Joseph Prince interpretation of 1 John 1:9

Alive_Again said:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 John 1:7

You have to ask yourself honestly. Can an unbeliever walk in the light? If not, then the text is written to Christians, who need to cleanse when they walk in darkness/sin.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:9-10

Also, in earlier discussions, the "law" we're talking about is the law of liberty, not the law of ordinances. We're still accountable for the law of liberty which is to believe and do His commandments (love). We don't get out of that.

This is why we're accountable to walk in the Spirit, because the works of the flesh come under the law.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:7-8

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:16

That's why when we walk in the Spirit, we're free from sin.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:18

We we walk in the flesh, we're under law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21

The simple truth is that if we do any of these things, we will not inherit the kingdom (unless we repent and believe).

Every believer knows in his heart if he's been guilty of any of these sins while walking in the flesh. We can't just blame it on our bodies, because we can walk in the Spirit. It does not say because it was the flesh, we're still righteous if we do them. It says that we won't inherit the kingdom. We need to be cleansed.

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You are saved by Grace through faith. Nothing of yourself. It is a gift. It has NOTHING to do with your works.

If I sin today....and I repent....I shall boast of what I did to regain my salvation and lay this scripture to naught.

Do you think I can?

You are saved by Grace through faith. Nothing of yourself. It is a gift. It has NOTHING to do with your works.

If I sin today....and I repent....I shall boast of what I did to regain my salvation and lay this scripture to naught.

Do you think I can?

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This seems to be the hardest part to convey for people who ascribe to OSAS, or something akin to that.

"Nothing of yourself" - Absolutely nothing of yourself. Jesus said without Him we can do nothing. It IS NOTHING to do with your own works.

It's all about the work of grace within you. It's the divine nature, the divine enabling, it's His works. It is impossible for us to do this on our own. It is only submittal and faith that we can do the works of Jesus.

I don't believe that doing the works of God saves us, but I do believe that it keeps us. No works get us through the door, causes us to join unto Him, give us a robe of righteousness. That is all a gift by repentance and faith.

You notice that the Word says that your robe (which is a robe of righteousness) can be spotted (Rev). It means you have it on, but it is not in the right condition. That same letter states that those who are unspotted are worthy to walk with Him in white.

Since we're going to be judged by our works (I assume you will not deny this), then they must be His works, because our works are dead without Him.

When you read the scripture about being judged for our works, look at what our works are. It is not just wood, hay, and stubble to be dismissed. It might be that, but as we must guard our hearts, it can also be those thing that bring the wrath of God. The children of disobedience aren't just the ones that aren't born again. It is the ones who refuse to obey. They harden and cannot bear good fruit.

I do believe their is great mercy for those who want to walk in Him and struggle. I don't think He's waiting to hit the eject button, and like many places in our walks, we turn to Him for forgiveness and I believe He desires for us to want and receive that. But many live "of the world" as an enemy of God. They profess that they know Him, but their works deny Him.

As one who backslid (an extreme case), I know that it is VERY serious to ignore the dealings of the Holy Spirit. Our very lives depend on listening and doing. Our doings don't give us that robe, but walking in the light will keep your robe.

Look at the letters to the church. It speaks of judgment for things He has against it. No doubt some of this only deals with your success on this earth and some will primarily suffer in this world. Their are some who will be found naked. Their are some with a reputation for being alive and are dead. He's talking to the church. Their are some who are lukewarm and will be spewed out. Lukewarm means something like you're on board with Him, but not walking with a perfect heart, or accepting coming up short of that. We cannot count on the fact that we'll repent before we die. Many will, but we must have Godly fear and take our heart condition seriously.

So, our works will NOT get us to Heaven, but they WILL keep us because sin spots us and only the blood will cleanse us. Only the blood will keep us by walking in the light.

Alive_Again said:

"Nothing of yourself" - Absolutely nothing of yourself. Jesus said without Him we can do nothing. It IS NOTHING to do with your own works.

It's all about the work of grace within you. It's the divine nature, the divine enabling, it's His works. It is impossible for us to do this on our own. It is only submittal and faith that we can do the works of Jesus.

I don't believe that doing the works of God saves us, but I do believe that it keeps us. No works get us through the door, causes us to join unto Him, give us a robe of righteousness. That is all a gift by repentance and faith.

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All of this is wonderful and I agree (except for the keep part which I green'd, but we'll get to that by the end of my post).

Alive_Again said:

You notice that the Word says that your robe (which is a robe of righteousness) can be spotted (Rev). It means you have it on, but it is not in the right condition. That same letter states that those who are unspotted are worthy to walk with Him in white.

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First paragraph above. Let's take but one of these verses:
Here is one such verse. A defiled garment...those who chase after the flesh. Now in a "lost salvation" doctrine the ones to be saved here could be the lost or could be the backsliders.

But there is a clue. And it is in the very next verse:
What is the clue? Him, Jesus, IS ABLE to keep you from stumbling, and [He, Jesus will] present you faultless.

Hmmm. You sometimes decide to follow your flesh, which can stain your garment, but Jesus will keep you from it. He will hold you up from stumbling. He will (not you will...but He WILL) present you faultless.

He has sealed you with the Holy Spirit. He has taken responsibility over you. Does this mean your free will has been removed? God forbid. Can you chase your flesh? Yes, of course. Can you "backslide" and follow the ways of the world after being saved? Yes, you can! But Jesus has never and will never let go of a saint who is truly saved. That saint WILL NEVER stumble, for Jesus has his back. That saint's garments WILL BE presented faultless before Father God at judgement.

