Another Woman dies for the "right" of abortion.

Azadok2day said:

People get killed by cars all the time without being in them , just saying as you put it.

As for the woman who die from abortion I have no pity for them , they die from the vile act of murdering an innocent child . The fact some woman use abortion as a form of birth control and people agree with it is disgusting .

Every abortion is just another sacrifice to Satan and any Christian that agrees with abortion is no Christian in my book and most likely Christs book.

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Ah, you sweetheart, you. Jesus would be proud.

Metal Minister said:

Excuse me, but when society no longer deems unborn life as worth any more than yesterday's garbage, yeah its a culture of death. When over 15 million unborn children have been forcibly torn from their mothers womb, yeah its a culture of death. I truly feel sorry for people in a tough situation, but it was NEVER the child's fault. Why should they take the punishment? Most of the excuses given for abortion can be solved with one thing. Adoption. I have a family friend, who found herself pregnant at an age and financial situation where it would've been impossible to raise a child. She chose adoption. The child is now a happy, healthy 4 year old, with the couple that adopted him. But as I said, most people can't accept responsibility, or just flat don't care. We live in a society where it is EASIER AND CHEAPER TO KILL A CHILD THAN TO ALLOW SOMEONE ELSE THE CHANCE TO GIVE THAT CHILD A FUTURE! I am absolutely ASHAMED of humanity. We've gone from protecting the weakest among us to killing them. THAT IS THE CULTURE OF DEATH! And as far as "painting with a broad brush" goes, I can only assume you're talking about the question to nonbelievers thread. I asked questions there to learn the distinctions, not painting a broad brush. In this instance there are only two ways to look at abortion: you're for it or against it. The "I'd never do it, but I wouldn't stop someone else" crowd is for it. If I could delete this thread, I would, but since I can't, I'm unsubscribing. You can talk to yourselves...

May God Richly Bless You! MM

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I'm sorry you're unable to see a middle ground. Recognizing nuances is a sign of intelligence, so I'll let you off the hook. BTW, do you have a biblical reference that agrees with your opinion regarding abortion?

Publius said:

Everything that happens is God's will. The question is, is it God's sovereign will (that is, what God does) or is it God's permissive will (that is, what God does not do, but allows to happen).

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I would think that sovereign will precludes permissive will from being then anything more than God's plan to play chess on the board of his creation. With we the pawns, while he is the back row and the rule book, if I am to see God in your way.

Especially as a woman.

Ephesians 1:11 (ESV)
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

Job 42:2 (ESV)
I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Again as I see it, if all things work according to the council of God's will, it's either all or nothing. Even what is said to be permitted by his will, it is first, because God is sovereign, appointed as that what is working as having been predestined according to the purpose of his sovereign will.

In the case of your girlfriend, since death is not of God, we must conclude that, while not God's sovereign will, it is God's permissive will.

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God let her baby die, because that spontaneous abortion was predestined according to the purpose of him that works all things according to the council of his will.

Both myself and her husband comforted her, even in our arms, for days while she tried to understand the loss of her baby.

I respect that that's how you see her suffering. However, I know her.
Also, if all things are created of God then so too even is death in any way one may read it described in the scriptures.

In the case of the victims of abortion, we know that this is not God's sovereign will because the authority to take life does not belong to man.

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It rather resides in God's sovereign authority then?
As when, in various accounts througout the old testament, God ordained that man should take the life of other men, so as to further his agenda for his chosen people.
Or as when God slaughtered the first born of every Egyptian family in Egypt so as to prove his sovereignty unto Pagan Egypt and supplant their false Gods?
What then of Harrod and his decree in the new testament well after that, when he ordained the first born of every Jewish house should be put to death to insure God born as Messiah would not come to life?

The difference is one of a naturally occurring event and a murder.

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Here I am reminded of the Declaration of Independence. Specifically it's reference to nature and nature's God. As I am reminded when people say America was founded as a Christian nation.
I would think when God is sovereign, Ephesians 1:1 works out even as he is responsible for letting murder happen.

Have you ever wondered about the verse in Genesis 2:7? When God breathed into the nostrils of Adam and he became a living soul? Abiding then in the temple of the flesh wherein the NT says God's kingdom dwells.

When Adam became a living soul then, what was the soul prior to living there, according to God's sovereign will?

