uncaused causes

Dave Ellis

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you are right we have gotten off topic, but someone asked me why I believe what I believe if I find flaw in the first mover argument.

I think you have a poor understanding of philosophy if you think it can't comment on ontology and disregard nearly all of metaphysics. If your premis is philosophy isn't relevant to these topics i honestly think you need to do some more reading on the history of science, the philosophy of science, and metaphysics.


That's not what I'm stating at all. Obviously you can comment on ontology and metaphysics in a philosophical realm, as they are philosophical concepts.

I would counter though that you do not understand science. Science deals with hypotheses based on observation and empirical evidence. Through experimentation, those hypotheses can be determined to be factual, or false. The existence, or non-existence of anything, is a scientific matter... Philosophy can not confirm, or disprove the existence of anything by itself, you need empirical evidence to justify believing that something actually exists.



Not any unverifiable belief it has to be an unverifiable unfalsifiable and synthetic that is predicate or of first principles.

If that dragon truly is a first principle for you I would. But Occam's razor would have me believe you are lying to make a point rather than it actually being a first principle.

You're trying to dodge the point. Assume for the sake of argument I actually believed this dragon existed. Using your criteria for belief in God, I am perfectly justified in believing in my dragon as well.

Is this wrong? And if so, explain how.

And again, God is not a first principle just because you want to define the concept that way.


You misunderstand my conclusion. I nor anyone can not offer you or any evidence for the existence of God I'm the scientific sense. Belief in God isnt a posteriori. It is a first principle or predicate from first principles. If you disagree with this tell me which # in the argument you disagree with and present a valid objection.


Again, just because you define God as a first principle, does not mean he actually exists.

To be justified in believing this thing exists, you must have some kind of evidence. Otherwise, it's just simply a concept in your head.
 
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dcyates

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dcyates you do well in your labor for the Lord.

Continue to persevere in your defense of the gospel.

Those of us who frequent this portion of the website are in such a great position to really learn so much that is going to help us in our ministries.

This is a grace from God and I pray you are benefited as I am.:hug:
Thank you for the kind words, Elioenai. And please know that I pray the same for you, as well.
 
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dcyates

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Thanks for the wholehearted agreement.

The main difference between my view and the one you state is that for me the Cosmic Egg (i.e., whatever existed at the beginning of time/change) transformed into what we see today instead of being transcendent, and it was simply the universe in a different form. I see little point in referring to the universe as a deity since it isn't itself a "someone", but is at best only the natural context for the emergence of someones, such as you and I.


eudaimonia,

Mark
Mark, it seems to me that such a view as yours necessarily introduces the problem of infinite regress. What do you do about that?
 
