Lesson in Cladistics: Playing Cards

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
Come on Loudmouth. Show us all how it is done. Show us all it can be done.

Read the opening post. This thread is a challenge for creationists. It is up to YOU to show us how to organize cards based on differences. Come on Astrid. Show us all how it done.

Just demonstrate any part of any of your clades for us with your cards.

Show us how to organize cards by differences, or admit that organizing things by differences doesn't work. That is what this thread is asking for.
 
Upvote 0

Astridhere

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2011
1,240
43
I live in rural NSW, Australia
✟1,616.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Read the opening post. This thread is a challenge for creationists. It is up to YOU to show us how to organize cards based on differences. Come on Astrid. Show us all how it done.



Show us how to organize cards by differences, or admit that organizing things by differences doesn't work. That is what this thread is asking for.

Loudmouth regardless of this ridiculous idea I have done as you asked. You are simply going to keep moving the goal posts. It is about similarities as well as differences. Hopefully, you are not that disengaged with reality that you are hoping I can describe a creature that looks like a club or spade.



The Bird kind are a group because they all have a reversed hallux. That is their signature and you know it. All the clubs. They don't have a blow hole or a fur coat or gills, so they are not spades, diamonds or hearts.

The Whale kind are a group because they have a blow hole. All the spades. These don't have reversed hallux or gills and are not obligate bipeds so they are not clubs, hearts or diamonds.

The Fish kind are fish because, Fish are mostly ectothermic. They have gill slits which they use to breathe by drawing out oxygen from the water around them. All fish are vertebrates. Most are covered in scales while some can be covered in skin. They have fins and not digits. All the diamonds. These don't have superior intelligence or a blow hole or a reversed hallux, so they are not clubs, spades or hearts.

Mankind is a kind separate to other apes because they do not have a fur coat, are able to make meaning of the world with superior intelligence, abstract thought and sophisticated language, and are obligate bipeds. All the hearts. We don't have gills or a reversed hallux or a blow hole so we are not diamonds, clubs or spades.

There you go. I have used all the cards and separated them into groups and noted the differences. I have done it again. :bow:

What is it Loudmouth? Do you have some particular trap in mind and I am not playing your game? Is that the problem here?

I am telling you now that I have met your challenge. You will be peeved that I have done so. So let's see what hand wave and other ridiculous hoops you put up now. Struggler!

If you ignore my kinds again like you already have you will need to give a demo so we know what you are requesting, as silly as it is.

Now lets look at your synapomorphies again.

Recent morphological (A) and combined morphological + molecular (B) hypotheses of artiodactylan phylogeny
fetchObject.action


http://www.plosone.org/article/info...RI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0007062.g001


So here we see that DNA alone gives one result. DNA plus morphology gives another result. Then we must not forget that up until DNA testing the pig and hippo had the most similar morphology to each other, and so morphology alone also gives a different result.

So what sense can any one make of your silly synapomorphies? You evos have demonstrated many times that DNA CONTRADICTS morphology. Hence you are stuggling in the dark and these results have no credibility at all.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Astridhere

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2011
1,240
43
I live in rural NSW, Australia
✟1,616.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As an illustration of how cladistics works (or doesn't work in this case) I would like to challenge a creationist to put playing cards into categories based on the differences between the cards.

Any takers?

Re your last post..you intentionally left out the best bit ..."Birds are a group"......."that have a reversed hallux", as well as the rest of my post. Good one Loudmouth. Ignorance becomes some people. You actually hate the fact that I have done this so much so that you are prepared to misrepresent what I have written in plain view of everyone. Why? Don't you think anyone here can read?

Clubs represent a kind/group with a reversed hallux.

Spades represent a kind/group with a blow hole

Diamonds represent a kind/group with gills

Hearts represent a kind/group with an ability to make meaning out of the world and are furless obligate bipeds.

The Bird kind are a group because they all have a reversed hallux. That is their signature and you know it. All the clubs. They don't have a blow hole or a fur coat or gills, so they are not spades, diamonds or hearts.

