What are your thoughts on the book of Enoch ?

DennisTate said:

I personally have fasted on Yom Kippur since the late 1970's so of course the hidden meaning in the annual Jewish festivals concerns me a little more than it would somebody who did not do this!

I strongly suspect that the chapter in the Book of Enoch regarding the request of Azazel and the Wathers of Enoch, to whatever degree is accurate, may give us a major clue as to some hidden meaning in Yom Kippur and how it works out in the end of days?????!!!!!


(The Book of Enoch chapter 13)

Leviticus 16:10 RSV:


Basically, I strongly strongly suspect that Azazel is a metaphorical General Abner sort of fallen angel who in the past had the beginning of wisdom....he really really feared the God of Abraham!!!!

In the future when Yom Kippur is fulfilled (if it has not been fulfilled already)....Azazel will probably be like a General Abner who will lead the repentant fallen angels back to obedience to Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua and the kingdom of Lucifer/Satan will be divided.....and will soon fall!!!!!!!

Just a theory....I could be wrong?????!!!!

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Considering that Yah assigned all sin to Azazel, you think he will be forgiven? In Enoch, Yah states that He will not forgive them.

What I think is funny is if you break Azazel down into the pale-hebrew word picture. It means 'strong weapon weapon strong authority' while Azazel taught weapons and killing strokes to men while teaching cosmetics to women, also a weapon to use against men.

Mentions of other books in the Bible and the Book of Life

I hope I haven't left any out. If so, if someone points others out that aren't already mentioned, I'll add it to the list. I went ahead and listed the kings here in the books of chronicles of the kings of Israel and Judah, in case someone appreciates the studiousness of this (which I do).

…David…the use of the bow:… it is written in the book of Jasher -- 2 Sam 1:17-18

the acts of Solomon … in the book of the acts of Solomon -- 1 Kings 11:41

the acts of Jeroboam… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 1 Kings 14:19

the acts of Rehoboam… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 1 Kings 14:29
the acts of Rehoboam… in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies --
2 Chron 12:15

the acts of Abijam… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 1 Kings 15:7

the acts of Asa… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 1 Kings 15:23
the acts of Asa… in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel -- 2 Chron 16:11

the acts of Joram... in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 2 Kings 8:23

the acts of Joash… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 2 Kings 12:19
the acts of Joash… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 2 Kings 13:12

…Joash…concerning his sons… written in the story of the book of the kings -- 2 Chron 24:24-27

the acts of Amaziah… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 2 Kings 14:18
the acts of Amaziah… in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel -- 2 Chron 25:26

the acts of Hezekiah… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 2 Kings 20:20-20
the acts of Hezekiah… in the vision of Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, and in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel -- 2 Chron 32:32

the acts of Manasseh… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 2 Kings 21:17
the acts of Manasseh…and the words of the seers that spake to him… in the book of the kings of Israel --
2 Chron 33:18

the acts of Amon… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 2 Kings 21:25

the acts of Josiah… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 2 Kings 23:28
the acts of Josiah… in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah -- 2 Chron 35:26-27

the acts of Jehoiakim… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 2 Kings 24:5
the acts of Jehoiakim… in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah -- 2 Chron 36:8

the acts of Nadab… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 1 Kings 15:31

the acts of Baasha… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 1 Kings 16:5

the acts of Elah… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 1 Kings 16:14

the acts of Zimri… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 1 Kings 16:20

the acts of Omri… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 1 Kings 16:27

the acts of Ahab… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 1 Kings 22:39

the acts of Jehoshaphat… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 1 Kings 22:45
the acts of Jehoshaphat…in the book of Jehu the son of Hanani…mentioned in the book of the kings of Israel.
2 Chron 20:34

the acts of Ahaziah… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 2 Kings 1:18

the acts of Jehoahaz… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 2 Kings 13:8

the acts of Jehoash… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 2 Kings 14:15

the acts of Jeroboam… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 2 Kings 14:28

the acts of Azariah… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 2 Kings 15:6

the acts of Zachariah… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 2 Kings 15:11

the acts of Shallum… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 2 Kings 15:15

the acts of Menahem… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 2 Kings 15:21

the acts of Pekahiah… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 2 Kings 15:26

the acts of Pekah… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel -- 2 Kings 15:31

the acts of Jotham…. in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 2 Kings 15:36
the acts of Jotham… in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah -- 2 Chron 27:7

the acts of Ahaz… in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah -- 2 Kings 16:19
…his acts and of all his ways…Ahaz… -- 2 Chron 28:26-27