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Davian

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Oh, my goodness, Davian, where to begin? There are literally thousands of factors and characteristics to the universe that have to be just right in order for life to exist right here on Earth. Obviously whole books could be – and have been – written that explicate them in great detail, and just as obviously, I'm not going to be able to do justice to that here. But I realize it wouldn't do to simply leave it at that, so I'll try to offer at least a few examples of the incredible fine-tuning that exists in the cosmos.
For one, even the total density of stars is evidence of fine-tuning. If there were slightly less stars in the universe, nuclear fusion would be too inefficient so that not enough of the heavier elements necessary for life to exist would have formed; there would be an abundance of hydrogen and helium, but far too little – if anything – of everything else. If there were slightly more stars, there would be too much fusion so that the resulting elements that would exist would all be heavier than iron, with none of the vital lighter elements like carbon, phosphorous, nitrogen, and oxygen.
As well, whereas the density of stars in the universe is just right, as you’re likely already aware, of the total mass in the universe stars actually make up a fairly meagre amount of it with about 25% of the universe’s mass coming from dark matter. It turns out that the amount of dark matter is just right as well, for it kept the universe from expanding too fast after the Big Bang. Otherwise, even with the right number of stars (or rather, the gas that would have coalesced into stars), any nuclear fusion would again have been too inefficient to produce anything but hydrogen – that is, the universe would have been nothing but a giant diffusion of hydrogen gas. (And, of course, the corollary would be the case if there were more dark matter in the universe.)
Closer to home, the four outer gas-giant planets in our solar system are just the right size, are spaced out both from each other and from us, and are at just the right distance so that they act to "sweep" all the really dangerous comets and debris away from us. (E.g. from only a few years ago, if virtually any one of the fragments from Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 had struck Earth rather than Jupiter – never mind all twenty-plus of them – suffice to say none of us would be here right now to discuss this).
But at the same time, especially during the early formation of the solar system, the gas giants allowed enough to get through so that those objects that did reach Earth brought us those vitally important heavier elements we needed for life here. And they also brought us the crucially important amount of water. Not only is water vital to life, but so also is our planet's ability to sustain water in all three of its states simultaneously. (We used to think water was quite rare in the universe, but more recent discoveries have shown that there is in fact an abundance of it. The problem has been that, of all the planets that astronomers have found – and there are even some that are roughly the same size as Earth at roughly the same distance from its star – it appears that Earth is so far the only one capable of sustaining water in its three states all at once. What accounts for this? Well…)
Anywhere from 30 - 100 million years after Earth formed, a roughly Mars-sized planetoid, called Theia, collided with our planet, thus tilting it on its axis at just the right angle (23.5 degrees relative to the plane of our orbit around the Sun) to give us our life-sustaining seasons. Much more or less and the changes in temperature would be simply too extreme for life.
Additionally, geological evidence indicates that Theia also brought with it a simply huge amount of the elements uranium and thorium. In fact, research shows that because of this collision, Earth now contains at least 16,000 times more uranium than any other detected planet, and at least 23,000 times more thorium. These amounts are necessary for the Earth’s development of its electro-magnetic field, which, among other things, keeps our atmosphere from dispersing into space, as well as acting as a continual shield against the Sun’s frequent cosmic radiation blasts that would otherwise have rendered our planet as barren a wasteland as Mars.
And speaking of the atmosphere, the impact of this collision also drove Earth's early atmosphere into space and allowed a more life-friendly atmosphere to form. Theia also increased our mass to just the right size and brought us the balance of the water we needed. And after striking Earth its remains then drifted off to become our moon, which is also just the right size and at just the right distance away to give us the necessary tides to keep our oceans, seas, and lakes clean and life-sustaining. If our moon were just a little closer or bigger in size, the tides would be continuous tsunamis. On the other hand, if the moon were just a little further away or smaller, our oceans and seas would have become brackish and hostile to life aeons ago.
Theia also knocked the Earth into just the right orbit – called the “Sweet Spot" or the “Goldilocks” zone (or, less creatively, the habitability zone) – where if it were slightly farther from the Sun, it would be too cold, and much closer and the planet would be too hot; similar to if the Sun was slightly smaller or bigger than it is.
I could also mention the fine-tuning of the force of gravity relative to the electric (Coulomb) force. If it were slightly stronger, stars would be smaller and have shorter lifespans. Our Sun is about 4.6 billion-yrs old; about halfway through its life. Thus, if the gravitational force were any stronger, the Sun would have burned itself out by now, cutting too short the necessary time for the evolution of life on the planet.
Furthermore, the planets too would be adversely affected in that they too would likewise be smaller and denser, resulting in higher surface gravities. Even if any life forms were to evolve, because of the shorter time period and greater gravity, they would not evolve much beyond the single-cellular stage. (And that’s a huge “if”!)
It would affect the formation of galaxies, too. They would be smaller and more compact. With stars too close together, competing gravitational forces would tear solar systems apart. Without stable solar orbits, life could not even get started, much less evolve.
On the other hand, if the gravitational force relative to the Coulomb force were much weaker, far fewer stars would form, leaving far fewer planets on which any life could arise.
But truly amazing evidence of fine-tuning takes us back to dark matter. There is about five or more times as much dark matter as ordinary matter (i.e. stars, planets, and gas and dust clouds). Both exert gravity, which causes an attractive tug on the expanding universe. Knowing how rapidly the universe is expanding, it’s possible to calculate just how much matter – of both types – there would have to be to stop the universe from expanding. That amount of matter is called the critical density; the amount that is just enough to cause a re-collapse of the universe. If the universe had on average the critical density, it would expand ever more slowly, stopping altogether at some point in the distant future. More than the critical density and the universe would eventually collapse upon itself.
As it turns out, the actual current density is about 30% of the critical density. But if you extrapolate back in time, 30% of critical density today translates into a 99.999999999999999% of critical density one second after the Big Bang. Obviously this is incredibly close to 100%; in fact, one part in a million billion according to British cosmologist Sir Martin Rees.
Here is amazing fine-tuning. If the density immediately after the Big Bang had been only 99.9% of critical, without all the other decimal-place nines, the density today would be many orders of magnitude less. This would have the consequence that the universe would be expanding too fast for stars and galaxies to form.
And had it been just a fraction of a percent greater than 100% of the critical density at the very beginning, the universe would have collapsed long ago.
Thus we have the situation that if the overall density of matter in the universe had been higher or lower than it was at the very beginning, and by an utterly infinitesimal percentage, we would either have a completely lifeless universe with black holes instead of stars, or else nothing but a tenuous gas filling the universe instead of stars and planets. A millionth of a millionth percent difference either way at the time of the Big Bang would have doomed, not just life, but the universe itself one way or the other. THAT is an impressive fine-tuning.
I haven’t even mentioned the fine-tuning involved concerning the weak and strong nuclear forces, the even bigger mystery of dark energy, quantum clumps, the chemistry of life (re: carbon and oxygen), the extraordinary properties of water, the relative heaviness of neutrons to protons, the role of anti-matter (or rather the lack of it), and I could go on and on.
In the face of all this, even atheist astrophysicist Sir Fred Hoyle calculated that the chance of all the factors necessary for life to have worked themselves out purely via blind, purposeless chance would be the mathematical equivalent of a tornado touching down in a junk yard and leaving in its wake a complete and fully functioning Boeing 747. Now, I’m no math genius, but I’ve got to think those are some pretty long odds.
Show your math.