TomZzyzx said:

I see your confusion,

First, there is really no such thing as a fertilized egg. Both the sperm and egg cease to exist at the moment of conception. A new entity called a Human Being begins to exist at conception.

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...what? First of all, let's ignore the fact that you don't know what "fertilized egg" means. Secondly, this "new entity" called a "Human Being" does not survive past fertilization >75% of the time.

Thirdly, egg + sperm = zygote = fertilized egg = develops into an embryo = develops into a fetus = develops into a child

TomZzyzx said:

Second, Christians have an active trust in God to always do the right thing. Even if that means that we don't always have all the answers. So there is no reason to ask questions that we may never know the answers to.

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There's no reason to ask these questions?! Wow. Sorry pal, but I am not a fan of willful ignorance.

Azadok2day said:

People get killed by cars all the time without being in them , just saying as you put it.

As for the woman who die from abortion I have no pity for them , they die from the vile act of murdering an innocent child . The fact some woman use abortion as a form of birth control and people agree with it is disgusting .

Every abortion is just another sacrifice to Satan and any Christian that agrees with abortion is no Christian in my book and most likely Christs book.

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Poe, right?

I'm going to come out of lurkdom and address this.

Excuse me, but when society no longer deems unborn life as worth any more than yesterday's garbage, yeah its a culture of death. When over 15 million unborn children have been forcibly torn from their mothers womb, yeah its a culture of death. I truly feel sorry for people in a tough situation, but it was NEVER the child's fault. Why should they take the punishment? Most of the excuses given for abortion can be solved with one thing. Adoption. I have a family friend, who found herself pregnant at an age and financial situation where it would've been impossible to raise a child. She chose adoption. The child is now a happy, healthy 4 year old, with the couple that adopted him.

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You pro lifers like to scream about how adoption is a better alternative. But fail to recognize how broken the adoption and foster care system is. I work in social services and many children are still waiting to be adopted. It's really awful for kids when they have a mental or physical disability, especially once they're older. Many parents aren't looking to adopt older nor disabled children, they want babies. But if that baby is not chosen, they're going to have to wait, Not to mention the hierarchy that's involved when parents are wanting to adopt. But that's another issue altogether. You cite how the child found a family? Well that's great, but guess what? That story is more of an exception. If a child is "fortunate" enough to be adopted, there's the likelihood of being placed in a horrible foster family where the child will face abuse. Or being shuffled around from home to home. The chances of being placed in a good home are very slim.

You also make it seem like adoption is a much easier decision. Giving your child up can be just as difficult as making the choice to terminate a pregnancy. So please, kindly stop touting adoption as an alternative when you won't even recognize the problems with the adoption system.

Azadok2day said:

People get killed by cars all the time without being in them , just saying as you put it.

As for the woman who die from abortion I have no pity for them , they die from the vile act of murdering an innocent child . The fact some woman use abortion as a form of birth control and people agree with it is disgusting .

Every abortion is just another sacrifice to Satan and any Christian that agrees with abortion is no Christian in my book and most likely Christs book.

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Eeeegads!
Such venom for women! So much for being like unto Christ and obeying the law when it was summed up by Jesus in the new testament in John 13:34!

When you quantify, 'every' (all) abortion is just another sacrifice to Satan, you're implicating God's will exercised as spontaneous abortion miscarriage.

Judge not lest ye... oh, that's not even applicable now that you've gone that far past the mark.

I mean this from the bottom of my heart. Your wife is in my prayers.

Lion Hearted Man said:

Poe, right?

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It's not an uncommon view point.

My brothers and sisters, be not alarmed by the callous and apathetic words that are being uttered by those people here who see life as nothing more than an accidental collocation of atoms.

Be not alarmed when people are not moved by these heartrending tales of murder and infanticide.

People who maintain that we are simply a little higher on the evolutinal ladder than monkeys see these horrendous accounts as no different than the account of the death of a primate at a zoo.

Atheism and any other philosophy that denies that humans are precious and intrinsically valuble compels their adherents to cavalierly say: "so what?"

PassionFruit said:

I'm going to come out of lurkdom and address this.



