Elder

Mr Dave · Jul 25, 2012

It came up in conversation with someone the other day, and I realised that as a non-baptist I wasn't exactly sure of the answer. Within baptist congregations (particularly those associated with the Baptist Union of Great Britain, if there are geographical differences, I don't know), what is the function of an elder. Who are they/how they appointed? What do they do?...

Within Methodism we have stewards, which are vaguely similar (As far as I'm aware), but I'm not sure how similar the tow are.

Thanks

IisJustMe · Jul 25, 2012

Mr Dave said:
It came up in conversation with someone the other day, and I realised that as a non-baptist I wasn't exactly sure of the answer. Within baptist congregations (particularly those associated with the Baptist Union of Great Britain, if there are geographical differences, I don't know), what is the function of an elder. Who are they/how they appointed? What do they do?...

Within Methodism we have stewards, which are vaguely similar (As far as I'm aware), but I'm not sure how similar the tow are.

Thanks

I'm assuming elders there serve the same purpose as deacons here. They are nominated by other deacons and the deacon board (which is the administrative and spiritual body leading the church) votes to accept them. They then participate in church board meetings, manage the budget of the church (some churches have administrative pastors who take direction from the board and offer it sound advice on how to do so effectively) and handle the functions of the church as an extension of the pastors, such as visiting the sick, evangelizing, handling charitable activities and doing the visible things such as ushering, taking up the offering and helping with responses to the altar call.

Mr Dave · Jul 25, 2012

Ah ok, that might be it. As far as I'm aware, deacons exist in the BUGB separately to elders, but my Baptist knowledge is limited (this whole local autonomy thing makes pinning down details a tad less easy

)

twin1954 · Jul 27, 2012

Biblically Elder, Bishop and Pastor are three names given to the leader/s of the local church. Each has a different aspect of service. An Elder is one who by mature understanding and experience can be looked to as an example of a faithful man. A Bishop is a ruler in the body and a Pastor is one who leads, feeds and protects the sheep. In Baptist thought they are usually one man called the Pastor.

Deacons are not rulers or administrators in the Church. At least they are not supposed to be. Their office and service is to see to the physical needs of the sheep and take care of those physical things that are required. They are under and subject to the Pastor.

Sadly in most Baptist churches today the positions have been reversed. The deacons rule and hire and fire the pastor. The pastor is subject to the rule of the deacon board rather than subject to the rule of Christ.

DeaconDean · Jul 27, 2012

twin1954 said:
Biblically Elder, Bishop and Pastor are three names given to the leader/s of the local church. Each has a different aspect of service. An Elder is one who by mature understanding and experience can be looked to as an example of a faithful man. A Bishop is a ruler in the body and a Pastor is one who leads, feeds and protects the sheep. In Baptist thought they are usually one man called the Pastor.

Deacons are not rulers or administrators in the Church. At least they are not supposed to be. Their office and service is to see to the physical needs of the sheep and take care of those physical things that are required. They are under and subject to the Pastor.

Sadly in most Baptist churches today the positions have been reversed. The deacons rule and hire and fire the pastor. The pastor is subject to the rule of the deacon board rather than subject to the rule of Christ.

I was waiting to see what your reply would be.

And I agree.

Deacons are not rulers or administrators in the Church. At least they are not supposed to be. Their office and service is to see to the physical needs of the sheep and take care of those physical things that are required. They are under and subject to the Pastor.

As a former deacon. Although I am recognized as an elder in my church.

And from my limited knowledge, I believe the Presbyterains use the "office" of "elder" as best described by the scriptures.

My Grand-Father was a "Ruling Elder" at Glenwood Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church until the day of his passing.

God Bless and rest eternally John Franklin Sanders Sr.

HantsUK · Jul 29, 2012

In BUGB - Baptist Union of Great Britain (actually just England and Wales) and the URC, each member church is locally governed, but also, this is congregational government. Specifically, the Church Members Meeting appoints or removes a minister, appoints Officers (Secretary and Treasurer) and appoints deacons (and elders). The diaconate does not appoint themselves or the minister. They are accountable to the members.