LOL! Trying to duck the question? Fail.


Even without going into great detail, what I'm asserting should be as evident to any right-minded person as the wetness of water. So, really, it could be argued that the burden of proof should be on the one attempting to deny something otherwise so ridiculously obvious.
It could be, but not successfully. You are the one making the assertion.

Nevertheless, I have backed up my assertion.
No, you have not. Not even a larger font, or a darker shade of green will help in this case.


LOL!!! Okay. I'm leaving these two sentences 'as is' and, as a show of good faith, will refrain from comment.
I am asking, in determining this "fine tuning", to what are you comparing the cosmos to?


ETA? Estimated Time of Arrival?!? What does your version of "ETA" stand for?
You must be new to this. I stands for "Edit to Add", and I put it there as a courtesy to other posters, like yourself, to be clear on what I changed on my original post.

Really? What would you rather call a very sudden, unimaginably hot expansion of energy and matter in all directions? Frankly, methinks a rose by any other name...
"The Big Bang is not an explosion of matter moving outward to fill an empty universe. Instead, space itself expands with time everywhere and increases the physical distance between two comoving points. Because the FLRW metric assumes a uniform distribution of mass and energy, it applies to our Universe only on large scales—local concentrations of matter such as our galaxy are gravitationally bound and as such do not experience the large-scale expansion of space." wiki
 
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dcyates

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Right, but why are the doctrines believable?
Yeah, I'm going to have to go with ellis here, JonF. If you're going to reject something like the Kalam cosmological argument based solely on the fact that atheists refuse to accept it and its coherence, I really fail to see how you've improved the situation by instead positing the Calvinist's TULIP, which after all consists of doctrinal stances to which even the vast majority of theists don't adhere (and that includes most Christians). To be truthful, in my opinion, doing so actually introduces far more problems than it fails to solve.
 
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dcyates

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Even supernatural occurrences could leave testable evidence, which we could scientifically examine.
Not really; because looking at the effect is only half the story, and often the least important half. Those occurrences, or causes, are, by definition, unrepeatable.

Science works on no presupposition, and in fact presupposition is against the principles of Science.
Here I'm definitely going to have to call bullflop. Approaching anything completely free of presupposition is impossible.

