So what's going on in the Church of England?

Rion said:

I've read some disturbing reports, but most of them are pretty biased. It seems a resolution against Israel is being planned for the general Synod next month. It's even being reported that the Archbishop of Jerusalem is speaking in support of the suicide bombers, and many in the CoE are saying Israel should have never been formed.

I am not one of those people who blindly supports Israel; I can clearly see that both sides have done wrong, but that's what is bothering me. It seems like the CoE is blindly supporting Palestine and demonizing Israel IF these reports are true. I'm also not bashing the CoE because I don't know if this is even true, and if it is, I am not going to bash a whole group for something their leaders are doing. I'm mostly just curious, and not sure where else to ask about this.

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Of course it's true. This is the beginning of the end of the end times, so to speak. Israel will be abandoned by it's current supporters, and this is just the beginning.

Some of the recent statements on Israel made by CofE officials and standing commissions are here in this op-ed piece.

WinBySurrender said:

Of course it's true. This is the beginning of the end of the end times, so to speak. Israel will be abandoned by it's current supporters, and this is just the beginning.

Some of the recent statements regarding the CofE are here in this op-ed piece.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4191509,00.html

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Perhaps we should hold off making a judgment until we get a complete and accurate account of the truth. This link is to a reactionary article in an Israeli newspaper.

What has been called the "Palestinian Problem" is really the fault of the international community and perhaps the Arab States, who have enough land to provide more space for the displaced Palestinians to live in.

Rion said:

I've read some disturbing reports, but most of them are pretty biased. It seems a resolution against Israel is being planned for the general Synod next month. It's even being reported that the Archbishop of Jerusalem is speaking in support of the suicide bombers, and many in the CoE are saying Israel should have never been formed.

I am not one of those people who blindly supports Israel; I can clearly see that both sides have done wrong, but that's what is bothering me. It seems like the CoE is blindly supporting Palestine and demonizing Israel IF these reports are true. I'm also not bashing the CoE because I don't know if this is even true, and if it is, I am not going to bash a whole group for something their leaders are doing. I'm mostly just curious, and not sure where else to ask about this.

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Found it:

PALESTINE AND ISRAEL
Dr John Dinnen (Hereford) to move: 'That this Synod affirm its support for:
(a) The vital work of the World Council of Churches Ecumenical Accompaniment Programme in Palestine and Israel (EAPPI), encouraging parishioners to volunteer for the programme and asking churches and synods to make use of the experience of returning participants;
(b) Mission and other aid agencies working amongst Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and elsewhere in the region;
(c) Israelis and Palestinians in all organisations working for justice and peace in the area, such as the Parents Circle-Family Forum; and
(d) Palestinian Christians and organisations that work to ensure their continuing presence in the Holy Land.
155 signatures July 2011

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and it's described as:

On the final morning, Tuesday, another private member’s motion is to be brought by Dr John Dinnen (Hereford) on the work of the Churches in Palestine and Israel, asking the Synod to affirm its support for all the Christian agencies working among the Palestinians.

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found here:
Church Times - General Synod all set to vote (or adjourn) in July
it took some digging!
tulc(really doesn't get the hype)

Maybe do some research into Church on England policy on the matter (no, opinion pieces in newspapers don't count).

Criticising the Israeli government for some attacks on Palestine does not qualify as being abandoned by its supporters, but is a call for peace in the region from both sides.

steve_bakr said:

Perhaps we should hold off making a judgment until we get a complete and accurate account of the truth. This link is to a reactionary article in an Israeli newspaper.

What has been called the "Palestinian Problem" is really the fault of the international community and perhaps the Arab States, who have enough land to provide more space for the displaced Palestinians to live in.

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Not to mention the fact the Palestinians could have taken responsibility for self-government 300 years ago without having to be displaced, but chose not to do so.

WinBySurrender said:

Not to mention the fact the Palestinians could have taken responsibility for self-government 300 years ago without having to be displaced, but chose not to do so.

