Blessed Assumption/Dormition Day!

O Steadfast Protectress of Christians, constant advocate before the Creator! Do not despise the cry of us sinners, but in thy mercy come speedily to help on those of us who call on you in faith. Hasten to hear our petitions and to intercede for us, for you always protect those who honor you!

<Staff Edit>
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

The Life-giving Spring - YouTube

A little out of season, but:

Joseph Hazen said:

A little out of season, but:

[FONT=&quot]The Angel cried to the Lady full of grace:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rejoice! Rejoice, O pure Virgin![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Again, I say rejoice! Your Son is risen[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]from His three days in the tomb.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]With Himself He has raised all the dead.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rejoice, rejoice all ye people![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Shine! Shine! Shine, O new Jerusalem![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Glory of the Lord has shown on you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Exult now, exult and be glad, O Zion![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Be radiant, O pure Theotokos, in the Resurrection,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the Resurrection of your Son![/FONT]​

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Resurrection Matins Ode 9 Chanted by monks of IM Vatopaidi - YouTube

Paschal canon ode 9 in Church Slavonic and Greek - YouTube

(Canon) It is the day of Ressurection & The Angel Cried- Anastaseos Imera & Aggelos Evoa - Valaam - YouTube

Magnificat - YouTube


Agni Parthene - Valaam Brethren Choir - YouTube

Angel Vopijase - english version - YouTube

And for our western friends.... what a few Russian profundos can do with a classic:

111. F. Schubert. Ave Maria. Vladimir Miller, basso profundo. Three Russian bass profundo. mp4 - YouTube

Valaam Chant - "Rejoice, Thou Bride Unwedded" - YouTube


From polluted lips accept thou a prayer, 0 unblemished, pure and most- pure Virgin Theotokos, and despise not my words, 0 my Joy, but look down on me and have pity, 0 Mother of my Maker. During my lifetime do thou not abandon me, for thou knowest, 0 Mistress, that I place all my hope on thee and all mine aspiring is alter thee. Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand thou before me, 0 my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, 0 Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But thou, my Joy, reveal unto me then thy presence, work thy mercy marvelously upon me, 0 Mediatress of my salvation. Rescue me, 0 Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by thine enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who sitteth there with His Beginningless Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen.

To deny that Mary is Theotokos is to deny that Christ is God.

<Staff Edit> This is where we are trying to honor the Mother of God when we commemorate her Dormition. Thanks.


Today the Barren Gates are Opened - YouTube

MOD HAT...

I'm closing this thread for a cleanup as per this rule; please note the portions which I have highlighted in red:

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts
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If there is any question about what's "on topic", read the first post; this is not a debate thread.

Mark
Staff Supervisor

MarkRohfrietsch said:

MOD HAT...

I'm closing this thread for a cleanup as per this rule; please note the portions which I have highlighted in red:



If your post has been removed or edited, it is because it is either off topic, has violated another of our rules, or has quoted a post which is in violation of one of our rules.

If there is any question about what's "on topic", read the first post; this is not a debate thread.

Mark
Staff Supervisor

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The thread is now open again.

Please refrain from making off topic posts, and stop flaming and goading other members of CF (those who have done so know who they are).

Further violations will result in immediate short term bans and other Staff Actions. Note that some of the posts which were deleted have already been reported and are being reviewed by Staff.

Mark
Staff Supervisor

cobweb said:

To deny that Mary is Theotokos is to deny that Christ is God.

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Absolutely! As we respect and revere our biological mothers (Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16) we honor the mother of our Lord, whose family we have been grafted into. We hail and honor our Mother, the Mother of God, Queen of Heaven.


Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!
Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!
To thee do we cry, poor banished
children of Eve, to thee do we send
up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley, of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us; and
after this our exile show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God

That we may be made worthy of the
promises of Christ.

-----------------------------------------------

Thank you Scott Hahn for opening my eyes to the Biblical and theological truth behind Mary. As it was made clear that this is not a debate thread, I will not put forth the arguments for why we should respect our Mother in Heaven. However, I will simply say that Hail, Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God by Scott Hahn is very much worth reading, both for skeptics to better understand their opponents, and for adherents for biblical support for their doctrines.

BTF

BeforeTheFoundation said:

Absolutely! As we respect and revere our biological mothers (Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16) we honor the mother of our Lord, whose family we have been grafted into. We hail and honor our Mother, the Mother of God, Queen of Heaven.

