Turn The Other Cheek? (Or, would Christ have us allow others to destroy us?)

UnamSanctam · May 1, 2012

RETS said:
So, you advocate self-defense? I'm just curious about how you are applying the verse.

In a case like the one the OP mentioned: Definitely. Of course having the police deal with matters is MUCH preferable, but sometimes they don't have time to get there.

RETS · May 1, 2012

UnamSanctam said:
In a case like the one the OP mentioned: Definitely. Of course having the police deal with matters is MUCH preferable, but sometimes they don't have time to get there.

All right, cool. Just wanted to get clarification.

And yeah- I hear that about the cops.

jgarden · May 1, 2012

Dale said:
ACougar hit the nail on the head here. A slap is not going to kill you.

Scholars have interpreted this passage looking at the significance of the left and right sides of the face in Hebrew custom at the time. Seen in this light, turning the other cheek is a demand for respect. It has nothing to do with being a doormat.

Jesus is not a pacifist and the Bible is not pacifist. You might recall that the Gospels tell us that the Apostles had two swords at the time that Jesus was arrested. Peter had one of them. This isn't armed to the teeth but it isn't completely unarmed, either.
*

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28)
- Jesus

Put your sword back in its place...for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)
- Jesus

Whatever Christians would not wish others to do to them, they do not to others. And they comfort their oppressors and make them their friends; they do good to their enemies. Through love towards their oppressors, they persuade them to become Christians.
- The Apology of Aristides

A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate must resign or be rejected. If a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God.
- Hippolytus of Rome

For since we, a numerous band of men as we are, have learned from His teaching and His laws that evil ought not to be requited with evil, that it is better to suffer wrong than to inflict it, that we should rather shed our own blood than stain our hands and our conscience with that of another ...
- Arnobius, Adversus Gentes I:VI

Consider the roads blocked up by robbers, the seas beset with pirates, wars scattered all over the earth with the bloody horror of camps. The whole world is wet with mutual blood; and murder, which in the case of an individual is admitted to be a crime, is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale.
- Cyprian of Carthage

Christian pacifism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The early Christians were "pacifists" - despite 3 centuries of repeated persecution by the Roman Empire, there is no record of Christians attempting to organize any form of armed resistance.

Despite centuries of persecution and martyrdom, it was the Christian "doormats" and not the Roman Empire that survived.

RETS · May 1, 2012

jgarden said:
The early Christians were "pacifists" - despite 3 centuries of repeated persecution by the Roman Empire, there is no record of Christians attempting to organize any form of armed resistance.

Despite centuries of persecution and martyrdom, it was the Christian "doormats" and not the Roman Empire that survived.

Interesting statement, J. I'll have to look back and see if I agree based upon history, but that is a very interesting statement.

Blackguard_ · May 2, 2012

Interesting statement, J. I'll have to look back and see if I agree based upon history,

It's somewhat true, although not all Christians were pacifists. Remember the early Church was very diverse.

It also doesn't mean Jesus wants us to be pacifists.

I think a distinction that few seem to make is that persecution for your faith is different than say, being attacked by robbers.

The early Christians were "pacifists" - despite 3 centuries of repeated persecution by the Roman Empire, there is no record of Christians attempting to organize any form of armed resistance.

1. It wouldn't have done much good resisting Rome. Christians would be aware of the Bar Kochba revolt for example.

2. The persecutions were generally sporadic and low-level. Although Christians were hated by many as they were thought to be a mystery cult, about their only crime as far as the Roman State was concerned was refusal to worship the imperial cult. they didn't really care if you worshiped Jesus. One of the 3rd century emperors even had a statue of Jesus in his personal pantheon.

2. They weren't meekly submitting to persecution and death, they reveled in it. A lot of martyrdoms were basically "suicide by cop".
Remember, this was the age of the cult of the martyrs, particularliy n the North African churches. Martyrdom got you glory and fame.

A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate must resign or be rejected. If a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God.
- Hippolytus of Rome

This is something that really baffles me. As Hippolytus seems to have concluded too, pacifism necessarily leads to anarchism, and yet many Christian Pacifists support using the violence of the State for various ends.

Catherineanne · May 2, 2012

DennisTate said:
Catherineanne....I read a story about a former homeless man who made it to a very high place in heaven as given to Pastor Rick Joyner. This story, in my opinion, has a direct relationship to your situation.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7653651/
Has God called some of us to be poor, sick, no arms or legs and persecuted???