You pro lifers like to scream about how adoption is a better alternative. But fail to recognize how broken the adoption and foster care system is. I work in social services and many children are still waiting to be adopted. It's really awful for kids when they have a mental or physical disability, especially once they're older. Many parents aren't looking to adopt older nor disabled children, they want babies. But if that baby is not chosen, they're going to have to wait, Not to mention the hierarchy that's involved when parents are wanting to adopt. But that's another issue altogether. You cite how the child found a family? Well that's great, but guess what? That story is more of an exception. If a child is "fortunate" enough to be adopted, there's the likelihood of being placed in a horrible foster family where the child will face abuse. Or being shuffled around from home to home. The chances of being placed in a good home are very slim.

You also make it seem like adoption is a much easier decision. Giving your child up can be just as difficult as making the choice to terminate a pregnancy. So please, kindly stop touting adoption as an alternative when you won't even recognize the problems with the adoption system.

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Justifying murder on the basis of assumption is indicative of the ramifications of adhereing to a naturalistc worldview.

PassionFruit said:

I'm going to come out of lurkdom and address this.



You pro lifers like to scream about how adoption is a better alternative. But fail to recognize how broken the adoption and foster care system is. I work in social services and many children are still waiting to be adopted. It's really awful for kids when they have a mental or physical disability, especially once they're older. Many parents aren't looking to adopt older nor disabled children, they want babies. But if that baby is not chosen, they're going to have to wait, Not to mention the hierarchy that's involved when parents are wanting to adopt. But that's another issue altogether. You cite how the child found a family? Well that's great, but guess what? That story is more of an exception. If a child is "fortunate" enough to be adopted, there's the likelihood of being placed in a horrible foster family where the child will face abuse. Or being shuffled around from home to home. The chances of being placed in a good home are very slim.

You also make it seem like adoption is a much easier decision. Giving your child up can be just as difficult as making the choice to terminate a pregnancy. So please, kindly stop touting adoption as an alternative when you won't even recognize the problems with the adoption system.

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Most of these "pro-lifers" are what I consider to be 'arm chair christians.' They know all the polemic rhetoric, but really haven't taken the time to consider the burden and strain unwanted children have on resources. Who's going to take care of them? Pay for food? Health care? Education?
So I always take it with a grain of salt when I hear all these Christians complain about abortions, but have never taken the time to educate themselves with the facts. It's repulsive, especially when you consider that the bible doesn't even address abortion. You would think that something so important would have been covered somewhere, instead of say, what kind of fabric you can wear or type of meat you should eat. It's absurd.

BTW, my personal opinion is that abortion of a fetus beyond ten weeks is immoral. However, I have zero right or obligation to enforce my opinion on another human's right to choose what decide they elect to do with their own body. Nor is it my place to judge their actions.

Elioenai26 said:

My brothers and sisters, be not alarmed by the callous and apathetic words that are being uttered by those people here who see life as nothing more than an accidental collocation of atoms.

Be not alarmed when people are not moved by these heartrending tales of murder and infanticide.

People who maintain that we are simply a little higher on the evolutinal ladder than monkeys see these horrendous accounts as no different than the account of the death of a primate at a zoo.

Atheism and any other philosophy that denies that humans are precious and intrinsically valuble compels their adherents to cavalierly say: "so what?"

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Thanks for putting words in my mouth because I'm an atheist. Apparently I'm pro infanticide and murder. Who knew?! (I sure didn't.) Apparently lots of OB/Gyns are murderers too!

LifeToTheFullest! said:

BTW, my personal opion is that abortion of a fetus beyond ten weeks is immoral. However, I have zero right or obligation to enforce my opinion on another human's right to choose what decide to do with their own body.

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I agree with this as well. I don't have any issue with a first trimester abortion (mainly because organs have not developed), but once you're in the fetal period I drop my support. But it's not really my call, because I'm not the one with the uterus.

Elioenai26 said:

My brothers and sisters, be not alarmed by the callous and apathetic words that are being uttered by those people here who see life as nothing more than an accidental collocation of atoms.

Be not alarmed when people are not moved by these heartrending tales of murder and infanticide.

People who maintain that we are simply a little higher on the evolutinal ladder than monkeys see these horrendous accounts as no different than the account of the death of a primate at a zoo.

Atheism and any other philosophy that denies that humans are precious and intrinsically valuble compels their adherents to cavalierly say: "so what?"

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Atheism is not a philosphy.