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I do not see Mary as my mother in any sense of the word...I see her as the mother of my L-rd.

I never refer to Mary as the Mother of G-d because of the controversial connotations, I understand why some are happy to use this term but I think it can be unnecessarily divisive when taken to the extreme.

I have never seen any justification in referring to Mary as the Queen of Heaven...it is alien to my understanding and an unbiblical title that goes beyond what is resonable and expedient...again causing unnecessary conflict and division....I would go so far as to say it is repugnant and does the opposite of honouring Mary by dishonouring YHWH because the very title 'Queen of Heaven' suggests/implies an unauthorised equality.

Thank you Scott Hahn for opening my eyes to the Biblical and theological truth behind Mary. As it was made clear that this is not a debate thread, I will not put forth the arguments for why we should respect our Mother in Heaven. However, I will simply say that Hail, Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God by Scott Hahn is very much worth reading, both for skeptics to better understand their opponents, and for adherents for biblical support for their doctrines.

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I have read Scott Hahns book which I found to be very poorly written and argued, and in which he shoots himself in the foot by contradicting himself on the main issue which I would gladly point out if required and providing I can dig out my copy.

I can understand why some may be uncomfortable with the language "Theotokos", just as I understand the reason why the term Theotokos was and is used.

But understanding what is meant by the term, its origin and conceptual base, I don't see the reason to take offense at the term - especially where there is agreement on the conceptual underpinning being expressed.

While Hahn's book is not the most scholarly, nor do I agree with everything that he said, in that book or elsewhere. However, his arguments concerning the historical reality that the mother's of Israelite kings were considered the queen convinced me that if Jesus is my King, then Mary must be my Queen.

And as far as Mary being my Mother, what else should I assume if Jesus is my brother?

Hebrews 2 said:

11For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father.* For this reason Jesus* is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,* 12saying,
&#8216;I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters,*
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you.&#8217;
13And again,
&#8216;I will put my trust in him.&#8217;
And again,
&#8216;Here am I and the children whom God has given me.&#8217;

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John:20 said:

17Jesus said to her, &#8216;Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, &#8220;I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.&#8221; &#8217;

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Alright, perhaps there was a little bit of arguing there. Forgive me. I simply am trying to explain why I am convinced that we should revere (note, not worship, but love as our own mothers) Mary.

Ave Maria!

BeforeTheFoundation said:

While Hahn's book is not the most scholarly, nor do I agree with everything that he said, in that book or elsewhere. However, his arguments concerning the historical reality that the mother's of Israelite kings were considered the queen convinced me that if Jesus is my King, then Mary must be my Queen.

And as far as Mary being my Mother, what else should I assume if Jesus is my brother?





Alright, perhaps there was a little bit of arguing there. Forgive me. I simply am trying to explain why I am convinced that we should revere (note, not worship, but love as our own mothers) Mary.

Ave Maria!

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Well said!

Glory be to God who has given us Jesus Christ, His Son, our Lord, through the sacred womb of the virgin mother of God.

-CryptoLutheran

BeforeTheFoundation said:

While Hahn's book is not the most scholarly, nor do I agree with everything that he said, in that book or elsewhere. However, his arguments concerning the historical reality that the mother's of Israelite kings were considered the queen convinced me that if Jesus is my King, then Mary must be my Queen.

And as far as Mary being my Mother, what else should I assume if Jesus is my brother?





Alright, perhaps there was a little bit of arguing there. Forgive me. I simply am trying to explain why I am convinced that we should revere (note, not worship, but love as our own mothers) Mary.

Ave Maria!

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I will have a look for the book and quote a couple of excerpts for you to look at...maybe you will see my concerns, even if you disagree.

I'm all for revering the role Mary has played as mother to our Saviour, and praising her virtuous life...and if Catholics didn't overdo it so much and make it a provocative issue...perhaps many Protestants would be more inclined to discover for themselves the person and character of the L-rds dear mother....but I do feel the CC doctrines have made her rather inaccessible, and in fact present a very different Mary to the one we see in Scripture....so there is a bit of a reaction against how she is portrayed...not against Mary herself.