This is what Jesus' Blood does for us!! We cannot sin in God's eyes (1 Jn 3:9).

Now let's move to Revelation 3. Church at Sardis. This is a church that was supposed to grow in the Lord but they never knew him, except for a few.
This is like as to the church at Sardis. They are playing church. They are not committed to the Lord and many, many of them were never saved to begin with. They ACT like Christians, but their heart is far from the Lord.
This church never took root. The seeds were sown on rocky ground. The majority of this assembly, as the Lord tells us here, is dead.
But there are some who are accepted. And the others have a chace to OVERCOME...they can still get saved!! And if they do: they will be clothed in white garments.

And then as Jude tells us: Jesus "who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless...."

Alive_Again said:

Since we're going to be judged by our works (I assume you will not deny this), then they must be His works, because our works are dead without Him.

When you read the scripture about being judged for our works, look at what our works are. It is not just wood, hay, and stubble to be dismissed. It might be that, but as we must guard our hearts, it can also be those thing that bring the wrath of God. The children of disobedience aren't just the ones that aren't born again. It is the ones who refuse to obey. They harden and cannot bear good fruit.

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They "must be"?? You went extra-biblical here. No, they mustn't be. The Judgement will be for our works. There are rewards in heaven which are judged to your works. Works are NEVER salvific. Ever! Jesus took care of that. But your works lead to heavenly rewards. Much is taked about in scripture in the form of crowns that will be rewarded to the diligent: a crown of glory (or the pastor's crown) 1 Pet 5:2-4; a crown of rejoicing (1 Thes 2:19-20); an incorruptable crown (1 Cor 9:25); a crown of righteousness (2 Tim 4:7-8). And the bible speaks of rewards in heaven, treasures, mansions. And the rewards are tied to your works. But salvation is NEVER tied to your works.

You have one and only one "work" that is necessary: accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

Your last couple phrases above (I underlined) is a problem. A believer may choose to walk in the curse and into the world/flesh, but his conscious will be pricked and seared. A true believer cannot stay on that path, for the Holy Spirit has sealed him and will lead him back (yourself, I guess; a good example of this). You see once saved, you have been justified. You've been washed clean and made new. Your spirit man desires to follow God and His ordinances, not by written Law but by the commandments written on your heart. The process of sanctification has begun and you will begin to shed the world and take on more and more of His righteousness. Your desire will be to seek Him. You may wander at times, but the true believer will come back. Jesus will not lose you. And you will know the true believer by the fruit that is displayed -- yes, some while he wanders may fall rotten to the ground, but you will see the good fruit.

This is the periods that you say the man is backsliding but God has not given up (not pushed the button, as you say below). No. God will never give up. You are sealed; you are His. You are not your own any longer. You may kick and scream and cry and wander in bad directions, but He will tell you to repent, to walk this way, to follow His light, to seek God.

Alive_Again said:

I do believe their is great mercy for those who want to walk in Him and struggle. I don't think He's waiting to hit the eject button, and like many places in our walks, we turn to Him for forgiveness and I believe He desires for us to want and receive that. But many live "of the world" as an enemy of God. They profess that they know Him, but their works deny Him.

As one who backslid (an extreme case), I know that it is VERY serious to ignore the dealings of the Holy Spirit. Our very lives depend on listening and doing. Our doings don't give us that robe, but walking in the light will keep your robe.

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I think you mix the saved and unsaved simply because some verses speak of "the church." There are unsaved attending possibly every assembly.

Alive_Again said:

Look at the letters to the church. It speaks of judgment for things He has against it. No doubt some of this only deals with your success on this earth and some will primarily suffer in this world. Their are some who will be found naked. Their are some with a reputation for being alive and are dead. He's talking to the church. Their are some who are lukewarm and will be spewed out. Lukewarm means something like you're on board with Him, but not walking with a perfect heart, or accepting coming up short of that. We cannot count on the fact that we'll repent before we die. Many will, but we must have Godly fear and take our heart condition seriously.

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AA, Jesus is speaking to the seven churches (which are seven church types). And within these assemblies there are saved people and there are unsaved who are playing "church." Sardis was a reprobate church. Most there, as Jesus points out, were not saved; they were unworthy of His righteousness.

Alive_Again said:

So, our works will NOT get us to Heaven, but they WILL keep us because sin spots us and only the blood will cleanse us. Only the blood will keep us by walking in the light.

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There is no scirptural support that our works KEEP us in heaven (or saved). Works simly don't save, on either side of "born-again" status.

You are right: sin spots the robe.

God is Truth: Those born of God cannot sin. (paraphrase 1 John 3:9)

So if I can't sin, then where is the spot? Oh death/sin, where is thy sting?

And yes, only the Blood will keep us in the Light. Further: the Blood WILL keep us in the Light. (Jude v24).

AA, you are not only SAVED by GRACE, but you also MAINTAIN your relationship with God by GRACE...This also means you are HEALED by GRACE, DELIVERED by GRACE, and PROSPERED by GRACE... None of the benefits of salvation come to you based on "works" or "performance based," while "being" saved or by "maintaining" your salvation... If you could understand that, then how much more would the love and faith of God abound in your life..? Faith works by love (Gal. 5:6). If you understand how much God loves you, your faith would abound and you'd start seeing the benefits of your salvation manifest more...