…all Israel…reckoned by genealogies…in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah -- 1 Chron 9:1

the acts of David… in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer… -- 1 Chron 29:29-30

the acts of Solomon… in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer…
2 Chron 9:29

…in the law in the book of Moses… -- 2 Chron 25:4 (mentioned numerous times)

The sons of Levi…in the book of the chronicles… -- Neh 12:23

“Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the Lord, What he did in the Red sea, and in the brooks of Arnon, And at the stream of the brooks that goeth down to the dwelling of Ar, and lieth upon the border of Moab.”
Num 21:14-15

“Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah,first and last, did Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, write.”
2 Chron 26:22

“A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”
Dan 7:10


… in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart -- Psalms 40:7-8

…the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous -- Psalms 69:28

…in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them -- Psalms 139:16

“Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire: and there were added besides unto them many like words.
Jer 36:32

“And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.
Ezek 2:9-10

“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Dan 12:1-4

“Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Mal 3:16-18

“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:30-31

“And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
Phil 4:3

“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:5

“And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 5:3-10

“And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Rev 10:8-11

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:7-10

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:8

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:11-15

“And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 21:27

“Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:9-10

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:18-19

“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jude 1:14-15

And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
Col 4:16

Therefore, you can't take ALL of Enoch as absolute scripture because things have been added to the original. Only the original would be counted scripture. You have to have a good sense of discernment to determine what parts are anointed.

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We do not know for certain that any of the so called “Book of Enoch” is from the original text. From what I have read about this, there are different versions of the Book of Enoch that are claimed to be originals. Anyone could take what was written in the Bible and include that with their book.

It is apparent through scripture that certain books are mentioned that contain inspired truths. God in His wisdom has chosen not to include them in the canon of scripture. While intellectual curiosity may cause us to read these or “lost books of the Bible”, it may not be wise to give them much thought. Our meditation is to be in the Word and that which is spoken under the anointing. The Lord would have spoken of this book if the church were to avail itself of the “wisdom” it supposedly contains.

I have found that some who give great credence to the Book of Enoch can be very judgmental, coming down hard on those who sin in favor of judgment. Great grace is rather the focus of the Lord and His church. Focusing on be the wrath of God in an age of grace, seems very questionable.

Also, God has not chosen to reveal to His church at large, the revelation of the angelic kingdom said to be here before Adamic times. Angels cannot repent by the way, and have Hell reserved for them.

Many deceivers are in the world, and were in the world in the early years of the church. The same deceiving spirits at work today in the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Many references in the Book of Mormon are directly “borrowed” from the Bible. They take a little truth and mix in some bondage.

You who are sensitive to oppressions, have you ever read a little from the Book of Mormon and had that slight headache, kind of mashed up feeling? This is an oppression which accompanies such “revelation”. Spirits try to deceive and minister an obvious bondage. I have visited website of those who propagate the Book of Enoch and left with that same headache. I’ve emailed them about the curse their site was putting out and they told me I was both ignorant, unspiritual, and crazy. They have no discernment and have bought into a lie.

There are many prophecies today that contain great truth. They are not to be held on the same level as scripture, because they contain the hand of man within them. People prophesy from within the store that is in them. The very prophets, or those who prophesy are all subject to influence by deceiving spirits. The question of discernment is very relevant. We take that which ministers edification and after trying the spirits, hold fast to that which is good.

One solid foundation we have are the holy scriptures. Surely God’s hand was in the assembly of the books. Although it changed since the 1600s (removing the apocraphya), surely God had everything to do with a book representing Him, with billions of copies.

In this day and time, the Holy Spirit has increased knowledge (even as the world’s knowledge has increased). We know of His mind from many apostles and prophets. These all point to Jesus and the work He is doing in each one of us. How we can rely on the Spirit of God to discern truth, and the importance of walking closely to the Lord, hearing the voice of the Shepherd. The Lord has impressed upon the spiritual church, of the importance of giving heed to His Word, and taking it as the final authority.

The Holy Spirit does reveal mysteries, but He tends to focus on the foundational precepts of God first, knowing Him (which is our covenant inheritance), and growing up into all things in Christ.

