Does Divine Revelation Trump Reason? Pressuppositionalism

Eudaimonist

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Many events in the world were, and are, supernatural events (events for which there is no natural cause or explanation).

Such as?

They see the world myopically, focusing only on the natural.

Or you interpret things wrongly, mistaking something natural or purely subjective for something supernatural.

If they reject divine revelations about the world, they are seeing it wrongly.

Or they are seeing it correctly.

An undeniable proof is a known fact.

God is not a known fact.

God is a known fact for which there is undeniable proof.

Such as?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Doveaman

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Do you have an example of a divine revelation you have received, then followed, whose effects precisely followed a biblical prediction?
“Everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” (2 Tim 3:12-13).
 
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freezerman2000

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Do you have an example of a divine revelation you have received, then followed, whose effects precisely followed a biblical prediction?
I'm going to add...in your own words, NOT verse..falling back on bible verses is to easy.
Have you ever been given a divine revelation that came true to you PERSONALLY?.."Well, there I was..." would be a good start!
 
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Lilandra

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“Everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” (2 Tim 3:12-13).

How about you speak for yourself and what you think in your own words?
 
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Doveaman

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I'm going to add...in your own words, NOT verse..falling back on bible verses is to easy.
The "bible verses" are the divine revelations and predictions:

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim 3:16-17).

The "bible verses" (divine revelations) predict the effects I would experience if I follow them as instructed. The effects of those predictions then become my personal experiences whenever I follow the "bible verses" as instructed.

“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.” (Prov 3:5-6).
Have you ever been given a divine revelation that came true to you PERSONALLY?.."Well, there I was..." would be a good start!
Well, there I was living a life which felt rather meaningless, insignificant and pointless despite all my personal achievements (job, bank account, family, house, car, etc).

I then received divine revelations through the “bible verses” about a Man name Jesus, a Man who would give my life meaning, significance and purpose if I entrusted my life to Him as the “bible verses” instructed. So I decided to follow the divine revelations just as instructed in the “bible verses”.

From that day forward my life changed. I began to understand the meaning of my life. I began to realize the purpose of my existence. I began to appreciate the significance of my personal achievements in light of divine revelations. Suddenly, I was a new man. Suddenly, I was "born again" just as the “bible verses” predicted.

“Jesus declared, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’…For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.” (John 3:31, Peter 1:23).
 
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Doveaman

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How about you speak for yourself and what you think in your own words?
See above.

By requesting that I speak for myself in my own words, you are in effect asking me to lie.

"Let God be true, and every man a liar." (Rom 3:4).

This is why we let God speak for us in His own words, because only God is true.
 
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freezerman2000

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The "bible verses" are the divine revelations:

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim 3:16-17).

The "bible verses" (divine revelations) predict the effects I would experience if I follow them as instructed. The effects of those predictions then become my personal experiences whenever I follow the "bible verses" as instructed.

“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.” (Prov 3:5-6).
Well, there I was living a life which felt rather meaningless, insignificant and pointless despite all my personal achievements (job, bank account, family, house, car, etc).

I then received divine revelations through the “bible verses” about a Man name Jesus, a Man who would give my life meaning, significance and purpose if I entrusted my life to Him as the “bible verses” instructed. So I decided to follow the divine revelations just as instructed in the “bible verses”.

From that day forward my life changed. I began to understand the meaning of my life. I began to realize the purpose of my existence. I began to appreciate the significance of my personal achievements in light of divine revelations. Suddenly, I was a new man. Suddenly, I was "born again" just as the “bible verses” predicted.

“Jesus declared, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’…For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.” (John 3:31, Peter 1:23).

What I meant when I said that the verses are to easy to fall back on, is that so many folks have lost the ability (or so it seems) to post anything BUT verse, and in the process, lost the God given ability to carry on a normal conversation..it seems like it is to hard for them to put things in their own perspective and words.I have seen entire conversations that consisted of nothing BUT verse.I blow right by them because it is like they are convo's between Bible bots.

Have you ever had a "Divine Revelation" to the point where you see a catastrophic event that pertains to your personal safety and you avoided the area(s) involved?Some would call it "premonition".
THAT'S what I'd like to know.
 
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freezerman2000

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See above.

By requesting that I speak for myself in my own words, you are in effect asking me to lie.

"Let God be true, and every man a liar." (Rom 3:4).

This is why we let God speak for us in His own words, because only God is true.
Asking you to lie is the farthest thing in my mind:wave:
When you are talking to family, do you interject verse into every other sentence?
If you are of God you wouldn't be a liar in the first place...