What would happen if someone came into your church service drunk..? Most Christians would go up to them and start ministering God's love, mercy, and grace, saying, "Jesus loves you and died for your sin... He wants to forgive you and change your life." They would minister the Gospel to a total sinner to have a relationship with God based on His grace, not their performance... NOW, what would happen if the person became born again and came back the next week drunk again..? Those same people who initially ministered grace, forgiveness, and mercy, would turn around and say, "If you don't straighten up NOW that you're a saint, God is going to get you...Change your ways or the wrath of God will come upon you!"

AA, can you see how inconsistent that is..? While they were a sinner, God would extend grace toward them...But after they're saved, they have to straighten up or face God's wrath... This does not even make sense...your salvation is NEVER tied to works, either getting saved or MAINTAINING it...
Why can't you see this..? It will set you free from the never ending bondage you are putting yourself into for continued works to maintain your salvation...If we have to continue works to keep our salvation, then we do God a dis-service by throwing grace out the window...Now this would worry me since eveything is based on His grace...This would be a definition of falling from grace...

What I have observed that those that do believe in God's grace for their security of their salvation seem to be more confident, more kind, more forgiving and more loving, with less hangups...The others are less confident, unsure of their walk with God, guilt ridden, and always, always, wondering, "Will I make it..?"

Here is the result of your thinking... If you believe that to maintain your salvation is dependent in any way upon what you are doing and have done to continue to believe, then in times of trouble and trials, you would be in constant fear of losing your salvation...

You keep using the word of us having to constantly be cleansed by re-applying His blood...The applying of His blood is one time and the cleansing is continual as Joseph Prince puts in as a waterfall of cleansing and forgiveness, and even as we sin, the cleansing continues on...

AA, are you aware that the word "cleanse" in (1 John 1:7) is really beautiful..? In the Greek, the tense for the word "cleanse" denotes a present and continuous action, which means that from the moment you receive Christ, the blood of Jesus keeps on cleansing you... It is as if you are under a waterfall of His forgiveness as Prince says... Even when you fail, this waterfall never stops... It keeps on keeping on, cleansing you from ALL your sins and unrighteousness...

When you are constantly confessing your sins, constantly re-applying the blood, constantly needing forgiveness, will make you more sin-conscious when you need to be forgiveness conscious, and knowing that you are forgiven of all your sins, past, present and yes, future as well, will give you the power to reign over every destructive habit and live a life of victory, for such a time as this...

Greater works...
____________
Harry

I said: I don't believe that doing the works of God saves us, but I do believe that it keeps us.

All of this is wonderful and I agree.

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First paragraph above. Let's take but one of these verses:*_Jude v23_*
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
Here is one such verse. A defiled garment...those who chase after the flesh.

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We're talking about the "righteous" and this verse seems pretty far outside of that.

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

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He is able if you're willing.

...That saint's garments WILL BE presented faultless before Father God at judgement.
This is what Jesus' Blood does for us!! We cannot sin in God's eyes (1 Jn 3:9).

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The wages of sin is always death and that goes for all.

Now let's move to Revelation 3. Church at Sardis. This is a church that was supposed to grow in the Lord but they never knew him, except for a few.*_Matthew 7:20-23_*

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This was a church of which some followers were not worthy. They were part of the church.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

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There is the key. Those who practice lawlessness will depart from Him. Those who perform iniquity. They might call Him Lord, but their deeds will tell the tale and they will be judged for them.

This is like as to the church at Sardis. They are playing church. They are not committed to the Lord and many, many of them were never saved to begin with. They ACT like

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That's a big presumption. If they were part of the church, that means they were in the Body of Christ, because that is the church. Their are denominations with a reputation for being alive, or that they were revivalists, but some of those groups might not be walking in the Spirit (which is life).

You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

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They had wedding garments. They were defiled. They were of the church. Only the white unspotted ones are worthy. Only the overcomer will be clothed in white and you CAN get your name blotted OUT of the Book of Life. That's a warning to us all.

I said: *When you read the scripture about being judged for our works, look at what our works are. It is not just wood, hay, and stubble to be dismissed. *It might be that, but as we must guard our hearts, *it can also be those thing that bring the wrath of God. The children of disobedience aren't just the ones that aren't born again. *_It is the ones who refuse to obey. They harden and cannot bear good fruit_.
---End Quote---

They "must be"?? You went extra-biblical here. No, they mustn't be. The Judgement will be for our works. There are rewards in heaven which are judged to your works. Works are NEVER salvific. Ever!

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I didn't say "must be". Some of our works no doubt will be wood, hay,or stubble. Other works are shameful and those who do them and do not repent will be judged for them (the wages is death).

You may wander at times, but the true believer will come back. Jesus will not lose you.

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There are who were "true believers" in Hell right now wanting to come back out and get it right. They are wanting to warn their family members and church members.

I think you mix the saved and unsaved simply because some verses speak of "the church." There are unsaved attending possibly every assembly.

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It is speaking TO the church. Why would Paul or Jesus write to the unsaved at this church or that church?

AA, Jesus is speaking to the seven churches (which are seven church types). And within these assemblies there are saved people and there are unsaved who are playing "church." Sardis was a reprobate church. Most there, as Jesus points out, were not saved; they were unworthy of His righteousness.

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Truly their are tares in churches. But the letters address His people.

