This is what Democracy looks like -- Theocracy?

SnowCal · Jun 24, 2012

SolomonVII said:
Seventh century solutions for twenty-first century problems, to my mind, will have no positive effect.

That's an interesting bit of logic you've got there. To what other questions do you think that could be applied.

Steve Petersen · Jun 24, 2012

HalfoffSale said:
What's wrong with them being a Theocracy? Doesn't seem to be much of a problem for our good friend Israel.

80% of Jews are secular.

Israel has an elected parliament that include Israeli Arabs.

Steve Petersen · Jun 24, 2012

Illuminaughty said:
When I hear of states being officialy Jewish, Muslim, or Christian (or any other religion) it makes me think they are still stuck back in the dark ages in that regard. I guess I was brought up with the American idea of separation of Church and state so I always have a strong reaction against examples of governmental religious establishment.

Like the Church of England, paid for with taxes?

Illuminaughty · Jun 24, 2012

Like the Church of England, paid for with taxes?

Yes, I think that's a horrible idea.

thaumaturgy · Jun 24, 2012

SolomonVII said:
Looking to the Koran as the solution will likely not have any desirable effects on the lethargic economy. Seventh century solutions for twenty-first century problems, to my mind, will have no positive effect.

Indeed! That is why it is hard to see the U.S. GOP playing off of 1st century (and earlier) discussion points rather than modern reality. But that's what everyone is facing: resurgent theocrats.

And it is not as if the people of that region are not religious enough already. so it won't even raise the morality standard up to where that might have an effecteven if Islam actually does have that kind of effect.

So are you saying islam doesn't provide a "morality"? Interesting.

While it is clearly different from the morality Christians prefer, it is a command from the almighty creator of the universe. The one and only god of the universe, right?

oh, but wait, they are worshipping the WRONG one god of the universe, aren't they?

Often that kind of situation of deteriorating economy will have people looking for scapegoats to explain why God is still not shining on them, and the Copts are as good a target as any in that regard.

And we saw something similar here in the U.S. back in 2001:

[SIZE=-1]And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen." Jerry Falwell on the 9/11 tragedy

[/SIZE]

So the idea of blaming outlier parts of society cuts across all religions I guess.

SolomonVII · Jun 24, 2012

thaumaturgy said:
Indeed! That is why it is hard to see the U.S. GOP playing off of 1st century (and earlier) discussion points rather than modern reality. But that's what everyone is facing: resurgent theocrats.

Click to expand...

GOP, whatever else it might be, is not in any way comparable to the MB.

So are you saying islam doesn't provide a "morality"? Interesting.

Click to expand...

No, I never really said that. I have no proof that it does raise the moral standards of a people, and that is what I said.

While it is clearly different from the morality Christians prefer, it is a command from the almighty creator of the universe. The one and only god of the universe, right?

Click to expand...

Yes, it is a different moral system than the Judeo-Christian system of America. Mohammed claims it to be a command from God.
Christians and Jews have their doubts about that as much as secularists do.

oh, but wait, they are worshipping the WRONG one god of the universe, aren't they?

Click to expand...

There is only one God according to all the monotheistic systems. Most monotheists don't understand the others to be worshipping the wrong God, but see the worship of others as incorrect to some extent or the other.
Then there are others that believe that the others are Satanic, although that was not taught by Mohammed, nor is it the most common stance of Christians or Jews towards the one or the other.

So the idea of blaming outlier parts of society cuts across all religions I guess.

Click to expand...

I guess.

SolomonVII · Jun 24, 2012

SnowCal said:
That's an interesting bit of logic you've got there. To what other questions do you think that could be applied.

I prefer to keep to the subject at hand rather than go off on tangents.
I think that MB coming to power does not bode well for Egypt, or Copts.

Maybe you disagree, and would prefer the most religiously conservative and reactionary forces of that society is a good turn for the revolution?

thaumaturgy · Jun 24, 2012

SolomonVII said:
GOP, whatever else it might be, is not in any way comparable to the MB.