The Whale kind are a group because they have a blow hole. All the spades. These don't have reversed hallux or gills and are not obligate bipeds so they are not clubs, hearts or diamonds.

The Fish kind are a group because Fish are mostly ectothermic. They have gill slits which they use to breathe by drawing out oxygen from the water around them. All fish are vertebrates. Most are covered in scales while some can be covered in skin. They have fins and not digits. All the diamonds. These don't have superior intelligence or a blow hole or a reversed hallux, so they are not clubs, spades or hearts.

Mankind is a kind separate to other apes because they do not have a fur coat, are able to make meaning of the world with superior intelligence, abstract thought and sophisticated language, and are obligate bipeds. All the hearts. We don't have gills or a reversed hallux or a blow hole so we are not diamonds, clubs or spades.

There you go. I have used all the cards and separated them into groups and noted the differences. I have done it again. :bow:



This is what Loudmouth is trying to copy in this pitiful example that he does not understand himself.

http://www.bioquest.org/summer2011/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/The-Great-Clade-Race1.pdf

As you can see from the link above the reason why Loudmouth cannot use a usual deck of cards to demonstrate his cladistics as a demo is mostly because he can't. He is therefore asking creationists to do something he is unable to do in his own example. More importantly if Loudmouth gave it a go he would not know which line of rubbish to align with.


Of course once we see that evolutionists actually have no idea what they are talking about as demonstrated in whale ancestry all their synapomorphies are useless because they get a different result based on dna alone, morphology alone and a different result if they combine.


I actually have met the criteria of your challenge as silly as it is. You simply need to suck it up or give us a demonstration of your ability! ^_^
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
Re your last post..you intentionally left out the best bit ..."Birds are a group".......

I left out the bit that had nothing to do with cards. Cards do not have a reversed hallux.

Clubs represent a kind/group with a reversed hallux.

Cards do not have a reversed hallux.

Spades represent a kind/group with a blow hole

Spades do not have a blow hole.

Diamonds represent a kind/group with gills

Diamonds do not have gills.

You still have not shown how to organize CARDS into separate groups based on differences that cards actually have. The challenge in the opening post remains.
 
Upvote 0

Astridhere

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2011
1,240
43
I live in rural NSW, Australia
✟1,616.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I left out the bit that had nothing to do with cards. Cards do not have a reversed hallux.



Cards do not have a reversed hallux.



Spades do not have a blow hole.



Diamonds do not have gills.

You still have not shown how to organize CARDS into separate groups based on differences that cards actually have. The challenge in the opening post remains.

Do you remember me sayng this?

"Loudmouth regardless of this ridiculous idea I have done as you asked. You are simply going to keep moving the goal posts. It is about similarities as well as differences. Hopefully, you are not that disengaged with reality that you are hoping I can describe a creature that looks like a club or spade." :doh:

My hopes are dashed, You are actually very disengaged with reality. :idea:

Clubs represent a kind/group with a reversed hallux.

Spades represent a kind/group with a blow hole

Diamonds represent a kind/group with gills

Hearts represent a kind/group with an ability to make meaning out of the world and are furless obligate bipeds.

The Bird kind are a group because they all have a reversed hallux. That is their signature and you know it. All the clubs. They don't have a blow hole or a fur coat or gills, so they are not spades, diamonds or hearts.

The Whale kind are a group because they have a blow hole. All the spades. These don't have reversed hallux or gills and are not obligate bipeds so they are not clubs, hearts or diamonds.

The Fish kind are a group because Fish are mostly ectothermic. They have gill slits which they use to breathe by drawing out oxygen from the water around them. All fish are vertebrates. Most are covered in scales while some can be covered in skin. They have fins and not digits. All the diamonds. These don't have superior intelligence or a blow hole or a reversed hallux, so they are not clubs, spades or hearts.