God is Truth: Those born of God cannot sin. (paraphrase 1 John 3:9)

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I think that the meaning of this verse is taken out of context. There are probably 100s of verses addressing the church or whosoever about sinning, not sinning, etc. It takes 3 witnesses to build a doctrine and that doctrine has to agree with the rest of the Word.

So if I can't sin, then where is the spot? Oh death/sin, where is thy sting?

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There's no doubt a warning not to sin for the believer in every book in the NT.

And yes, only the Blood will keep us in the Light. Further: the Blood WILL keep us in the Light. (Jude v24).

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If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood will cleanse us. "IF".

“Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
1 Cor 10:9-12

“For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.”
1 Thess 3:5

“Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear His voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known My ways. So I sware in My wrath, They shall not enter into My rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”
Heb 3:7-12

“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
Matt 18:6

Ever offended a little one since you've been saved? Many believers are guilty of this with their own children.

“To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:7-11

That seems to cover everyone because it is the camp of the obedient or the disobedient. No respect of persons means that the "saved" are just as capable of grievous sin as unbelievers.

“...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
2 Thess 1:

There are almost certainly going to be believers deny Christ in the tribulation in an attempt to save their skin. If people are given the impression, because they are "sealed", that the deal is sealed, they will have a rude awakening.

Alive_Again said:

He is able if you're willing.

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The verse doesn't say that. It says He is able. Period. Quit adding to scripture.

Alive_Again said:

The wages of sin is always death and that goes for all.

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Scripture doesn't say that. It says the wages of sin is death. It also says that those born of God cannot sin.

Alive_Again said:

This was a church of which some followers were not worthy. They were part of the church.

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There are unsaved people going to church all the time. At Sardis, according to Revelation, there were only a few who had undefiled garments.

Alive_Again said:

There is the key. Those who practice lawlessness will depart from Him. Those who perform iniquity. They might call Him Lord, but their deeds will tell the tale and they will be judged for them.

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Absolutely. And Jude v24 says that Jesus is able to keep us from stumbling (becoming one who practices lawlessness). He will present us faultless.

Alive_Again said:

That's a big presumption. If they were part of the church, that means they were in the Body of Christ, because that is the church.

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No!! There are unsaved people in the church. Does your church offer an altar call? If so, why?? (And I'm not using church as a building here. But there IS a difference between the Body and the church.)

Alive_Again said:

They had wedding garments. They were defiled. They were of the church. Only the white unspotted ones are worthy. Only the overcomer will be clothed in white and you CAN get your name blotted OUT of the Book of Life. That's a warning to us all.

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There are many who say Lord, Lord but will be told to depart from the coming wedding. They are unsaved.

Alive_Again said:

I said: *When you read the scripture about being judged for our works, look at what our works are. It is not just wood, hay, and stubble to be dismissed. *It might be that, but as we must guard our hearts, *it can also be those thing that bring the wrath of God. The children of disobedience aren't just the ones that aren't born again. *_It is the ones who refuse to obey. They harden and cannot bear good fruit_.
---End Quote---

I didn't say "must be". Some of our works no doubt will be wood, hay,or stubble. Other works are shameful and those who do them and do not repent will be judged for them (the wages is death).

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Go back one more paragraph, AA. This is what I was quoting...

You said: "Since we're going to be judged by our works (I assume you will not deny this), then they must be His works, because our works are dead without Him."

Alive_Again said:

There are who were "true believers" in Hell right now wanting to come back out and get it right. They are wanting to warn their family members and church members.

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No, this is an extra-biblical teaching from fire and brimstone pulpits. (Nothing against a fire and brimstone message now and again, but those who preach it all the time are out of balance.)

Alive_Again said:

It is speaking TO the church. Why would Paul or Jesus write to the unsaved at this church or that church?

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Jesus didn't write....(sorry ) ... um.... ok, Paul wrote towards all, even if he letter went to the leaders of the churches. The churches have saved and unsaved in their midst. The messages contain the joy of the Gospel message, which is a wonderful thing to both the saved and unsaved alike, if they will listen.

Alive_Again said:

Truly their are tares in churches. But the letters address His people.

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I'm glad to see that you know this. Yes, there are tares in churches. The letters are addressed to anyone who will respond to the Gospel message.

Alive_Again said:

I think that the meaning of this verse is taken out of context.

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Of course you do...it doesn't fit your paradigm.

Alive_Again said:

There are probably 100s of verses addressing the church or whosoever about sinning, not sinning, etc. It takes 3 witnesses to build a doctrine and that doctrine has to agree with the rest of the Word.

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Huh? Where did "3 witnesses to build a doctrine" come from?

Alive_Again said:

There's no doubt a warning not to sin for the believer in every book in the NT.

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Sure, but it is not salvific to the believer. It is for a prosperous life....so that we don't wander into the curse and take on the results of the curse.

Alive_Again said:

If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood will cleanse us. "IF".

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Many will say "Lord, Lord." They attempt to "walk in the light" but they lie and do not practice the truth. They are unsaved. But (v9) if they confess their sins (as we have done to become saved) He is faithful to forgive us. We, even we who are saved, cannot say that we have never sinned, for we were once reprobate. But God has called us into His Glory, He has justified us, He has sealed us with the Holy Spirit and He is faithful to keep us. (you want the verses for all that? We've been through it time and AA-forgotten time.)

Alive_Again said:

“Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
1 Cor 10:9-12

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Quoting an OT story of those in the wilderness who never made it to the Promised Land. He that thinketh he standeth is the same he that says "Lord, Lord." Jesus: "but I never knew you."