That is a nice story; thanks for the link.

I suspect that PR is mistaken in his interpretation of God, however. God does not ration his love; he pours it out in abundance on all of creation. It is we who ration how much we are willing to accept from him.

But they are nice stories, and I thank you for your thoughtfulness in providing the link to them. I think if they actually came from God he would be able to find a rather more meaningful demonstration of virtue than managing the self control to not kick a kitten, though. In the great scheme of things that is not particularly impressive for anyone, in spite of what PR says.

Meanwhile, I have no idea why I have the life I have, but I trust God to know the reason, and for it to be a good one.

RETS · May 2, 2012

Blackguard_ said:
It's somewhat true, although not all Christians were pacifists. Remember the early Church was very diverse.

It also doesn't mean Jesus wants us to be pacifists.

I think a distinction that few seem to make is that persecution for your faith is different than say, being attacked by robbers.

1. It wouldn't have done much good resisting Rome. Christians would be aware of the Bar Kochba revolt for example.

2. The persecutions were generally sporadic and low-level. Although Christians were hated by many as they were thought to be a mystery cult, about their only crime as far as the Roman State was concerned was refusal to worship the imperial cult. they didn't really care if you worshiped Jesus. One of the 3rd century emperors even had a statue of Jesus in his personal pantheon.

2. They weren't meekly submitting to persecution and death, they reveled in it. A lot of martyrdoms were basically "suicide by cop".
Remember, this was the age of the cult of the martyrs, particularliy n the North African churches. Martyrdom got you glory and fame.

This is something that really baffles me. As Hippolytus seems to have concluded too, pacifism necessarily leads to anarchism, and yet many Christian Pacifists support using the violence of the State for various ends.

Thanks for that!

The quote by Hippolytus is one I've always had a problem with, for nowhere in Scripture is his decree supported.

DennisTate · May 2, 2012

jgarden said:
The early Christians were "pacifists" - despite 3 centuries of repeated persecution by the Roman Empire, there is no record of Christians attempting to organize any form of armed resistance.

Despite centuries of persecution and martyrdom, it was the Christian "doormats" and not the Roman Empire that survived.

Thank you for this JGarden:

This is especially interesting to me in light of what I have read regarding the origins of the Palestinian peoples. In one of Sid Roth's books he stated that there may have been as many as 400,000 Messianic Jews, followers of Cephas/Peter living in the Roman province of Judaea at the time of the Bar Kochba Revolt.

I have read that Rabbi Akiva was advocating that Judaea had to be cleansed of the Messianics once Simon Bar Kochba had firm control of the land. The Messianic Jewish community did not join in the Bar Kochba Revolt partly due to their pacifism....but partly I suppose due to the fact that they knew they would not be wanted in the new Jewish state in the event that Bar Kochba succeeded in getting rid of the Romans.

Tsvi Misinai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Background

Tsvi Misinai claims that the majority of the Palestinian peopleincluding those with Israeli citizenship or residency, known variously as Arab citizens of Israel, Arab Israelis, Israeli Arabs, including the Bedouin Arabs of Israelare descendants of the ancient Hebrews, as most of the world's Jewish ethnic divisions are.[6] Furthermore, he claims that at least half of them are quietly aware of this fact.[7]

According to Misinai, unlike the ancestors of the modern day Jews who were city dwellers to a large extent, the Hebrew ancestors of the Palestinians were rural dwellers, and were allowed to remain in the land of Israel to work the land and supply Rome with grain and olive oil.[5]

Misinai states the topic of Hebrew origin was spoken of openly by Palestinians until relatively recent history, much as the Egyptians or Lebanese are aware of their origin in the ancient Egyptians and Phoenicians respectively, even if the topic arouses the passions of those wishing to stress or de-emphasise it.

....

Proportion of Hebrew-descended Palestinians

A thinly disguised star of David on a doortop in Yatta, Southern Mount Hebron
Tsvi Misinai claims that nearly 90 per cent of the Palestinian people living in Israel proper and the occupied territories are of Hebrew descent (with the percentage among the population of the Gaza Strip being higher than 90 per cent),[6] but a greatly reduced percentage among Palestinian refugees living outside those areas.