Oh I agree, but theocracy and the road to theocracy is paved very similarly no matter which "theo" is behind it.

I was commenting on the current U.S. trend to think in terms only of those issues which are problematic from a 1st century or earlier dogma. As compared to the earlier post that 7th century thinking has no bearing on the modern world.

No, I never really said that. I have no proof that it does raise the moral standards of a people, and that is what I said.

Then will you agree that Christianity provides no proof of raising the moral standard of people?

Yes, it is a different moral system than the Judeo-Christian system of America. Mohammed claims it to be a command from God.
Christians and Jews have their doubts about that as much as secularists do.

Is that why we have repeated calls for posting the 10 Commandments in public places in the U.S.?

The point being: I have no doubt that the MB is going to be a nightmare for Egypt not unlike the Taliban are for Afghanistan...unless of course the Egyptian military keeps their control (which appears quite likely).

And I find the move to a theocracy repellent. But I find it repellent from any religious P.O.V.

Religious fervor is not the basis for a government.

Islam, per se, is no more or less a bad choice for government than Christianity.

And Christians are no less prone to "scapegoat" than Muslims.

MachZer0 · Jun 24, 2012

NightHawkeye said:
Fortunately, the USA is a constitutional republic ... with limited federal government powers ... rather than a simple democracy. We'll see how this works out for the Egyptians.

More importantly, we'll see how it works out for the Israelis

SolomonVII · Jun 25, 2012

thaumaturgy said:
]Oh I agree, but theocracy and the road to theocracy is paved very similarly no matter which "theo" is behind it.

Of all the problems facing America right now, I would put becoming a theocracy as a less serious threat than being taken over by Martians.
But maybe that's just me.

I was commenting on the current U.S. trend to think in terms only of those issues which are problematic from a 1st century or earlier dogma. As compared to the earlier post that 7th century thinking has no bearing on the modern world.

Likewise, a return to the ways of the Roman Empire are not an overriding concern.

Then will you agree that Christianity provides no proof of raising the moral standard of people?

No.
But that is getting rather far from the field of discussion. Recall that the original point was that Egyptians are already a religous people, so even if Islam does raise the moral level of a people, there will really be no discernible good effect from MB making the country more Islamic. That saturation point has already been reached.)law of diminishing returns).
It has nothing to do with Christianity, though very possibly the scapegoating of Christians there might continue or even increase.
Not that Westerners are all that concerned what happens to Christians. There will not be an outcry over that.

Is that why we have repeated calls for posting the 10 Commandments in public places in the U.S.?

The horror!!

The point being: I have no doubt that the MB is going to be a nightmare for Egypt not unlike the Taliban are for Afghanistan...unless of course the Egyptian military keeps their control (which appears quite likely).

Click to expand...

Yes, that is the point!!

And I find the move to a theocracy repellent. But I find it repellent from any religious P.O.V.

The chances of Egypt becoming a Christian theocracy are even remote that Martians taking over America.

Religious fervor is not the basis for a government.

I wouldn't question your logic on that, as mine has been for saying exactly the same sort of thing.

Islam, per se, is no more or less a bad choice for government than Christianity.

I have no idea if that is true or not.
There are no Christian theocracies in this modern era to compare to.

And Christians are no less prone to "scapegoat" than Muslims.

The same can be said for any group of people. Scapegoating is a human trait. Rene Girard has some very good writings on the role that Judaism and especially Christianity have played in exposing this universal phenomena.
But, as per the subject of the thread, it is very possible that Copts will be the scapegoats in the scenario being played out.

I am not sure why you feel the need to navel gaze on America's internal politics in this instance.

Touma · Jun 25, 2012

MachZer0 said:
More importantly, we'll see how it works out for the Israelis

More importantly?

Oh yeah, I forgot...The Egyptians are North African Arabs. We don't care what happens to them.

NightHawkeye · Jun 25, 2012

Touma said:
More importantly?

Oh yeah, I forgot...The Egyptians are North African Arabs. We don't care what happens to them.