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WinBySurrender,

I don't know much about Palestine 300 years ago, but the displacement I am referring to occured in 1948 after the UN Charter for the creation of the state of Israel caused about 250,000 Palestinians to be forced from their homes in present-day Israel and were placed in refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank. What to do about that situation became known as the "Palestinian Problem", which the international community never got around to dealing with. Present-day Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated areas in the world and has one of the highest poverty rates. It also has one of the highest unemployment rates, as the vast majority are not allowed to enter Israel in order to find work. It really is an ongoing humanitarian disaster, and that may be part of the reason why the Anglican Church has turned its missionary attention towards the region. Also, Palestinian Christians have their own troubles, being such a minority. Any lasting peace in the region must also address the issues of the Palestinians, now numbering, I think, in the millions.

Rion said:

I didn't say that it was factual, in fact, I stated it was rather biased. I figured members of the CoE would know what was actually going on, and thus I asked.

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Yeah, I know Rion. My post wasn't really directed at you, but I suppose I didn't make that clear!

hi rion,

However, WBS is correct. The Scriptures tell us that in the final battle all the nations will rise up against Israel. This won't be something that happens like one day many nations support Israel and then voile! the next morning all the nations stand against Isreal. I'm confident that it will be a steady report of first this group turning against Israel and then another and another, possibly over 50 or 100 years, but the tide will turn against Israel. God's word is true!

Just as this major global economic upheavel is just one ripple and then there will be another and 5 years or 10 years later another and then another until the whole world is seeking after someone to hold the power and authority to rule economically and politically all the peoples and nations of the world and that will set the stage for the full acceptance of the days of the Antichrist. What we read in the prophets and the Revelation of the nature of men and the world in the last days is not something that is just going to pop up one day by surprise, but it will slowly and insidiously grow and come about through what we will see as very, very small changes.

We stand at the check-out line in the grocery store and are bombarded with magazines that scream - we are lovers of ourselves. The poor are put out on the streets and thousands upon thousands go hungry and without because - we are lovers of money. Advertizers regularly appeal to our desire to boast and be prideful. We regularly consider that we have to have the best and if we are in a financial position, or can even borrow enough money, we generally want something a shelf above what 'everybody else' has. You can ask the parents of a high school class and some 60-70% will tell you that their children don't respect them and are regularly disobedient. We are generally ungrateful, feeling rather that most everything we have we have deserved. Those who truly have love for others are becoming a smaller and smaller subset of society at large. Our courtrooms and morgues are filled with the results of people being unable to forgive even the slightest provocation and most assuredly any major slight. This government official today caught with his hand in the cookie jar; this figure of authority has been found to be molesting children, that gang out to spread death and hate and mayhem in our city streets. It's a treacherous world and people are rash in their anger. Carrying weapons in their pockets that with just the slightest reason will use it to kill someone else. Mankind today is generally conceited and seek after sexual pleasures and addictive pleasures as with alcohol and drugs and we're all about, 'if it feels good do it'. We laugh at anyone who would tell us to control ourselves and our sexual appetites.

Well, guess what? Here's what Paul wrote to Timothy about these very days:But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money,http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-timothy/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-2 boastful, proud,http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-timothy/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-3 abusive,http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-timothy/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-4 disobedient to their parents,http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-timothy/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-5 ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous,http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-timothy/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-6 rash, conceited,http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-timothy/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-7 lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- having a form of godlinesshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/2-timothy/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-8 but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

So, what's going on with the CofE? Nothing that God hasn't already warned us of.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

However, in googling 'church of england israel' there are some pretty eye-opening comments that have apparently been made and in reading over the first few pages of the CofE's report to the BSR (Board for Social Responsibility), there do seem to be some factual basis for the claim that the CofE is effectively working to distance itself from support of Israel and lay much of the blame for violence in the region at their feet.

However, it is fully understood by this author that if one doesn't agree that God gave Israel an everlasting covenant to the land for which they fight, then it may well look like an unrighteous fight. You know, God told Israel in the beginning to put out or kill all the foreigners in the land or they would be a snare unto them. God is always right!

God bless.
In Christ, Ted

steve_bakr said:

WinBySurrender,

I don't know much about Palestine 300 years ago, but the displacement I am referring to occured in 1948 after the UN Charter for the creation of the state of Israel caused about 250,000 Palestinians to be forced from their homes in present-day Israel and were placed in refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank.