As for cavalier attitudes toward aborting the unborn, your god takes the cake.

http://gregspaul.webs.com/Philosophy&Theology.pdf

LifeToTheFullest! said:

Most of these "pro-lifers" are what I consider to be 'arm chair christians.' They know all the polemic rhetoric, but really haven't taken the time to consider the burden and strain unwanted children have on resources.

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I would add that they lack the courage of their alleged convictions.

If one believes that abortion is the moral equivalent of infanticide, or just another form of it, and they are arguing against it rather then throwing them selves into the works to stop the slaughter I cannot take them seriously. If you know that infanticide is happening a short car ride from where you are sitting are you are arguing with me about the subject you either have not thought out the implication of what you believe or you are a moral coward.

Justifying murder on the basis of assumption is indicative of the ramifications of adhereing to a naturalistc worldview.

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I see you can't really counter my argument so you go in with the "you're justifying murder" which also indicates the blindness the typical pro lifer displays when one brings up the broken adoption system. But that's fine, continue to be in denial and think there are millions of parents lined to up to adopt these children and not actually do anything for them.

Most of these "pro-lifers" are what I consider to be 'arm chair christians.' They know all the polemic rhetoric, but really haven't taken the time to consider the burden and strain unwanted children have on resources. Who's going to take care of them? Pay for food? Health care? Education?

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Of course most of them don't think about these things. I've seen these issues firsthand. Even though states are actually willing to give families money to take in these kids because so many of them need homes, some don't actually pay these parents a decent reimbursement rate for taking these children in. It's typical pro life blindness and denial. There aren't millions of parents waiting to adopt these numerous children.

PassionFruit said:

I'm going to come out of lurkdom and address this.

You pro lifers like to scream about how adoption is a better alternative. But fail to recognize how broken the adoption and foster care system is. I work in social services and many children are still waiting to be adopted. It's really awful for kids when they have a mental or physical disability, especially once they're older. Many parents aren't looking to adopt older nor disabled children, they want babies. But if that baby is not chosen, they're going to have to wait, Not to mention the hierarchy that's involved when parents are wanting to adopt. But that's another issue altogether. You cite how the child found a family? Well that's great, but guess what? That story is more of an exception. If a child is "fortunate" enough to be adopted, there's the likelihood of being placed in a horrible foster family where the child will face abuse. Or being shuffled around from home to home. The chances of being placed in a good home are very slim.

You also make it seem like adoption is a much easier decision. Giving your child up can be just as difficult as making the choice to terminate a pregnancy. So please, kindly stop touting adoption as an alternative when you won't even recognize the problems with the adoption system.

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Just because the adoption system is "broken" is not an excuse to kill an innocent Human Being. We should be talking about fixing the adoption system rather than coming up with reasons to kill the unborn.

Giving up a child for adoption my be difficult but at least it saves a Human life.

TomZzyzx said:

Just because the adoption system is "broken" is not an excuse to kill an innocent Human Being. We should be talking about fixing the adoption system rather than coming up with reasons to kill the unborn.

Giving up a child for adoption my be difficult but at least it saves a Human life.

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Do you really believe this is about "coming up with reasons to kill the unborn?"

And if you have such a problem with abortion, what have you personally done to provide a viable alternative?

TomZzyzx said:

Just because the adoption system is "broken" is not an excuse to kill an innocent Human Being. We should be talking about fixing the adoption system rather than coming up with reasons to kill the unborn.

Giving up a child for adoption my be difficult but at least it saves a Human life.

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So why aren't you pro lifers talking about fixing the system? My problem is when you say "choose adoption!" as being the best alternative but don't want to acknowledge the problems with it. Where are these millions of parents who are wanting to adopt these children?

You talk of saving a human life, that's another thing you pro lifers fail to acknowledge, you don't want to consider the quality of life the child may have. You don't like the idea of abortion, but don't want to promote policies that prevent women from having unwanted to pregnancies (aside from the judgmental "keep your legs closed" which has proven to be ineffective) but then say adoption is better without actually considering the cons of this decision. If you're going to tout adoption as a solution then you need to wise up about the realities of it.

I've asked this question before, and I will ask it here. If pro-life Christians really and truly believe that innocent babies are being murdered everyday, why don't they act like it? They liken abortion to a holocaust. Well, for most of them an "Auschwitz" is probably operating in their town right now. Why aren't they doing something about it? I mean, other than complaining about it on an internet website?

Their actions just don't seem to match up to their rhetoric.