Hi, Touma. :wave:

I believe Mach may have been referring to the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood in its various guises has repeatedly called for the annihilation of the state of Israel.

That's a fairly serious matter ...

Touma · Jun 25, 2012

NightHawkeye said:
Hi, Touma.

I believe Mach may have been referring to the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood in its various guises has repeatedly called for the annihilation of the state of Israel.

That's a fairly serious matter ...

Yeah, and it is well known that the military council is still ruling over the country, despite the election. Smoke and mirrors, that election is. Both candidates belong to SCAF. Do you think the military is going to relive some of their past defeats? I hardly think so.

So be scared all you want. You're just making yourself look silly.

Rion · Jun 25, 2012

Egypt's secular forces condemn US support for Muslim Brotherhood candidate

Why were we backing those guys, anyway?

MachZer0 · Jun 25, 2012

NightHawkeye said:
Hi, Touma.

I believe Mach may have been referring to the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood in its various guises has repeatedly called for the annihilation of the state of Israel.

That's a fairly serious matter ...

Egyptians got to vote for their government. The Israelis didn't get a vote but they will bear the consequences in one way or another. How much so remains to be seen

MachZer0 · Jun 25, 2012

Rion said:
Egypt's secular forces condemn US support for Muslim Brotherhood candidate

Why were we backing those guys, anyway?

Could it be our President's Muslim roots?

NightHawkeye · Jun 25, 2012

Touma said:
Yeah, and it is well known that the military council is still ruling over the country, despite the election. Smoke and mirrors, that election is. Both candidates belong to SCAF. Do you think the military is going to relive some of their past defeats? I hardly think so.

It's a good thing, someone has a modicum of sense ...

I can easily believe that some in the military do remember the death and destruction which ensued from their last encounter with Israel.

Touma said:
So be scared all you want.

I don't recall indicating that I was scared. Can you point me to that?

Touma said:
You're just making yourself look silly.

Or ... you're just in denial?

thaumaturgy · Jun 25, 2012

MachZer0 said:
Could it be our President's Muslim roots?

What "support" is this, exactly?

And of course it must be due to Obama's super-secret Muslim roots! The man practically faces Mecca every time he gives a press conference.

He's not Christian enough!!! We need him to invoke the powerful name of JESUS every 5 words! Otherwise he's prone to lapse back into MUSLIMISM!

Oh the musselman, Obama! Forsooth! We know he's from Kenya and we know he's a super-secret stealth moslem!

I demand, no, I SCREECHINGLY DEMAND my representative and congressperson back a bill COMMANDING the president of the U.S. to repeatedly avow his undying devotion to Jesus Christ.

He must continually say "Jesus is my savior!" and he must continually blaspheme the name of the prophet in order for me to believe he's even marginally Chrisitian enough for MY COUNTRY!

The U. S. of A.

God bless America!

1000Flames · Jun 25, 2012

thaumaturgy said:
What "support" is this, exactly?

And of course it must be due to Obama's super-secret Muslim roots! The man practically faces Mecca every time he gives a press conference.

He's not Christian enough!!! We need him to invoke the powerful name of JESUS every 5 words! Otherwise he's prone to lapse back into MUSLIMISM!

Oh the musselman, Obama! Forsooth! We know he's from Kenya and we know he's a super-secret stealth moslem!

I demand, no, I SCREECHINGLY DEMAND my representative and congressperson back a bill COMMANDING the president of the U.S. to repeatedly avow his undying devotion to Jesus Christ.

He must continually say "Jesus is my savior!" and he must continually blaspheme the name of the prophet in order for me to believe he's even marginally Chrisitian enough for MY COUNTRY!

The U. S. of A.

God bless America!

Can I get a HALLELUJAH!

Illuminaughty · Jun 25, 2012

Could it be our President's Muslim roots?

Exactly. It's the Shariah-commu-fascist-liberal-crony capitalist-Christian Liberation theology that he adheres to. All crypto-Muslims like Obama hold to that ideology.

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