Science is all about following where the evidence leads.
If only. Too often today science is all about following where the govt grants and politics lead.
 
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JonF

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That's not what I'm stating at all. Obviously you can comment on ontology and metaphysics in a philosophical realm, as they are philosophical concepts.

I would counter though that you do not understand science. Science deals with hypotheses based on observation and empirical evidence. Through experimentation, those hypotheses can be determined to be factual, or false. The existence, or non-existence of anything, is a scientific matter... Philosophy can not confirm, or disprove the existence of anything by itself, you need empirical evidence to justify believing that something actually exists.





You're trying to dodge the point. Assume for the sake of argument I actually believed this dragon existed. Using your criteria for belief in God, I am perfectly justified in believing in my dragon as well.

Is this wrong? And if so, explain how.

And again, God is not a first principle just because you want to define the concept that way.





Again, just because you define God as a first principle, does not mean he actually exists.

To be justified in believing this thing exists, you must have some kind of evidence. Otherwise, it's just simply a concept in your head.
Do you know what ontology and metaphysics are? They definitely deal with existence.

You keep repeating your self. Address my position one of these directly:

-Belief in God is a first principle (nerds a valid objection to my argument)
-Science isn't relevant to belief in God (either way) because of the fundamental assumptions of science
-How a priori synthetic claims are justified.
 
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sandwiches

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Irestible grace explains that, did you actually read it?

So, after reading a bunch of your replies, it boils down to:
"I believe it's because I am chosen that I believe in God."

When pushed on why you started believing you keep mentioning this "irresistible grace" doctrine. So, as someone else said from the very first time you mentioned this doctrine: You believe "just because."
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Gee, without even knowing about this, I've already addressed a lot of these concerns in my previous post. I already noted why the universe has to be as unimaginably vast as it is, which also touches on why it has to be as old as it is (13.7 billion-yrs old for the record -- give or take a couple millennia).
And all due respect to Dr. Tyson, but complaining about how the human body is designed is closely akin to complaining about how Steve Jobs designed the iPod.
"Why didn't he make the screen bigger so you could watch movies on it better?"
"Why didn't he make it more powerful with more memory and gigabites or whatever so you could download as many songs and movies as you want?"
"Why didn't he make the keyboard bigger so it would be easier to type?"
"Why doesn't it come with a printer so you could print photographs and whatever you want whenever you want?"
You don't like the iPod as Steve Jobs designed it? Come up with a better one then.
You don't like the human body as God designed it? Come up with a better one then.

I think you've missed his point. You argue that things in the universe have been arranged such that they are "just right" for human life, and that this apparent fine tuning is supposedly reason enough to suspect that some benevolent intelligence has arranged the cosmic arena in such a way to accomodate our existence. Tyson rightly points out the absurdity of such a view. The perimeter of "just right" for human life is around only tiny fractions of a fragile world, in a universe dominated by "not just right" spaces that would result in our instant death. The universe hasn't been fine tuned for our existence.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Mark, it seems to me that such a view as yours necessarily introduces the problem of infinite regress. What do you do about that?

Please explain to me why you think my view introduces an infinite regress. My view is intended to avoid one.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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WonderBeat

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In defense of the existence of a (generic) god we often hear the argument that an "uncaused cause/unmoved mover" is necessary as an explanation for the existence of the physical world.
Leaving aside for a moment all the weaknesses of this argument:
Is there a good reason to assume that there´s only one single such "unmoved mover/uncaused cause" - i.e. would the validity of this argument really make a case for monotheism?

Actually, we are all, as the collective Son of God, responsible for the creation of the universe. Not God the Father, per se.
 
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dcyates

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And you're wrong.
That's it?!? I'm wrong?!? Wow! Way to make it easy on yourself! Here, I'll do the same thing.

No, I'm right.

It's clear that's how things are.
Yes! Of course! I mean, tornadoes go through junk yards and leave behind fully functioning Boeing 747s all the time! Right?