This is why Baptist churches have formal membership. Their members have legal responsibilities.

From various comments I've seen on the forum, this seems to be different from the USA, eg the response from IisJustMe.

The deacons both serve and lead the church. Some Baptist churches have elders as well as deacons, with deacons responsible for 'practical' matters and elders taking a more 'spiritual' role. The first deacons were appointed to sort out some practical problems in the early church, so that the apostles could devote their time to preaching and prayer. See Acts 6. But, take a closer look at Stephen, one of these deacons. He also preached, debated and performed miracles, before being murdered. Was he a deacon? or more like an elder?

Under UK (England and Wales) law, the diaconate are Charity Trusties and are legally accountable for the church. So, for example, if a church got into financial difficulties, the deacons are personally liable (which is why some churches and charities are limited companies).

JM · Jul 29, 2012

twin1954 said:
Biblically Elder, Bishop and Pastor are three names given to the leader/s of the local church. Each has a different aspect of service. An Elder is one who by mature understanding and experience can be looked to as an example of a faithful man. A Bishop is a ruler in the body and a Pastor is one who leads, feeds and protects the sheep. In Baptist thought they are usually one man called the Pastor.

The only thing I would add...all Elders must be pipe smokers

and know the difference between an ale and a lager.

SwordoftheLord · Jul 29, 2012

IisJustMe said:
I'm assuming elders there serve the same purpose as deacons here. They are nominated by other deacons and the deacon board (which is the administrative and spiritual body leading the church) votes to accept them. They then participate in church board meetings, manage the budget of the church (some churches have administrative pastors who take direction from the board and offer it sound advice on how to do so effectively) and handle the functions of the church as an extension of the pastors, such as visiting the sick, evangelizing, handling charitable activities and doing the visible things such as ushering, taking up the offering and helping with responses to the altar call.

You Deacons are doing things that are for Elders, not Deacons... Seems like they are combining them both as Deacons..

SwordoftheLord · Jul 29, 2012

Deacons are supposed to serve the Church, Elders Lead the church.....

When you compare the qualifications in 1st Timothy 3 (elders/overseers, vv. 1-7; deacons, vv. 8-13), there doesnt seem to be much difference. This, quite simply, is because the qualifications speak more to the issue of character than they do of role. To be an elder or to be a deacon you must be a man
To understand the difference in role, we would do better to look at what the actual titles are meant to convey. First, elders are overseers. Paul makes this clear in Acts 20 when he gathers together the elders of the church of Ephesus (v. 17) and says to them that the Holy Spirit has made them overseers to shepherd the church of God (v. 28). Elders, then, are supposed to provide the kind of oversight that a shepherd provides for his flock. They are to lovingly lead and direct the congregation in terms of both doctrine and a vision for the ministry; they are to come alongside and encourage or rebuke where necessary to get individual sheep back on course. This is why we call our elders pastors. The title pastor has the same root as the English word pastoral which, according to Funk & Wagnalls Standard Desk Dictionary, is used of things pertaining to shepherds, rustics, or rural life.

Deacons, on the other hand, are called to deac. I find it interesting that the English translators didnt even try to translate the original Greek word, diakonos (dee-a-con-os), in 1st Timothy 3 They managed to do a great job in Matthew 22:13 (servants), Colossians 4:7(servant), and Romans 15:8(servant). A deacon is a servant; he or she is one who has been called to serve. Practically speaking, this means putting hands to the work of the ministry. This is why we have deacons serving in the sound booth or deacons organizing co-ed breakfasts. Their primary role is one of service.

To summarize, then, elders are primarily responsible for the spiritual oversight of the church whereas deacons are primarily responsible for attending to the physical matters of the church (service).

I know many Baptist churches that have it wrong, but boy dont tell them that, they seem to get mad about it LOL!

Mr Dave · Jul 30, 2012

Thanks for the responses. It makes more sense now.