Alive_Again said:

“For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.”
1 Thess 3:5


“Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear His voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known My ways. So I sware in My wrath, They shall not enter into My rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”
Heb 3:7-12

“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
Matt 18:6

Ever offended a little one since you've been saved? Many believers are guilty of this with their own children.

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Not sure why you quote these to support your position. Paul was hindered and sent to know if this body was faithful or reprobate. Says nothing either way to your position.

Alive_Again said:

“To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:7-11

That seems to cover everyone because it is the camp of the obedient or the disobedient. No respect of persons means that the "saved" are just as capable of grievous sin as unbelievers.

“...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
2 Thess 1:

There are almost certainly going to be believers deny Christ in the tribulation in an attempt to save their skin. If people are given the impression, because they are "sealed", that the deal is sealed, they will have a rude awakening.

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You speak from extra-biblical teachings, AA. You have shown nothing in scripture that speaks of "lost salvation." I have shown you verse after verse that simply does not fit within your paradigm, but you simply refuse to consider that.

It is not an "impression" that we are sealed. Scripture clearly states it. I've quoted it for you over and over and you have ignored it and simply make fun of it here.
Sealed....guarantee (promise!) ... until the redemption.

Done deal.

Good discussion guys.

Peace...

Wow, Heavy discussion.

To lose my salvation means that God is no longer "My Father..?" He "Un-adopts me..? He Unseals me..? He Un-borns me..? He gives me back my Old Nature that was crucified with Christ and now He has to re-create it again..? He passes me from death to life and then back to death again..? He Un-saves me..? He takes back the Gift of Righteousness (that I took) which He gave me as a "free gift..?" He takes back the Gift of Grace (that I took) which He gave to me as a "free gift..?" He gave me Eternal Life as a "free gift" which I took and now He takes it back..? He gave me the "free gift" of the Holy Spirit and now He takes it back..? He gave me faith to endure and now He takes it back..?

Boy, If I lose my salvation, I just can't wait to "get saved" all over again to continue everything mentioned above each time I fall away, wow..! I can just see multitudes of the un-saved coming to Christ with this kind of a "loving Father" who takes back everything He has given to us if we fall short of His covenants and commandments... How can even an ex-Christian come back to such a "loving Father" who will be constantly waiting for them to fall away again so He can take everything back again..? and again, and again..? This salvation plan sounds so great doesn't it..? The God I serve does not take back, He Gives...

I can't even imagine me as a father, doing this to my four kids...I don't care how many times they "reject" me... I will NEVER leave them or forsake them..! Hmmm..! Now, where have I heard that before..?
I must add though that this is how most of us feel and we can make this promise, but we can also break this promise to our sons and daughters, however, the good news is that God CANNOT break His promise to us...

God's punishment for ALL of our sins, saved and unsaved was put on Jesus... Period..! If we as Christians fail, (our flesh) we are chastised (not by all above), but by His Word. Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, and for training in righteousness, So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well-fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17, AMP)...His Word leads us to repent of our actions even though we are continually being cleansed by His blood...

Can we as born again Christians lose our salvation..? I will let you figure that out...My answer is, (remember the old song) "When I see the blood, I will pass over you..! (Exod 12:13)

"Now to HIM that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, "and" to present you faultless before his glory with exceeding joy." (Jude 1:24)

Greater works...for such a time as this...
_____________
Harry

hhodgson said:

To lose my salvation means that God is no longer "My Father..?" He "Un-adopts me..? He Unseals me..? He Un-borns me..? He gives me back my Old Nature that was crucified with Christ and now He has to re-create it again..? He passes me from death to life and then back to death again..? He Un-saves me..? He takes back the Gift of Righteousness (that I took) which He gave me as a "free gift..?" He takes back the Gift of Grace (that I took) which He gave to me as a "free gift..?" He gave me Eternal Life as a "free gift" which I took and now He takes it back..? He gave me the "free gift" of the Holy Spirit and now He takes it back..? He gave me faith to endure and now He takes it back..?

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And one argument will be that it isn't God who is un-saving you, but you are. So how is salvation such a glorious thing that we cannot earn it, it must be given by Him but we feel that we are so in control as to undo it?? One doesn't know the full Love and Mercy and Grace and Kindness of God if they think this is so.

It is like the story of the prodigal son:

(1) the father did not accept him back and tell him, now when you disobey you will go right back to the pig pen....

(2) nor did the son EVER stop being the son of the father; the relationship was never severed, but rather it was distanced when the son went his own way. When the son, who went off on a selfish tangent, repented and turned in the right direction the father was waiting for...no, running to...the son, embracing him and giving him the best.

It should be noted that this repentance wasn't to establish a relationship...the relationship was always there. The father loved the son and the son was the son of the father....he was still and always had been in the family.

hhodgson said:

"Now to HIM that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, "and" to present you faultless before his glory with exceeding joy." (Jude 1:24)

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Amen all over again!!!

One of the places where I part from popular WoF teaching is the spirit-soul-body, or as Hagin used to say "baud-ay".

The popular phrase is "I am a spirit, I have a soul, I live in a body."

This is where I differ.

I believe I am a soul, I (my soul) has a spirit that is present in (opposed to being absent from) my body.

When I say "I"... it is my soul, not my spirit that is speaking.