Mankind is a kind separate to other apes because they do not have a fur coat, are able to make meaning of the world with superior intelligence, abstract thought and sophisticated language, and are obligate bipeds. All the hearts. We don't have gills or a reversed hallux or a blow hole so we are not diamonds, clubs or spades.

There you go. I have used all the cards and separated them into groups and noted the differences. I have done it again. :bow:



This is what Loudmouth is trying to copy in this pitiful example that he does not understand himself.

http://www.bioquest.org/summer2011/w...lade-Race1.pdf

As you can see from the link above the reason why Loudmouth cannot use a usual deck of cards to demonstrate his cladistics as a demo is mostly because he can't. He is therefore asking creationists to do something he is unable to do in his own example. More importantly if Loudmouth gave it a go he would not know which line of rubbish to align with.


Of course once we see that evolutionists actually have no idea what they are talking about as demonstrated in whale ancestry all their synapomorphies are useless because they get a different result based on dna alone, morphology alone and a different result if they combine.


I actually have met the criteria of your challenge as silly as it is. You simply need to suck it up or give us a demonstration of your ability! ^_^

I am sure you can invent a trait that looks like a diamond spade, club or heart. No one that is sane can though! You're a scream!



In actual fact I have met your challenge and now you are being ridiculous to save face!
.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
Do you remember me sayng this?

The challenge is to organize playing cards by the differences between the cards. You haven't done this. If you think I am wrong, then point to a single playing card that has a reversed hallux.

"Loudmouth regardless of this ridiculous idea I have done as you asked. You are simply going to keep moving the goal posts.

The goal posts have not moved since the opening post.
 
Upvote 0

Astridhere

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2011
1,240
43
I live in rural NSW, Australia
✟1,616.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The challenge is to organize playing cards by the differences between the cards. You haven't done this. If you think I am wrong, then point to a single playing card that has a reversed hallux.



The goal posts have not moved since the opening post.

Loudmouth, it may surprise you to learn there are no traits that look like a diamond, spade, club or heart. You also will not be able to name any to demonstrate cladistics either. You are being ridiculous, and everyone can see it. You are not sane.

You have moved the goalpost because now you are asking us to all go insane and hallucinate!

If you want to use cards suits as symbols they need to be symbolic. That is what I have done and NO ONE, including you, can do any better given card sorting is NOT a scientific method.

Clubs represent a kind/group with a reversed hallux.

Spades represent a kind/group with a blow hole

Diamonds represent a kind/group with gills

Hearts represent a kind/group with an ability to make meaning out of the world and are furless obligate bipeds.


I am sure you can invent a trait that looks like a diamond, spade, club or heart. No one that is sane can though! You're a scream!


In actual fact I have met your challenge and now you are being ridiculous to save face!
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Originally Posted by Astridhere Re your last post..you intentionally left out the best bit ..."Birds are a group".......
I left out the bit that had nothing to do with cards. Cards do not have a reversed hallux..
Originally Posted by Astridhere
Guess what? I don't care what you think either because you evos keep coming up with great stuff like this.......

fetchObject.action


Those are mammals, not cards.
:D
That would be my guess.
 
Upvote 0

Astridhere

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2011
1,240
43
I live in rural NSW, Australia
✟1,616.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
LittleLambofJesus..Loudmouth has surely demonstrated not only does he not know what he is talking about and is gobsmacked that a creationist can discern kinds, but he is also looking to get his pride back. I think I have driven Loudmouth insane! ^_^
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
Loudmouth, it may surprise you to learn there are no traits that look like a diamond, spade, club or heart.

Hoyle's books would claim otherwise, as does my own experience with playing cards. Perhaps playing cards are different where you are at?

You have moved the goalpost because now you are asking us to all go insane and hallucinate!

I am still putting forward the same challenge that is found in the opening post.

If you want to use cards suits as symbols they need to be symbolic.

No, they just need to be printed on the cards, and they are.

Clubs represent a kind/group with a reversed hallux.

No playing card has a reversed hallux.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Upvote 0

Astridhere

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2011
1,240
43
I live in rural NSW, Australia
✟1,616.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I left out the bit that had nothing to do with cards. Cards do not have a reversed hallux.