Over these past 11 years my gifted Pentecostal wife has introduced me to a world that I had zero comprehension of in the past. I am wide open to this message given to a woman from Edmonton being a genuine message from God to all of us:

Mary A Burris:
"February 6, 2009

While spending time with the Lord He reminded me of Ali's funeral (Ali was my first husband who was murdered in 94/95) and how the Holy Spirit had me praying in tongues and in travail for the muslim people's salvation in Christ Jesus.

He assured me that He heard my prayer that day. Suddenly I became very excited in my spirit and asked the Holy Spirit

"What's going on?"

This is what He said:

You'll see... It'll be explosive when it happens. They will flock towards salvation as the hardness is lifted off of their hearts and the scales are removed from their eyes. They are a passionate people but their purpose has not yet been served. Upon the fulfillment of their role in the history of mankind there will be a flood of souls pouring into the kingdom of God for His glory. They have been scorned, they have been accused, but the ones who are pure in heart shall see God. When He reveals Himself to them in all His glory they will prostrate themselves before Him in a way they have never done before. When He opens the eyes of their understanding and unstops their ears to hear what His Holy Spirit is revealing the waves of tears of repentance will flood the ground they occupy and they will be purged once and for all time of the stains of their unbelief. The Lord is calling out for a pure and holy nation before God and He will do as He chooses and choose as He pleases and mankind will truly stand in awe of His mighty Majesty and Splendor as the precious souls are ushered into His kingdom.

GIVE HIM PRAISE AND GLORY!

DennisTate · May 2, 2012

In light of this information we are facing a new question....is the Messianic Jewish community of the year 2012 in a sense exempted from the virtual command toward pacifism that the first century church perhaps was under????!!!

The nation of Israel is in a sense a kingdom that is of the world....it certainly exists....and it is a fulfillment of many prophecies....so in my opinion a Messianic Jew of our time period should feel some freedom to fight on behalf of the continued existence of the State of Israel!

John 18:36

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

DennisTate · May 2, 2012

Then again....by fighting would we be messing up the fulfillment of that astonishing prophecy given through Mrs. Burris???

Hosea 1:7

But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

RETS · May 2, 2012

Dennis... Many will arm. Many will be prepared. There is a reason there are watchmen on the towers; a reason there are soldiers in the field. But this victory comes by the Lord, at His hand- And nothing can stop that.

His word does not return to Him void.

DennisTate · May 2, 2012

Catherineanne said:
That is a nice story; thanks for the link.

I suspect that PR is mistaken in his interpretation of God, however. God does not ration his love; he pours it out in abundance on all of creation. It is we who ration how much we are willing to accept from him.

But they are nice stories, and I thank you for your thoughtfulness in providing the link to them. I think if they actually came from God he would be able to find a rather more meaningful demonstration of virtue than managing the self control to not kick a kitten, though. In the great scheme of things that is not particularly impressive for anyone, in spite of what PR says.

Meanwhile, I have no idea why I have the life I have, but I trust God to know the reason, and for it to be a good one.

Thanks Catherineanne!

I have another cool quotation from PR for you:

Pastor Rick Joyner: "God has a different definition of peace and safety than we do," he said. "To be wounded in the fight is a great honor. It is by the Lord's stripes that we are healed, and it is through our stripes that we, too, are given the authority for healing. Once we are healed, we are given the power to heal others in the very place where the enemy wounded us.

Healing was a basic part of the Lord's ministry, and it is also a basic part of ours. One reason why the Lord allows bad things to happen to His people is so they can receive compassion for others, by which the power of healing operates. That is why the apostle Paul told of his beatings and stonings when his authority was questioned. Every wound and other bad thing that happens to us can be turned into the authority to do good." (Rick Joyner, The Vision, page 98)

DennisTate · May 2, 2012

RETS said:
Dennis... Many will arm. Many will be prepared. There is a reason there are watchmen on the towers; a reason there are soldiers in the field. But this victory comes by the Lord, at His hand- And nothing can stop that.

His word does not return to Him void.

A very good friend of mine, the same man who introduced me to the writings of Pastor Rick had some amazing dreams years ago that indicate that some phenomenal changes are about to be made in the way that the church accomplishes all that she is supposed to do!

My wife is from Quito, Ecuador. She is Pentecostal and got me interested in the evangelical and prophetic movement. As I was listening to Miracle Channel a few months back I heard that a group of pastors and charasmatic Catholic leaders from Cali, Colombia, at the time that it was the murder capitol of the world, got together, overcame the denominational differences...they prayed and fasted and even took gallons of olive oil up in a helicopter and dumped it on their city after fervent prayer.....Their city experienced TRANFORMATION...and actually was featured in one of the films by the name of Transfomation!

pennmark · Jun 11, 2012

ACougar said:
Were talking about a slap to the face, not a club to the head. So it's not telling you not to defend youself when your life is in danger, it's telling you to have faith in God and let him worry about Justice.

