the Trinity believes in 3 Gods. No, we believe in one God. Three Divine Persons in One Divine Nature. consider a Family. Father, Mother and Child. Three distinct persons but One family.

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Again, not 3 but 1 (= 3 Divine person).. Why are you confusing your self. Just say ONE = 1 . No Son, no Holy Spirit, no mother, no daughter.... no associate.

a muslim said:

If we consider trying to understand the philosophy of "1=3" (in faith) as a forbidden act due to the sense that faith cannot be measured with our intellects, then all other religions could bring the exact same argument for their believes!.
Even cow worshippers could say: "hey don't try to convince me that this is no God, cause i gotta believe in it even if it contradicts with my values!!"

God has bestowed upon mankind the intellect to compare between right and wrong, false and truth.

We believe in the truthfull prophets (Jesus, Moses, Mohammad, Abraham..) because they brought evidence in accordance to what they tought, and what they tought had no contrarieties with our intellects.

so, the great prophet Jesus was not, and can never be, God, except if we leave our intellects behind.

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True Christians know that to know God is a contradiction of intellect. The spiritual laws of God work opposite of the thoughts of the world system which drives off of relativism. Man's intellect is governed by his circumstancess and enviroment mainly, whereas God's is not. So, truth of God trumps our relativistic view of things. That is why we do not lean upon our own understanding of things, but derive our understanding from God through the Holy Spirit.

The Bible teaches us that we can not truly know what is right or wrong just by intellect. We have to have God, Himself, show us, because we have no true spiritual vision other than that which God imputes to us through His spirit. When we sloely depend upon our intellect, we are depending upon the ways of man and are making judgements based upon our conditions. That is why values and morals change with time. What we use to say was forbidden has now become acceptable and vice versa.

ServantofTheOne said:

can the a single molecule of water(H20) be vapor, ice, and liquid at the SAME TIME?
if not than this analogy is very weak.

Also, when did the idea of trinity develop? was it during Jesus(pbuh) time or did it come about a few centuries after him?

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It is kinda silly to reject something just because you can not understand it. We encounter many things each day of our lives that we do not understand, yet we trust. Why is that different with God?

We encounter many things each day of our lives that we do not understand, yet we trust.

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True but, I dont believe G-D killed him self and G-D duplicate/manifest himself into ungodly form (into mortal being).

Blackhawk said:

John said He as God in the 1st Chapter of his gospel and in many other places in that same gospel also.  Also the HS is said to be God in John's gospel also.  The gospel of John probably is the best book of the Bible to look in for a defense of the divinity of the HS and Jesus Christ.   

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This Is John saying> Dare Any christian to show me where JESUS himself is saying i am god wiorship me.I can show you vesres where he is saying don't worship him
Peace

IslandBreeze said:

Wow. I'd love to see your Scriptures supporting these thoughts, please...I've never heard that theory before...

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If you say Jesus is part of the trinity then you have to admit he was an angel
who was the Holy spirit
AN angel
Peace