Cards do not have a reversed hallux.



Spades do not have a blow hole.



Diamonds do not have gills.

You still have not shown how to organize CARDS into separate groups based on differences that cards actually have. The challenge in the opening post remains.


I would like to draw everyone attention to Loudmouths post above.

Loudmouth in his desperation to save face is now requesting that creationists demonstrate group traits that are akin to diamonds, clubs, hearts or spades. :confused::confused::doh:

This reply is proof positive that this thread is nothing more than a spoof thread intended to fool by a hoax; play a trick on, especially one intended to deceive. :blush:

Loudmouth is absolutely gobsmacked so now he is demonstrating exactly how ridiculous he can be while destroying any shred of credibility he may have liked to think he had.

I did not realize Loudmouth was playing the joker in his desperate hatred of creationists.

Here is another little gem from Loudmouth....

The challenge is to organize playing cards by the differences between the cards. You haven't done this. If you think I am wrong, then point to a single playing card that has a reversed hallux.

Can any creationist see any sanity in this above at all?????? ...And evolutionists like to pretend they are the scientific ones.

Here it is again, because I know Loudmouth hates it so much.^_^

Clubs represent a kind/group with a reversed hallux.

Spades represent a kind/group with a blow hole

Diamonds represent a kind/group with gills

Hearts represent a kind/group with an ability to make meaning out of the world and are furless obligate bipeds.

The Bird kind are a group because they all have a reversed hallux. That is their signature and you know it. All the clubs. They don't have a blow hole or a fur coat or gills, so they are not spades, diamonds or hearts.

The Whale kind are a group because they have a blow hole. All the spades. These don't have reversed hallux or gills and are not obligate bipeds so they are not clubs, hearts or diamonds.

The Fish kind are a group because Fish are mostly ectothermic. They have gill slits which they use to breathe by drawing out oxygen from the water around them. All fish are vertebrates. Most are covered in scales while some can be covered in skin. They have fins and not digits. All the diamonds. These don't have superior intelligence or a blow hole or a reversed hallux, so they are not clubs, spades or hearts.

Mankind is a kind separate to other apes because they do not have a fur coat, are able to make meaning of the world with superior intelligence, abstract thought and sophisticated language, and are obligate bipeds. All the hearts. We don't have gills or a reversed hallux or a blow hole so we are not diamonds, clubs or spades.

There you go. I have used all the cards and separated them into groups and noted the differences. I have done it again. :bow:
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
I would like to draw everyone attention to Loudmouths post above.

Loudmouth in his desperation to save face is now requesting that creationists demonstrate group traits that are akin to diamonds, clubs, hearts or spades. :confused::confused::doh:

No, I am requesting that creationists group playing cards based on differences just as I requested in the very first post in this thread. Your continual refusal to take up this challenge is duly noted.

Clubs represent a kind/group with a reversed hallux.

Until you show me a playing card with a reversed hallux this is nonsense.

I want everyone to look at Astrid's response. Can anyone point to a playing card with a reversed hallux. If not, what is Astrid trying to do? It is quite obvious. She is trying to change the subject. Why is that?
 
Upvote 0

Astridhere

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2011
1,240
43
I live in rural NSW, Australia
✟1,616.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Loudmouth I have grouped playing cards based on differences.

I again hate to be the one to tell you that there are no traits that look like the suits on cards.

So how does one group if not to use traits? This is where you, Loudmouth, look rather foolish and will continue to do so.

You do realize, don't you, that you have given me the ammunition to embarrass you over this adnauseum indefinitely?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
Loudmouth I have grouped playing cards based on differences.

Where?

teI again hate to be the one to tell you that there are no traits that look like the suits on cards.

This sentence makes no sense at all. Are you saying that cards do not have clubs on them?

So how does one group if not to use traits?

THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for finally agreeing with me.

One can not group things by differences or discontinuities. You form groups based on similarities.