The issue of “endless geneologies” and things that minister questions (because they are outside of our authoritative revelation), rather than godly edifying which is in faith.

As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1 Tim 1:3-4

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
1 Tim 6:20-21

Alive_Again said:

We do not know for certain that any of the so called “Book of Enoch” is from the original text.

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But the Holy Spirit does know. All you have to do is listen to the Holy Spirit.

If you don't have that ability, ask someone who does!

Alive_Again said:

It is apparent through scripture that certain books are mentioned that contain inspired truths. God in His wisdom has chosen not to include them in the canon of scripture.

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LOL, Yah didn't make the canon! Man did! Different groups contest what is and is not Canon.

The canon is just a collection of books that a group has gotten together and agreed are all anointed. That does NOT imply that they are ALL of the anointed works and that Yah directed their efforts.

Are you suggesting that Yah directed what books were in the septuigent and a differing set for the Catholic canon and yet another set for the protestant canon? That is ridiculous. Man has determined what books to add or remove.

Enoch is and always has been part of the Ethiopian canon.

The bible or canon is just a library collection of separate books bound together that a group of men have agreed upon as being anointed. That is all.

Sola Scriptora is a Catholic doctrine that basically the RCC had the right to dictate to the masses what was and was not scripture so they could control doctrine to the masses. You can never be a true bible scholar if you limit yourself ONLY to the canon because so many references have to be researched outside of the canon to make sense. For example if you don't know that the 'eye of the needle' was a gate in the walls of Jerusalem, you draw the wrong conclusion about a rich man getting into heaven.

The canon is everything needed for 'basic understanding' for salvation. It does NOT present all the information to understand the mysteries. If you only want to stick with milk, by all means use just the canon. Idolizing the canon is error!

LOL, Yah didn't make the canon! Man did! Different groups contest what is and is not Canon.

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The hand of man actually wrote the Bible. God has been saying things in the King James and calling it "My Word". That's pretty convincing. Sure the Catholics had theirs and even the original King James had the apocrpha. Somehow between then and now, we have God calling the Bible "My Word". "My book". It's not a laughing matter at all.

The canon is just a collection of books that a group has gotten together and agreed are all anointed. That does NOT imply that they are ALL of the anointed works and that Yah directed their efforts.

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He had something to do with it if He's calling it "My Word".

Enoch is and always has been part of the Ethiopian canon.

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Read what you may, but you're not exactly easy to be entreated.

But the Holy Spirit does know. All you have to do is listen to the Holy Spirit.
If you don't have that ability, ask someone who does!

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A tad bit offensive too.

Sola Scriptora is a Catholic doctrine that basically the RCC had the right to dictate to the masses what was and was not scripture so they could control doctrine to the masses.

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I'm talking about God influencing what is in the Bible. Of course it has changed and God never changes. The admonition I was giving was in going outside what God has been calling "My Word". I see it as a clear and present danger. If God calls the current book "My Word" then when people point outside of that, I tend to tell the sheep to be careful.

The canon is everything needed for 'basic understanding' for salvation. It does NOT present all the information to understand the mysteries. If you only want to stick with milk, by all means use just the canon. Idolizing the canon is error!

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I assume you're calling the 66 books of the Bible "milk". Small talk for "God's Word". Milk is really foundational principles about repentance and faith, salvation, and God's love for those just learning about God. The meat of the Word as itself gives description, is for those able to discern good and evil. Those who exercise their spiritual senses. I don't idolize the canon.

Some of the greatest experiences I have known have come from God who confirms the absolute truth of His Word (the Bible). Their are mysteries, but if we use wisdom in our understanding of them and receive understanding from Him, then we don't need to rely on questionable texts. It is obvious from reading the book that it lacks the quality of scripture. While their may be some truth in it, what it lacks is more than enough reason to shy away from such a defense of that which God has not said "My Word" about.

Why does everyone I speak to about this book try and call the reliance on the canon of scripture as "milk". It denigrates the importance of it and it contains everything we need for instruction in righteousness and that the man of God might be well equipped to show himself approved.

God defends His own stuff, so their is no reason to get touchy about it. If it is His, He'll defend it and its truth will stand. If it is on questionable ground, then it may be a bit of shaking going on with the comparison of the actual Word that is unsettling.