You have no justification whatsoever to jump to the conclusion that an intelligence did it, or those numbers could have come out any other way than they did.
So, let me see if I've got this straight. If you come across a TV set, a radio, a microwave oven, a laptop computer, an automobile, an oscillating fan, whatever -- you have no justification whatsoever to "jump" to the conclusion that an intelligence was behind any of it.
Okay. So, if you and I were walking along a beach, and I spotted a compact disc in the sand, picked it up and marvelled: "Wow! Look at this, Dave! The water and the tides took the available sand, kelp, driftwood, seaweed, what have you, and over the course of thousands, perhaps millions of years, through purely blind, purposeless forces, managed to work it all together so that this CD was produced! And lo and behold! It's even compatible with your computer!" you would prudentially respond: "You're entirely correct, David. It APPEARS amazing, but in all reality it truly isn't. After all, you have no justification whatsoever to jump to the conclusion that any intelligence was the cause of this otherwise beach-bound compact disc"?

No, actually I strongly suspect your reaction would be to look at me like I was out of my flippin' gourd -- and you'd be right.
(I'm using a computer disc as an illustration because Bill Gates once said that DNA was like code for a computer program, "only a lot more complex.")

No, you haven't.
I haven't?!? Well, then what are all those scientific facts and mathematical figures doing there?

Simply asserting what you believe as truth is not backing up your assertion.
Gee, I could have saved myself a lot of time then if all that I rehearsed above really only amounts to the simple statement, "What I believe is true."
The fact is, I'm doing a heckuva lot more to back up my arguments than anything I've seen coming from you God-haters. Unless, that is, you think simply gainsaying whatever a theist presents constitutes a substantive counter-argument. Your responses here provide perfect examples of this: "And you're wrong." "It's clear that's how things are." "No, you haven't." Lol. Pretty thin there, ellis.

Actually, a comment would be applicable here, as he didn't contradict himself as you seem to be implying.
Yes, he did.

He said for you to make a claim of fine tuning, you would need something to compare this universe to.... namely another universe.
You mean, such as universes where factors were such that they collapsed in upon themselves soon after their coming into existence? Or one where its characteristics were such that stars and galaxies were unable to form? Or a universe where heavier elements failed to be produced? Or another one where none of the lighter elements could exist? Or one that consisted only of blackholes? Or another one that was nothing but hydrogen gas? Or one wholly incompatible with the formation and development of complex lifeforms? Or of any type of life altogether? You mean another universe like any of those?

He also stated, he doesn't know if one exists.
Right. No one does. And speculating on the possibility of one's existence isn't based on scientific thought, much less observation. Although that doesn't seem to stop any atheists (who otherwise trumpet their devout dedication to 'science') from doing so.

All that means is that the evidence you'd require to prove your position may not exist.
Oh. Haven't I already declared that deducing the existence of God from all of this is simply an inference to the best explanation? I didn't make the claim it was "evidence" or "proof."
 
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Dave Ellis

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That's it?!? I'm wrong?!? Wow! Way to make it easy on yourself! Here, I'll do the same thing.

No, I'm right.

Apparently you failed to read the part after I said you're wrong, explaining why you were wrong....


Yes! Of course! I mean, tornadoes go through junk yards and leave behind fully functioning Boeing 747s all the time! Right?

I never asserted they did.


So, let me see if I've got this straight. If you come across a TV set, a radio, a microwave oven, a laptop computer, an automobile, an oscillating fan, whatever -- you have no justification whatsoever to "jump" to the conclusion that an intelligence was behind any of it.
Okay. So, if you and I were walking along a beach, and I spotted a compact disc in the sand, picked it up and marvelled: "Wow! Look at this, Dave! The water and the tides took the available sand, kelp, driftwood, seaweed, what have you, and over the course of thousands, perhaps millions of years, through purely blind, purposeless forces, managed to work it all together so that this CD was produced! And lo and behold! It's even compatible with your computer!" you would prudentially respond: "You're entirely correct, David. It APPEARS amazing, but in all reality it truly isn't. After all, you have no justification whatsoever to jump to the conclusion that any intelligence was the cause of this otherwise beach-bound compact disc"?

The reason you are able to identify the CD as designed, is because you can contrast it with all the natural features around it that aren't.