There is a spirit realm and a physical realm... there is no "soulical" realm.
There is no "soul" object. The soul is an abstract thing that is the result of a spirit-body union.
You as a soul have a choice to follow the inclinations of your flesh or your spirit.
This is where we are in Gal 5.
You (your soul or "I") can walk in (or according to the inclinations of) the (your) spirit or (your) flesh.

didaskalos said:

One of the places where I part from popular WoF teaching is the spirit-soul-body, or as Hagin used to say "baud-ay".

The popular phrase is "I am a spirit, I have a soul, I live in a body."

This is where I differ.

I believe I am a soul, I (my soul) has a spirit that is present in (opposed to being absent from) my body.

When I say "I"... it is my soul, not my spirit that is speaking.

There is a spirit realm and a physical realm... there is no "soulical" realm.
There is no "soul" object. The soul is an abstract thing that is the result of a spirit-body union.
You as a soul have a choice to follow the inclinations of your flesh or your spirit.
This is where we are in Gal 5.
You (your soul or "I") can walk in (or according to the inclinations of) the (your) spirit or (your) flesh.

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Dude, you are right on the money. I have looked at it that way for quite some time. I rarely if ever say it though, because it has a tendency to take the conversation on a tangent, and it isn't important enough a distinction from the other to make a difference in discussions of renewing the mind and walking in the spirit to be worth the distraction.

But kudos to you. I thought that I was the only person who had ever thought of that. In fact, you are the first person that I have ever heard say it, besides me speaking to myself. If the sould is the seat of the personality, then the soul is the real ME. At least the Me that is different from everyone else on the planet.

Peace...

dkbwarrior said:

..., and it isn't important enough a distinction from the other to make a difference in discussions of renewing the mind and walking in the spirit to be worth the distraction....

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um....wow.

I have to disagree with your statement above IF this concept plays out. I have to admit I've never really taken it to this point... (see also any (if any) response I make to didaskalos in the next few minutes)

Interesting....I'll have to study from this perspective to see if it holds water. Yes, very interesting.

ABlessedMan said:

um....wow.

I have to disagree with your statement above IF this concept plays out. I have to admit I've never really taken it to this point... (see also any (if any) response I make to didaskalos in the next few minutes)

Interesting....I'll have to study from this perspective to see if it holds water. Yes, very interesting.

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Ahhh, well here we go. Yes, I will listen, of course. Love to hear your thoughts. But - it seems you are trying to prove the wisdom of my not interjecting this thought into threads on other subjects.

By the way, just for clarification. All three parts of man are ME. Just as all three parts of God are God. BUT, the soul is where the seat of the personality rests. Therefore, that is what is uniquely me, if you get my drift.

Peace...

didaskalos said:

One of the places where I part from popular WoF teaching is the spirit-soul-body, or as Hagin used to say "baud-ay".

The popular phrase is "I am a spirit, I have a soul, I live in a body."

This is where I differ.

I believe I am a soul, I (my soul) has a spirit that is present in (opposed to being absent from) my body.

When I say "I"... it is my soul, not my spirit that is speaking.

There is a spirit realm and a physical realm... there is no "soulical" realm.
There is no "soul" object. The soul is an abstract thing that is the result of a spirit-body union.
You as a soul have a choice to follow the inclinations of your flesh or your spirit.
This is where we are in Gal 5.
You (your soul or "I") can walk in (or according to the inclinations of) the (your) spirit or (your) flesh.

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Ahhhh....

Hmmm....

Ummmm....

yeah. well. um. yeah.
Ok. Just to add thoughts to this (and right now mine are quite random).

"Souical" realm. Would be called the "soulish realm" in English.
Physical realm (not physicual or physicish).
Spiritual realm (not spiritical or spiritish).
Soulish realm (not soulical or soulitual).
Hmm. Man became a soul. Man didn't get a soul; he became soul.

Moving to the NKJV "soul" is rendered "living being."
My (me, myself and I) soul. Soul in ownership of me. In other words, a thing possessed by me, not me myself.

Looking at a quick search for soul we see "my soul," "your soul," "his soul," "my daughter's soul."

Matt 16:26: Can I exchange my soul?

Mark 8:36: an allusion to gaining the world but losing your soul. So do I then exist without a soul? (Moreover it is a lost soul, of course.)

Luke 2:35 tells us that "yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also."

Luke 12:19 "And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up...." This could be me talking to my soul.

Luke 21:19: "By your patience possess your souls." The soul is a thing to be possessed (held).

3 John 1:2: "Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers." Indicating that your soul can prosper but you might not?

-----

I've got some study to do, but souls look like they can be possessed (held). But then the same language can be found on the body and on the spirit.

If I take this to the extreme, then, it would indicate that I (me, myself) am not any of the three. But rather I possess each of these.

On the other hand if we make the argument that I am a soul-- even when scripture says "my spirit" in this same way -- then why not the spirit or body in the same manner. If we make the arguement that I am a spirit -- even when scripture...... you get the point.


Yes, some study to do. But me thinks I will go this path only kicking and screaming. But then, what path does it leave me?

_____

This is off-topic of the OP and perhaps we should move it to its own thread.... this could be a good study. What'cha all think?

dkbwarrior said:

Ahhh, well here we go. Yes, I will listen, of course. Love to hear your thoughts. But - it seems you are trying to prove the wisdom of my not interjecting this thought into threads on other subjects.

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LOL. No, I just think that if this proves out, then it is important. Some aspects of it will help understand other things about "me."

dkbwarrior said:

By the way, just for clarification. All three parts of man are ME. Just as all three parts of God are God. BUT, the soul is where the seat of the personality rests. Therefore, that is what is uniquely me, if you get my drift.