Your faith is commendable, but I'd like to be able to talk to you and you talk to me IN YOUR OWN WORDS sometimes.
 
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Doveaman

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What I meant when I said that the verses are to easy to fall back on, is that so many folks have lost the ability (or so it seems) to post anything BUT verse, and in the process, lost the God given ability to carry on a normal conversation.
A conversation that excludes bible verses when discussing divine revelations is not a “normal conversation”. The verses are added as divine support for the revelations. This is no different from you making a claim about the origin of man and then adding a peer-review paper as scientific support for your claim.

You interpret your world based on purely human reasoning. I interpret my world based on human reasoning and divine revelations. We don’t need divine revelations to know that human babies are born to human parents, but we do need divine revelations to know the origin of humans. When human reasoning concludes that humans evolved from apes, that’s when we look to divine revelations to see how ridiculous that claim is.
it seems like it is to hard for them to put things in their own perspective and words.I have seen entire conversations that consisted of nothing BUT verse. I blow right by them because it is like they are convo's between Bible bots.
If I was on a Spanish forum with people speaking Spanish to me I would blow by them too, because it would be like convo's with Spaniard bots. But this would not mean that what they were saying had no relevance to the conversation. It would simply mean I cannot comprehend the meaning of what is said.

What you are missing is that the Christian life is based on divine revelations, and not based on purely human reasoning like yours is. When the Christian quotes Bible verses during a conversation they are simply presenting what God has to say on the subject without interjecting too much of their own human reasoning to dilute what God has said. It is then left to the reader to choose whether or not to believe what God said.

There are those who hate to hear what God has to say on any subject, so they would rather not be quoted Bible verses. Then there are others who simply cannot comprehend the verses because of lack of discernment:

“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor 2:14).
Have you ever had a "Divine Revelation" to the point where you see a catastrophic event that pertains to your personal safety and you avoided the area(s) involved? Some would call it "premonition".
THAT'S what I'd like to know.
You mean like visions and dreams? I can’t say I’ve had such an experience. But I’m sure other have.

Premonitions, however, are not always divine in origin, some of them are demonic in origin, so our experience of them does not necessarily mean it is of God. This is why God inspired the Bible to be written so we could compare any experience or claim (theological or scientific) with the Bible to see if they measure up. If they don’t measure up, they can take a hike.
Asking you to lie is the farthest thing in my mind
You are asking me to rely purely on flawed human reasoning which leads to us deluding ourselves.
When you are talking to family, do you interject verse into every other sentence?
Sometimes, depending on the subject of the conversation.
If you are of God you wouldn't be a liar in the first place...
But if I relied purely on flawed human reasoning I would be a liar, because I would be deluding myself and others.
Your faith is commendable, but I'd like to be able to talk to you and you talk to me IN YOUR OWN WORDS sometimes.
We can do that if you want to talk about motorsports. I like motorsports.

But if you what to talk about the origin of man:

“The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground…” (Gen 2:7).

Not much human reasoning required, just human acceptance of divine revelations. I don’t need to waste time studying rocks and fossils and apes that only lead to us deluding ourselves by purely human reasoning.

“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.” (Prov 3:5-6).
 
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freezerman2000

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A conversation that excludes bible verses when discussing divine revelations is not a “normal conversation”. The verses are added as divine support for the revelations. This is no different from you making a claim about the origin of man and then adding a peer-review paper as scientific support for your claim.

You interpret your world based on purely human reasoning. I interpret my world based on human reasoning and divine revelations. We don’t need divine revelations to know that human babies are born to human parents, but we do need divine revelations to know the origin of humans. When human reasoning concludes that humans evolved from apes, that’s when we look to divine revelations to see how ridiculous that claim is.
If I was on a Spanish forum with people speaking Spanish to me I would blow by them too, because it would be like convo's with Spaniard bots. But this would not mean that what they were saying had no relevance to the conversation. It would simply mean I cannot comprehend the meaning of what is said.

What you are missing is that the Christian life is based on divine revelations, and not based on purely human reasoning like yours is. When the Christian quotes Bible verses during a conversation they are simply presenting what God has to say on the subject without interjecting too much of their own human reasoning to dilute what God has said. It is then left to the reader to choose whether or not to believe what God said.

There are those who hate to hear what God has to say on any subject, so they would rather not be quoted Bible verses. Then there are others who simply cannot comprehend the verses because of lack of discernment:

“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor 2:14).
You mean like visions and dreams? I can’t say I’ve had such an experience. But I’m sure other have.