No, actually I strongly suspect your reaction would be to look at me like I was out of my flippin' gourd -- and you'd be right.
(I'm using a computer disc as an illustration because Bill Gates once said that DNA was like code for a computer program, "only a lot more complex.")

Bill Gates is a computer programmer, not a biologist. I would guess his knowledge of DNA is comparable to the general population. DNA is not a code per se, we write it as a code so we can easily perceive it... But to condiser it as some kind of encoded data is incorrect.


I haven't?!? Well, then what are all those scientific facts and mathematical figures doing there?

Without comparable data, you can not generate odds. You'd need to have access to many universes to determine what the statistic probability of things turning out like they did in this universe is. They had a sample size of one, everything they did statistics-wise is speculation. Proper statistics don't work that way.

I'm sure the scientific figures are accurate. But again, there's no reason to assume they could be "tuned" any other way.


Gee, I could have saved myself a lot of time then if all that I rehearsed above really only amounts to the simple statement, "What I believe is true."

That's basically what you're doing. We've explained to you why the fine tuning argument is nonsense, and you continue arguing it.

The fact is, I'm doing a heckuva lot more to back up my arguments than anything I've seen coming from you God-haters.


Who hates God on here? Can you name names?

Unless, that is, you think simply gainsaying whatever a theist presents constitutes a substantive counter-argument. Your responses here provide perfect examples of this: "And you're wrong." "It's clear that's how things are." "No, you haven't." Lol. Pretty thin there, ellis.

Again, if you only read "and you're wrong", and ignore the explanation why afterwards.... then it's pretty weak.

If you actually read the full response, you could address the counter-argument, which is the strong part.

Yes, he did.

No, he didn't... and I explained why.

You mean, such as universes where factors were such that they collapsed in upon themselves soon after their coming into existence? Or one where its characteristics were such that stars and galaxies were unable to form? Or a universe where heavier elements failed to be produced? Or another one where none of the lighter elements could exist? Or one that consisted only of blackholes? Or another one that was nothing but hydrogen gas? Or one wholly incompatible with the formation and development of complex lifeforms? Or of any type of life altogether? You mean another universe like any of those?

Yeah, that's exactly what you'd need to create reliable statistics.

Right. No one does. And speculating on the possibility of one's existence isn't based on scientific thought, much less observation. Although that doesn't seem to stop any atheists (who otherwise trumpet their devout dedication to 'science') from doing so.

You're mistaking speculation with assertion. Nobody on here has asserted multiple universes do, or do not exist. There's nothing wrong with speculation though.

Oh. Haven't I already declared that deducing the existence of God from all of this is simply an inference to the best explanation? I didn't make the claim it was "evidence" or "proof."

But it's not the best explanation. Even if the universe was indeed "finely tuned".... you still have absolutely no justification to assume it was an intelligent force, or God that did it. There is simply no evidence whatsoever to tie the two concepts together.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Do you know what ontology and metaphysics are? They definitely deal with existence.

Dealing with existence, and providing justification to believe something exists are two completely separate things.

You keep repeating youself. Address my podition one of these directly:

-Belief in God is a first principle (nerds a valid objection to my argument)

Every God argument I'm aware of shows god to exist because of "x". That's a demonstration it's not a foundational principle, and is reached because of some form of deduction. It might be scripture, it might be an ontological argument, it might be any form of apologetic.

You simply have no reason to assume God is a first principle. You need to provide reason why you accept belief in his existence.

-Science isn't relevant to belief in God (either way) because of the fundamental assumptions of science

This has been previously addressed. Science makes no fundamental assumptions.

-How a priori synthetic claims are justified.

Empirical evidence.
 
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dcyates

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Show your math.
What're you, my teacher?!? No! Address the arguments! Posit counter-arguments! Show me where the math is wrong! Go ahead, make my day! Give me your best shot! Sock it to me! But for goodness sake, give me something other than these pathetic, meaningless, non-responses that do everything to evade, avoid, or otherwise obfuscate the points being presented. Please.

It could be, but not successfully. You are the one making the assertion.
Oh, brother. Sigh.