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Yes, I agree.

I am sticking with Hagin on this issue. From my own experiences I know my (renewed) spirit is in total control of me and tells my soul to get into order when it "strays" ..

Take a look at the functional diagrams I’ve included here. I call them “functional” because there’s no inspiration or reality to the fact that I’ve depicted spirit, soul, and body as circles. None of us are circles, even though some people are rounder than others! These diagrams are just an effort to communicate with you the relationship between spirit, soul, and body by means of illustration.
Consider this first diagram of three circles inside each other (appears like a target). The outer circle is your body. It’s the part you can see and feel. Then you have an inner part that can’t be seen but can be felt. That’s your soul. Notice how your soul touches both your body and spirit. Your spirit is a second inner part. Although it’s the center of who you are, it can’t be seen or felt.

Most people don’t recognize the fact that their spirits are the core of their beings. They function primarily out of their soulish realm, believing what they think and feel is reality. They may perceive their souls to be the core of who they are, but God’s Word says differently.

(Your spirit is the real you!) “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). After God formed Adam, He breathed into him the breath of life (Gen. 2:7). This Hebrew word “breath” is also rendered “spirit” in other places (e.g., Job 26:4 and Prov. 20:27). Adam’s body and soul (physical, mental, and emotional parts) had no life in them until “spirit” was imparted. Your spirit is your life-giving part!

Since your life comes from your spirit, it’s the innermost circle of the three. Notice also how your spirit is completely surrounded by your soul. It has no direct access to your physical body. The diagram of three rings also illustrates this lack of a direct link. That’s why everything that comes out from your spirit to your body must go through your mental, emotional part!



With the pipe diagram, one side represents your spirit and the other your body. Your soul acts as a valve in between the two. When you open the valve, what’s in your spirit can flow through to your body. Depending upon how open it is, the flow of life could be just a trickle, a small stream, or rivers (John 7:38). When the valve is closed, the flow from spirit to body shuts off. That’s a great illustration of how a born-again believer functions!
In your spirit, you’ve got the same power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead (Eph. 1:18-20). However, it’s possible to have this power and never manifest it. If your soul, like a valve, stays closed to this truth, you won’t experience it. Without opening the valve by renewing your mind to God’s Word, the eternal reality in your spirit won’t be able to impact the temporal “reality” of your physical realm. All that resurrection life and power just stays locked up inside until you look into the spiritual mirror long enough to see the real you and release it! Andrew Womack


The above was Wommack's take on the spirit, soul and body...I will note that our spirit is 100% redeemed... This is the only way God can deal with us is through the spirit... (Is this the "real you..?) and He cannot deal with us through the "soul." (is this the "real you..?") The soul is being redeemed by the renewing of our minds...God can only communicate with us by our new created spirit...God only sees what we do in our spirit... The soul is bouncing around the natural and the supernatural...(don't know if that makes sense or not) We may see our soul as the "real you," but God sees our spirit as the "real you." Least that's how I see it... (subject to change based on knowledge). Before being born again, the old nature was the "real you" then, that nature was crucified with Christ and we were given a new nature which now is the "real you" which is the new spirit man...The soul remains the same either way... Now though, the soul must be renewed by the word to be later redeemed at the resurection... Our soul has to line up with our new spirit...Question: How can the "real you" of the soul line up with the spirit that is the "real you..? When I sin, (my soul), is that the "real me" or is the "real me" (my spirit) that God sees as blameless..? The spirit is considered as the "heart of man." and not the soul... The spirit may live without the body, but the body has no life apart from the spirit...The work of the body is only to carry out and apply that which the soul knows and the spirit believes... This is interesting..."My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God.." (Luke 1: 46,47) Dualism???

Just my thoughts since it opened up... Hope we don't stray too far from what we were earlier discussing... If what I wrote is too confusing to comment, at least think about what I presented by Wommack...

Greater works...
_____________
Harry

I said: The wages of sin is always death and that goes for all.

Scripture doesn't say that. It says the wages of sin is death. It also says that those born of God cannot sin.

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That means you're saying that if you sin, your wages won't be death? That happens here as well. When Adam sinned, he fell out of fellwship.

I said: That's a big presumption. If they were part of the church, that means they were in the Body of Christ, because that is the church.

No!! There are unsaved people in the church. Does your church offer an altar call? If so, why?? (And I'm not using church as a building here. But there IS a difference between the Body and the church.)

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The unsaved are NOT the church.

There are many who say Lord, Lord but will be told to depart from the coming wedding. They are unsaved.

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You are making that presumption. When He says that He doesn't know them, He means "know" as in intimately know them. It does not say they are unsaved. They are people who ran after the Lord and gave some form of an ear to what He said. They weren't living for the Lord, and hence, He didn't "know" them. It's a warning to us all because anyone (believer) can become lukewarm and indifferent.

I ask you, if Jesus really did mean that the lukewarm would not be accepted into Heaven, wouldn't you want to know that beforehand? Instead of assuming you're deal was done? Wouldn't you want to know the truth (assuming that is so, and I'm quite sure it is)?

Jesus didn't write....(sorry ) ... um.... ok, Paul wrote towards all, even if he letter went to the leaders of the churches. The churches have saved and unsaved in their midst. The messages contain the joy of the Gospel message, which is a wonderful thing to both the saved and unsaved alike, if they will listen.