Alive_Again said:

The hand of man actually wrote the Bible. God has been saying things in the King James and calling it "My Word". That's pretty convincing. Sure the Catholics had theirs and even the original King James had the apocrpha. Somehow between then and now, we have God calling the Bible "My Word". "My book". It's not a laughing matter at all.

He had something to do with it if He's calling it "My Word".

Read what you may, but you're not exactly easy to be entreated.

A tad bit offensive too.

I'm talking about God influencing what is in the Bible. Of course it has changed and God never changes. The admonition I was giving was in going outside what God has been calling "My Word". I see it as a clear and present danger. If God calls the current book "My Word" then when people point outside of that, I tend to tell the sheep to be careful.

I assume you're calling the 66 books of the Bible "milk". Small talk for "God's Word". Milk is really foundational principles about repentance and faith, salvation, and God's love for those just learning about God. The meat of the Word as itself gives description, is for those able to discern good and evil. Those who exercise their spiritual senses. I don't idolize the canon.

Some of the greatest experiences I have known have come from God who confirms the absolute truth of His Word (the Bible). Their are mysteries, but if we use wisdom in our understanding of them and receive understanding from Him, then we don't need to rely on questionable texts. It is obvious from reading the book that it lacks the quality of scripture. While their may be some truth in it, what it lacks is more than enough reason to shy away from such a defense of that which God has not said "My Word" about.

Why does everyone I speak to about this book try and call the reliance on the canon of scripture as "milk". It denigrates the importance of it and it contains everything we need for instruction in righteousness and that the man of God might be well equipped to show himself approved.

God defends His own stuff, so their is no reason to get touchy about it. If it is His, He'll defend it and its truth will stand. If it is on questionable ground, then it may be a bit of shaking going on with the comparison of the actual Word that is unsettling.

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ANY prophetic utterance is HIS WORD. It isn't limited to the canon. You can find TRUTH in many sources. You could have the Holy Spirit confirm truth out of reading War and Peace. Truth is not limited to the canon. Granted if something directly contradicts the canon, either the translation, your understanding it in error or the other can not be truth. My point is, the canon does not contain ALL truth and all other source are not all error or can't be anointed!

If you want to limit yourself ONLY to the king James version of the current canon, that is your option. Personally I get a lot more our of the original Hebrew. There is more meaning presented that way instead of being constrained to the translators preconceptions and bias. There is yet another layer of meaning if you go back to the Paleo-hebrew word pictures for the meanings of those words. There are plenty of examples of where you HAVE to go outside the canon to understand things presented in the canon.

We all go outside the canon to gain additional truth whether it is using a Strongs to look up definition or the writings of early church fathers or just listening to a sermon of someone explaining what they get out of a passage. If you want to isolate yourself with only the canon that is fine, but don't expect to get very far on your own.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The reference to 'this book' is the BOOK of Revelation, not the canon! The bible is not a book. It is a library collection of books. NO scripture can be taken as pertaining to the canon. Every reference to 'scripture' in the new testament is talking about what we consider the Old Testament.

Yeshua even referenced a work that is not in the old testament canon. He referenced the story out of the 'Testament of Solomon' when the Pharisees accused him of casting out demons by Baal-zebub, prince of demons. That is NOT from the Old Testament but out of the Testament of Solomon and Yeshua answered 'one greater then Solomon stands before you'. Yet the 'Testament of Solomon' is not in the canon but if you don't know the contents of that book, the references go right over your head. The testament of Solomon was about Solomon's dealing with demons that tried to hinder the building of the temple.

What is even worse then idolizing the canon is idolizing a specific translation of the canon like the King James. The KJV is full of errors.

Here is a good example I like to use:
Isa 57:9 And you went to the king with ointment, and did increase your perfumes, and did send your messengers far off, and did debase yourself even to hell.

Here king is incorrectly used. It should be Molech, the pagan deity whose title is 'king' but is vowel pointed as 'shameful king'. The passage is talking about the Baalim worship in the Grove and the valley below it, the valley of Hinnom where the children were passed through the fires to Molech. It even references the 'killing of the children' earlier in the passage. It calls offering sacrifices to Molech and doing ritual witchcraft, ie 'send your messengers far off' as 'debasing thyself to hell'. King and Molech are both spelled 'MLK' in Hebrew. It has to be taken from the context to determine the correct translation. If the translators don't know what the passage is about, it is easy to mis-translate.