No, you have not. Not even a larger font, or a darker shade of green will help in this case.
Yeah, that's relevant! You did notice that my original post didn't consist of any larger font than is normal, didn't you? Then why bring it up here? Except to further evade the issues, that is.

I am asking, in determining this "fine tuning", to what are you comparing the cosmos to?
Isn't it obvious? I'm comparing it to universes that are not fine-tuned (hypothetical though they may be). I'm even explaining how those universes would result without such fine-tuning. I think I'm being perfectly clear here.
And you should be aware that the term 'cosmos' actually connotes 'order', as in 'an orderly universe as opposed to a chaotic one'. One could even go so far as to say, 'a universe that is fine-tuned as opposed to one that is not', which is, of course, the very topic at hand.
(On a lighter note, cosmos is a Greek term that originally indicated "to bring order from a state of chaos," from which we get the term 'cosmetics'.)

You must be new to this. I stands for "Edit to Add", and I put it there as a courtesy to other posters, like yourself, to be clear on what I changed on my original post.
Fine. I was just asking. (And don't think I don't appreciate your giving me a straight-forward answer -- if only for this one time.;))

"The Big Bang is not an explosion of matter moving outward to fill an empty universe. Instead, space itself expands with time everywhere and increases the physical distance between two comoving points. Because the FLRW metric assumes a uniform distribution of mass and energy, it applies to our Universe only on large scales—local concentrations of matter such as our galaxy are gravitationally bound and as such do not experience the large-scale expansion of space." wiki
Yeah, as I say, "A rose by any other name...." This is really a distinction without a difference.
Now, are you ever going to answer my question?
 
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KCfromNC

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You need to look into the philosophy of science more. Science rest on many assumptions.

None of which is the assumption that everything is natural, which was your original claim.

Please demonstrate causality without first assuming it. If you can you would become rather famous.
Assume causality is false - there will be no consequences for any actions. Punch someone in the face. Observe consequences. Initial assumption is proven false. There you go - causality demonstrated via a proof by contradiction, no assumption of causality needed.


I never said God being non falsifiable offers evidence that He exist. You really need to stop misrepresenting my argument and use the principle of charitable interpretation if you want this discussion to continue. I will formally state my position in an effort to further this conversation.

Here are my claims to cogency:

1. Belief in God is not a posteriori verifiable
2. Belief in God is not a posteriori falsifiable
3. Belief in God is synthetic not analytic.
4. Thus justification for belief in God either way is a priori synthetic.
c. Thus justification for belief in God either way is a first principle or predicate of first principle.

Which do you disagree with?
Doesn't matter, since it's off topic for answering the question "why do you believe". This simply shows what categories of justification are off limits, assuming your assumptions are correct. It says nothing about the actual existence of a justification in one of the not-off-limits categories or its validity. Substitute "justification, assuming one exists" for "justification" in the above claims and you'll see what I mean.
 
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JonF

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You simply have no reason to assume God is a first principle. You need to provide reason why you accept belief in his existence.
I gave you a valid deductive argument for this, which you have yet to give any valid refutation of one of its premises.

This has been previously addressed. Science makes no fundamental assumptions.
Yes it does. It assumes natural law exist, another way to state that is there are consistent governing principles. It assumes causality hold. It assumes universality. You seriously need to take a good look into the philosophy of science.

Empirical evidence.
Oh? All that a priori empirical evidence huh?

None of which is the assumption that everything is natural, which was your original claim.
Have you looked into the history/philosophy of science? Be honest. Or are you just asserting this yourself.

Assume causality is false - there will be no consequences for any actions. Punch someone in the face. Observe consequences. Initial assumption is proven false. There you go - causality demonstrated via a proof by contradiction, no assumption of causality needed.
You need to read more into what causality is.

Doesn't matter, since it's off topic for answering the question "why do you believe". This simply shows what categories of justification are off limits, assuming your assumptions are correct. It says nothing about the actual existence of a justification in one of the not-off-limits categories or its validity. Substitute "justification, assuming one exists" for "justification" in the above claims and you'll see what I mean.
Your argument is hard to follow her. Are you claiming that in my argument you can substitute “any random person” with “God”. That isn’t so, belief in the existence of people is verifiable.
 
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