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Palestinians are descended from thieves, robbers, confidence men and even murderers who fled Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and other Arab countries to escape justice from those countries. For well over the 300 years I mentioned, they were under Persian, Ottoman and British rule and could have on at least two occasions accepted autonomy that would have led to status as a nation-state. They showed no interest. They were more interested in living lawlessly and aloofly from the rest of the world. The question of Israel being a nation in the ancient homeland would never have come up if that had happened, but it did not. Perhaps today's Palestinians truly want a homeland, but I seriously doubt it as adamantly as their desire to deny Israel the homeland it acquired in the promise to Abraham. Whether that promise is fulfilled in current history or in the future is immaterial to those among them who believe they have been restored to statehood under God's grace and guiding hand. Had the Palestinians acted, that would be a moot point. They didn't. They had no interest. Not until the UN began considering the award of statehood to the Jewish settlers in the ancient homeland, at any rate. Then everyone began clamoring for a Palestinian state. Why?

Because the Arab world didn't want these hooligans, thugs and murderers to become refugees seeking solace in the homelands of their ancestors. They didn't want to deal with the type of person the typical Palestinian had become. Now, anyone can rise above circumstances, I agree. What the ancestors were doesn't describe what the progeny are or will be. But nothing was evident in those who lived among the Jews in 1948 that they were, indeed, different from their ancestors. Perhaps you see it as unjust that the creation of Israel created the Palestinian problem. But the fact the Arab nations didn't want to deal with the Palestinian problem themselves is indicative of the overall failure of the entire Arab world to provide for its own, as much as it is indicative of the prejudice the Arabs have for the Palestinians. Everyone is the Arab world and now in Iran are champions of the Palestinians -- as long as they don't have to live, eat or worship with them.

WinBySurrender said:

Palestinians are descended from thieves, robbers, confidence men and even murderers who fled Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and other Arab countries to escape justice from those countries. For well over the 300 years I mentioned, they were under Persian, Ottoman and British rule and could have on at least two occasions accepted autonomy that would have led to status as a nation-state. They showed no interest. They were more interested in living lawlessly and aloofly from the rest of the world. The question of Israel being a nation in the ancient homeland would never have come up if that had happened, but it did not. Perhaps today's Palestinians truly want a homeland, but I seriously doubt it as adamantly as their desire to deny Israel the homeland it acquired in the promise to Abraham. Whether that promise is fulfilled in current history or in the future is immaterial to those among them who believe they have been restored to statehood under God's grace and guiding hand. Had the Palestinians acted, that would be a moot point. They didn't. They had no interest. Not until the UN began considering the award of statehood to the Jewish settlers in the ancient homeland, at any rate. Then everyone began clamoring for a Palestinian state. Why?

Because the Arab world didn't want these hooligans, thugs and murderers to become refugees seeking solace in the homelands of their ancestors. They didn't want to deal with the type of person the typical Palestinian had become. Now, anyone can rise above circumstances, I agree. What the ancestors were doesn't describe what the progeny are or will be. But nothing was evident in those who lived among the Jews in 1948 that they were, indeed, different from their ancestors. Perhaps you see it as unjust that the creation of Israel created the Palestinian problem. But the fact the Arab nations didn't want to deal with the Palestinian problem themselves is indicative of the overall failure of the entire Arab world to provide for its own, as much as it is indicative of the prejudice the Arabs have for the Palestinians. Everyone is the Arab world and now in Iran are champions of the Palestinians -- as long as they don't have to live, eat or worship with them.

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Sounds like a justification for keeping them under oppression. News Flash: God loves Palestinians too. Jesus came to save them, just as he did for the rest of us sinners.

The 1948 Zionist should be held accountable of the atrocities they have perpetrated. Nothing biblical about it.

Lovely Lane said:

The 1948 Zionist should be held accountable of the atrocities they have perpetrated. Nothing biblical about it.

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I think we should begin from where we are now and push for a peaceful solution: security for Israel and statehood for the Palestinians.

steve_bakr said:

Sounds like a justification for keeping them under oppression. News Flash: God loves Palestinians too. Jesus came to save them, just as he did for the rest of us sinners.

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Not at all. Let the Arabs carve out a homeland for them among their own, if they're so interested in supporting the Palestinians. The Palestinians are not native to the Gaza Strip or any other part of what was ancient Israel. And as the Bible clearly speaks of an active, vibrant though mostly lost Israel at the time of the Tribulation, it is my belief God will not allow usurpers to occupy the land He has promised to Abraham's descendents.

