Atheism (3)

Buy Bologna · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
wow, I mean wow. You blame God for Isaiah 9:20?

here is a seminary level commentary on it....

A description of wickedness (9:18-21)

9:18-21. The peoples wickedness (cf. v. 17) is pictured as burning them up like a huge fire with a large column of smoke. The judgment would come not only from God (v. 11) and from enemies of the nation (v. 12), but also from within. The nation would destroy itself by its own wicked deeds. People would oppose each other (v. 19), devour each other (v. 20), and even entire tribes will be in conflict (v. 21). On the refrain in verse 21b see comments on verse 12.

Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (1:1054). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

I was talking about god's love.

Remember?

quatona · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
it's how to deal with Christians in a historical document. If he didn't believe that Christ existed, why say it!!!

Because he was describing other persons´ beliefs. That´s part of what historians do.

createdtoworship · Jul 24, 2012

quatona said:
Because he was describing other persons´ beliefs. That´s part of what historians do.

not if it's not history they dont'

createdtoworship · Jul 24, 2012

Buy Bologna said:
I was talking about god's love.

Remember?

but that verse is talking about the wicked results of evil doers.

createdtoworship · Jul 24, 2012

Dave Ellis said:
Yes, I know, I've read the work before.

Thank you for proving my point by the way, nowhere in his entire work does he mention anything about Jesus himself.

"christ" who does that entail? Answer that question and then we can move on.

Eudaimonist · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
"christ" who does that entail? Answer that question and then we can move on.

That isn't a detail about an earthly Jesus, but merely the name of a deity that the Christians evidently followed and never necessarily witnessed in the flesh. Those are two very different things.

eudaimonia,

Mark

dlamberth · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
it's how to deal with Christians in a historical document. If he didn't believe that Christ existed, why say it!!! If you want to disprove it, you will have to disprove pliny from being a historical writer!

Pliny was talking about his first meeting with "Christians". And that's it!!!

He mentioned Christ because he was talking about what the Christians believed.

It's really, REALLY clear that Pliny was NOT saying that he believed that Christ existed. But he does make it clear that "Christians" existed and that some were even willing to die for their beliefs.

.

quatona · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
not if it's not history they dont'

I think nobody here denies or questions the historical fact that people believed and believe in Christ.

Belk · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
not if it's not history they dont'

Historians never describe the beliefs of the people they are documenting? So Odin, Zeus, Ra, and Tiamat are all real?

Dave Ellis · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
"christ" who does that entail? Answer that question and then we can move on.

We have no idea, he mentions nothing about "Christ" apart from the fact Christians worship him.

"Zeus" Who does that entail?

It's no different.

dlamberth · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
"christ" who does that entail? Answer that question and then we can move on.

For me, Christ Consciousness.

.

createdtoworship · Jul 24, 2012

Dave Ellis said:
We have no idea, he mentions nothing about "Christ" apart from the fact Christians worship him.

"Zeus" Who does that entail?

It's no different.

he doesn't have to believe in christ to simply state the fact that He existed.

ToddNotTodd · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
he doesn't have to believe in christ to simply state the fact that He existed.

But of course he didn't do that. And even had he done that, he would have needed evidence to be a credible historian.

Dave Ellis · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
he doesn't have to believe in christ to simply state the fact that He existed.

But he didn't state that Christ existed. He only stated that Christians follow Christ.

Again, stating that Christians follow Christ, or that Ancient Greeks follow Zeus is not a statement that either one exist. He's merely relaying the beliefs of Christians.

dlamberth · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
he doesn't have to believe in christ to simply state the fact that He existed.

He did not say that Christ existed.

.

createdtoworship · Jul 24, 2012

dlamberth said:
He did not say that Christ existed.

.

He mentions christ, who do you think He was talking about?

createdtoworship · Jul 24, 2012

Dave Ellis said:
But he didn't state that Christ existed. He only stated that Christians follow Christ.

Again, stating that Christians follow Christ, or that Ancient Greeks follow Zeus is not a statement that either one exist. He's merely relaying the beliefs of Christians.

He mentions christ, who do you think He was talking about?

SaraJarvis · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
He mentions christ, who do you think He was talking about?

He mentions that Christians follow Christ. He does not, however, state that Christ exists.

Sorry, but after watching this go back and forth, my mind is starting to frazzle.

What do you not understand about the above statement? :doh:

The fact that he mentions Christ in reference to what Christians believe, is not proving anything. You're either being pedantic or REALLY think you're on to something. I don't know which is worse.

TScott · Jul 24, 2012

This is an utterly silly argument.

createdtoworship · Jul 24, 2012

SaraJarvis said:
He mentions that Christians follow Christ. He does not, however, state that Christ exists.

Sorry, but after watching this go back and forth, my mind is starting to frazzle.

What do you not understand about the above statement?

The fact that he mentions Christ in reference to what Christians believe, is not proving anything. You're either being pedantic or REALLY think you're on to something. I don't know which is worse.

he doesn't say christians follow Christ either. All of this is assumed. He just states the name christ, evidence enough!

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