ANY prophetic utterance is HIS WORD. It isn't limited to the canon.

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It's true that He still speaks today. We also have the Spirit of God quickening statements people make to reveal truth to US in this present hour. It might come from a line by Big Bird on Sesame Street. (I hope not, but that's ok too!)

Granted if something directly contradicts the canon, either the translation, your understanding it in error or the other can not be truth. My point is, the canon does not contain ALL truth and all other source are not all error or i't be anointed!

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This is why the canon is important. It is recognized truth confirmed by the Holy Spirit. Nothing can contradict it. We have to compare everthing else to it, not the other way around, or not all of it readily embraced.

If you want to limit yourself ONLY to the king James version of the current canon, that is your option. Personally I get a lot more our of the original Hebrew.

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I don't. I primarily use the KJV. Yes, word studies in the Greek and Hebrew can be illuminating. Both languages are far more descriptive than English.

There is more meaning presented that way instead of being constrained to the translators preconceptions and bias.

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Certainly evident in many modern translations, particularly the Wescott Hort versions.

There are plenty of examples of where you HAVE to go outside the canon to understand things presented in the canon.

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We understand through cultural evidence more of certain passages. We don't have to go "outside", they are just helps.

If you want to isolate yourself with only the canon that is fine, but don't expect to get very far on your own.

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There is more in the canon than can be learned in one lifetime. Not get very far? The early church didn't even have the NT canon, and they prospered well. They no doubt had a stronger evidence of the gifts than we do.

Every reference to 'scripture' in the new testament is talking about what we consider the Old Testament.

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That's not true. Peter equates Paul's writings as being scripture in the passage that refers to people twisting the meanings.

Yeshua even referenced a work that is not in the old testament canon.

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There are books that contain truth and accounts and are no doubt valuable. I'm sure we'll see them in Heaven. They are not scripture though, and not on the same level. They do not have the same regard.

...if you don't know the contents of that book, the references go right over your head.

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If we were meant to have certain books of which we do not, we would surely have them. I don't accept the fact that certain "men of old" in an age where the enemy through the gnostics were writing 'scripture" and mentioning people or events or books spoken of in the Bible. We don't have the Holy Spirit today leading the church at large into them and if they were on the same level as scripture, we surely would be doing so.

What is even worse then idolizing the canon is idolizing a specific translation of the canon like the King James. The KJV is full of errors.

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Who's idolizing anything? I'm talking about the Word of God. The KJV translates of the Holy Spirit "It" rather than "He" in a passage. We understand through the Holy Spirit and by way of every other passage that the Holy Spirit is a "He". In the instances where translations are imperfect, the Holy Spirit can enlighten the seeker, if he's willing to listen and be corrected (not to mention patient). We know in our spirits often times when something doesn't seem to be preached right. There is a fuller understanding, and we all seem to have these areas.

So back to the original point I was making... I do not believe it is safe to embrace the Book of Enoch just because the passage in the Bible happens to be in the book going around as the "Book of Enoch". From what I've seen, it in no way resembles scripture or any of the qualities of scripture. Neither do the other books in the apocrypha. I do not hear the Holy Spirit in them, neither do I see Him leading the church at large into it. MANY people are crying out for more of the knowledge of God and if it were just sitting on the shelves somewhere, God would have led the spiritual powerhouses who know Him there and they would be leading us there as well.

It's a warning for the innocent. Be wise as serpents and do not just embrace everything because it's old and has a familiar name. Reading it doesn't have the fruits of reading scripture. It might contain some accurate information in it, possibly even from devils. They've been around a long time and know how to mix factual truth and error and the result is bondage. If I were to hear some real spiritual fruit from the people advocating it, it might help "sell it", but I typically hear people who are offensive, judgmental, and condescending (no offense, but if you want to go back to see it, I'll show you), and it all says "WARNING" on it.

Do as you please though and for everyone else, just consider the fruits when you read these books and judge for yourself.

Alive_Again said:

We do not know for certain that any of the so called &#8220;Book of Enoch&#8221; is from the original text. From what I have read about this, there are different versions of the Book of Enoch that are claimed to be originals. Anyone could take what was written in the Bible and include that with their book.<snip>

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It is the claim of this poster that the copies of the Book of Enoch which survive have become so corrupt over time, that we cannot know the contents of the original book. I do not think that is an accurate portrayal.