I see what you are saying, and I have a feeling that we are closer than you might think. Again, I am not a Scott Hahn fanboy. In fact, I am the denomination that he left to become Roman Catholic. Though that brings me to this. Much of the inaccessible nation that you are concerned about, I would argue actually comes from Protestant polemic, not Catholic teaching.

Either way, things like this:

I'm all for revering the role Mary has played as mother to our Saviour, and praising her virtuous life.

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Are absolutely on target.

There are also certain Marian doctrines that I do not agree with, however, this thread, as far as I can tell, is simply about having respect for Mary, something that I can absolutely affirm, and it appears that you can as well.

As I respect and revere my own mother, and as I would honor my own Queen, I respect and honor Mary, who is the Theotokos, the one that was chosen to bring God into this world in a new way.

BeforeTheFoundation said:

I see what you are saying, and I have a feeling that we are closer than you might think. Again, I am not a Scott Hahn fanboy. In fact, I am the denomination that he left to become Roman Catholic. Though that brings me to this. Much of the inaccessible nation that you are concerned about, I would argue actually comes from Protestant polemic, not Catholic teaching.

Either way, things like this:



Are absolutely on target.

There are also certain Marian doctrines that I do not agree with, however, this thread, as far as I can tell, is simply about having respect for Mary, something that I can absolutely affirm, and it appears that you can as well.

As I respect and revere my own mother, and as I would honor my own Queen, I respect and honor Mary, who is the Theotokos, the one that was chosen to bring God into this world in a new way.

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Now I have no real disagreement with what you have stated here....and I don't think most Believers would...it is just a shame that for many of a more traditional faith there seems to be the need to over-emphasize their respect for Mary, and some things put off many of us that should actually accord more respect for the place Mary has as the L-rds mother and an example of faith and trustworthiness.

I think we should all be open to recognising that any doctrine or tradition that does not correspond to the Apostles doctrine and derails devotion to the L-rd by re-focusing it elsewhere is an attempt to rob G-d of what is duly His, and I think that is where most peoples objections lie...including mine.

Isaiah 48 talks about the people of Israel seeking G-d, but not according to truth and righteousness...and adds later something that is repeated throughout Scripture that He will not 'share His glory with another'...unfortunately Marian doctrine does this very thing and in its most fundamental forms attempts to place Mary alongside Jesus...although I understand that even to many Catholics and Orthodox Believers, such a notion goes too far...but words and doctrines speak for themselves, either they mean what they say or they don't.

Zazal, unfortunately, I think that you and I are coming dangerously close to derailing the thread, something that I had promised myself that I would not do (sorry everyone). However, on the other hand, I think that both you and I fit nicely in this thread. The thread's purpose seems to be to praise Mary as an extremely important individual to our personal faith. I think that you and I would disagree with the exact bounds of that praise, I would be closer to, though not identical to, the Catholic/Orthodox stance, we are both seeking to revere Mary as the Mother of Jesus at the very least, and something more than that as well. I would use words like 'Queen of Heaven', 'Mother', and 'Theotokos'. I think that you would shy away from those terms, but I can tell that at the same time your move away from those terms is not in an attempt to disrespect Mary.

I absolutely appreciate the concern that, at times, devotion to Mary has detracted from the recognition that God is... well, God. But like so many doctrines in Christianity, it is all about a balancing act. Does Mary deserve our worship? Absolutely not! But our love? Certainly. And it seems that both you and I are walking that balance well.

What concerns me is when my fellow Protestants take their concerns over Marian devotion too far. Take John Knox for example (I choose him in part because he is instrumental in founding my denomination). He tells the story, possibly referring to himself, of a Catholic Priest telling a man (Knox?) to kiss a picture of Mary. Instead the person grabbed the picture, cast it into the sea, and stated, "Let our Lady now save herself: she is light enough: let her learn to swim." And I ask myself, is this what Jesus had in mind when he, from the cross, commanded his disciple to care for his mother?

In the end, have there been times and places where Marian devotion turned into Mary worship? I'm sure that there have been. But this is neither what I believe as a Protestant who respects Mary, nor what the Catholic or Orthodox have ever officially taught. Certainly there have been people throughout history who took it too far, but that is true of every doctrine, not just Mary. Anyway, I think that both of us can say that Mary deserves our respect and love.

As the angel said, "Hail Mary! Full of Grace the Lord is with thee! Blessed art though amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!"