You're right. Turning the other cheek means not letting petty insults and small injuries spur us to violence. Jesus did not tell us to hold our necks out so someone could chop it off. (Pennmark thinks that because the USA is a Christian nation, this is why the USA does not blow to smithereens the impudent little snot countries that constantly insult us.

)

Catherineanne · Jun 12, 2012

DennisTate said:
Thanks Catherineanne!

I have another cool quotation from PR for you:

Pastor Rick Joyner: "God has a different definition of peace and safety than we do," he said. "To be wounded in the fight is a great honor. It is by the Lord's stripes that we are healed, and it is through our stripes that we, too, are given the authority for healing. Once we are healed, we are given the power to heal others in the very place where the enemy wounded us.

I don't like that one either, tbh.

Ever heard a parent say, 'This is going to hurt me more than it is going to hurt you?'

I have. It was a lie. God allows difficulties in our lives, certainly. But he is not an abusive parent.

Healing was a basic part of the Lord's ministry, and it is also a basic part of ours. One reason why the Lord allows bad things to happen to His people is so they can receive compassion for others, by which the power of healing operates. That is why the apostle Paul told of his beatings and stonings when his authority was questioned. Every wound and other bad thing that happens to us can be turned into the authority to do good." (Rick Joyner, The Vision, page 98)

God did not beat Paul. People did.

I think Mr Joyner is a bit mixed up in his thinking. This is what happens when you assume that God allowing things to happen, and working to bring them to our good, means the same as God doing those things.

God does not abuse anyone.

RETS · Jun 12, 2012

Catherineanne said:
God does not abuse anyone.

But He will allow it for future benefit- Ours, and later for others.

Catherineanne · Jun 12, 2012

RETS said:
But He will allow it for future benefit- Ours, and later for others.

That is what I said. Look again.

But allowing it is NOT the same thing as inflicting it.

RETS · Jun 12, 2012

Catherineanne said:
That is what I said. Look again.

But allowing it is NOT the same thing as inflicting it.

I agree! I just wanted to expand slightly on what you'd already said about Him allowing it, by pointing out that it is for our own benefit, but also for the benefit of others.

DennisTate · Jun 16, 2012

I just found the entire book The Vision by Rick Joyner available in PDF.

I think I read this over and over again five times over the past two years!

Rick Joyner and I have fallen into so many of the same problems over the years that what he was shown resonates with me big time!

TheVision The Final Quest the Call RickJoyner PDF

DennisTate · Aug 6, 2012

RETS said:
So, you advocate self-defense? I'm just curious about how you are applying the verse.

I personally am definitely advocating self defence!

I believe that we should make a serious attempt to deal with a situation in other ways but when an opponent makes their intentions clear.....that they want to behave in a manner comparable to Adolf Hitler, then the case of Mitt Romney stating plainly that he personally would back up Israel even if they took military action to prevent Iran from going nuclear, is in my opinion compatible with the New Testament message of Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua!!!!!????

I could be wrong though and often am!!!!

Actually, I've been attempting to get prayers and feedback on some alternative ideas here in this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7674780/
Flight of Christians from Mid-East Reaches Syria, What can you and I do?????

Am I squeezing far too much meaning out of this statement by King Solomon to believe that indeed, money can indeed be used to answer virtually any problem or question or issue on this earth??????

Ecclesiastes 10:19
A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all [things].
Am I also taking this statement recorded by Moshe/Moses too seriously that yes, human productive capability during a time of a common language is essentially beyond limit?????

Genesis 11:6
And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

I believe that massive modern world problems, even nuclear WWIII beginning in the Middle EAst, can be addressed through documentary, reality and semi-reality film projects that also act as an outreach to the world with the message of the gospel?!

Turn The Other Cheek? (Or, would Christ have us allow others to destroy us?)

UnamSanctam

Guest

Telling it like it is

Senior Veteran

Telling it like it is

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

Well-Known Member

Telling it like it is

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Telling it like it is

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Telling it like it is

Well-Known Member

Telling it like it is

Newbie

Newbie

Similar threads