The English translation of Enoch&#8217;s book was translated then revised by Robert Henry Charles in 1912. It is mainly based upon texts in Geez, a Semitic language of Ethiopia. Over the past 2,000-years, these Ethiopic texts probably followed a transmission path something like this:

Aramaic > Greek > Geez > English

The text of Enoch which was the basis for the quote from it in the New Testament Epistle of Jude, followed a transmission path like this:

Aramaic > Greek > English

How careful were the Ethiopian translators and copyists with the text of Enoch over the past 2,000 years? You be the judge. The following are both examples:


Enoch 1:9 (Charles): Behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to destroy all the ungodly: and to convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

Jude 1:14-15 (ESV): Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints*, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Two different transmission routes which diverged more than 1,500-years ago and yet the resultant translations into English are remarkably close to one another. That's the sort of variation we see with the texts of the books of the Bible; the Ethiopic texts which we have today merit a high degree of reliability. After Charles' day, a truly ancient copy of the text of Enoch 1:9 was found in Aramaic in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The parchment upon which this verse survives has been dated to the 3rd century B.C. and is virtually more ancient than most other surviving texts of the books of the Bible.

These facts which have come to the fore over the past 50 or so years, debunk the old theory put forth by some scholars in an earlier era, that the entire Ethiopic Book of Enoch was a forgery written to provide a background for the one verse in Jude. Amazingly, some sites on the internet, still perpetuate this disproven view.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* The term &#8220;holy ones&#8221;, is synonymous with &#8220;saints&#8221;. The Greek word "hagios" may be translated "holy one" or "saint" with equal accuracy.

Alive_Again said:

<snip>It is apparent through scripture that certain books are mentioned that contain inspired truths. God in His wisdom has chosen not to include them in the canon of scripture.<snip>

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I have a question.

My question is not rhetorical, I truly am interested in your answer:

To which of the five canons of Scripture which are in use in today's world are you referring?

Alive_Again said:

The hand of man actually wrote the Bible. God has been saying things in the King James and calling it "My Word". That's pretty convincing. Sure the Catholics had theirs and even the original King James had the apocrpha. Somehow between then and now, we have God calling the Bible "My Word". "My book". It's not a laughing matter at all.<snip>

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Do you know why and by what authority this "apocrypha" you mention was removed from your KJV?

SummaScriptura said:

Do you know why and by what authority this "apocrypha" you mention was removed from your KJV?

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Few people do that push the Cannon. If it isn't in their KJV, it must not be anointed. That was the stand of the bible college I attended. Needless to say, I didn't last but through the 1st year and was expelled twice. LOL

Yahu said:

Few people do that push the Cannon. If it isn't in their KJV, it must not be anointed. That was the stand of the bible college I attended. Needless to say, I didn't last but through the 1st year and was expelled twice. LOL

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Wow!

You sound a lot like me Yahu!

I guess it is a good thing that I didn't actually make it to Bible college!

Out of the many Spirit written books, and their are many, the Lord never once led me or so many Spirit filled believers to lay hold of the apocrypha as though it were truth. People read through most of these for curiosity. You never really hear any quotations from these books in Spirit filled churches and if their was overcoming power in them, you can be sure they would be.

I'm sure the Lord had everything to do with taking out the apocrypha from the KJV. Read it at your own risk. It is very obvious those books are not on the standard of the Word.

Well Jude did quote a verse in his short epistle from the Book of Enoch and so I would say there is some weight to it... I heard just recently that for a few centuries after the Lord had ascended that the book of Enoch was read regularly in church services.

Alive_Again said:

Out of the many Spirit written books, and their are many, the Lord never once led me or so many Spirit filled believers to lay hold of the apocrypha as though it were truth. People read through most of these for curiosity. You never really hear any quotations from these books in Spirit filled churches and if their was overcoming power in them, you can be sure they would be.

I'm sure the Lord had everything to do with taking out the apocrypha from the KJV. Read it at your own risk. It is very obvious those books are not on the standard of the Word.

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You are truly phenomenal!

For the things you assert with such confidence to be valid, it would mean Alive_Again:

1. Has moment-to-moment knowledge of every church which either is or which becomes Spirit-filled.
2. Has moment-to-moment knowledge of every church which either is not or which becomes un-Spirit-filled.
3. Is present in each of those churches every time they meet in order to listen in on which books they are quoting from

Yes, you truly are phenomenal!