Alexanda20 · Jul 30, 2012

Ah ok, that might be it. As far as I'm aware, deacons exist in the BUGB separately to elders, but my Baptist knowledge is limited (this whole local autonomy thing makes pinning down details a tad less easy )

IisJustMe · Jul 30, 2012

SwordoftheLord said:
I know many Baptist churches that have it wrong, but boy dont tell them that, they seem to get mad about it LOL!

Not mad. Just disappointed that people don't see we combine the offices and call them deacons, while using the fact to make a pointless jab. "Elder" (presbuyteros) means one who is advanced in years and who presumably has wisdom. The term was used in the general epistles (Paul only used it once, in 1 Timothy 5:19) virtually interchangeably with bishop, one who administers the church affairs. That's what our deacons do, but they also serve, as I described earlier.

The first seven deacons appointed were Stephen, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas. What were they to do? Make certain the non-Jewish widows and orphans were not shorted in the distribution of food. Servants? Or administrators? Looks like both, to me.

SwordoftheLord · Jul 30, 2012

IisJustMe said:
Not mad. Just disappointed that people don't see we combine the offices and call them deacons, while using the fact to make a pointless jab. "Elder" (presbuyteros) means one who is advanced in years and who presumably has wisdom. The term was used in the general epistles (Paul only used it once, in 1 Timothy 5:19) virtually interchangeably with bishop, one who administers the church affairs. That's what our deacons do, but they also serve, as I described earlier.

The first seven deacons appointed were Stephen, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas. What were they to do? Make certain the non-Jewish widows and orphans were not shorted in the distribution of food. Servants? Or administrators? Looks like both, to me.

Because combining the Offices is not biblical, they are the way they are for a reason.....Yet a Deacons JOB is not to do the JOB of a Bishop or Elder.

IisJustMe · Jul 30, 2012

SwordoftheLord said:
Because combining the Offices is not biblical, they are the way they are for a reason.....Yet a Deacons JOB is not to do the JOB of a Bishop or Elder.

You say so. Works for us.

SwordoftheLord · Jul 31, 2012

IisJustMe said:
You say so. Works for us.

Nope Sir, the Bible says so, and your church is not following the Biblical Principles.....As many Baptist (Especially SBC) aren't

IisJustMe · Jul 31, 2012

SwordoftheLord said:
Nope Sir, the Bible says so, and your church is not following the Biblical Principles.....As many Baptist (Especially SBC) aren't

The New Testament does distinguish between the qualification between elders and deacons, though I think the difference pertains primarily to the areas of giftedness needed for elders to be able to carry out their roles or functions as shepherds. This difference is spelled out in 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1. Elders are to be apt to teach, which includes both the desire and ability to study and teach. Further, Titus shows they should be those who truly know and hold fast to sound doctrine and are able to communicate the Word (Tit. 1:9) in varying conditions. Hebrews 5:14, of course, is something all believers should be striving for, but certainly, this should be true in the life of those leading the church. Compare, for instance, Hebrews 13:7 and 17 and 1 Thess. 5:12f. These verses also suggest elders should be very mature in the Word and in their walk with the Savior. While we should seek this in deacons as well, it is a necessity for elders due to the nature of the role and function of elders as shepherds.

Our English word deacon comes from the Greek diakonos meaning “servant,” and specifically, “a table servant.” In the New Testament it has a general use in which it refers to all manner of ministries (the vast majority of occurrences), and a technical or official use. When used in the official sense of someone appointed as a “deacon,” the concept of a servant is united with that of an office. The term “deacon” thus refers to an office which involves the basic duty of rendering service to others. A deacon is one who is placed in an official position for a ministry of service to benefit others in the body of Christ. We should also bear in mind that Paul defined his apostolic ministry as a servant (diakonia, a word derived from diakonos) ministry (1 Tim. 1:12; Acts 20:24; 21:19; 2 Tim. 4:11). Compare the use of diakonos in Col. 1:7, 25; 4:7; 1 Tim. 4:6.

Personally, I think we're doing just fine, and God doesn't mind that we qualify them as elders, but call them deacons. Have a great life.

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