Premonitions, however, are not always divine in origin, some of them are demonic in origin, so our experience of them does not necessarily mean it is of God. This is why God inspired the Bible to be written so we could compare any experience or claim (theological or scientific) with the Bible to see if they measure up. If they don’t measure up, they can take a hike.
You are asking me to rely purely on flawed human reasoning which leads to us deluding ourselves.
Sometimes, depending on the subject of the conversation.
But if I relied purely on flawed human reasoning I would be a liar, because I would be deluding myself and others.
We can do that if you want to talk about motorsports. I like motorsports.

But if you what to talk about the origin of man:

“The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground…” (Gen 2:7).

Not much human reasoning required, just human acceptance of divine revelations. I don’t need to waste time studying rocks and fossils and apes that only lead to us deluding ourselves by purely human reasoning.

“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.” (Prov 3:5-6).

So, there really is no use talking to you, if you do not let your Christian light shine through without relying on verse all the time..Good day, and God bless you.
 
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Lilandra

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See above.

By requesting that I speak for myself in my own words, you are in effect asking me to lie.

"Let God be true, and every man a liar." (Rom 3:4).

This is why we let God speak for us in His own words, because only God is true.

How do you know the Bible is the word of God? Aren't you still leaning on your own understanding to interpret it if it is? Does God beam understanding directly in your head? Why can't you think for yourself?
 
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Doveaman

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How do you know the Bible is the word of God?
God inspired the Bible, therefore the Bible is the word of God.
Aren't you still leaning on your own understanding to interpret it if it is?
No.
Does God beam understanding directly in your head?
Yes, an understanding of the core message.
Why can't you think for yourself?
I can, but I prefer God to think for me. He is much smarter.

“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.” (Prov 3:5-6).
 
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Doveaman

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So, there really is no use talking to you, if you do not let your Christian light shine through without relying on verse all the time.
It's impossible to do that. There can be no Christian light unless you rely on Bible verse all the time. Don't you get it?

"Your word, O LORD, is eternal...I gain understanding from your precepts...Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path." - (Ps 119:89-105).
 
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Elendur

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God inspired the Bible, therefore the Bible is the word of God.
Adamant, I am a believer.

break-the-cycle.jpg
 
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Doveaman

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Adamant, I am a believer.

break-the-cycle.jpg
False.

Scientific Method:

The Bible predicts effects I would experience if I follow the Bible as instructed. The effects of those predictions then become my personal experiences whenever I follow the Bible as instructed.

“Everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived...They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you.” - (2 Tim 3:12-13, 1 Peter 4:4).

Predictions confirmed. Bible verified.
 
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Elias512

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How do you know the Bible is the word of God? Aren't you still leaning on your own understanding to interpret it if it is? Does God beam understanding directly in your head? Why can't you think for yourself?
The Holy Spirit of God is our teacher to guide us and lead us into all truth. We are born with the natural mind. When we are born again then we take on the divine nature and the mind of Christ. Learning what it means to be born again and a new creation in Christ can take time to learn. It is a subject that can not really be learned from a post like this. This is more then just a doctrine that we learn.
 
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Split Rock

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A world view shaped by divine revelation is the only world view that can make sense of the world:
Sorry no. We do quite well without it in science.

Divine revelation always trumps human reason and myopic science.
Let's look at what "Divine revelation" has led to:
1. Witch hunting
2. Inquisitions
3. Crusades
4. Geocentricity
5. 6,000 year old earth
6. Earth the center of the universe
7. Creationism
8. Flood geology

Sorry, but that's not a very good track record.

Human reason comes with flaws. Myopic science focuses only on the natural world and not on the supernatural.
Human reasoning is required to interpert scripture. Therefore, all interpretation of scripture is inherently flawed.


God is omniscient:
The writers, transcribers, translators, and interpretors of scripture are most certainly Not.
 
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Split Rock

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False.

Scientific Method:

The Bible predicts effects I would experience if I follow the Bible as instructed. The effects of those predictions then become my personal experiences whenever I follow the Bible as instructed.

“Everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived...They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you.” - (2 Tim 3:12-13, 1 Peter 4:4).

Predictions confirmed. Bible verified.
Sorry, but it never worked that way for me.

Bible falsified.
 
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Elendur

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False.

Scientific Method:

The Bible predicts effects I would experience if I follow the Bible as instructed. The effects of those predictions then become my personal experiences whenever I follow the Bible as instructed.

“Everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived...They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you.” - (2 Tim 3:12-13, 1 Peter 4:4).

Predictions confirmed. Bible verified.
So in short;
People disagreeing are evil.

Good to know.
 
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