Are you that power of God that is called "great"?

onlybygrace84 said:

Well Jude did quote a verse in his short epistle from the Book of Enoch and so I would say there is some weight to it... I heard just recently that for a few centuries after the Lord had ascended that the book of Enoch was read regularly in church services.

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I agree!

I heard that it was in use as part of canon for five centuries until it was replaced by the Book of Revelation!

Alive_Again said:

Out of the many Spirit written books, and their are many, the Lord never once led me or so many Spirit filled believers to lay hold of the apocrypha as though it were truth. People read through most of these for curiosity. You never really hear any quotations from these books in Spirit filled churches and if their was overcoming power in them, you can be sure they would be.

I'm sure the Lord had everything to do with taking out the apocrypha from the KJV. Read it at your own risk. It is very obvious those books are not on the standard of the Word.

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The account of the Patriarch Joseph being given seventy languages in one night would certainly be an exception to this rule:



Book of Jasher 49

And on that night the Lord sent one of his ministering angels, and he came into the land of Egypt unto Joseph, and the angel of the Lord stood over Joseph, and behold Joseph was lying in the bed at night in his master's house in the dungeon, for his master had put him back into the dungeon on account of his wife.
And the angel roused him from his sleep, and Joseph rose up and stood upon his legs, and behold the angel of the Lord was standing opposite to him; and the angel of the Lord spoke with Joseph, and he taught him all the languages of man in that night, and he called his name Jehoseph.
And the angel of the Lord went from him, and Joseph returned and lay upon his bed, and Joseph was astonished at the vision which he saw.

........And the king came forth and ascended the steps of the throne, and Joseph spoke unto the king in all languages, and Joseph went up to him and spoke unto the king until he arrived before the king in the seventieth step, and he sat before the king.

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DennisTate said:

I agree!

I heard that it was in use as part of canon for five centuries until it was replaced by the Book of Revelation!

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I wonder what is the primary source for this information? I only know of one person who makes this claim in writing, John Ladd. I corresponded with him to tell me the historical source for this and he could not do so.

Just curious, was your source John Ladd?

Here is what I think we can say definitely... the Book of Enoch was circulating among Christians for four centuries. It had its detractors and its fans. Some, not all, even called it inspired Scripture. By the end of the fourth century it had fallen into disrepute among powerful ecclesiastics who were influenced by Greek philosophy which viewed spirit and flesh as antithetical. So the idea that angels could fall into carnal sin was rejected. The book slid into ignominy within Eastern and Western Christendom for more than 1,000 years being apparently lost. All the while, Ethiopian Christian-Jews missed the memo and kept preserving the book as part of their Bible, being viewed there as inspired Scripture.

The whole dialectic that goes "there was a fight over which Apocalypse to include, Enoch or Revelation", seems to be an imagined reality.

1. Has moment-to-moment knowledge of every church which either is or which becomes Spirit-filled.
2. Has moment-to-moment knowledge of every church which either is not or which becomes un-Spirit-filled.
3. Is present in each of those churches every time they meet in order to listen in on which books they are quoting from

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I figured this would be challenged, and a little late in doing so...

No, it doesn't mean any of that at all. There is a good size segment of the Spirit filled church that absolutely hungers for the things of God. Great signs and wonders and wondrous fruits of the Spirit are demonstrated. It doesn't mean everyone has arrived, but it does mean that when God gives a revelation through a new book, that it is typically endorsed by this community. What happens after that is that it is quoted and overcoming power is released by the Holy Spirit to confirm the Word. That is not been happening at all, and these books have been around for a LONG time, and that Holy Spirit hungry church is noticeably absent about mentioning these things.

Rather the Lord has been warning His church about people seeking stuff from sources not found in His Word. Obviously you feel it is part of the Word, but IMHO, the fruits do not bear that out.

And the angel roused him from his sleep, and Joseph rose up and stood upon his legs, and behold the angel of the Lord was standing opposite to him; and the angel of the Lord spoke with Joseph, and he taught him all the languages of man in that night, and he called his name Jehoseph.

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Anyone care to venture why Joseph needs to know ALL the known languages to talk to Pharaoh? That's not very believable and we aren't even given a purpose. To be honest, it's very weak. Furthermore, when one's name is changed in the Bible, it is a significant event. One that does not carry through in Genesis.