You do realize, don't you, that I am going to embarrass you over this adnauseum indefinitely?

Yes, I am so embarrassed that I can not see that clubs have a reversed hallux. You got me on that one. How stupid of me for not seeing that.

Oh . . . wait. That is just some stupid bovine excrement that you made up. How embarrassing for me . . . :D
 
Upvote 0

Astridhere

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2011
1,240
43
I live in rural NSW, Australia
✟1,616.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Where?



This sentence makes no sense at all. Are you saying that cards do not have clubs on them?



THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for finally agreeing with me.

One can not group things by differences or discontinuities. You form groups based on similarities.

Rubbish. Indeed I bolded the differences you silly person. and related them to card suits as requested :confused:

eg a fish does not have a blow hole. Indeed I refered to similarities as well as differences and that is exactly what you evos do as well as I...continuity and discontinuity....

Clubs represent a kind/group with a reversed hallux.

Spades represent a kind/group with a blow hole

Diamonds represent a kind/group with gills

Hearts represent a kind/group with an ability to make meaning out of the world and are furless obligate bipeds.

The Bird kind are a group because they all have a reversed hallux. That is their signature and you know it. All the clubs. They don't have a blow hole or a fur coat or gills, so they are not spades, diamonds or hearts.

The Whale kind are a group because they have a blow hole. All the spades. These don't have reversed hallux or gills and are not obligate bipeds so they are not clubs, hearts or diamonds.

The Fish kind are a group because Fish are mostly ectothermic. They have gill slits which they use to breathe by drawing out oxygen from the water around them. All fish are vertebrates. Most are covered in scales while some can be covered in skin. They have fins and not digits. All the diamonds. These don't have superior intelligence or a blow hole or a reversed hallux, so they are not clubs, spades or hearts.

Mankind is a kind separate to other apes because they do not have a fur coat, are able to make meaning of the world with superior intelligence, abstract thought and sophisticated language, and are obligate bipeds. All the hearts. We don't have gills or a reversed hallux or a blow hole so we are not diamonds, clubs or spades.

Here is link for some BIO101 tuition that may explain to you that evolutionists use similarities AS WELL AS differences. Silly! :confused:

HSC Online - The Human Story: 1. Classification



Yes, I am so embarrassed that I can not see that clubs have a reversed hallux. You got me on that one. How stupid of me for not seeing that.

Oh . . . wait. That is just some stupid bovine excrement that you made up. How embarrassing for me . . . :D

A gem from Loudmouth....

"Until you show me a playing card with a reversed hallux this is nonsense"

In fact the excretement demonstated is that you Loudmouth are so frustrated with creationists and so require an excuse for your existence on this forum that you started a spoof thread that has done nothing more than demonstrate how disengaged from reality you really are. :p
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
Rubbish. Indeed I bolded the differences you silly person. and related them to card suits as requested :confused:

I didn't ask for you to relate physical characteristics from species to cards. I asked for you to organize cards based on the differences between the cards. That has been the request from the very start. You continually try to change the subject away from that challenge. Why is that.

eg a fish does not have a blow hole.

This thread isn't about fish.

Clubs represent a kind/group with a reversed hallux.

I didn't ask you to use cards to represent species. I asked you to organize cards based on the features on the cards.

The Bird kind . . .

Birds are not cards.

In fact the excretement demonstated is that you Loudmouth are so frustrated with creationists and so require an excuse for your existence on this forum that you started a spoof thread that has done nothing more than demonstrate how disengaged from reality you really are. :p

I am not the one desperately changing the subject. That would be you.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Astridhere

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2011
1,240
43
I live in rural NSW, Australia
✟1,616.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Loudmouth said

I didn't ask for you to relate physical characteristics from species to cards. I asked for you to organize cards based on the differences between the cards. That has been the request from the very start. You continually try to change the subject away from that challenge. Why is that.

The makers of the cards have already done that. They are called suits! ;)

No Loudmouth, I have given exactly what you requested and now you are disengaging with reality to stand your ground.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0