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John wrote the Book of Revelation. It was not really a letter where he was admonishing believers, he wrote of the prophetic revelation he actually saw. He gave his impression when he described the Lord. Jesus spoke to the churches and their were many warnings for His people.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 5:18

I said: I think that the meaning of this verse is taken out of context.

Of course you do...it doesn't fit your paradigm.

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There is an understanding of "whatsoever is born of God" that eludes the translation in the King James. If we apply this to simply being born again, then we have a permanent vacation and simply will go to Heaven no matter what (forget the commandments). BUT, if whatsoever is born of God present tense, then you're walking in the divine nature and in the light. You're fullfilling the righteousness, being obedient, abiding in Him.

This is what the Word says and an "understanding" of one verse doesn't undo everything else that's been said.

All the Word says you have to do what He says or He's not your Lord. It has to agree with this. So the way you get around that is to say that it only applies to unbelievers, or that it won't affect your salvation. If Jesus asks you why you call Him Lord, it's time to get back to repentance and faith in the blood, because that is not walking in the light.

My paradigm is that ALL the Word is true and to say you can't sin, when John clearly states that you can. If we say we don't when we do we become liars (they're on the reject list if they don't repent).

Talking to believers...

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1 John 1:6

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

We're talking about walking in love. If we know Him, we must obey.

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1 John 2:15-17

WE are told not to love the world because if we do, we aren't "in Him" or walking in the Spirit, or abiding in Him\, or walking in the light.

He who does the will of God abideth forever

Huh? Where did "3 witnesses to build a doctrine" come from?

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Every word is established. You cannot take isolated verses out of the Bible and make an ironclad doctrine of them. It has to agree with what is already revealed.

I said: There's no doubt a warning not to sin for the believer in every book in the NT.

Sure, but it is not salvific to the believer. It is for a prosperous life....so that we don't wander into the curse and take on the results of the curse.

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It's not about your prosperity, although that would be affected. It's about a warning to those who sin -- both believers and unbelievers.

If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood will cleanse us. "IF". If means their is a choice. You cannot get away from the "IF". You MUST walk in the light to be cleansed. Soooo many get offended with their brother and take on a spirit of hatred. Sure, they repent, but you cannot walk in the light and hate your brother, or anyone else.

Many will say "Lord, Lord." They attempt to "walk in the light" but they lie and do not practice the truth. They are unsaved.

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The big presumption again. Believers can walk in darkness and probably most do it a lot of the time.

Quoting an OT story of those in the wilderness who never made it to the Promised Land. He that thinketh he standeth is the same he that says "Lord, Lord." Jesus: "but I never knew you."

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The difference is you think He is talking to unbelievers. Why do they need an admonition and warning. Most won't read the book anyway. The letter is to His people, because His people were the ones who perished. Jesus said why do you call Me Lord, if you do not do what I say? Believers and unbelievers have to choose everyday to do what He says and He says that determines whether or not He is your Lord.

People who give offense are on the list to not inherit the kingdom. It's yet another way to disqualify yourself, unless you repent and be washed in the blood.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 5:18

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

So both of these scriptures are true in their proper context.

So you're saying that you have no sin? So to receive that in the context where all is well, you have to pass that off to your flesh man, and thus waive responsibility for sinning.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:9 (KJV)

Here we are "because he is born of God". Jesus said you had to abide in Him. That means dwell and that speaks of a choice. Surely, "he is born of God" means that he is walking in resurrection life (a choice necessary to accomplish).

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.
1 John 3:24 (KJV)

Can't get away from this. That's the whole point of this. It's all in the Word and just the same as standing on Romans where we're saved by faith, we still have to keep the love commandment.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 John 3:10

You MUST do righteousness. If not, then repent and walk in the light.

If Abraham didn't obey God, we wouldn't be talking about him as we do. It is because he obeyed God. He was accepted and God received him as righteous by believing, but he had to show his faith by works. Rahab had to do what she was told or they would have been blameless of the matter. We must do likewise (or repent).

I said: There are almost certainly going to be believers deny Christ in the tribulation in an attempt to save their skin. If people are given the impression, because they are "sealed", that the deal is sealed, they will have a rude awakening.

You speak from extra-biblical teachings, AA. You have shown nothing in scripture that speaks of "lost salvation." I have shown you verse after verse that simply does not fit within your paradigm, but you simply refuse to consider that.

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I am surmising that people under pressure, will likely do as they do in this day deny the Lord. The Word says that He will deny us. If in fear, they take the mark, they will go to Hell.

It is not an "impression" that we are sealed. Scripture clearly states it. I've quoted it for you over and over and you have ignored it and simply make fun of it here.

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The whole "sealed" thing and the translation of impossible for the believer to sin thing are monuments to why you believe that you are no longer accountable to God and have to obey Him to still make Heaven. Your "works" are only saying "yes" to Him, which is all you can do. He gives the grace and ability. You can only choose and you must ALWAYS choose yes.

All you have to do is not forgive, and you're not getting in, sealed or not.

Sealed....guarantee (promise!) ... until the redemption. Done deal.

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Sounds like your race is over then!

TasManOfGod said:

I am sticking with Hagin on this issue. From my own experiences I know my (renewed) spirit is in total control of me and tells my soul to get into order when it "strays" ..

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Curious. The born again spirit is righteous and perfect. So if it is in control, why and how could your soul wander? (Are they both in control?)