Perhaps you missed the closing sentence of my post. The Arabs don't want to grant land to the Palestinians so as to provide them a home, because they don't want them anywhere near them. Any time in the last 64 years and before that, they could have made a move to alleviate the problem. They don't want to. They don't like the Palestinians either. They could care less about the Palestinians having a homeland. They are using them as political pawn to fight a surrogate war against a hated enemy who isn't going anywhere in this age.

Or, the next.

WinBySurrender said:

Not at all. Let the Arabs carve out a homeland for them among their own, if they're so interested in supporting the Palestinians. The Palestinians are not native to the Gaza Strip or any other part of what was ancient Israel. And as the Bible clearly speaks of an active, vibrant though mostly lost Israel at the time of the Tribulation, it is my belief God will not allow usurpers to occupy the land He has promised to Abraham's descendents.

Perhaps you missed the closing sentence of my post. The Arabs don't want to grant land to the Palestinians so as to provide them a home, because they don't want them anywhere near them. Any time in the last 64 years and before that, they could have made a move to alleviate the problem. They don't want to. They don't like the Palestinians either. They could care less about the Palestinians having a homeland. They are using them as political pawn to fight a surrogate war against a hated enemy who isn't going anywhere in this age.

Or, the next.

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Once again, I reiterate that God loves all his creation, including the Palestinians. Jesus came to save all people, and he has called for us to love everyone. We need to let the love of Jesus enter our hearts and for his teaching and example to determine how we look at the situation before us. As Christians, we are called to be known for the love we have for all of humanity. BTW, God also loves Arabs. He wants to save the whole world.

steve_bakr said:

Once again, I reiterate that God loves all his creation, including the Palestinians. Jesus came to save all people, and he has called for us to love everyone. We need to let the love of Jesus enter our hearts and for his teaching and example to determine how we look at the situation before us. As Christians, we are called to be known for the love we have for all of humanity. BTW, God also loves Arabs.

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I didn't say He didn't. For that matter, I didn't say that I don't love Palestinians and Arabs. I was in Saudi during Desert Storm. I have some great friends in the Saudi Army rotary wing forces that I still correspond with today. I've never met a Palestinian, but I'm sure I would love him as well if I did. You're missing my point, or perhaps I'm not expressing it well. Despite God's love for them, He will not let them stand in the way of the fulfillment of prophecy. In fact, this is all a lead-up to the Rapture and Tribulation. The current tensions will trigger the war that is spoken of in Ezekiel 39, which must take place before the antichrist is revealed. Have all the compassion and love we can muster for the Palestinians. Obviously they are God's creation and need to know Him. Yet they also remain enemies of God by not believing in Him as He has revealed Himself in the Bible. In the end, they will be dealt with as He sees fit, though many on Earth will see it as injustice and will further rebel against God because of it.

florida2 said:

Maybe do some research into Church on England policy on the matter (no, opinion pieces in newspapers don't count).

Criticising the Israeli government for some attacks on Palestine does not qualify as being abandoned by its supporters, but is a call for peace in the region from both sides.

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And needs to be seen in context. Unconditional support for Israel based on heretical eschatology derived from reading apocalyptic texts without respect for their genre is almost exclusively a US phenomenon. Thank God.

steve_bakr said:

God loves all his creation, including the Palestinians.

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Presumably God loved Adam, yet he cursed him and his progeny to scratch the earth for thousands of years. One might say if God loved all people, he wouldn't have wiped everything out in a worldwide flood? What about Sodom and Gomorrah? Those were his people too? Even the Israelites suffered four hundred years in slavery and another forty wandering the desert? Or does God only love his creation after Jesus?

If so, why does he cast the Israelites out in 70-ish AD or so? Why allow the early Christians to be fed to the lions and otherwise suffer? Why let modern Christians suffer and die at the hands of fanatical Muslims?

What does love have to do with the Palestinians packing up and moving out? I dare say a fair portion of the forum members have had to pack up and move cross country or around the world for their jobs? Doesn't Gd love them?

Love has nothing to with it. It's Israel's land, if they want the Palestinian's out, then the Palestinian's have to go. So it is written, so it shall be.

.